Williams mikado re-detailed as a Southern Ms-4

What did you use to remove the paint?

Thanks

Zip Strip.  Made short work of the factory paint.

Great to see someone doing this type of work,

Enjoy, and keep us posted on progress please.

So - you got started on this project.  Good to see. The bare brass does look good. Looking forward to seeing the Worthington BL FWH application, since most of these Ms-4's were Elesco like mine.

Those Wms Samhongsas were - and are - real values. Smooth.

i will be watching this transformation.

Looks like a great project. Looking forward to keep up with your progress

I decided to start with the tender, as it will be a quicker job than the locomotive.  The Ms-4 tender was basically a stock USRA 10,000 gallon tender, as is the Williams model, to which they added a dog house flanked by walk boards, and over time an extended coal bunker.  I ended up cutting brass tube to get the curved shape of the raised bunker (after failing in my attempt to make them out of brass bar stock).  The dog house is a PSC D&RG K-27 kit (plastic!), modified to closer match my prototype.  The walk boards need to be cleaned up and painted, but the tender is more or less ready for the paint shop.

Creative thinking for the coal bunker extension! I've been trying to figure out how to do that for my Southern steam engines.

Couple thoughts for future projects if you can't solder materials.

Depending on the tender type I have used wood quarter round soaked in CA glue and sanded.  Gives a hard slick finish.  Once a load is in the bunker you can't tell it's solid.

There are SR prototype doghouses on shapeways.

Cool idea.  And shapeways is a great source for unsual parts - I've got a few I'll use here.  Don't tell anybody, but those coal boards aren't soldered.  With a good quality CA, I attached a brass gusset strip to the inside of the curved piece (flattened on the bottom), and then glued the piece to the inside of the bunker.  It's strong enough to be handled, and like you said with coal you'll never see inside.

With the tender ready for the paint shop, I decided to turn my attention to the front end.  The smokebox is about 10 scale inches too slim, but the anemic look is worsened by the oversized headlight, smokestack (probably to accommodate the Seuthe smoke unit), and those googly marker lights.  Even the headlight bracket was too big to re-use.  Here's the cleaned up smokebox front with the new parts ready to install:

Removing the stack was no easy task without a resistance soldering iron, but I got it off without dismantling the entire front end!  Here's the new stack in place:

I also removed the air compressor, which will be relocated, and cleared the area in preparation for the Worthington feedwater heater:

No turning back now!  There's a bit more deconstruction to do, and then parts will start to go back on.  All the while I'm consulting photos of Ms-4s, and in particular the one I'm modeling, 4813.  Until next time...

Nice progress!
johnA

The smokebox front is now more or less completed (just propped in place here).  As you'll see I relocated the marker lights, changed the grab rail, added a step, and installed the new, smaller headlight/bracket and stack.  Interesting how it makes the whole thing look larger, and definitely more like a Ms-4.

This looks awesome!

One of the most visible added details will be the Worthington BL-2 feedwater heater.  Here it is in place, with relocated piping and an extended rear running board.  Now I have to figure out how to re-mount the compressor in its new location below the extension.  I've done similar things with diecast engines and let me tell you, this is much easier!

For me, one of the spotting features of higher-end brass is the presence of boiler jacket clamps. This loco didn't have any, so I added them, along with a third safety valve and a Nathan low-water alarm.  The holes are where the steam dome goes.

I'm detailing this loco to represent #4813, which spent most of its life on the Southern's Washington Division.  As most fans of Southern steam power know, each division's shop added their own distinct touches.  Here you can see the completed Worthington feedwater heater with running boards that go up and over, and the handrails with bends characteristic of Alexandria shops.  I still have to add some piping and a few grab rails, but the fireman's side is getting close to done.

Phenomenal work so far! The jacket clamps are a great touch!

Thanks, Will.  It's amazing how much little details change the look of the whole thing.

@49Lionel posted:

Thanks, Will.  It's amazing how much little details change the look of the whole thing.

I’d agree,….nice work,..it’s looking less and less like a low end Williams and more like a fine KTM or Overland model already!…great job!..

Pat

More tiny details go on - piping to and from the compressor and stoker motor, and a characteristic Southern cab window awning made from coffee can bottom.  I find that medium roast works best.

Up front, running board steps, a blower pipe, sand box grab iron, pipe connecting the two tanks, and an arm for the bell lanyard:

Hoping to start painting next week!

Inspiring.  Really nice work!  

Indeed. Almost a shame to paint over that beautiful brass...

Mark in Oregon

The final detail parts on the boiler shell went on, and in preparation for painting I test fitted the shell on the chassis.  So far so good - it looks more like an Ms-4!

