I did not try the universal remote, after all, we were specifically interested in how the BT worked with a smart phone as that's the method that's supposed to allow us to have a remote anytime we need one. 
carsntrains posted:"RIGHT ON! 33 feet is about it or even a stretch! The truth is the majority of us train folks dont have a 66 foot long layout! Or even a 44 foot long layout! AND we can hope for a step up in the outputs and receivers !!! Mine works great on my 17x11. Blue tooth via tablet and universal remote. Although I only have one BT engine. Ive tried it and I like it! I also enjoy the adjustments in volume and pitch that the BT app has. Momentum also! I suggest watching Eric's Trains last video on the Santa Fe set too! You can see all of this in action!
I still prefer the universal remote so I can run 3 engines at once.
Jim
Have been to an around the room 31 X 31 layout with a master closet in the center and the LC remote looses contact with the engine as it travels around the layout if you are out of sight, especially if located in one of the corners. (They were running the new Polar Express if that makes any difference.)
For me running it with TMCC rather than the provided remote would have made it more fun. Everyone thought the "Polar Express, All Aboard, Tickets" announcement were cool (the "I'm the King Of The North Pole" which seems to repeat over, and over, and over, not so much 
" How about a way to select the announcement you desire regardless of control device?
gunrunnerjohn posted:I did not try the universal remote, after all, we were specifically interested in how the BT worked with a smart phone as that's the method that's supposed to allow us to have a remote anytime we need one.
HMMM so yall weren't interested in seeing if either option would work. Only the app. I understand.
Bobby D interesting story. And yes 31x31 with an obstruction in the middle would be tough for it. I take it you can choose what crew talk is played with TMCC.. ??
And to a previous question. Why did Lionel put TMCC ability in the LC+2.0? They are trying to move forward with new to them technology without offending the folks using their aging technology. Its been discussed on notch 6 and or Lionel on Facebook.
It will be interesting to see what happens. I was sure Lionel was going to further their DC power lineup this year .. But they didn't .. But I do find the adjustable DC power pack that comes with the PE trolley interesting. I wonder how many watts it is?
I'd say its a big job trying to keep the conventional folks and the TMCC/Legacy folks happy while they develop the technology to replace it.
Jim
carsntrains posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:I did not try the universal remote, after all, we were specifically interested in how the BT worked with a smart phone as that's the method that's supposed to allow us to have a remote anytime we need one.
HMMM so yall weren't interested in seeing if either option would work. Only the app. I understand.
I was interested in seeing if the BT from various devices had similar issues to mine with a single BT engine and phone. But yes, since the major sales pitch with BT is you can "run it with any smartphone", we wanted to test that capability. It probably also figured into the testing that nobody had a Universal Remote with them that night.
And to a previous question. Why did Lionel put TMCC ability in the LC+2.0? They are trying to move forward with new to them technology without offending the folks using their aging technology. Its been discussed on notch 6 and or Lionel on Facebook.
Just maybe it's also technology that has stood the test of time and works very well.
It will be interesting to see what happens. I was sure Lionel was going to further their DC power lineup this year .. But they didn't .. But I do find the adjustable DC power pack that comes with the PE trolley interesting. I wonder how many watts it is?
What's so great about DC power that we'd be dying to have it power our trains?
I'd say its a big job trying to keep the conventional folks and the TMCC/Legacy folks happy while they develop the technology to replace it.
I predict I'll be on the other side of the grass before Lionel replaces Legacy with BT.
FYI, DCC uses AC track power not DC. So like GRJ says, not sure the motivation to move to DC.
gunrunnerjohn posted:carsntrains posted:I was sure Lionel was going to further their DC power lineup this year .. But they didn't .. But I do find the adjustable DC power pack that comes with the PE trolley interesting. I wonder how many watts it is?
What's so great about DC power that we'd be dying to have it power our trains?
@gunrunnerjohn - I would suggest we stop feeding the trolls, especially about their DC hangup
Uh all modern can motored locomotives run on DC. The boards in the locomotive turn AC current into DC via a rectifier on the board, so your locomotives are running on DC anyway. Plus AC has better distance transmission properties than DC, hence why it's used in your house.
Lou1985 posted:Uh all modern can motored locomotives run on DC. The boards in the locomotive turn AC current into DC via a rectifier on the board, so your locomotives are running on DC anyway. Plus AC has better distance transmission properties than DC, hence why it's used in your house.
