ZW circuit breaker

Possibly the circuit breaker is weak in the transformer. The circuit breaker is connected to the input of the transformer and not the output. Is the tranformer hot to touch? This transformer should be more than enough since you were running both trains on a 1033.

No the transformer is not hot. But come to think of it I was not running both trains on the 1033. I had one of them running on my original 1950's little 60 watt transformer.

And I just tried turning the accessory light circuit off (voltage turned down to zero and dedicated switch off) and removing 3 lighted passenger cars and the circuit still tripped off after a couple of minutes. No difference at all. Sounds like a transformer problem right?

You need to see how many amps you are pulling on the secondary side of the transformer.Check with an inductive amp meter.About 10 amps is the limit.But first,make sure you don't have a track short.With trains off the track you should have an open circuit between the track feeds with the transformer disconnected.Nick

I have 2 ZWs and a KW.  All will operate many trains without a problem.  As noted above, the circuit breaker may have failed or there may be a short somewhere.   If you pull on the direction coontrol lever, does the green light dim much?  That would be an indication that there is a short on that circuit.  If there is a short in the wiring rather than loco or rolling stock, your problem should occur with no trains on the track.

I would check the tracks again with nothing on them and turn up the power from your ZW all the way and see if the red light comes on again.

You most likely have a short from improper wiring or a shorted piece of track is what I suspect. Check your tracks about six sections at a time if you have a problem or feel the track temperature as a warm or hot section is usually a problem track.

I have a post war ZW and can run about six Williams dual motor diesels with it and six lighted passenger cars with one of the trains.

Lee Fritz

Thanks Lee.   There is no dimming of the green light and no tripping of the breaker when all rolling stock has been removed. Do you think that reliably says I wasn't sold a faulty transformer?

If the wiring is not at fault, and the trains run properly, then the only thing left is a faulty circuit breaker that is tripping at less than rated current. Replace the circuit breaker, and all should work properly.

Larry

How is the transformer's output distributed to the tracks; i.e. how many drops do you use; how are they spaced?

I had a similar problem a few years back. Replacing the circuit breaker solved it.

No, the circuit breaker is on the output, in series with the "U" terminals. If it was on the input, the red "short" indicator would never illuminate.

Thanks Rob, I couldn't remember.

rcf0924 Make sure your wiring is correct to your loops of track you may have one loop opposite then the other. The "U" terminals to outside rails.

Here's a link to a Lionel transformer repair expert not far from you in Shorewood, Il.

http://www.lioneltransformers.com

They should also be at the train show in Wheaton Il. next week.

http://www.greatmidwesttrainshow.com 

franktrain

How long can you run trains before the breaker trips?

  Pop the top, and look close at the ZW's rollers and winding wires, posts and connections. Deeply worn, or deeply sawed, "grooved" windings are bad news. It limits the transformer strength greatly. Finding weaker VW innards is a possibility too. But either should be able to handle two, or more trains.

 Can you run them without lights, and not trip the breaker?

  Do you have more than two locos to test with? One may have an issue.

  Can the tripped breaker be reproduced with any two tracks hooked to the same two handles? (Third disconnected). 

Bad center rail isolators can also cause this without stopping trains, creating heat, or tripping the breaker right away. The weight of the trains running over them causes a temp. short, but it is weakened by motor draw.

Are your circles connected by turnouts? With insulated plastic pins?

  Do you have any track blocks?

Are you using more than one power feed to each loop?

Connect an inline fuse holder across the circuit breaker terminals. If a 10-14 amp

fuse does not blow then the problem is the circuit breaker.

had a friend have a similar problem, breaker would go for absolutely no reason. I replaced the original circuit breaker with one from Radio Shack, he has had no problems since.

Hey all you guys who responded to my question, thanks for the wealth of information. Very helpful. I have been testing the transformer with various loads. I can run a single train indefinitely on either the two interconnected inner loops, or the electrically isolated outer loop all day and the transformer doesn't click off. I ran each of my two loco's singly and separately on each track and both passed that test. This makes me think that it is not a track or wiring problem. Then I put one loco on the outer and one on the middle loop and ran them both without any issue for quite a long time. The inner and middle loop share 5 O22's which are currently picking up track power. There are no switches on the outer loop. Finally I turned the accessory lighting back on. They are guess-timated to be about 20 watts and which is powered by one of the inner circuits of my ZW at 15 volts. Within a few minutes the breaker tripped everything off. Prior to the recent purchase of the ZW I was running the inner loops with a 1033 and the outer loop with my original 60 watt transformer and was not having any issues. This looks to me like indeed the breaker needs to be replaced. I wish I was good enough to try placing that suggested external fuse box on the circuit but I think that is beyond me. Anyone disagree about the breaker being bad at this juncture?

