Why Are There No Operating GG1s or Restoration Attempts?

I believe that the main reason they were retired was the fact that their onboard transformers contained sealed-in coolant which contained toxic chemicals (PCB's), and it was cost prohibitive to re-engineer the transformers. The ones on display have had their transformers removed and PCB's safely disposed of.

Bill in FtL

And since then, I believe the transmission voltage has changed.

Jon

I figured it was the line voltage. That's what got the DL&W Multiple Units too.

Not to mention they were worn out with frame cracking issues, besides the PCBs in all the transformers.

PCB's 

Is there ANY way to get around the PCB's?

You can get around anything with cubic dollars, including the frames and the PCB's, but even cubic dollars might not get you around the lack of a RR to run one on.  Don't expect Amtrak, a working RR with tight schedules and real world problems (like wind and weather impacting operations along the NEC this week) to fork over track time.

Bob

Railfan Brody posted:

Is there ANY way to get around the PCB's?

Absolutely NOT. In fact, all the transformers were physically removed & destroyed from every single GG1, and thus any of those "saved" have no transformer anyway.

This subject comes up quite a bit on train buff forums, I'd bet a google search would come up with several good ones that explain it in detail.

The GG1s had an insane amount of miles on them before they got retired, they did indeed have frame issues throughout their lives, and you'd have to pretty much replace everything but the carbody to run one today. By the time you were done, the locomotive would be suffering a huge case of Theseus's paradox (think of the 'George Washington's axe' argument).

It's a shame as several GG1s were saved and a few are in 'rotting away' condition today...

Based on everything I have read about this, the closest you would probably get is a gg1-ish loco.  Something someone would have to spend a large amount of money on that may use a GG1 Body and some other parts but little else.  By possible  of course I mean the most possible scenario while still being a fantasy for the most part.

Where is modern electronic transformer technology, if something like the Strasburg PA. RR Museum came up with a donation funding program? If you throw enough money at it, l've heard you can put a man on the moon, so.....

I can't think of anything more expensive than a complete GG1 restoration.   You'd be better off building an all new chooch dimensioned to look like a GG1....which could be engineered to run effectively in today's environment.   PRR 5550 will run loooong before any of those old original Gees.  Sorry !

This is a very good question.  In my previous jobs, I have managed several municipal electric systems, about 32 years, but am not an electrical engineer.  Transformers and other electrical apparatus (voltage regulators, etc.) that had "transformer oil" in them, made prior to about 1975 had the PCB's in them.  During the 70's and 80's there was a liability and regulation- driven movement underway to retire old transformers with PCB's OR to pump out the oil with PCB's and replace it with new transformer oil that did not have any PCB's.

New transformers that do the same job occupy less physical space (just like motors have gotten smaller).  

I am more interested in steam power, but am kinda surprised that nobody has really tried to get a GG-1 running.  There are better welding techniques today that could repair the frame cracks, and maybe get better results.

You could start over with a brand new engine and make it in the shape of a GG-1 and that would be much better then restoring any old GG-1. The expense and then the material needed would not be cost effective in any way. The frames on most original GG-1's are beyond repair.

The main thing about the GG-1 is that they used 25 hertz(or cycles) compared to today's 60 hertz(or cycles) electricity and they had different voltage as well. So the motors would have to be changed out along with the transformers inside, making it too costly to attempt.

Lee Fritz

phillyreading posted:

The main thing about the GG-1 is that they used 25 hertz(or cycles) compared to today's 60 hertz(or cycles) electricity and they had different voltage as well. So the motors would have to be changed out along with the transformers inside, making it too costly to attempt.

Lee Fritz

     Actually, the former Pennsylvania west of Sunnyside is still 25Hz (Raised to 12kv from 11), as is the former Reading in the Philly-area. The parts that were changed to 25kv 60Hz were NJT's ex-Lackawanna territory (From 3kv DC), Amtrak's ex-PRR Hell Gate Line (From 11kv 25Hz), and Metro-North's New Haven Line (Also from 11kv 25Hz). Also, Amtrak's Boston electrification was built to 25kv 60Hz.

     As PCBs go, I believe the E-60s did have their PCBs flushed and replaced.

    All this being said, I still think there's a better chance that we'll see Amtrak use the GG1 carbody design on their next new electrics than there is that we'll see a G running again.

Kelly Anderson posted:

I took a call once from a guy who wanted my opinion on his idea of filling the car body of a GG1 with car batteries and powering it that way.

From a "slightly" more practical real world direction, the most likely way to see a GG1 run again would be to dieselize it, if it would even be possible to provide power that would work with it's traction motors, if those traction motors are even restorable after all this time.  Then it could be run on any tourist line where a little more life might be squeezed out of the brittle frames, etc.  You would still be talking millions of dollars plus. 

And why would you want to?  It's not a steam engine, it looks exactly the same when moving as it does sitting dead.

Not that I think the notion of getting a GG-1 running is any more practical than those who know better (as far as I know there doesn't even exist the capability in this country to cast objects as large as the GG1's frames), how's this for a silly idea: make it a road slug, getting its power from generators in a tethered unit trailing behind. At least then you could still say it was pulling whatever was behind it

(Disclaimer: I feel the need to reiterate that I don't think any of the proposals floated are workable, and even a T-1-esque reproduction would have no place to run)

---PCJ

The PCB oil was used not only because it did not burn, but it also had outstanding heat transfer properties. There was work to find a replacement oil for the GG-1, but the best oil that could be found would result in a reduction in horsepower.  As I recall it was about a 30% reduction. The main transformer that was removed also included the tap changing equipment used to accelerate the locomotive.  This means that a replacement transformer would be complicated to build. It is too bad one of the original transformers was not saved and cleaned as it would allow a GG-1 to run today, just at reduced hp. 

Maybe the best thing that could be done is have a cosmetically restored and mechanically road worthy GG1 be pushed by another electric or diesel engine.

PAUL ROMANO posted:

Maybe the best thing that could be done is have a cosmetically restored and mechanically road worthy GG1 be pushed by another electric or diesel engine.

But what about the cracked frame issue?