Uh, you better test that theory before you espouse it here. The TMCC locomotives, including can motored locomotives, use triacs to drive the motors, if you feed them DC, you'll have a major problem. Triacs are also used on the R2LC and even the Legacy R4LC to control lights, couplers, and smoke. Feed them DC, and all that stuff stops working.
Bottom line is none of those will run on DC.
Lou1985 posted:Uh all modern can motored locomotives run on DC. The boards in the locomotive turn AC current into DC via a rectifier on the board, so your locomotives are running on DC anyway. Plus AC has better distance transmission properties than DC, hence why it's used in your house.
Yes, many modern locomotives make use of can motors operated on rectified DC, but a quick scour over the 2019 Big Book and its 3 rail O Gauge offerings has many examples where DC on the Rails/Accessory Bus isn't ideal along with giving up command control in it entirety and has all be discussed here:
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...71#83227312740675371
Bottom line, not everything in the latest catalog is DC compatible or is fully functional in a 100% Lionel DC environment, but will run on a 100% Lionel AC environment with all features enabled.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Lou1985 posted:Uh all modern can motored locomotives run on DC. The boards in the locomotive turn AC current into DC via a rectifier on the board, so your locomotives are running on DC anyway. Plus AC has better distance transmission properties than DC, hence why it's used in your house.
Uh, you better test that theory before you espouse it here. The TMCC locomotives, including can motored locomotives, use triacs to drive the motors, if you feed them DC, you'll have a major problem. Triacs are also used on the R2LC and even the Legacy R4LC to control lights, couplers, and smoke. Feed them DC, and all that stuff stops working.
Bottom line is none of those will run on DC.
I said the motors run on DC that is rectified by the boards from AC track voltage. So the locomotive is running on DC 😁.
What's the point of have DC track voltage if the locomotives are already running on DC, provided by the board?
bmoran4 posted:Lou1985 posted:Uh all modern can motored locomotives run on DC. The boards in the locomotive turn AC current into DC via a rectifier on the board, so your locomotives are running on DC anyway. Plus AC has better distance transmission properties than DC, hence why it's used in your house.
Yes, many modern locomotives make use of can motors operated on rectified DC, but a quick scour over the 2019 Big Book and its 3 rail O Gauge offerings has many examples where DC on the Rails/Accessory Bus isn't ideal along with giving up command control in it entirety and has all be discussed here:
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...71#83227312740675371
Bottom line, not everything in the latest catalog is DC compatible or is fully functional in a 100% Lionel DC environment, but will run on a 100% Lionel AC environment with all features enabled.
Since the motors are already operating on DC what's the point of switching track power to DC?
Lou1985 posted:I said the motors run on DC that is rectified by the boards from AC track voltage. So the locomotive is running on DC 😁.
No, you said the locomotive runs on DC. If I rip out all the electronics and run the motors on track DC, I think I can safely say I've just converted it from a modern locomotive to a soundless conventional only runner.
Lou1985 posted:What's the point of have DC track voltage if the locomotives are already running on DC, provided by the board?
No reason at all to have DC track voltage, that's why I run with AC. 
gunrunnerjohn posted:Lou1985 posted:I said the motors run on DC that is rectified by the boards from AC track voltage. So the locomotive is running on DC 😁.
No, you said the locomotive runs on DC. If I rip out all the electronics and run the motors on track DC, I think I can safely say I've just converted it from a modern locomotive to a soundless conventional only runner.
Lou1985 posted:What's the point of have DC track voltage if the locomotives are already running on DC, provided by the board?No reason at all to have DC track voltage, that's why I run with AC.
Can motored locomotives do technically run on DC, rectified by the board from AC. Feed one of the can motors straight AC track voltage, it won't go very far, but the motors will run great on DC voltage supplied by the board (which converts AC voltage to DC to operate the motors). But now we're both getting pedantic about this .
The whole point I was making is that track DC voltage is unnecessary. The boards in the locomotives already turn AC track voltage into DC current to run the locomotive's motors. Converting everything to DC track power isn't going to change locomotive performance one bit, since the motors are already operating on DC current.
Well, I'm confused! You sure seemed to be arguing for DC on the rails, now you're switching horses and going to AC? In that case, we're in agreement, job done.
gunrunnerjohn posted:No, you said the locomotive runs on DC. If I rip out all the electronics and run the motors on track DC, I think I can safely say I've just converted it from a modern locomotive to a soundless conventional only runner.