Popi - Would you happen to have a part # for the breaker you used???

As additional commentary I just talked to my local train and hobbyshop guy. He says the ZW will only run 2 trains and its reserve power for accessories is exaggerated. If it tops out at 10 or so amps, he thinks I am probably pulling over that. My lights include a bridge, a large yard light with 2 bulbs and 1 smaller yard light with two smaller bulbs, plus 2 illuminated buildings and small shanty. Plus I took my 3 illuminated passenger cars off the layout! He didnt think I needed a new circuit breaker. He thinks I need to buy an R, Z or V auxilliary transformer to run the switches and lights off of. I got the impression from some of you men that you were running larger layouts than mine with a ZW.

We are.

The ZW breaker is supposed to trip at 15 amps, the transformer is rated at 14 amps continuous output.

On my O-27 layout, I have one ZW powering 4 mixed trains and 12 pairs of 1122 switches and controllers, this is about the limit. The breaker will open with a derailment quickly when the transformer is warm and all trains are running, but will not trip otherwise.

quote:

He thinks I need to buy an R, Z or V auxilliary transformer to run the switches and lights off of.

Soounds like he is trying to sell you more stuff.

The stuff you listed does not sound like much of a load for a ZW, unless you put some unusual light bulbs in those accessories, with a very heavy draw.

Exactly what are your engines? How many lighted passenger cars, and what are they?

By any chance, did he sell you the ZW?

My one concern is your inner and middle loops that are inter-connected. Improper setup and wiring could cause a problem.

Do you have the outside rails connected to the common terminals for all three loops?

Do you have those inner and middle loops connected to the same hot terminal post on the ZW (A,B,C, or D)?

If the answer to these two questions is yes, then you are OK.

If you have the inner and middle loops on different hot terminal posts (A,B,C,D), then you must insulate the center rails of the two loops from each other. Otherwise you will create a short that the interal breaker will not protect and could damage your transformer.

Based on what I've read on this thread, it is likely you do have a bad breaker.
If you had an intermittent short, the train would stop or at least slow down significantly whenever the short occured.

Did you pop the top and check the rollers, as suggested earlier?  If the sliding contact is flattened, it bridges multiple turns of the coil, creating a local circulating current that saps the transformer's output capability.  (On second thought, this circulating current wouldn't flow through the breaker.  It would only cause the transformer to run hot.)

hey, rcf924     dont waste your time.  #1  can you solder ?  if so,   see your local auto parts dealer,  get a 15 amp  plug in breaker ,  6 bucks..   cut out the old pos breaker & solder in the new one.  easy.   1/2 hour time.    by the way,   ADCXROB is  correct !!  the breaker is on the OUTPUT side.    

Problem when we speak of number of trains or number of lamps, is that there is wide variety in current needs.  An old Lionel double-Pulmore motored F3 draws a lot of current; an can-motored loco a lot less. 

Same with lamps.  Instead of guessing at current draw, you may wish to consult this table:  http://www.mts.net/~william5/library/minilamp.htm

I tend to agree with Happy Pappy, that a ZW should be able to run 4 traisn and the lamps you describe.

The ZW internal breaker is thermal--it opens when the flowing current gets hot enough.  I do not know if heat radiating from the coils could ever suffice (before a meltdown) to trigger it.

Personally, I'd solder a wire across its terminals and externally connect all U terminals together and feed them through a 10-amp external manually-resettable breaker.  I would not use an auto breaker, for they reset themselves.  If there's a short, power should not be restored until the operator has investigated and cured the short.  If transformer was inadvertantly left on with a short, the breaker would keep opening and closing until it failed, possibly welding the points closed.

I would also install similar breakers, possibly of lesser ampacity, on the A,B,C, & D posts.