With good days for spray painting becoming less numerous, I'm trying to capitalize on a few days off - gave it a nice vinegar bath today, and now the boiler and tender shells have a coat of primer. No more bare brass!  I did sort of hate to cover it over, but this is going to be a runner, not a shelf piece.  I still have details/paint to add to the chassis, but that paint will be done by brush which I can do indoors, so I'll be happy to get the shells wrapped up soon.

After a work-induced hiatus, progress is back.  Both of the shells have been primed and painted:

Not bad for a rattle-can paint job.  The smokebox is still in primer, and will get "graphited" at the end.  Detail paint and decals are going on:

I usually use dry transfers, but K4 Decals has a complete Southern set that I decided to try.  They're pretty easy to use.  It doesn't show up well in the photo, but I clearcoated the area where the decals go, as it helps to hide the film.  Once you put another clearcoat on top, it pretty much disappears (sort of).  I've already clearcoated the tender, and just have to put in the coal load and the dog house.  The loco has a new identity!

Superb job.  Putting a successful project together for the (hopefully) last time is a rush and is truly satisfying - exciting, even.

I like K4 Decals, also. The "rattle can" paint is just fine - I use nothing else. (The current cans of thick "2X Coverage!" paint disease is becoming an issue for fine work. Not everyone wants to paint wicker patio furniture. The now-common non-clearable nozzles are also taking a toll.) 

Super nice job on the redetailing project she really came out great!

I use rattle cans but buy them from an auto paints store. Its the rattle cans they use for autos

Its  finer pigmented and lays on nicer than 2X coverage stuff and doesn't clog nozzles like home use sprays!

Bad part its expensive but much better product

It is exciting to see it come together.  Always a bit terrifying to do the final clearcoat!

The tender is done!  I had chipped the coal load out with an awl, and made sure all the chunks were broken back up.  I made a big blob of hot glue in the bunker to get the nice contour, covered it over with coal and glued it up like ballast.

The clearcoat is Vallejo acrylic satin varnish.  My LHS recommended it for another project, and I really like how it works.  You have to put it on so it looks way too heavy, otherwise you get a flat, inconsistent finish.  But lay it on thick and as it dries - very slowly - it thins out, evens up, and you get this nice satin finish.  The wheels got toned down with NeoLube.

Looks excellent! Any chance you plan on swapping that big coupler with a Kadee since you've already gone to so much trouble?

Great project. Very nicely done.

@Will Ebbert posted:

Looks excellent! Any chance you plan on swapping that big coupler with a Kadee since you've already gone to so much trouble?

I was thinking the same thing, the lobster claw sticks out like a sore thumb.  Little by little I'm changing my cars over to Kadees - I'll take a look and see how tricky it would be to do this tender.

Thanks to everyone for the nice comments.

Beautifully done! This thread is an inspiration! Could you give us a running video when you're finished?

Will do.

I've turned my attention now to adding details around the pilot, including air lines, flag holders, a platform, and a (hopefully) moving mechanical lubricator that really has me stumped at the moment.  But, here's a little teaser of how the boiler shell looks - done except for whistle and bell lanyards.  I was irked not to be able to find proper ALCO-Richmond plates, but the Schenectady ones will have to do. 

Regarding ALCO Richmond builders plates. Did you contact the ALCO Historical Society, or the TN Valley Museum. They might have a photo of a builder's plate that you could then work from -- print on card stock or 3D print. You're doing a beautiful job.

Looks absolutely spectacular! Here's a photo I took of 630's builder's plate of that's of any use.

@modeltrainsparts posted:

Regarding ALCO Richmond builders plates. Did you contact the ALCO Historical Society, or the TN Valley Museum. They might have a photo of a builder's plate that you could then work from -- print on card stock or 3D print. You're doing a beautiful job.

That's not a bad idea, but I really like the look of brass builders plates.  Willing to live with the incorrect location!

@Dave Funk posted:

Super nice job on the redetailing project she really came out great!

I use rattle cans but buy them from an auto paints store. Its the rattle cans they use for autos

Its  finer pigmented and lays on nicer than 2X coverage stuff and doesn't clog nozzles like home use sprays!

Bad part its expensive but much better product

Yes.

One of my favorite "Eureka!" modeling moments came when, years ago, a wise old 2-rail O-scaler showed me a loco he was repainting. I asked about the "weathered black" color - assuming it was Floquil from an airbrush - and he said it was "Automotive Primer" from the auto parts store. From a can. Rust-O-Leum, I think.

It even comes in different shades of flat gray - light, medium and dark, depending on brand and such. Looks like weathered black to me. Goes on well, and can even be lightly buffed to give an old, formerly black, slightly oily look.