NOW, we're making progress!
palallin posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:No, you said the locomotive runs on DC. If I rip out all the electronics and run the motors on track DC, I think I can safely say I've just converted it from a modern locomotive to a soundless conventional only runner.
NOW, we're making progress!
Whatever floats your boat.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Well, I'm confused! You sure seemed to be arguing for DC on the rails, now you're switching horses and going to AC? In that case, we're in agreement, job done.
I think our (pardon the pun) signals got crossed . We were both arguing the whole time that DC track power made no sense.
Dave,
I like the idea of direct communication from the remote to engine. Simpler than having base stations.
Part of bluetooth is the low level communication prototcol. But also they do publish higher level application specs as well. Bluetooth Audio and Bluetooth Phone are ones folks are probably already familiar with. What would be great is a standard Bluetooth Train Control protocol like those above.
-Bill
Bill, having a much longer range version of BT would be a great idea, it's kind of a bummer they decided to go with the wimpy standard that has no range!
bmoran4 posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:carsntrains posted:I was sure Lionel was going to further their DC power lineup this year .. But they didn't .. But I do find the adjustable DC power pack that comes with the PE trolley interesting. I wonder how many watts it is?
What's so great about DC power that we'd be dying to have it power our trains?
@gunrunnerjohn - I would suggest we stop feeding the trolls, especially about their DC hangup
Bmoran you better quit feeding Lionel then! They are the ones that told me I could double if not triple the life of my LC, LC+, and soon to own LC+2.0 engines by running them on DC. But hey what would Lionel know about the engines they build and service.
I called Lionel to buy a ZW-L and they told me not to buy it. To instead invest in a good DC power source. At the time they didn't have any 72w units in stock. But said I may want a larger unit than the 72w units when they restock them. My local Lionel repair facility echoed that sentiment. Stating the CAPACITOR and BRIDGE RECTIFIER were the #1 and #2 reason for failure.
I think the rectifier should be removed and run them 100% on DC. But they say the rectifier does nothing and the capacitor has little work to do when running on DC. Again what would Lionel and a Lionel service center know about Lionel trains? : )
Like I should have said to start with. IF I had invested the time and energy into TMCC/Legacy and then figured out it was obsolete I would be upset too! Just like the steam guys were when diesels came about. And the phone book folks felt when Google made them obsolete. Remember BT in model trains is in its infancy. DCC in general has been around in analog form since the 40's. (says google) lol
Jim
carsntrains posted:Bmoran you better quit feeding Lionel then! They are the ones that told me I could double if not triple the life of my LC, LC+, and soon to own LC+2.0 engines by running them on DC. But hey what would Lionel know about the engines they build and service.
Who EXACTLY told you this? I always love the <xyz> told me "bla bla bla". Was this an official statement of Lionel's position on the topic, or some guy that just likes DC stated his opinion?
Insert appropriate company name for <xyz>
I called Lionel to buy a ZW-L and they told me not to buy it. To instead invest in a good DC power source. At the time they didn't have any 72w units in stock. But said I may want a larger unit than the 72w units when they restock them.
I will venture a guess if management finds out who is telling callers not to buy their flagship expensive transformer, they'll be looking for a new job! Who exactly is making such recommendations, this certainly rings like a fairy tale!
My local Lionel repair facility echoed that sentiment. Stating the CAPACITOR and BRIDGE RECTIFIER were the #1 and #2 reason for failure.
In all the locomotives I've serviced, and that's been a bunch, I haven't seen failures of either of those components represented significantly more than many other components.
I think the rectifier should be removed and run them 100% on DC. But they say the rectifier does nothing and the capacitor has little work to do when running on DC. Again what would Lionel and a Lionel service center know about Lionel trains? : )
Well, the rectifier is passing the same amount of current when running on DC as it is running on AC, so that statement is clearly false. In truth, given most have a full-wave rectifier, parts of the bridge are actually carrying twice the average current they would running AC as half the bridge isn't being used at all. As for what the service guy might know about the electronics, that varies widely. I spent my life designing and building electronics, including high reliability products, I think I likely know a bit more than the average guy servicing Lionel trains about component reliability and MTBF.
Like I should have said to start with. IF I had invested the time and energy into TMCC/Legacy and then figured out it was obsolete I would be upset too! Just like the steam guys were when diesels came about. And the phone book folks felt when Google made them obsolete. Remember BT in model trains is in its infancy. DCC in general has been around in analog form since the 40's. (says google) lol
That's actually pretty laughable. The successor has to be better than the previous product in order for me to consider the first obsolete. I've seen zero evidence that running on DC is going to be a better user experience, even if my "obsolete" and magnificient Legacy steamers are, in your mind, obsolete.
