What % of engines made are NOT prototypical?

I would suggest that if this question was placed on the 3 rail scale forum or the 2 rail forum there would be a very different response.  While there is no problem with anyone enjoying the hobby any way they like, there are several who post here including myself where scale fidelity is important.  100% accuracy is going to be impossible just by the nature of scaling something down to 1/48th of its original size, however very close accuracy is entirely possible.

I just received my 3rd Rail FP7s today in 2 rail and they are the finest plastic shelled diesel I have seen in the industry in any scale.  The best one prior to that were my 3rd Rail FL9s. The liveries are correct and the road specific details have been captured to level that is reasonable while keeping the cost competitive.  

If you want prototype fidelity, understanding that everyone does not, research your history and you will find models from all the major manufacturers that meet that desire.  It was scale length cars and scale locomotives that got me out of HO and into O and I have enjoyed every bit of it. 

Unless O gauge engines develop internal combustion power, ditch the third rail, have a driver inside etc, prototypical as a term is best left to " best resembles'. I find the term prototypical irksome as no model toy train is prototypical..it's called an illusion. What O model trains most could be called prototypical?

Passenger Train collector said it best and no less in one word. None. Anything else described as prototypical is just parsing or nit picking if taken to an obsessive degree. The stand off rule applies..stand back and see how much minute detail can be seen...it's all in the mind.

Just for clarification sake, I was really NOT referring to exactness in scale, rivets, placement of this or that in particular, but rather manufacturing engines in color schemes and road names that they never were associated with.

I do recognize that in the end these are toys, and there is some latitude on my layout to reflect that. But the notion of realism or that they look sort of like the same thing and they are in approximately the right size relationally is important to me.

Part of my escape in running these is seeing and imagining real trains. That is why silhouetted people in passenger car windows, as an example, both fan my imagination and put me off at the same time. Lots of things about train are like that. But all in all they are a GREAT improvement over what I had growing up in the 50's. Of course, some people will dispute that. Many flavors of ice cream here.

Good discussion and I thank everyone for their participation.

This is an interesting thread.  I agree with folks that locos ought to be made in at least one version fairly close to a RR/livery that actually owned them.  

But: there are few locos people will not buy, but many RRs they won't.  So maybe the Altoona, Rochester and Sugarland RR actually owned and ran Baldwin Perch-Nose PBY-27As, but Lionel and MTH both know only one person on earth buys models of that RR - whereas if you paint it in Warbonnet, or PRR five-stripe tons of folks will buy them even thought either RR never even considered getting Perch-nose diesels.

But they seem to carry it only so far: I know there is only one way I will get a Dreyfuss Hudson in UP Greyhound (And yes, when I get my PS3 Premier version I will indeed!  Think how good it will look alongside the N&W J I repainted!).

Some of the most beautiful locomotives, such as the Alco PA, were rejected by many railroads because they were difficult to maintain.  Alco sent one, painted in B&O colors, to be evaluated by B&O.  B&O sent it back.  O Gauge manufacturers have made B&O Alco PA's, Northern Pacific Alco PA's, Canadian Pacific Alco PA's and so on.  From the standpoint of esthetics, maybe every railroad should have used Alco PA's.  From the standpoint of utility and practicality, only certain railroads had the capacity to cope with the finicky Alco PA prime mover.  The Alco FA was much more popular.  Many railroads used F units with passenger cars.  Other railroads used E units.  These decisions were based on practicality or what worked better on what terrain with what rolling stock for that railroad's purposes.

The thing about model trains is that, even in the case of prototypes that were briefly or rarely or almost never used, the littler versions generally run better than the rare and technically limited prototypes.  Wouldn't it be interesting if model trains had to have the same problems, quirks, design flaws, and unusual breakdowns that some prototypes had?

