2 Rail GG1 2332

I have converted many Lionel. MTH Weaver and Williams scale length GG-1 models to 2 rail for the past several years. I have never converted an original Lionel short GG-1 to 2 rail and would not consider doing so as the originals have some collector value as they are.  I do not see a scale modeler wanting a stubby GG-1 for a scale two rail layout.

Joe Foehrkolb

As Joe mentions, the original Lionel GG1 is grossly undersized for the scale O.   It is also not a very correct profile - ie too stubby looking.    So basically it is not a model of anything real.

 It was common for O scalers to convert 3 rail locos to 2 rail, mostly prior to WWII.   There was not much available in those days and the modelers were not as critical of scale size.   Postwar the LIonel F units, GP7, and Trainmaster were pretty much scale size.    There may be some others.

I doubt there is much value in the GG1 you have.   Since the Lionel engines have come, many scale proportioned models have been made.    Most 2 railers would prefer the better scale models.   Most Lionel collectors would not want the loco converted as it is.    It would have the most value as a parts source for a lionel collector in my opinion.

thanks for the help, i wounder if i can actually convert it back to 3 rail O. Then hopefully it will be worth something to the right person. i would love to restore it and get it back to its original look. 

The Lionel GG1's (and I believe the other Lionel electrics, too) were set up so that you could run them from overhead wire. That may be the case with your unit if it still has the original large flanges and wide wheel treads. It can be converted back by re-installing the pickup rollers and moving the third rail wire(s) from the lug(s) at the top of the shell and re-connecting them to the pickup roller leads.

As others have stated above, Lionel's GG1's aren't usually converted because they're undersized.

Hello Joe, Reading these few paragraphs set off my Spidey Senses! I know about your wheel conversions, but on a scale MTH GG-1? I have one of these cast bodied beasts and have spent countless hours looking at it's ugly, highly undersized but nicely detailed 3 rail drivers.

I read on the Forum here about someone who ground down the 3 rail wheels into a likable semblance of a scale looking wheel. But, in doing this to the GG-1 drivers, all the cast in quill drive detail would go away, and that aint' acceptable.

So, did MTH offer these motors in a 2 rail option back in the late 90's, and if they did, was the drive detail available on these wheels? Sunset has a real beautiful GG-1, but from what I could see of their wheels, they looked to be a scale size but had no drive detail. Kinda' like looking at a steam engine driver. All spokes.

Along with the GG-1, I have it's big brother, the New Haven EF-3b which shares a common wheel with the G. I've scale wheeled (36") the pilot trucks on both with no problems, but these darn drivers, that's another story. Bill Lester 

the GG1 does make a good display to explain 3-rail model compression, though.

Bill Lester

Here's a MTH Scale GG1. joe did th drivers, I did the electrical pickups, four wheel trucks and the simulated drop couplers. I kept the DCS, and it has been in regular use on my layout.  The carbody is a bit short, and the frames are articulated. Other than that its a pretty decent model.

Basement Bill, 

The scale GG-1 modesl were produced at different times with different quill drivers.  Earlier ones have  sintered iron drivers with the wuill driver detail cast into their face but are solid with no openings other than the axle hole.  This is how the Williamms and Weaver drivers were made.  Later MTH and Lionel scale GG-1 models have a diecast quill driver with better detail and opernings in the face of the wheels similat to the real drivers.  Either type can be machined to a scale profile and width by machining new steel tires for the centers after the old flanges are machined off of the centers,  I install 0.010" thick "fish paper" insulation between the new steel tires and the centers on one side of the engine to insulate it for 2 rail operation.  Phosphor bronze wipers formed from 0.008" phosphor bronze sheet pickup power fron the insulated tires.  This is not a five minute job and requires the use of a good metal lathe and a fews special tools to hold the work and get everything back together.

As you can see from John's photo, they make nice 2 rail models.

Joe Foehrkolb

how did you deal with the pilot trucks?

plastic wheels?

No plastic wheels.  Replaced them with 33" NWSL steel wheel sets with blunt axles insulated for 2 rail.  They fit right into the bronze bearings in the pilot trucks.

Joe

Hello again Joe, Yeah, NWSL came thru for me on my pilot wheels also. Interesting in your choice of 33" over the prototype 36"'s. What's really irritating with these MTH drive wheels is the lack of depth in their wheel detail castings. I'm no mold maker, but if MTH had just gone with a plain spoke style driver, they could have made a plastic insert of the drive quills. What's irritating is, if you look at the catalog picture of their HO scale GG-1 it has beautiful drivers. Howz come the HO'er's get all the better details in a smaller scale? Bill Lester

Basement Bill,

The 33" wheels allow the installation of Kadee couplers on the pilots without any spacer blocks.  Also, I found on the Williams conversions that the pilots would scrape the bottom of the carbody with 36" wheels installed.

As far as the wheel castings, the later MTH and Lionel GG-1 models have a much improved diecast driver with good detail.  I was using House of Duddy lost wax drivers to convert these models while I could get them, but once machined, the newer diecast drivers look and work just fine.  For that matter, once the solid sintered iron solid drivers are installed behind the GG-1 sideframes you really have to look close to see them.  For the low cost of a scale Williams GG-1, they fill the need for a scale length GG-1 quite nicely for many modelers.  The sintered iron drivers can be difficult to machine.  They seem to have hard spots in them.  I have to use a carbide tool to machine them.  My overall driver width is 0.160" as opposed to the approximate 0.250" of the hi rail drivers.  With scale flanges this makes a big difference in their appearance.

Joe Foehrkolb

Baldwin Forge & Machine

I think I have a limited supply of the Duddy castings.  Not for sale, but good trading material?

I have used simple cast-Iron spoked wheels on a GG1, and for the life of me, I cannot see the difference without a flash light and Granny glasses.

joe's comment about machining brings to mind my P&S 0350 - I did not opt for shouldered axles, and had to invent a tool post grinder to get the wheels true.  Dealing with press- fits on skinny axles is not something I am good at.  It takes a fixture.

Doorstops all:

Hi Bob, From where did you get the spoked drive wheels for your GG-1 and did they fit the stock drive axles? Was yours a Williams or MTH? Right now, there's a full set of beautiful House of Duddy GG-1 drivers for sale on eBay and I'm afraid to bid on them. $$$$$ ?  Bill

I forget.  They were rough castings - cast iron.  Post a link and I will look at the Duddy deals.  The Duddy wheels are difficult to get on the axles straight without a fixture.

Basement Bill,

House of Duddy GG-1 drivers, when they were somewhat readily availble ffrom Ed Duddy sod for $130.00 for a set of 12 machined, 6 rim inuslated for 2rail.  That was a bargain in my opinion and when I could acquire them, Iused them to convert MTH GG-1 and New Haven electrics to 2 rail.  Most of the time I just remachine the factory provide drivers, Lionel, MTH, Weaver or Williams.  I press the axles onto the wheels on the lathe with the wheel supported by a steel cup held in a three jaw chuck that fits the face of the driver and sets it on center with the tailstock that holds a piece of drii rod with a tapered hole in its end that fits around various izes of axles.  Works every time.

Joe Foehrkolb

Baldwin Forge & Machine

My OPINION here, but unless you do all the work yourself, I seriously doubt you will recoup your investment. The collector will not be interested because of ALL the restoration/lack of originality. That leaves the 3R operator. The question there is, can you restore it to what someone would want with room to make a buck. I'd sell it as is and let the new owner worry about it, except maybe if you were adept at painting. My 2 cents.

Good Luck!

Simon