One of the key points for Lionel pushing for DC is it's cheaper to make a DC supply than an AC supply. Leaving out the AC power supply components also makes the devices cheaper, something that I'm sure the bean counters are looking at for future products when they get all the sheep to adopt DC track power.
Note that all the DC compatible products are the low end products with limited feature sets, and not the high end Legacy products.
Over and out.
Company name. Lionel LLC. I will not discuss the MULTIPLE folks there that I have discussed this with. But they are more than popular people. They say the rectifier does nothing when it is passing DC. And the capacitor is doing nearly nothing when passing DC.
Hey its alright GNJ. I know what they have told me in numerous conversations. If you choose not to believe me fine. We all have that right. And yes it is the lower end products .. You know.. The ones that they actually make money on? And like I said. The LC technology is in its infancy at Lionel. If you would bother yourself with watching some notch 6 and Lionel FB live events you may see what I'm talking about. The successor will be better than TMCC and DCC. They BT tech grew by leaps and bounds in LC+2.0.
Hope yall have and great day and good luck with your layout John. Maybe ask Mike Reagan about that stuff.
I enjoy my lower end products.
Jim
It's important to understand that the fundamental technical difference between TMCC/Legacy and any of the direct controller to loco systems which includes LC, bluetooth, 915MHZ and 2.4GHZ is that TMCC uses a two step track signal delivery system with the second leg operating at a very low frequency. By design and choice, you can provide any amount of operational features in any of the direct systems. An obvious advantage for the direct systems is the freedom from track related issues, which have been repeatedly reported. An obvious thought is why would the largest OGauge manufacturer invest heavily in LC and bluetooth if it didn't see this as the future?
BOB WALKER posted:An obvious thought is why would the largest OGauge manufacturer invest heavily in LC and bluetooth if it didn't see this as the future?
And why would they add the "notoriously problematic" TMCC system to the "already perfect" LC and Bluetooth system?
H1000 posted:BOB WALKER posted:An obvious thought is why would the largest OGauge manufacturer invest heavily in LC and bluetooth if it didn't see this as the future?
And why would they add the "notoriously problematic" TMCC system to the "already perfect" LC and Bluetooth system?
To try to keep you TMCC guys from crying. ?? And that is a direct quote from a recent podcast. I will not state the name of the funny guy that said it. LOL I will salute Lionel for trying to keep everyone happy during this transition!
And one good reason to run LC, LC+, and LC+2.0 on DC … 49.99... That is what a 72w power pack runs. And I can get a 250w unit that is not Lionel for...……… 50 bucks lol No TIU, No AIU, no WIU, No AEIOU, no legacy cab 1, or cab 2. no 180w bricks. I just ran my lower level trains on my useless DC and smiled. Actually I laughed out loud! : ) And I like to kick this in also. BTO
Jim : )
carsntrains posted:H1000 posted:BOB WALKER posted:An obvious thought is why would the largest OGauge manufacturer invest heavily in LC and bluetooth if it didn't see this as the future?
And why would they add the "notoriously problematic" TMCC system to the "already perfect" LC and Bluetooth system?
To try to keep you TMCC guys from crying. ?? And that is a direct quote from a recent podcast. I will not state the name of the funny guy that said it. LOL I will salute Lionel for trying to keep everyone happy during this transition!
We asked for this on day 1 of LC and finally after 6 years we get it. I think it was discussed earlier that the TMCC features dind't add much cost to the overall price, so why the wait.
I still haven't found anyway to operate my layout (switches & accessories) with a Bluetooth remote and/or app yet, when is that coming?
"I still haven't found anyway to operate my layout (switches & accessories) with a Bluetooth remote and/or app yet, when is that coming?"
Many consumers may not be concerned about this. What they are more likely to be concerned about is the cost of command control. To operate a Bluetooth equipped loco, you might need no additional expense if you have a remote included. Command control for no extra charge. Or perhaps 40 bucks for the three loco universal remote.
For a TMCC loco (and I have dozens), you need to spring for a 200-300 dollar Legacy base and remote. For a PS3 loco, you need at least the Explorer (figure about 125 dollars), or for Wi-Fi and more watts on anything larger than a loop or two, you are talking 450 dollars for a DCS and WIU.