To some extent, every layout is a fantasy world, wherein we get to be the CEO and decide which motive power we want to use.  Maybe B&O should have bought the Alco PA's.  Maybe we can fix that "mistake" in our own worlds, simply because our units don't have the operational (maintenance, cost, etc.) limits of the real ones.  We can do as we please, without the usual restraints faced by railroad executives and stockholders.

Absolutely!  Well said.

Came across this article a few days ago, kinda apropos:

Rivet Counter

Lifes short, buy what you like and run what you want!

Jerry

An accurate O Scale layout would have to be 1/48 the size of the prototype geography it represents.  How big would a layout have to be to represent even Harrisburg, PA?  Bigger than my townhouse basement?  Qua layout, it's not the one with the most trains who wins; it's the one with the biggest (humongous) basement.

But I must repeat that what the OP had in mind (he stated it perfectly) was match-ups of RR paint schemes with equipment actually used on those railroads.  I am unsuccessfully trying to imagine a Chicago and Alton Centipede.  Of course, even the PRR ended up not wanting the darn things.

Lee can and has done whatever he wants with his toys.  In real life, we get pushed around a lot.  When it comes to our layouts, we are gods or demigods.  Heck, maybe I should kit-bash a First Church of Gordon Z.  We have to show those 1/48 plastic folks who's boss.  Lee controls Columbo, but Columbo has no idea what Lee is up to.  Of course, following Lee's imagination is quite the ride!

I'm a big fan of Christmas themed traditional sized trains.

Pretty much all of them are not prototypical and trains that never were.

I enjoy them and I imagine a few other folks do as well since Lionel produces a small yearly Christmas catalog.

I misinterpreted the original post, as I imagine others did.  I'm relatively confident that some O gauge locomotives have been produced with prototypically faithful paint schemes. However, with few exceptions, manufacturers also have to apply different (non-prototypical) paint schemes to many or all of these same locomotives to warrant manufacturing them in the first place.  It's pretty much up to the buyer to research and know what he or she is getting.

By the way, "rivet counter" is not a literal term, although I have been known to actually count rivets.  It is just a polite term describing a railroad modeler who is a bit more picky than most.  I would call the folks who have to have passenger car windows exactly like the real thing "rivet counters".

Rivets have not gone out of style.  Their use on locomotives is limited by welding technology, but even the very latest jetliners are riveted together.

I hear you. I suppose you are saying  by my  purchasing these train I am supporting a too high price structure? It has taken me to my 60's to really be able to have the time, room, and $$ money $$ for this hobby. At that I still must spend carefully. But, toys or not, I consider O gauge trains, beyond a starter set, primarily an adult hobby and feel it is worth the money spent. I have no direct control over where these things are made. Off of the OP but I thought I'd offer the courtesy of a response. Again, thanks to many for your responses.

Spot on Mike.

But your other points are well noted.  And I respect that.

I just had to say it.  Because it has bothered me for while, I've watch this hobby morph into what in general America has become, where they now have made what jobs are left needing a college education.  (all by design)

Point being, average Joe is getting push out from the hobby.  It's never really been a cheap hobby to begin with.  But when we push the manufactures for all this accuracy we continue to push the prices up.

And I suppose what really confuses me is if one is looking for prototypical accuracy why would they want to be operating on 3 rail track to begin with.

I've also wondered that!

If they want something to be as accurate as possible why aren't they full blown 2 rail o scale? This used to be a hobby of builders and bashers, people who took the time to build what they wanted or modified something to be more realistic, now everyone wants it now and they want someone else to build it for them and they don't seem to care about the cost to them or others or they complain that such and such model costs way too much or they complain that so and so doesn't make a particular model they want even tho there's only 4 or 5 people out there who want one. 

How many times do we see a post about someone getting tired of waiting for Lionel or MTH to make a particular model or paint job?

How long do you plan on waiting? You'll wait years for Lionel to make one when you could have built one by now. Why not roll up your sleeves and dig out the old parts box and scratch build one? Sure you might not have the skills now but no one ever was born with them, we learned as we went along and you will no longer have to wait for Lionel to do it, plus you'll have something that nobody else has.

