York april 2015 observation

I always wished I brought a flashlight to the brown hall.

I said it in a previous post that it's time for the Brown Hall to go.  Consolidate it into either the Purple or Orange halls.

Unless there is an influx of new dealers coming to York, I would say that it is only a matter of time before Brown is phased out and the dealers there moved to Orange and Purple.

Andy

This was my first York meet. While I was amazed how big it was I was somewhat disappointed. Other than Korber Models I saw only three other non-dealers selling kits. One was a large Walthers HO kit display, one a gentleman was selling building fronts and the last one another non-dealer was selling assembled kits and a few scratch-built (beautifully made).
Is this normal for York or did I just hit an off year for kits and structures.
Joe

Back in the day when the Yellow hall was open, the Purple hall had some high end action.  That was after the chicken cages were removed.

Marty, I will never forget the smell of the old Purple Hall on a hot day!

Peter

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall very many building "kits" available for "O", besides building fronts/sides from Ameritowne and a few others. Years ago, some houses were available. I think the "hot item" now are the Ready-Built offerings from Woodland Scenics in O,HO,and N. I think these "ready-builts" are available as kits, but I don't remember seeing them at train shows.

I think the brown hall this time around only had 4 dealers in it.   They should consolidate and move them to the purple hall.

Last Fall I didn't even bother to go into the brown hall.

I imagine plans are already well underway to move the remaining Brown Hall dealers to better accommodations. I know one former Purple Hall dealer (close friend) is now in the Orange Hall, so my guess is that as space opens up, Brown Hall dealers will be offered an opportunity to move to the Purple Hall (first) and perhaps even to the Orange Hall as space continues to open up in all halls.

The times they are a changin', folks, and we all just need to adjust and accept.

Joe,

Many of us have lamented the relatively small numbers and variety of O Gauge building kits. Our HO friends have a wide array of items at their disposal.

Such is life in the O gauge world.  If you want a building that isn't on everyone else's layout, you pretty much have to scratch build it.

George

They should reopen the Green Hall.  That was always a fun spot.   

Kindred opiner, here...

I have been counseled by a couple of our (LHS) O2R customers that what we seek will more likely be found at the larger O2R meets/shows....Indianapolis, Chicago, Cleveland, etc..  I'm a bit chagrined to say that I've never been to one of those events....but this could be the year!! 

I've also talked directly with Branchline (Laser Art) and Bar Mills about attending York.  For the expense/time/market segment...in comparison to other (mainly HO) shows...it's not feasible.   In fairness, though, Bar Mills O gauge products were well represented, beautifully displayed at the Scenic Express booth.  Altoona and Mt. Albert kits were also available at a dealer booth in Orange Hall.  And we must not forget that OGR and their fine Ameritowne line of buildings was certainly well presented/available!!

As I mentioned in another thread, River Leaf Models (excellent laser cut buildings) shared the Korber booth, something that I thought was a really neat, class act on the part of Rich.  Cooperatively providing space for what one might have even considered somewhat of a 'competitor' was a class-act summa cum laude, .....IMHO, of course.

Frankly, I've always been a bit puzzled by the lack of folks marketing structures of simpler, less costly materials....like cardstock.  There are excellent products out there, and the whole concept is not unlike the old Skyline buildings of 65 years ago.  And how long has it been since a new O scale Plasticville building was added to the line??....and why not????? (I need to pull Bachmann's chain on this in October).  The PV line is more demanded by O/S modelers than HO, per our (LHS) sales of the products.

Something to ruminate about, I guess....

KD

KD, I also frequent the 2R Scale shoes.  I went to the O Scale National in Towson,MD back in 2010 and now hit the Strasburg, PA shows religiously.  They are excellent sources for things you just won't find at the 3 rail shows.

George

Change the word COULD to be SHOULD. i never miss a Chicago or Cleveland show and attend some of the Indy meets (depending upon date held). While the Sunset/ Golden Gate display at York is two tables I have four tables at Chicago and usually three at Cleveland.

No parking problem for your RV at Cleveland. Contact the Chicago show promoter about parking there. Your wife and you will not regret going to these shows. Compared to what you see at York, these will make you not want to miss any in the future.

Rheil:  are you referring to the monthly Great Midwest Train Show held in Wheaton, IL?  I have never been to one, but thinking of going.  i would love to attend York, but it's a 1,000 mile road trip (one way) for me, as Wheaton is only 300 miles.  Thanks.

No. I am referring to what is called the March Meet - a 2 rail show held in mid March in Lombard, IL - a Chicago suburb. I believe the show date for 2016 is the first weekend in April. Google the website for March Meet.

Yep, I always enjoyed the crap games and cock fighting in the back of the green hall...or maybe that was a different show...

