Bad luck or state of the hobby?

Charlie posted:

Tiffany posted:

"If you want trouble free trains ,"Postwar" is a way to go and there is plenty of parts for it too. "

If the "postwar" trains are trouble free, why would you need extra parts? Come to think of it, why were there so many service centers during the postwar period if the trains were so trouble free?

Charlie

Hello Charlie

Because many of the postwar sets were not treated or well cared for and some ended up in the trash or abused as kids were rough on them I know this as I was one of them that's why.  Kids are kids...... I am a grown woman and don't do these things anymore.  The newer trains cannot take the abuse as well and they cost lot more to have it repaired if abused or by rough handling its worse if has electronics inside.  Charlie would you let a 5 year old play with your 1000 dollar heavy die-cast steamer ? I think not.   By the way I have a Orange tabby cat name "Charlie Brown" he's a sweetheart !!!!!!

Tiffany

Dave Zucal posted:

Now that most of the electronics have a way of keeping track of the mileage, wouldn't it be great if the warranty was like an automobile and the manufacturer gave buyers a warranty based on mileage.

We would still run out of warranty on the calendar, even the auto makers use Time/Mileage conditions in their warranty terms, 3 years/30,000 miles, whichever comes FIRST. With automobiles, they are typically used often enough that many/most defects become apparent during the warranty period. For the mileage portion of the warranty  terms to be meaningful, the Time portion of the warranty terms would need to be increased substantially, many/most of us just don't run our trains enough for the mileage terms of a warranty to come into play.

 Now if it were Time/Mileage, whichever were GREATER, many of us would have Lifetime warranties on our trains, that would be Great, but it AIN'T gonna happen.

Nice Idea though,

Doug

Charlie posted:

Tiffany posted:

"If you want trouble free trains ,"Postwar" is a way to go and there is plenty of parts for it too. "

If the "postwar" trains are trouble free, why would you need extra parts? Come to think of it, why were there so many service centers during the postwar period if the trains were so trouble free?

Charlie

Don't forget, even though postwar trains are more reliable, but they need more maintenance such as cleaning motors, resolving sticky e-units, clogged up smoke units. 

It just goes to show here that many of us feel we've outgrown our vintage trains and therefore desire something more technologically savvy. With that in mind, to get one thing, you kind of have to give something up. More detailed trains with hundreds more parts, a lot more features that we could ever dream up as kids, these engines have become are a lot more fragile. Naturally an ample supply of replacement parts will become problematic. You just can't have it both ways.

Ah the Postwar Trouble Free argument. 

I have nothing against PW but let's face it, the PW trains do much less, no sound, and less detail.  If that's what you are into that's great.  100% great.  It's not everyone's cup of tea and many of us like the sounds, action, and features that the newer electronics offer.  With additional complexity comes additional set of issues.  I wish that weren't the case but it is.  Someday maybe.  The PW vs. modern is just not a valid comparison when you start stack feature vs feature.

Bad luck or state of the hobby?  Your mileage will vary.  There is a large group that have had little or no issues.  They brag about it every chance they get.  Then there is the crowd like myself that have had issues but nothing major and not many.   Then the folks that have had nothing but bad luck.  Yikes.

Don't forget, even though postwar trains are more reliable, but they need more maintenance such as cleaning motors, resolving sticky e-units, clogged up smoke units. 

I knew it was only a matter of time before folks would bring up Postwar Lionel. This thread was supposed to be about current product, wasn't it?
Regardless:

 Smoke units don't clog up if they aren't grossly overfilled. That is, if folks follow the directions postwar Lionel published. Can the same be said about current smoke units? They do more, but they are very unreliable.

The biggest cause of sticky e-units is dirt. Some folks, believing that anything that moves requires lubrication, oil or grease them. Other folks over lubricate nearby bearings, and some of that lubricant ends up in the e-unit. Either way, the lubricant attracts dirt and gets gummy. Then there are the trains that are subject to poor storage.

As for cleaning motors, at least they are serviceable.
The last modern era, canned motored loco that was on my bench had a bad motor that was drawing excessive current. The excessive current draw killed the control board. The motor was obsolete and could only be found in a service station's stock of old parts. Add the cost of the control board, and the engine wasn't worth fixing.

Finally, parts for most prewar and postwar Lionel trains were available DECADES after they were last made.

I guess it's clear from this post which trains I prefer.
To each their own!

I was waiting  for this to come up and, I agree, there have always been a bunch of Lionel repair shops and parts. The old ones needed fixed too. But they are repairable today at a reasonable cost. A shop owner I talked to was proud to tell me that he could get a board repaired for only $230 !  I said that is more than I spend on an engine.  Two different worlds.  When I was a kid my mother would give me an old soup spoon and I would build roads in the dirt for my cars and trucks. We used our imagination.