Jerry

Agree about the expense of O gauge. I started getting more into N scale primarily because it's 1/4-1/3 the price. Also I can 2 as many trains in a fraction of the space which is a real consideration for those of us who don't have a basement or garage at their disposal. I've also discovered there's a greater variety of stuff in N scale. I'm finding engines in N scale for railroads I didn't even know existed which is kind of fun. At the end of the day every scale has their pros and cons. 

Realizing, of course, that the oversize couplers, the oversize flanges, the third rail, the tight corners, plus other considerations all make our hi-rail trains un-scale, I still try to go with the correct paint schemes for the right eras, the correct length cars and scale locomotives, to try and give me the impression of the way things once looked.  I do envy the work of the two rail guys that have lots of room for 200+ diameter curves, long switches and small authentic rail, but I just am not talented enough to  duplicate their work.  But, in my own little way, I do try to stick with the correct paint schemes, engine choices, car types, related scenery items and all, that kind of go together and that pleases me.

Paul Fischer

Kato #1 in N-scale

(they saved the scale)

And they run like a Swiss watch..

Be patient analog sound is coming later this year.   They are working out the bugs now.  It's far superior then ever trying to put sound under the hood in N-scale.   And very practical for N-scale.  

Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2pXndpVTe4

Dern!  From what is said above I have to lobby all the people attending York, to

get the numbers up above 4 or 5 (including me), that they are dying to own a

Little River 2-4-4-2 in three rail?  And this after the prototype model for a McKeen

car was displayed by MTH at York, and did not generate enough preorders to go into production?  Not a snowball's chance that will happen....there are just too many things you have to scratchbuild... no time.  And it is now hard to find trucks for freight

cars in three rail, must less components for powered models.

 Accuracy on 3 rails is akin to a tuxedo with sneakers.

It is indeed VALID.  All the rest of it doesn't really matter.

No one will ever notice your bloomberg trucks your Nathan 5 chime horn or whether the Pennsylvania railroad ever had a GG1 painted blue.

But even the kids will notice 3 rails.

Model railroad track like the prototype is indeed the cart behind the horse.

And in model railroading vs. toy train operation the model starts at the tracks.

And we get around that explanation by telling the kids and even the adults we are not model railroaders, we are toy train operators.

I for one would be embarrassed to ever tell someone I spent X amount of dollars on prototypical accuracy in a Locomotive only to have it operate as a toy train on 3 rails.

This is why I too keep another scale in the back of my mind.

For now however I do enjoy my toy trains.

Actually I don't have a problem with that...

Jerry

Well I guess that settles that, can't argue with that masterful, eloquent treatise!

Jerry

There are different kinds of non-prototypical.

1) Wrong Paint scheme

2) Wrong dimensions of body.

3) wrong style of trucks.

4) Wrong road number.

Andrew

This would be easier to determine if the list stuck to true O Scale proportioned locomotives.

Exclude the compressed models like the Lionel Traditional O Gauge GP9 diesel and the Williams SD45.

Andrew

I don't.

The point is while you may be able to fool yourself or even con yourself anyone including the kids can spot it.

And if you are ever at a train show with a layout what would you say ?

Would you go off on another spiel as you have with Jerry above about your trains are not better than mine, which is not what anyone is saying here, at least I'm not saying it.

The whole jest of this mental exercise was and is on my part the understanding that trying to justify the added realism on 3 rails doesn't compute in my way of thinking and certainly not worth the cost or effort.

Because you will never achieve it running on 3 rails, it will always naw at you in the back of your mind.  And anyone into 3 rail toy trains will admit it has.

You learn to accept it, but more importantly come to understand it's perfectly OK if you can accept you are not a model railroader, you are a toy train operator.

And finally let this thought not escape some, all this crap about wanting prototypical accuracy has turn this hobby into a money pit that has not only driven people out of it has also turned some off.