For the typical consumer, perhaps those advantages are more important than whether you can control switches or accessories (which also could be Bluetooth equipped, of course, if the manufacturers chose to do so in the future). Lionel already sells TMCC/Legacy controllable switches and accessories, so adding Bluetooth would be inexpensive compared with adding TMCC or Legacy. R/C airplane, boat and car manufacturers are not using 1960s technology for radio frequency communication and data, so why should Lionel or MTH be doing so today? Wi-Fi is OK for many uses, but it is a bit quirky compared with my 2.4 GHz radio control equipment which is rock solid.
To me the attraction of Bluetooth (or LC/LC+) is the value for money, simplicity and reliability. TMCC was relatively simple and reliable, and I liked it, but this technology pairing (Bluetooth and LC) takes the command environment to another level of simplicity, value and modernity for the better. It has only begun to be exploited in toy trains.
Use tour phone to talk on not run you trains .The prices are outragus as it is do;nt keep putting on extra cost. Look and see how many kids are at train show hardly any.
So what we've learned so far is that Bluetooth works great for smaller operators that are not serious about layout control. (Doesn't matter because many consumers may not be concerned about this 
)
Current Bluetooth specs only allow a maximum of 7 simultaneous connections at one time (you can pair as many as you want, but only connect to 7 of the paired devices at one time).
Systems using Bluetooth control still have yet to overcome the Master / Slave operating relationship (apparently the BlueRail app is able to overcome this but no details were given as to how).
Even though we currently have two systems available that use Bluetooth (LC & BlueRail) their apps and engines are not compatible with one another.
Reported user experiences with Bluetooth range (at least when using the LC locomotives) is workable for 10 to 20 feet (possibly more without any scenery obstructions but according to specs its max is 33 feet in optimal conditions).
TMCC is now available on the newest LC offerings but no bridge device exists yet for the last six years of LC engines to allow operation of these older engines with a Legacy or TMCC system.
While Bluerail does have an app that can control more than one engine at a time, its system is not widely available in O gauge and only by removing existing electronics and installing a BlueRail board.
LC also has an app but it is limited to controlling one engine at a time. LC does have a universal remote available that controls up to three engines but it lacks any future expansion capabilities for more engines, additional controls, or layout control unless those are added using cryptic multiple button combinations that are not documented yet.
H1000 posted:So what we've learned so far is that Bluetooth works great for smaller operators that are not serious about layout control. (Doesn't matter because many consumers may not be concerned about this)
Current Bluetooth specs only allow a maximum of 7 simultaneous connections at one time (you can pair as many as you want, but only connect to 7 of the paired devices at one time).
Systems using Bluetooth control still have yet to overcome the Master / Slave operating relationship (apparently the BlueRail app is able to overcome this but no details were given as to how).
Even though we currently have two systems available that use Bluetooth (LC & BlueRail) their apps and engines are not compatible with one another.
Reported user experiences with Bluetooth range (at least when using the LC locomotives) is workable for 10 to 20 feet (possibly more without any scenery obstructions but according to specs its max is 33 feet in optimal conditions).
TMCC is now available on the newest LC offerings but no bridge device exists yet for the last six years of LC engines to allow operation of these older engines with a Legacy or TMCC system.
While Bluerail does have an app that can control more than one engine at a time, its system is not widely available in O gauge and only by removing existing electronics and installing a BlueRail board.
LC also has an app but it is limited to controlling one engine at a time. LC does have a universal remote available that controls up to three engines but it lacks any future expansion capabilities for more engines, additional controls, or layout control unless those are added using cryptic multiple button combinations that are not documented yet.
With Bluetooth 5.0, devices can use data transfer speeds of up to 2 Mbps, which is double what Bluetooth 4.2 supports. Devices can also communicate over distances of up to 800 feet (or 240 meters), which is four times the 200 feet (or 60 meters) allowed by Bluetooth 4.2. However, walls and other obstacles will weaken the signal, as they do with Wi-Fi. All we need it for Lionel to step it up! Although the FCC will limit them due to interference rules.
My Kindle Fire HD 10 uses 4.0. But our Samsung Galaxy 8 uses 5.0. I cant find any information on what Bluetooth the new LC+2.0 will use...
Looks like its a Bluetooth kind of world! In my train room I have Bluetooth trains, Bluetooth speakers, Bluetooth outlets, Bluetooth earbuds. And manual turnouts!!! LOL AHAHAHAHAHAH
Jim
With Bluetooth 5.0, devices can use data transfer speeds of up to 2 Mbps, which is double what Bluetooth 4.2 supports.
