I understood what Tex was saying and I believe you misread Frank. He was in fact pointing out the flawed mentality of modellers who don't meet specific high standards needing to be "relegated" to the main forum.
I totally get where TexasSP is coming from and embrace his thought process.
The mere attempt at Scale Realism is what is important. Any attempt at Scale Realism is an attempt at "improving upon" the Traditional Toy Train aspect of our hobby.
Note: I use the phrase "improving upon" but there is nothing at all wrong or inferior with traditional or classic toy trains. The choice is strictly personal in nature and I firmly believe part of the allure of this hobby is that you can go in whatever direction you enjoy most.
Originally Posted by TexasSP:
Originally Posted by Frank53:
Originally Posted by TexasSP:
I would suggest that for all those saying otherwise, put up your greatest attempt at scale realism next to the prototype and let us pick it apart. If it doesn't pass muster then by your own definitions you must be relegated to the O27 forum, correct?
No offense intended Tex, but I think the last couple of words of your post are telling:
"relegated to the o27 forum"
Where what - the unworthy all hang out and long for a moment to bask in the eternal glow of the enlightened scale crowd?
My point was to strike out against the elitist mentality, not to embrace. By the guidelines given, I would think all who attempt scale realism are worthy, whether achieved or not. My last line was meant as a strike against the elite who think their work is so worthy while others is not. I know that we could take any of the elite's work and find issues with it.
My suggestion was aimed at all the naysayers who suggest that Nicks posts belong in the toy train forum.
When it comes to posting layout/modeling photos, I prefer that there be less forums rather than more. Narrowing of forums (or minds), or arbitrarily imposing an artificial hierarchy is generally not a good thing. I can always get ideas from all types of approaches to this hobby.
I like to post photos on the traditional 3 rail Weekly Photo Fun. No one has kicked me off it yet, despite my choice of modeling style.
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I should have put that phrase in quotes, so as to attribute it to others, and not myself.
How about one forum to cover everyone's nut. "Electric Train Forum".
(Whoops, then there will have to be a sub-forum for the wind-up guys.)
Doug
Originally Posted by postmastermc:
How about one forum to cover everyone's nut. "Electric Train Forum".
(Whoops, then there will have to be a sub-forum for the wind-up guys.)
Doug
TMCC and DCC are electronic.......LOL this is a never end story......
AG.
I thought this forum was created in an effort to discuss 3 rail scale trains without being interrupted by the "they're just toys," crowd. It looks like things got pretty mixed up pretty quickly.
Originally Posted by christopher N&W:
I thought this forum was created in an effort to discuss 3 rail scale trains without being interrupted by the "they're just toys," crowd. It looks like things got pretty mixed up pretty quickly.
I don't think it has been Christopher; the issue seems to be more that there's a breakdown in communication on where the lines and standards are drawn for participation on this forum.
My thought is if you have an 0 scale train then post it or post about it. There is no need for distinguishing lines. Just keep the conversation focused on scale models and the rest will work itself out.
Amen to that 
Originally Posted by christopher N&W:
I thought this forum was created in an effort to discuss 3 rail scale trains without being interrupted by the "they're just toys," crowd. It looks like things got pretty mixed up pretty quickly.
I think it was the other way around, the scale guys were perceived as looking down on anything other than scale as toys.
The way I see it there's :
O scale, 2 rails with scale detailing and scenery as accurately as possible.
3 rail Scale, same as above but running on 3 rail track that is as close to accurately looking track as possible.
Hi-Rail, similar to 3 Rail scale but taking liberties with pilots, couplers, accessories, track type, scenery, etc.
It shouldn't matter what forum you post your pictures on but as with anything we humans get involved in there will inevitably will be someone who points out either politely or impolitely that you are in the wrong forum. I see it as more of a chance for some of us to see something and try to incorporate it into our layout some how even if it means bending reality a bit.
For those of us who don't model O scale we shouldn't tell the scale guys "They're only toys!" any more than they should tell us "Your's are just toys!" something which both sides have been guilty of at times.
Jerry
I recall the origin and promoters of this 3RS section pretty well.
In a recent discussion, most of the scale minded folks were all about NOT telling other people their trains are toys. If anyone is concerned about their trains being called toys, DON'T blame the scale folks.