My gut instinct is that some and possibly even you are to concern about being view as a man still playing with toys.  Why would you care.

Because even in the other scales some will always view us as men playing with toys no matter how prototypical we are.  There are train people in this world and there are non-train people.  Some get it while most don't.

At last count there are still roughly less then 200,000 people at least in America involved in this hobby and the numbers haven't change much over the years.   And if we took a comparison by per capita the model train/toy train's hey day was 1953. 

The beauty of this hobby is it offers and has something for everyone.

quote:

My gut instinct is that some and possibly even you are to concern about being view as a man still playing with toys. 

IMHO, it doesn't matter how accurate or well detailed the trains might be, or whether there are two or three rails, or what gauge..... we are still playing with toys.
I feel that there is nothing wrong with that, and I am adult enough to admit it.

Michael you brought up a good question, but some how this thread turned in another direction all together. I have no idea what percentage of trains are prototypical.

Prototypical is relative to the individual hobbyist. I believe you and I share a similar idea for what is prototypical and what is not. For me prototypical is a locomotive that is close to what the real railroad used in as far as paint schemes and the real locomotive model was on their roster.

Having said that I have to also say if it does not meet my criteria for "prototypical" it does not mean I won't buy it any way. My biggest problem is I have seldom seen a locomotive I did not like, In any scale, especially diesels.

I would like to focus on the things we have in common rather then to nit-pick our differences. For the most part we are all adults playing with toys and to see such arguments erupt over details baffles me.

I love this hobby too!

The 3rd rail makes life soooo much easier. Not really the crux of my OP.

What Bruette said! "For me prototypical is a locomotive that is close to what the real railroad used in as far as paint schemes and the real locomotive model was on their roster."

People sure are wildly obsessed over that third rail like somehow if you concentrate and wish hard enough it will just disappear.  It's there, I like it because it reminds me I am still a grown man getting to play with toys.

My feelings are that whatever your angle to this hobby is, that is great as long as you are having fun.  I appreciate the guys who push for prototypical fidelity like Hot Water and many others, they enjoy what they do and pushing that as hard as they can while still in a three rail environment is pretty cool.  This is the epitome of art which is pushing your own creative environment how you want it then sitting back and enjoying the result.

Well, I now understand this thread.  It's simple, boiling down to only two points.  No matter who is talking:

- My trains are good.  Yousr stink.

- I'm right.  You're wrong.

I love it when things are simple to understand. 

quote:

Well, I now understand this thread.  It's simple, boiling down to only two points.  No matter who is talking:

- My trains are good.  Yousr stink.

- I'm right.  You're wrong.

How about:

I do what I want with my trains, and I don't care what you do with your trains?

Never my intent. There have been a lot of good answers here and good discussion as well. I don't see this.

i thought the question concerned prototype trains now it's 2r vs 3r, other scales etc. have we forgotten this is a hobby something we do for enjoyment pleasure to fulfill our creative desires. i remember when walthers came out with penn central steam loco decals people were incensed... i showed them(walthers) i didn't  buy any.  my feeling if you want a pc steamer or a sp shark buy it enjoy it we are here for a short time why not just enjoy ourselves with what we like not someone's criteria for whats right or wrong.

now on the other hand a 69 nickey 427 camaro  a 70 ss454 chevelle  and  corvette for a daily driver are the only vehicles one should own.....  just kidding.....

 enjoy what you like don't worry what someone else likes or wants.

Bottom line, there are those who love the SP "Daylight" scheme and don't care what it's painted on. The manufacturers know this, so they help their bottom line by doing things like these Sharks. If you don't like it, don't buy them.

The only thing that really irked me is when MTH did the DL-109's as DL-109/DL-110 (A/B) sets, including the New Haven. When NH should have been a DL-109/DL-109 (A/A) set since they never owned any DL-110's.

I've re-read all of my posts here and I didn't say that either don't know where he got that impression.

Jerry

Yes! The Titanic, in Earth Orbit