Lets be honest, no offense to the unfortunate vendors in the brown hall, but it was dark and frankly depressing! 

Bob...

Thanks...belatedly...for the tip!  Yep, we have a new RV since April York...would love to give it a workout.  Daisy & Millie are eager to travel, too!

You wouldn't happen to know if the Indianapolis show site can accommodate an RV...for parking, only...no hook-ups req'd??  If not, we'll check with the sponsor/show site folks.

I think we'll make a real effort to do Indy this year.   The show schedule looks do-able at this stage.  But, Chicago next April?...not likely.  Easter-to-Florida-to- York...that's what will consume that 2016 month....LWATCDR!...and the remaining snow-on-the-ground is less than 6 feet!!!!.

(sigh)

KD/DK/M&D

I see others have looked for structure kits at York.  I have found and brought home

some from there in the past, but not the last two times.  I have LONG attended many

two rail shows..Chicago, Cleveland, Indy, once in NE Pa.,  for just that reason, but recent ones have been kind of thin in structures, and I found none at the Strasburg O  Scale show, which immediately preceded this last York week.

Whether we like it or not the audience is aging and the hobby is contracting. That is what the hobby needs to react to. Last Oct I noticed more space was not occupied even at the purple hall. Expect unoccupied space to increase every year and I'll tell you why. Since the ED TCA meet is the only closed meet in the country of any hobby, this stubborn posture can only mean smaller attendance and lower sales for the vendors. The AACA, the largest car collector club in the world invites everyone to its show in Hershey, the car shows at Carlisle are open to all car clubs and to the public. Some of these shows attract 100,000 people and are still thriving. 

I was a TCA member for 35 years and this will be my final York until such time that the meet becomes open to everyone. Its just plain ignorant business sense continuing a closed meet policy. You limit potential attendees, hurt your vendors (that bear a tremendous expense to be there), and put the meet on a path to eventual obsolescence.  When someone shows up at the gate with admission money, smart business people say, "come right in".

IMO, to move forward, the TCA has to think of reasons why it should, not reasons why it shouldn't. If the former is set in stone, the outcome is inevitable; less attendees, less vendors and a much smaller show.

Dennis, Same ol, same ol with you. I like it just the way it is. If you don't like it, don't renew your membership. Nothing personal.   

Remember that the Eastern Division sets the rules for the York Meet, not TCA, so don't blame the  TCA.

Bill

Resurrecting a thread that's been dormant for 4 months means one of two things....

BULL. There are a number of dues-paying organizations that have closed conventions and "trade shows". However, one that I'm a member of allows the paying public in on the last day of the dealer/sale session.

Oh wait...that's what York does! Public can pay to join/enter at the gate.

Joe,

Public can pay to join/enter at the gate.

Really? Since when?

Since the first meet after the 2 signature rule went away.

Pay dues(join), pay meet registration(enter), and you are in.

Of course, once you pay your dues you are a member.

You could essentially do this before the signature rule went away, too.  Finding people at York to sign peoples' applications was not difficult (according to a number of people I've spoken to).  This is part of the reason that the signature rule went away.  It was no longer serving a purpose.

Andy

Pffft!  The NTS, which is a show that runs annually with the NMRA convention, which is both open to the public and it all scales, was much smaller this year than it was in 2011 at the Sacramento convention.

Guys,

Joe,

Public can pay to join/enter at the gate.

Really? Since when?

Since the first meet after the 2 signature rule went away.

 

Pay dues(join), pay meet registration(enter), and you are in.

That's complete nonsense.

The implication in the statement was that the public could attend on the last day of the meet. That just isn't true.

Once you join, you're no longer "the public" - you're then a member. And you'd have to pay the $50 or so annual dues, as well as the full-rate fee for the meet itself.

The York meet is, indeed, members only. Period.

Then you need to learn to quote more effectively. (Period!)

The part you quoted is true.  (as is my response). (Period!)

The part you did not quote is apparently what you are taking issue with.  (Period!)

(see how annoying and pompous that comes off as now? )

whatever the warts, is there anywhere better than york for the overall o gauge experience

jerry

Nope!

(see how annoying and pompous that comes off as now?

Yes, you are.

Basically, what we've determined here is that York is public, it just costs a lot and you get a free TCA membership as well.

Yes, and "costs a lot" is a great primer for understanding this hobby.

No point in worrying about the York Meet. Just plan to attend at every opportunity and enjoy it as it is. It truly is the world's greatest (and largest) toy train meet, so take advantage of that unique experience.