I have 2 ZWs and a KW.  One ZW was bought new 64 years ago, and the other bought used in 1990; I have no intention of replacing them.  I also have a 1941 Type R, and the internal insulation is a bit hard (to say the least).  In 2014, I would avoid anything that old.  If I needed power to run accessories, I'd look into one of the modern power supplies.

I strongly disagree that the postwar ZW is capable of 14 amps continuous. 10.5 is more like it.

Here's a long shot, could the ZW be a VW? The VW looks alike but is only rated at 150 watts at 8 amps? Is there an easy way to verify? 

Bob do you have access to a multimeter you could measure your amperage draw.

franktrain

I run I light 6 buildings, bubbling water tower, hobo camp, gantry crane and 3 switches along with 2 loops with no issues including running passenger cars and pulmore engines. I run 10 amp fast blow fuses and the only time they blow is when something derails.

If anything, I should replace the fuse because it does not trip. MIL pulled one of my proto engines off when I was charging the battery becausing the engine was making noise. The ZW was dead shorted for almost an hour before I found it. The transformer was so hot, you could barely touch the bakelite case. Lionel made a robust transformer.

  Popping the top is only four screws and lift! Rollers and windings must be looked at! Then amperage readings, starting with the lights. I suspect a heavier draw. Adding an automotive inline fuse rated below the ZW breakers intended limits, would give you an indication of the breaker being/going bad if it trips first, before the fuse. And doing it between the track and transformer should not be beyond your limits.

Well Adriatic I'm no electrician, but I looked inside the transformer and didn't like what I saw. First thing was there was a loose piece of (I suppose) insulating material over a poorly soldered connection of the end of the coil. Other joints don't look professionally soldered but they may be OK. I had great trouble identifying the breaker. Nothing in there looks what the picture of the modern reproductions look like. Best as I can tell following one of the wires from the warning light on the left was something on the front left wall of the transformer (as you look from behind it). The modern breakers are not going to replace this particular part so I am doubtful that it is the breaker. The coils were not grooved or the rollers flattened. The rollers are slightly dirty or tarnished.

I enjoy DIY very much as I like to learn, but that's about the limit for me. I bought this ZW on Ebay for about $150 and in this case the picture and "works great" were deceptive.  I made a (another) mistake. For such a purchase I should have examined it first hand or got a refurbished one from a hobby store. The seller claims it worked great when he had it and wants me to get a Lionel service center diagnosis before he will concede a return. That's not really fair so I will pursue that as well as have a local guy look at it and give me his thoughts. In reply to RJR, 10 amps is also what the local train store guy said the ZW could handle. And yes I will get LED bulbs. I was trying to understand what my transformer could (or should) be able to do first. Thanks to everyone.

I have a multimeter but it doesn't measure amps. I'm pretty sure this is a ZW.

quote:

Nothing in there looks what the picture of the modern reproductions look like

Here is a video that shows the insides of a ZW. I did not watch the whole thing, so I have no opinion of his instructions.

I would not expect a postwar ZW to look anything like one of the modern reproductions.

Don't do anything. IMHO, if you do, it's yours to keep.

File a claim with Ebay. In all likely hood, they will force the seller to take it back.

Unless you can diagnose and repair problems yourself, don't buy transformers on Ebay. Go to a legitimate dealer who will stand behind their product.

Maybe the same should go for all trains.

I have sold many transformers over the years, and serviced many more. They are always nice and neat inside when I am done with them.

I'm in a bit of a hurry here but I wanted to mention that you should use a circuit breaker on each train track feed. If sized correctly (smaller amps), the breaker should trip on the part of your layout with a problem while the rest of your layout remains running (think derailment on one track causes all trains to stop). The ZW uses a single breaker for all outputs and will shut down all trains as you have experienced.

quote:

Here's a long shot, could the ZW be a VW? The VW looks alike but is only rated at 150 watts at 8 amps? Is there an easy way to verify?

Could happen. The nameplate is on the top case piece and could easily be swapped. The coils (traansfomer itself)  are visibly smaller on a VW. Perhaps the original poster could compare his to the one shown in the video linked above.

Matt, you are correct, but do be aware that this does not adequately protect the transformer.  If each output, ABC&D, has a 7.5 amp breaker, you could have 30 amps flowing and none would open, but the secondary windings would be overloaded.  This is why I recommend also putting a 10 amp on the combined U posts (which are all connected together internally by a copper buss, which can have poor connections with the terminals).