I find it interesting that some think scale layouts is taking it to a higher standard than traditional layouts. To me these are two entirely different aspects of the hobby; they reflect what the person enjoys. To me this 3RS forum is for those that want as much realism as possible working with the constraints of three rails, and discussions and pictures in this forum should reflect a person’s effort to that end. Striving for realism is not work, it is a challenge that many enjoy and who want to share their experiences with other likeminded folks. An out of the box MTH/Lionel/3rd Rail engine sitting on track fastened to bare wood may be the start of a great 3RS layout, but I do not think it is something that should be posted here. Asking for pictures of similar engines that have been weathered to help get an idea on how to do it is what this forum should be about.
I read the 3RS forum for ideas. I believe I am solidly Hi-Rail, and I have not had any original ideas that fits this forum’s focus so I haven’t posted here. I want items on my layout to be close to 1:48 so they look right together, and I want the graphics to be very close to the prototype for my era. I like rivets, but I don’t count them. I don’t own SP Daylights to run on my eastern themed layout, but I enjoy the traditional sized Daylight that a friend brings over. I like scale length cars because they just look good, but most of my passenger cars are 18/19 inch cars because they fit better on the layout. I am ballasting my Gargraves track. I have no intension of modifying or weathering my trains, and I do lash-ups. What I like with this hobby I consider to be between the 3-Rail O27 and Traditional O Gauge forum and this 3-Rail Scale forum. So, I read both. I do not consider my layout a higher standard than a traditional layout, or a lower standard than a 3RS layout. They are all different aspects of a great hobby. I also respect those on this forum who want to refer to their trains and layout as models; to me that is an appropriate term for their aspect of the hobby.
Ron
I think people confuse what the meaning of "higher level" is. I think of higher level as a higher level of modeling, NOT a higher pursuit in general in the hobby. A higher level of modeling IS measurable in detail and accuracy, while a higher pursuit of the hobby is NOT measurable.
I love mpc era trains and always have. I don't see that pursuit as being any lesser but most MPC items don't hold up well as models. Likewise, I have a friend who is building a tremendous proto 48 layout. He also has a collection of Postwar items that would be the envy of many.
Originally Posted by christopher N&W:
I think people confuse what the meaning of "higher level" is. I think of higher level as a higher level of modeling, NOT a higher pursuit in general in the hobby. A higher level of modeling IS measurable in detail and accuracy, while a higher pursuit of the hobby is NOT measurable.
I love mpc era trains and always have. I don't see that pursuit as being any lesser but most MPC items don't hold up well as models. Likewise, I have a friend who is building a tremendous proto 48 layout. He also has a collection of Postwar items that would be the envy of many.
Excellent points. And just as a friendly observation (as opposed to a serious comment on the guts of the 3RS discussion), one of the longest, most spirited and just plain fun threads here in the last year or so was on MPC-era trains.
For what many might call the red-headed step-child of the toy/model train world, that was some enthusiasm!
Originally Posted by Allan Miller:
This discussion--and it is a worthwhile one--exemplifies why I have long preferred the term "Hi-Rail" over any other sub-category as applied to the 3-rail hobby. To my way of thinking, there really is no such thing as "3-rail Scale" because (1) you are using 3-rail track to begin with, and (2) the track itself is not to scale.
And where, exactly, is the dividing line, for lack of a better term, between a nicely done 3-rail layout and the layout considered to be 3-Rail Scale? Who is to make that determination, and what qualifies that individual to do so? Are the distinctions universally understood and accepted (obviously not)?
Over many years I have seen, in person or in photos and videos, many hundreds of O gauge layouts, and I can rather quickly distinguish a toy train layout from what I personally choose to classify as a Hi-Rail layout. But if you ask me to separate the 3-Rail Scale layouts from among the ranks of beautifully executed Hi-Rail layouts, I wouldn't even attempt to do so. Most importantly, it doesn't matter to me, but there's also the matter of blurred distinctions when it comes to separating 3-Rail Scale from Hi-Rail. When I see/view a layout I enjoy, it stands on its own merits, be it a toy train layout or something where the builder has endeavored to capture the essence of the prototype.
I very much dislike the divisiveness some have tried to introduce into the 3-rail segment of the hobby. I don't believe anyone really benefits from shoehorning sub-categories into what has traditionally been the most accepting, inclusive, and fun-filled segment of model-railroading. And the result of such attempts is fairly evident here. Nobody should ever have to question where he or she falls on the spectrum of O gauge that ranges from a loop of track on the floor to a world-class modeling effort that can't easily be distinguished from the prototype in photos.
The great Lionel postwar factory I would consider a "High Rail" layout if Lionel ran scale locomotives and cars over it. Considering the time period, the layout would have been considered 3RS if scale equipment was placed on it.
Also, most of our stuff is powered by center rail AC. No live steam. No diesel electrics. Very little overhead or outside third rail, epending on what is being modeled.