About the only thing you can be certain of is that the meet will continue to progressively shrink in size over the years to come. That's pretty much a guarantee no matter what the Eastern Div. does or fails to do. Opening it to the public wouldn't make a bit of difference, aside from a slight upward tick the first time that option is made available. It's all in the demographics, folks, as I've stated probably a hundred times before over the past decade or so.

I go every time just so I can have first-hand knowledge of what all the complaints are about.  

I don't know what it costs a dealer/mfr. to attend York, and I do know that few O scale

structure kit makers do.  I also know it costs about $100 to register to attend the Narrow Gauge Convention, (dunno what it costs as a mfr. or dealer, but that can't be cheap, either) and a lot of those same O scale kit builders attend it, who do not

attend York.  "Narrow gauge" is only a portion of the O scale interest.  Of course,

Indy had very few O scale structure kits last week.

First off, as has been stated several times, the York meet belongs to the Eastern Division of TCA.  As in most organizations in America, you can get involved, get elected, get the membership behind you, and then start making the changes that you want.  That may involve you moving into the Eastern boundaries. 

Or better yet, build up the membership in your TCA division and get a show going that rivals York. 

The comparisons between different shows would be more interesting if you kept the comparisons in the same hobby and in the same state.  Compare other PA train shows to York.

I drive several hundred miles to go to York because of the concentration of dealers, diversity of trains, and fellow hobbyists.  It's not perfect, but it is entertaining to me and worth the trip. 

The huge group of volunteers and members of that division get a tip of the hat from me.

I liked York for the variety of larger vendors under one or three roofs.  Now I just take a road trip and go to their stores.  Most of the time the isles are clear of the people that act like it's old home week and block the passage of everyone because they are oblivious to everyone else in the world, no strollers or electric carts to run you over and usually a better selection of local restaurants.

What stores? (that have any stock but HO and N)?  I agree about the familty reunions

held at the junction of aisles, artfully designed to block traffic from four directions,

and the other obstacles and "road hazards". I fear I would have a longer drive than

to York to find stores with much of anything, much less a concentration such as it is,

and often there is little there I want.

Well, you could start by comparing the York Greenberg shows to the York TCA meet, since they take place at the very same venue.  The big difference is that the Greenberg shows only make use of half of the Orange Hall.

The Greenberg folks are good people, and I'm sure that they would like to put on a public train show that takes up the whole fairgrounds, but apparently many dealers that go to TCA York won't bother for Greenberg.  I can only guess at the reason for this, but I am guessing that it is because they don't think there is enough potential customers in the area to make it worth their while.

I think a big part of the success of the York TCA Meet is the dedication of the TCA membership in general and, more specifically, the volunteers of the Eastern Division.

Andy

i think you are correct in your assumptions andy

While York is still an excellent meet run by great people, the times are changing and policies need to be changed accordingly.  I fear the restrictive members only admission requirement will lead to the eventual demise of this event within five years. The TCA/ED is largely dependent upon the shrinking baby boom generation of exclusive TCA member hobbyists for the success this event. As this generation continues to age, factors such as decreased mobility/health, downsizing/relocation, monetary concerns and the economy all come into play. As this situation continues on its inevitable path, attendees at York will decline and they will spend less.

Point is that restricting admission to this event hurts the vendors like OGR who spend loads of money for food, employees, accommodations and travel to sell there.

An open admissions policy (the same as all other hobby events have) will be the the only saving grace available. Look at the AACA, the largest automobile club in the world. Anyone can attend to their fall Hershey show and it attracts over 250,000 people. AACA does it, so can ED/TCA. 

 I hope that further discussion on the York meet can be made, factual & logical evidence presented, positive suggestions made, solutions offered and personalizing kept out. 

Opening the York Meet to the general public (keeping in mind that it already is open to anyone and everyone who cares to go and who can afford the membership/admission fee) will, in my opinion, in no way significantly increase participation in the event. Many long-standing independent member/sellers will pull out, many TCA members who enjoy the event for its focused members-only orientation will stop attending, and many dealers/manufacturers will either scale-back their level of participation or go to Oct.-only participation.

Some progressive decline in overall attendance and participation is inevitable. The challenge comes in figuring out realistic ways to adjust to that.

With in 5 years? OK if it does I will purchase for you any item from the Lionel catalog that year of your choice, if not you will do the same for me. By demise we mean it goes away completely right? The car show analogy is bogus, there are way more car collectors in this country than O and S gaugers combined, you'll never see 250,000 at any train show. Christmas displays that are open for several weeks during the holidays would be hard pressed to generate those numbers so I don't think that many would actually go to York. Greenbergs, Allentown and others don't generate those numbers and they are open to the public so apparently there is no huge numbers out there who are waiting in the wings for York, if there was they would go to the shows that are open to them.