I think the trick to getting good results from a rattle can is knowing how the paint works - how thick or thin it wants to go on, how many coats, etc.  Once you get results you like, stick with it!

SR's Alexandria shops had a peculiar way of driving the lubricator from the expansion link, and I finally figured out how get mine together:

A locomotive running around with its valve gear on center looks silly once you know how it's supposed to look.  I had also hoped to put the valve gear in forward by mounting the radius bar lower in the expansion link, but for various reasons I had to abandon that here.  It certainly tops my least of features I wish our engines had.

The parts pile is gone, the paint is on, and it's time for re-assembly!

That looks great! Yes I wish manufacturers would have the reverser forward. If only I had $5k for the 3rd Rail Allegheny with working valve gear...

Oilers working on a cab forward. A small but nice detail.

It sure is a nice detail.  Didn't you also try to put the valve gear on that cab-forward in... forward?

Completed!  Everything's back together, and the last few details are on.  I was going to NeoLube the rods, but I think they look pretty convincing as they are.

I had ERR cruise/RS installed, and she runs just as good as she looks.  One last thing: the original Seuthe smoke unit wouldn't fit in the new stack, so I opted to go smoke-free.  I also didn't re-install the marker lights, but instead of removing the bulbs I shoved them into the base of the stack, inventing a feature completely new to the world of model railroading: Stack Glow (patent pending), simulating a load of bad coal at night.  I plan to retire off the royalties once the big guys pick up on this one. 

Hope you've enjoyed watching this process and have gotten a few ideas!

Beautiful job!  She certainly looks 'real' and is a truly unique locomotive with the attention to detail you've given her. Sorry, but A.C. Gilbert beat you to the punch with their 'Red Glowing Smoke' I think it was called back in the early '50s. Now you may have to delay retirement awhile if you were counting on your 'royalties' from this neat feature!

PS  Is the pilot wheel stock Williams? A full-sized pilot wheel)s) lends so much to our steamers. Too many of them come with greatly undersized pilot wheels. We sold the early brass steamers at my shop when they first came out and I can't remember if the scale wheels were standard.

Figures, there goes my retirement...

Yes, those are the stock pilot wheels.  Painting them all black improved the look quite a lot!

Far cry from a sparsely decorated Williams …..nice work!….

Pat

That looks....great. Well done!

👍x1000. 🙂

Mark in Oregon 🎄

Looks absolutely exquisite!

Thanks for all the kind comments!  I always enjoy threads on here that cover the bashing of a locomotive, because more and more that's the only hope we have of getting something you want, accurately.  I've learned so much from them, hopefully this one will contribute.  Also, we have to keep those detail part suppliers in business!

Fantastic job.

"Smoke free" is fine with me, also. I like the look of smoke and I like the smell of model loco smoke fluid (unless inappropriately scented, which is most of the scents) - but smoke units are a prime center of frustration to me - they work, they don't, they kind of work, need fixing, burned out...phooey. I leave them off mostly anyway, even if they work.  The ones that work only make me think of the ones that don't. Had one die on me last month - as I was watching the blasted loco go by. Thanks - rub it in.

The glow. I removed the improper class lights from my 1st Gen Lionel J3a some years ago - pushed the green LED's into the smokebox and filled the holes. Out of sight, out of mind. But now - I wonder if my Hudson's stack glows a bit green in the dark? I'll have to look.

@D500 posted:

The glow. I removed the improper class lights from my 1st Gen Lionel J3a some years ago - pushed the green LED's into the smokebox and filled the holes. Out of sight, out of mind. But now - I wonder if my Hudson's stack glows a bit green in the dark? I'll have to look.

Nuclear-powered J3a?

Great work. I feel like I've seen this topic before but I haven't for some reason. Nice job making the dream a reality.

@49Lionel posted:

It sure is a nice detail.  Didn't you also try to put the valve gear on that cab-forward in... forward?

I think so. I haven't run anything in a while.

Awesome work!!

@Southern Railway Sean posted:

Awesome work!!

Thanks!  Next project is an H-4 2-8-0.  Stay tuned...

Awesome job! She looks very realistic!

@49Lionel posted:

Thanks!  Next project is an H-4 2-8-0.  Stay tuned...

I can't wait.

@49Lionel posted:

inventing a feature completely new to the world of model railroading: Stack Glow (patent pending), simulating a load of bad coal at night.  I plan to retire off the royalties once the big guys pick up on this one. 

Looks great.

That look worked for Marx in the 30's and for American Flyer twenty years later. Good ideas come around again.  

Didn't Marx have a windup that actually shot sparks out the stack?