 Bob, well your on your way to learning some more. I don't know that is the breaker you followed the wire back to. No camera? It is usually kind of buried, but I have seen it moved. A new one may not look anything like this, but will have to be retrofitted in its place. Which isn't very hard there is plenty of room. It will perform in pretty much the same way as the old did.

   A fuse used externally as mentioned, it is an amperage test, at the cost of a few fuses. A small variety of extras 10a,6a,3a(aprox) would be ideal. Its a little cheaper test option than buying an amp reader, or paying for replacing a breaker we "think"(so far) is bad.(but that is under 15$ and you may wish to learn to solder, not hard, the last guy likely had too cool of an iron from the sounds of it). And a fuse is always usable elsewhere, never a waste. Everything else about fuses is pretty much a suggestion as to a good way to add a layout safety feature at this point. Find a definite answer to the issue first.

 Cooked insulation isn't a good thing either, but possible if you are pulling amps hard all the time. Some of the wires involved in this circuit are special "resistance wires" usually white insulation on them. They have a set ohm value per inch and match the circuit with a specified length, and run hot during shorts. Is that your semi-cooked wiring maybe? On a VW, that heated wire can be found encircled around a ZW breaker so it trips sooner(they ran out of VW breakers on production.) I bet messing with that wiring length is the most common mistake by a non train, but otherwise electrically qualified repairman. 

FYI- There are early ZWs with slightly less power too, ZW-R on the bottom base plate is the bigger one. But, I grew up double, and triple heading PW FM Trainmasters hauling 20+, and ABA all powered War bonnets pulling a dozen lit passenger cars, left yard lights on the little left lever, right town lights on the little right lever, all at the same time, while visiting Gramps. Something is amiss, run the lights on that 1033 for a bit if you still have it and "have to run". Guessing at current draw isn't enough anymore. Id have to run lights + 4, overloaded locos, and floor them all from a dead stop to pull a full 10amp trip on my KW, or prewar Z.  (+8 lighted switches, 14 scenery bulbs, & lit cabooses) I fished these photos off the net.

Old Breaker          New breaker

FYI-This is a modern whistle diode, If you have a big silver/copper "washer", that is the original whistle rectifier disk.

VW and ZW. AND there are two ZWs, one at 250 watts and one at 275 watts.

RJR has it right.

That cooked insulation is also an indication of the possible state of that breakers points, and heat damaged brass internals. The wire may still be fine but need new insulation.

FYI:  Neither of my ZWs has a plate on the back, above the terminals.

Adriatic, I opened up my 1941 Type R to replace the line cord, and found that much of the insulation is dried and hard, but intact.  Probably the effect of age on rubber of that vintage has had an effect.  Of course, using a 100-watt transformer during the late 40's and early 50s to run 2 locos plus lights and accessories could have had an effect.

Given the type of material used 60-70 years ago for insulation, in 2014 I'd be wary of anything of that vintage, including R, V, Z, ZW, VW, unless I personally opened it and inspected it.  Reading the various posts about power supplies, it appears to be that there is a market for a brick with output in the 14-16 volt range, which would be suitable for lighting and accessories.

Adriatic, thanks for the continuing education. I didn't see anything that looked like either of those breaker pics you sent in my transformer. Could it be underneath the coil? The transformer has the ZW name plate on the top, but not above the terminals as in your included photo. From the looks of the cover, there never was a plate back there as there are no screw holes. 

It's hard for me to give up, so I kept fooling around this morning. Like you, an insomniac. I took all the 5 O22's off the ZW by inserting unpowered voltage plugs in each one. This removed 10 bulbs from the load. I also had switched the accessory lights to the 16 V tap on the 1033. Further I found that one of the O22's was causing occasional derailments and a bumpy pass because the slide rail was sitting lower than the level of the rest of the track. I replaced that with another one and that is looking good. I was only able to run two locomotives with one pulling 3 modern (lower power requirements) illuminated passenger cars for about 5 minutes before once again the transformer breaker shut me down. Has to be something wrong with it. I got some good advice from  CW so I am filing a claim with Ebay and hope to be able to return this and start over, even if it means paying 250-300 for one that has been properly overhauled. The thing is this has given me doubts about whether the transformer is right for me period,  and whether I'll still end up needing auxiliary power sources. I just don't see how mine is some huge layout.