The data throughput is moot point, we're not transmitting nearly enough data to overload any Bluetooth connection from any version.
Devices can also communicate over distances of up to 800 feet (or 240 meters), which is four times the 200 feet (or 60 meters) allowed by Bluetooth 4.2. However, walls and other obstacles will weaken the signal, as they do with Wi-Fi.
This only applies if you deploy the proper power class of Bluetooth radio with a good 2.4 GHz antenna. I don't think anyone wants some goofy looking unidirectional mushroom antenna sticking out of the top of their engine. Unfortunately, Lionel is currently using Class 3 equipment which is rated for an absolute maximum distance of 33 feet (again with good antennas at both ends).
Consider this, Bluetooth 2.0 from 2004 had a maximum range of 328 feet when using Class 1 transceivers. This range was more than adequate compare to what is installed in the universal remote right now.
All we need it for Lionel to step it up! Although the FCC will limit them due to interference rules.
Lionel can do this if they want, the FCC really won't stop them from doing so.
Something to consider, Lionel is still shipping everything (even LC+2?) with Bluetooth 4 installed. So what you are indicating is that we are getting old technology from Lionel in products that haven't even been built yet?
My Kindle Fire HD 10 uses 4.0. But our Samsung Galaxy 8 uses 5.0. I cant find any information on what Bluetooth the new LC+2.0 will use...
I posted a thread a while ago about a new bluetooth module that Lionel filed with FCC: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...luetooth-is-a-brewin
Perhaps this could be BT5 module, but the power output is still 1 mw and hence a class 3 device... same range as everything else.
carsntrains posted:H1000 posted:So what we've learned so far is that Bluetooth works great for smaller operators that are not serious about layout control. (Doesn't matter because many consumers may not be concerned about this)
Current Bluetooth specs only allow a maximum of 7 simultaneous connections at one time (you can pair as many as you want, but only connect to 7 of the paired devices at one time).
Systems using Bluetooth control still have yet to overcome the Master / Slave operating relationship (apparently the BlueRail app is able to overcome this but no details were given as to how).
Even though we currently have two systems available that use Bluetooth (LC & BlueRail) their apps and engines are not compatible with one another.
Reported user experiences with Bluetooth range (at least when using the LC locomotives) is workable for 10 to 20 feet (possibly more without any scenery obstructions but according to specs its max is 33 feet in optimal conditions).
TMCC is now available on the newest LC offerings but no bridge device exists yet for the last six years of LC engines to allow operation of these older engines with a Legacy or TMCC system.
While Bluerail does have an app that can control more than one engine at a time, its system is not widely available in O gauge and only by removing existing electronics and installing a BlueRail board.
LC also has an app but it is limited to controlling one engine at a time. LC does have a universal remote available that controls up to three engines but it lacks any future expansion capabilities for more engines, additional controls, or layout control unless those are added using cryptic multiple button combinations that are not documented yet.
With Bluetooth 5.0, devices can use data transfer speeds of up to 2 Mbps, which is double what Bluetooth 4.2 supports. Devices can also communicate over distances of up to 800 feet (or 240 meters), which is four times the 200 feet (or 60 meters) allowed by Bluetooth 4.2. However, walls and other obstacles will weaken the signal, as they do with Wi-Fi. All we need it for Lionel to step it up! Although the FCC will limit them due to interference rules.
My Kindle Fire HD 10 uses 4.0. But our Samsung Galaxy 8 uses 5.0. I cant find any information on what Bluetooth the new LC+2.0 will use...
Looks like its a Bluetooth kind of world! In my train room I have Bluetooth trains, Bluetooth speakers, Bluetooth outlets, Bluetooth earbuds. And manual turnouts!!! LOL AHAHAHAHAHAH
Jim
Wifi and bluetooth utilize a similar frequency range, so obstructions would affect them in the same way, except that the output power of most wifi devices are MUCH higher than that of most BT devices. (By a magnitude of 10x for devices to 1000x the power output in the case of routers) This is why my laptop is able to see wifi routers for a handful of my neighbors, despite many obstructions in between and the fact that they are hundreds of feet away from me. Even on a phone, the wifi power transmitted is in the range of .1 watts, but BT is in the range of .008 watts.
Also, with wifi, you are better able to utilize web based technology, instead of mobile app device dependent technology. Web based technology will work on any device.