Started back in the hobby full tilt twenty years ago.  It is the dirty little secret of the modern equipment. My failure and send back rate has been very high.  My first high priced steamer had no sound.  Sent it back and was told "sound is normal" they could "find no issues".  I opened the tender and the wires were never soldered to the speaker.  On and on I could go.  I now feel "stuck" with dozens of high tech engines.  Before I retired I was replacing 2 to 3 hundred dollar boards on a regular basis on engines that were hardly run.  One modern diesel I have paid for almost three times in replacing bad sound boards and it has been run less than four hours total.  It is like a hidden secret to discuss this issue but I ran from any new purchases.  I buy firearms instead.  Never ever an issue there.  Also another route to take is post war or just craftsman scenery kits.  Very enjoyable.  But the new stuff.  What a waste of money it all was.  I am now dealing with dozens of passenger cars reefers (which I thought were safe) blowing apart and destroying themselves from the warping and twisting metal floors.  It is beyond shocking that this metal could do this.  So....I personally am tired of being taken and stick to craftsman kits, postwar and scenery as the spectrum of my hobby.  Anyone skeptical of this just email a note and I will send you photos of the warped and twisted metal floors in many of my modern rolling stock cars or passenger cars.

Take care and thanks for allowing my input.

John

I guess it depends on when you grew up, what you had, what your expectations were. We had radio to listen to and a newspaper and magazines to read. WE made our own sound effects, be it planes, cars, trains, guns, bombs or what ever. No smoke because fire was bad.  I still have old B&W photos of my old toy soldiers fighting WW II.   Still have some of the soldiers. We didn't get much and only at Xmas and birthday so we made guns, planes, trains and cars out of whatever we had or could scrounge.  We had fun and didn't have to be afraid to walk the streets at night. It was fun, wouldn't change anything. The cops were your friend and we didn't need grief counselors at school or locked doors and guards. Enjoy your fancy  trains and I will enjoy my old Lionels and Marx.

Johnshorse, I would like to see the pics you have of the metal warpage if you don't mind.  My email is in my profile.  Couldn't find an email for you in your profile.  Thanks

Comparing Pre- and Post-War to today's whiz-bang electronic marvels in the repairability category reminds me of the peer discussion comparisons to the automobile.  

About 40 years ago, or so, we departed the realm of the so-called 'shade tree mechanic' in getting ol' Bessy back on the road.  Once there was an on-board board-from-which-the-smoke-should-never-be-released,  it was game-over.  And our penchant for regulations, litigations, global corporation mutations, and electronic sensations took us down a path where our interdependence...and sales of Valium...would become increasingly commonplace.  In fact, those nice-looking automobiles from a by-gone age seen in recent footage of today's Cuba?......(sigh)....have a special nostalgic appeal to an old phart like the self, who watched Dad whistle while he lovingly worked on the family car.

Conventional.  Works for me.  No Valium required.  Fewer trips to the shipper or shop, also.

KD

Lenny the Lion posted:

Charlie posted:

Tiffany posted:

"If you want trouble free trains ,"Postwar" is a way to go and there is plenty of parts for it too. "

If the "postwar" trains are trouble free, why would you need extra parts? Come to think of it, why were there so many service centers during the postwar period if the trains were so trouble free?

Charlie

Don't forget, even though postwar trains are more reliable, but they need more maintenance such as cleaning motors, resolving sticky e-units, clogged up smoke units. 

It just goes to show here that many of us feel we've outgrown our vintage trains and therefore desire something more technologically savvy. With that in mind, to get one thing, you kind of have to give something up. More detailed trains with hundreds more parts, a lot more features that we could ever dream up as kids, these engines have become are a lot more fragile. Naturally an ample supply of replacement parts will become problematic. You just can't have it both ways.

hello Lenny the Lion

You say it all !!!!!!!!!!! very well said !!!!

Tiffany

Sure, I will be glad to forward the pictures.  They are very sad.  Metal just twisted and curled up, breaking plastic bodies.  A fellow in my club took detailed photos of the destruction and I will contact him for digital images.  I have no idea why nobody has considered a class action lawsuit against these companies.  They **** well know that they are peddling junk upon us for high prices.  I have no love for lawyers, actually despise them, but I have seen class action lawsuits against manufacturers in my profession for much less.  How do you initiate a class action lawsuit?  Frankly, I would just like to recover all the expensive UPS fees sending this stuff back and forth and, of course, the thousands in complete destruction from the twisted and broken metal floors of the doomed freight and passenger cars.