Jerry

I agree on all points. Based on feedback from sellers at the World's Greatest Hobby Show, as well as many Greenberg shows (where I spent full weekends with our modular group), about the only thing the "family out for the day" were buying was "Thomas The Tank Engine" do-dads. Some WGHS dealers told me "Never again!".

There are probably a fair majority of these families that are no more apt to start a train collection/layout after visiting a train show than they would be to start a collection of odd pets after visiting a zoo or start their own amusement park after visiting a theme park.  The Thomas purchases are the souvenirs from the experience in most cases.

A Train Show is an experience for them, not a repeat destination or a new hobby.  Next weekend is a different experience.

Just like people go to boat shows and car shows.  Not everyone there is going to buy a new boat or car, but it's something to do.  Someone may like to see the top of the line Corvette, Mustang, etc, but for most in attendance it doesn't mean they are going to their local car dealer to order one the next week.

Obviously there are exceptions, and such things are helpful to at least let people know such a hobby still exists.  (all the "I didn't know they still made Lionel trains" posts over the years)

The things they will remember is the displays of manufacturers and the layouts, most likely.  The tables upon tables of product for sale isn't going to resonate in a positive way for many(and the sticker shock could dampen the desire for a few who may wish to try the hobby).  And this is why there is nothing wrong with the current model of the York Meet.

-Dave

That's pretty much what I was going to say. 

Dennis, I will bet you right now $1,000 cash on your prediction that York is totally gone by 2020. Attendance might be down but it will be there.

Jerry is correct. You can't compare O Gauge trains to autumotive hobby. The automotive hobby has much greater numbers.

Dennis, thank God the ED TCA doesn't listen to your ideas because opening York up to the public is exactly what will make your prediction come true. Fortunately, that's never going to happen.

One of of the things (IMHO) that makes York so great is that everyone who attends loves trains. Opening up to the public would bring lots of families who only have a temporary interest trains because they have young kids who like Thomas,etc. Sad to say but most of these parents and kids can't get out of the hobby fast enough when the child enters the video game age. The fact that everyone at York is a real die hard enthusiast makes York more fun and makes it better for manufacturers both large and small to talk to the people who actually are participating in the hobby. That's probably why they don't attend Greenberg shows. 

I think you either underestimate the number of people that are into cars, or overestimate the number of people that care about toy trains. I attend a Volkswagen event in Georgia that draws around 40,000 people for one brand. Think then about how many more people are into modern Mustangs, Camaros, and Corvettes. Then how many are into muscle cars. Then the street rodders and hot rodders. Then the other import folks. Add in the guys into 1950s cruisers, and the people into British cars.

This is certainly the biggest O gauge forum on the internet, and probably one of the biggest focused upon model railroading. Yet, search sites like 3sdm, vwvortex, Jalopnik, yellowbullet, etc., and look at the size of their membership.

It isn't fair to this hobby to try to compare it to the car community at all. There are just a lot more car people than model railroaders. And, even though cars are divided into a number of different niches, an event like AACA is going to have people from all the various niches attend. 

So what are you trying to say??

Who are you talking to? 

If directed to me, I'm saying he's comparing an event that would have 10 times the attendance of York whether it was open or not to the TCA event, which isn't a fair or equitable comparison. And, since anyone can now join TCA at the door, York is already an open event, for all intents and purposes. 

Membership in an organization should have benefits that aren't available to the public.  One of the biggest TCA benefits is the ability to attend York.  (I have never been there but I hope to go someday.)

I attended the NMRA convention in Portland and the National Train Show.  The National Show was open to NMRA convention attendees on the first half day from 9 to noon.  The public was let in at noon on the first day (Friday) and all the time on Saturday and Sunday.  I was a little bit annoyed by having to compete with kids to see the displays and talk with manufacturers on Friday afternoon.  There weren't very many dealers at the national train show.  

I was only at the train show on Friday because I needed to return home on Saturday.  I don't have any idea what the overall attendance was.  My impression for Friday was that the show was not very well attended.   The national train show does not seem to have the draw that York has even though it is open to the public.  

NH Joe

"What stores?"  There are plenty out there.  Several of them display at York, many more wont do York because it's like selling in a fishbowl.  I live in North Eastern Maryland and there are some great stores that sell O scale with in a couple hour drive.  I also have relatives that live in New York City, New Jersey, Colorado and Pittsburgh.  I have been to most of the dealers that exhibit at York and you can get the same deal in the store as you can by going to York and save the membership dues.  I went to Lionel's page and downloaded all the dealers by State and have a binder in my car with every dealers address listed by the city they are located in.  Some of them sell other scales like N and HO, but most scenery items can cross multiple scales.  I also have Z, N and a small HO set. 

Anyone thinking about the Allentown First Frost? 

Jerry