MJCAT posted:carsntrains posted:H1000 posted:So what we've learned so far is that Bluetooth works great for smaller operators that are not serious about layout control. (Doesn't matter because many consumers may not be concerned about this)
Current Bluetooth specs only allow a maximum of 7 simultaneous connections at one time (you can pair as many as you want, but only connect to 7 of the paired devices at one time).
Systems using Bluetooth control still have yet to overcome the Master / Slave operating relationship (apparently the BlueRail app is able to overcome this but no details were given as to how).
Even though we currently have two systems available that use Bluetooth (LC & BlueRail) their apps and engines are not compatible with one another.
Reported user experiences with Bluetooth range (at least when using the LC locomotives) is workable for 10 to 20 feet (possibly more without any scenery obstructions but according to specs its max is 33 feet in optimal conditions).
TMCC is now available on the newest LC offerings but no bridge device exists yet for the last six years of LC engines to allow operation of these older engines with a Legacy or TMCC system.
While Bluerail does have an app that can control more than one engine at a time, its system is not widely available in O gauge and only by removing existing electronics and installing a BlueRail board.
LC also has an app but it is limited to controlling one engine at a time. LC does have a universal remote available that controls up to three engines but it lacks any future expansion capabilities for more engines, additional controls, or layout control unless those are added using cryptic multiple button combinations that are not documented yet.
With Bluetooth 5.0, devices can use data transfer speeds of up to 2 Mbps, which is double what Bluetooth 4.2 supports. Devices can also communicate over distances of up to 800 feet (or 240 meters), which is four times the 200 feet (or 60 meters) allowed by Bluetooth 4.2. However, walls and other obstacles will weaken the signal, as they do with Wi-Fi. All we need it for Lionel to step it up! Although the FCC will limit them due to interference rules.
My Kindle Fire HD 10 uses 4.0. But our Samsung Galaxy 8 uses 5.0. I cant find any information on what Bluetooth the new LC+2.0 will use...
Looks like its a Bluetooth kind of world! In my train room I have Bluetooth trains, Bluetooth speakers, Bluetooth outlets, Bluetooth earbuds. And manual turnouts!!! LOL AHAHAHAHAHAH
Jim
Wifi and bluetooth utilize a similar frequency range, so obstructions would affect them in the same way, except that the output power of most wifi devices are MUCH higher than that of most BT devices. (By a magnitude of 10x for devices to 1000x the power output in the case of routers) This is why my laptop is able to see wifi routers for a handful of my neighbors, despite many obstructions in between and the fact that they are hundreds of feet away from me. Even on a phone, the wifi power transmitted is in the range of .1 watts, but BT is in the range of .008 watts.
Also, with wifi, you are better able to utilize web based technology, instead of mobile app device dependent technology. Web based technology will work on any device.
Also you have to buy a WIU to use it with DCC. I dont know of another available system for model trains that uses WIFI.
H1000 yes if it is 4 it is old. I wonder what the Samsung Galaxy 9 has in it? I will look! 5 is getting older since the Galaxy 8 has been around a while. And since you say the interference laws of the FCC mean nothing then maybe they will add a bit of power? : ) I reckon the fact the Bluetooth has been backwards engineered is good. So 5 will still work 4 and 4.2
Jim
S9 has 5 also
carsntrains posted:Also you have to buy a WIU to use it with DCC. I dont know of another available system for model trains that uses WIFI.
H1000 yes if it is 4 it is old. I wonder what the Samsung Galaxy 9 has in it? I will look! 5 is getting older since the Galaxy 8 has been around a while. And since you say the interference laws of the FCC mean nothing then maybe they will add a bit of power? : ) I reckon the fact the Bluetooth has been backwards engineered is good. So 5 will still work 4 and 4.2
Jim
And since you say the interference laws of the FCC mean nothing then maybe they will add a bit of power?
The test results on the new module have already been published, they didn't add any power.
I reckon the fact the Bluetooth has been backwards engineered is good. So 5 will still work 4 and 4.2
For most part this is true, getting much older devices from the 1.1 and 1.2 days may not work, even some of the devices built in the 2.0 era have trouble connecting to newer 4 generation equipment.
So when Bluetooth evolves to version 9 or 10, will 4.x and 5.x device still work associating to those newer versions?... only time will tell.
WiFi has been around as long as Bluetooth and backwards compatible with everything according to the 802.11 standards. Last thanksgiving for kicks, I pulled out my first ever WiFi dongle that was introduced before the 802.11b standard was official. It was still able to connect to my new 802.11ac router.
H1000 posted:carsntrains posted:Also you have to buy a WIU to use it with DCC. I dont know of another available system for model trains that uses WIFI.
H1000 yes if it is 4 it is old. I wonder what the Samsung Galaxy 9 has in it? I will look! 5 is getting older since the Galaxy 8 has been around a while. And since you say the interference laws of the FCC mean nothing then maybe they will add a bit of power? : ) I reckon the fact the Bluetooth has been backwards engineered is good. So 5 will still work 4 and 4.2
Jim
And since you say the interference laws of the FCC mean nothing then maybe they will add a bit of power?
The test results on the new module have already been published, they didn't add any power.
I reckon the fact the Bluetooth has been backwards engineered is good. So 5 will still work 4 and 4.2
For most part this is true, getting much older devices from the 1.1 and 1.2 days may not work, even some of the devices built in the 2.0 era have trouble connecting to newer 4 generation equipment.
So when Bluetooth evolves to version 9 or 10, will 4.x and 5.x device still work associating to those newer versions?... only time will tell.
WiFi has been around as long as Bluetooth and backwards compatible with everything according to the 802.11 standards. Last thanksgiving for kicks, I pulled out my first ever WiFi dongle that was introduced before the 802.11b standard was official. It was still able to connect to my new 802.11ac router.
Do you know what BT the first engines/controllers had in them??
And what does the newest universal remote have in it?
Jim
Wifi Devices for operating Model Trains:
MTH WIU
MTH DCS Explorer
Lionel LCS Wifi Module
Digitrax Loconet Wifi Device
Wifi integration Through JMRI Software
MRC Wifi Module
Locofi
ESU Wifi DCC System
Piko Wifi DCC System
and the list goes on and on. Bluetooth is only used by 3 companies. Bachmann (HO only using Bluerail), Bluerail (which has zero offering for O gauge with smoke and sound as we all are used to), and Lionel (which offers no upgrade path)
carsntrains posted:H1000 posted:carsntrains posted:Also you have to buy a WIU to use it with DCC. I dont know of another available system for model trains that uses WIFI.
H1000 yes if it is 4 it is old. I wonder what the Samsung Galaxy 9 has in it? I will look! 5 is getting older since the Galaxy 8 has been around a while. And since you say the interference laws of the FCC mean nothing then maybe they will add a bit of power? : ) I reckon the fact the Bluetooth has been backwards engineered is good. So 5 will still work 4 and 4.2
Jim
And since you say the interference laws of the FCC mean nothing then maybe they will add a bit of power?
The test results on the new module have already been published, they didn't add any power.
I reckon the fact the Bluetooth has been backwards engineered is good. So 5 will still work 4 and 4.2
For most part this is true, getting much older devices from the 1.1 and 1.2 days may not work, even some of the devices built in the 2.0 era have trouble connecting to newer 4 generation equipment.
So when Bluetooth evolves to version 9 or 10, will 4.x and 5.x device still work associating to those newer versions?... only time will tell.
WiFi has been around as long as Bluetooth and backwards compatible with everything according to the 802.11 standards. Last thanksgiving for kicks, I pulled out my first ever WiFi dongle that was introduced before the 802.11b standard was official. It was still able to connect to my new 802.11ac router.
Do you know what BT the first engines/controllers had in them??
And what does the newest universal remote have in it?
Jim
As Lionel hasn't filed anything with the FCC to indicate that the engines nor the remote are using anything other than was initially propose, we can assume that everything is still using the same Bluetooth 4.
This new filing might be something, but there is no associated documentation to indicate what products it will be used in.
I may succumb and get into BlueToot in 3 or 4 (or 5 or 6?) years, when the current leftover cream of the BlueToot crop is put on sale at bargain-basement prices in order to make room for the next latest & greatest techno-whiz-bang technology breakthrough and new craze at that time.
But until then, this frugal model railroader doesn't care one way or another.
TexasSP posted:Wifi Devices for operating Model Trains:
MTH WIU
MTH DCS Explorer
Lionel LCS Wifi Module
Digitrax Loconet Wifi Device
Wifi integration Through JMRI Software
MRC Wifi Module
Locofi
ESU Wifi DCC System
Piko Wifi DCC System
and the list goes on and on. Bluetooth is only used by 3 companies. Bachmann (HO only using Bluerail), Bluerail (which has zero offering for O gauge with smoke and sound as we all are used to), and Lionel (which offers no upgrade path)
Take away everything that isnt O gauge : )
Jim
