2 Rail or 3 Rail ?

WOW!!! Yes and no.  3 rail is typically AC power.  2 rail is typically DC power.  You can run 2 rail cars on 3 rail track but you can't run 3 rail cars on 2 rail track dep
ending on the type of wheels on the car.  Scale wheels or hi-rail wheels.

I'm tired now...going to take a nap.

Rick

Wow!  Like many things in life, this requires some study.  We could give you a simple answer, but you would be no smarter afterward.  Good luck with your studies.

If you are interested in prototypical (real) trains, then you will probably want to look at 2 rail. If you want to pursue the toy side, go 3 rail. Three rail is easier to find than 2 rail, but it's all out there if you look. Your best bet might be to get on you tube and look at both and see which you prefer. There are plenty of videos of each to look at.  2 and 3 rail are for the most part not compatible. This is the readers digest version, but you have to start somewhere.

 

Simon

Thanks Simon

Yea the stuff I have is MTH and I looked at the box ends and it doesn't say if it is or isn't 2 or 3 rail so I'm guessing it must be 3 rail. Also thanks to you other guys as well.

Stan

 

HEY STAN,

 

Three-rail track is unrealistic.  You don't see it on real railroads.

 

Two-rail track is realistic.  You see it on real railroads.

 

So if you want your model railroad to look like a real railroad, then you know which way to go.

 

That's it!

BAD ORDER HAL

 

 

 

3-rail looks strange.  It's not railroading.  The wheels don't look right on the locomotives and the cars. 

Every day I thank the heavens I chose 2-rail.

Aw, Hal....!   There ya go a'gin  Now m' feelin's is hoit!  Why'd ya hafta try 'n make me regrets m' basement full of 3-rail trains????

 

 

 

KD

 

...gonna go pour me 'nuther glass of merlot!

 

 

PS...I just ventures over heah t' "The Dark Side of O" to see if there's any tolerance left!!

 

Nope, not today!

 

 

 

Hey Rail Dawg,

 

AMEN, BROTHER!

 

Bad Order

 

DKDKRD, Don't do that when I 'm drinking something. I almost ruined a nice little lap top!

It's well within my NMRA gauge......

And, iff that is the case, then I suggest that you might invest in "Guide To Modern O Scale – 2nd Edition" from O Scale Trains.

 

That's right, DKDKRD...listen to MWB!

 

And remember...the word is "O SCALE", not "O GAUGE"! 

 

Yup Yup Yup!

 

Bad Order

Jump in! 2 rail is the way to go.

He has a legitimate question, but the answer is not here.  A partial answer is the suggestion to buy the OST primer, but the best way is to do that and also buy the equivalent OGR primer.

 

I suggest the following:  hold off, and do not ask us to make the decision for you.  Instead, subscribe to both OST and OGR magazines for a year.  Read each one cover to cover, including the advertisements.  You will then be able to make an intelligent decision - possibly after reading the first pair!

 

Opinion - I have no facts.

Three is where it's at, the third rail is where all the fun is. 2 rail = serious, 3rail = train fun. Don't let these 2 railers convince you theirs is the way to go. If you're into modeling and prototypes and railroad operating then 2 rail is for you if you just like trains and want to have fun building and playing and getting all kinds of neat operating accessories then you need to get the third rail. 

because I can see them

 

Go "G" Gauge, it's very easy to see

 

I'm 3-rail but I've replaced the lobster-claw couplers with Kadee couplers and fixed the pilots on all my engines so they don't swing with the trucks as the engine goes around a curve.  There's another sub-forum called "3 Rail Scale" that uses 3-rail track, but from track level up we try to make things as real looking as we desire.

 

To me (opinion as bob2 says) there's 3 "styles" of modeling:

 

1 - Toy train route using 3-rail track and ready-to-run equipment

 

2 - Semi-protoypical route (3-Rail Scale) using 3-rail track and equipment that comes with more detail or can be modified to have more/better detail

 

3 - Prototypical route (2-rail) using 2-rail track and equipment that comes with more detail or can be modified to have more/better detail

 

If you want to achieve a more scale appearance in your railroad you need to pay attention to every engine and piece of rolling stock you buy.  Most all makers offer different product lines that cover from the toy train to the prototype.

 

It's all fun, just choose which direction you want to go, AFTER reading up on all aspects of O gauge/scale model railroading.

Not a bad suggestion since that will foster an independent process.  I would have suggested an OGR primer (if there is such a thing), but I doubt it would be even handed.

More mythology....  

 

Both are number of rails indifferent.

Exactly!  Well said.

Like many things in life it's a personal choice and no one can answer it for you. But, it sounds like you're a newbie to model trains in general, not just O gauge/scale. If that is the case, just go to any hobby shop and pick up a copy of just about any model train magazine and you will be surprised at how many of your questions are answered. 

 

Butch

 

HEY STAN,

 

Don't let us 2-railers influence you...just do as we advise!

 

After consulting all the O-Gauge/O-Scale Magazines, Primers, and Videos, then come back to what your conscience and your heart tells you that the only way to go for realism is: TWO RAIL!

 

BAD ORDER HAL

 

 

 

GREAT, JOHN!

 

Then work on a way that looks like your railroad room was trashed due to accident or fire...you know what they call this, this of course:  INSURANCE FRAUD!

 

It's best that you get rid of your entire empire on Ebay.

 

BAD ORDER HAL

 

I have 3 rail.    I just love the look of "toy trains". If you have any interest in running postwar, then 3 rail for you.  If you want realism, then go two rail.  I may be wrong, but I think there are more things being produced for 3 rail than two.  I know this-if you go to a train show, it will be packed with 3 rail stuff!  

Over the years, I have modeled in most all of the scales from "N" to "G", including forays into narrow gauge such as On3, Sn3, and most recently On30, but never anything in 3 rail up to now. Recently, I have found the "Plug & Play" aspect of recent 3 rail scale and near-scale equipment to be appealing, so my long time dislike of that 3rd rail has diminished somewhat, though I still have little or no interest in conventional 3-rail toy trains that are not scale looking.

 

All of the sizes and gauges I have tried up to now have been fun, and that's the point. If the appearance of that middle rail bothers you greatly, then go to 2-rail. If you can't stand the big clunky bear-claw couplers but can live with the oversized rail and pizza cutter wheels, go Hi-rail or scale 3-rail. If the coupler & wheel appearances don't bother you you, then go 3-rail. It's strictly a matter of personal choice, as long as you are HAVING FUN...

 

Bill in FtL

 

No, you're not wrong, Baemr...there ARE far more trains and accessories being produced for 3-rail than for 2-rail, and there's a good reason for it!

 

Non-discriminating model railroaders with insufficient room for prototypical large radii curves will go for 3-rail.

 

BAD ORDER HAL  [Two-rails to my grave!]

 

          [click to enlarge]

Basically, there is O gauge and O scale. Unfortunately, the two are all-to-often used interchangeably on eBay and other sites.

 

O Scale is the proportion and, since you're coming from H.O., this should be your focus. There are O scale "purists" who, accurately, include the track as part of the equation. Then there are the OS3R (O Scale on 3-Rail)/hi-rail operators like myself (though I also have pure 2-rail equipment.)

 

Since you're starting out, there really is no practical reason you should pick 3-rail over 2-rail unless your space is seriously restricted.

 

Atlas, and Weaver make scale-sized equipment in both 2-rail and 3-rail and it is clearly labeled as such. 2-rail rolling stock will work perfectly on good 2-rail track work, and pretty well on good 3-rail track work (flat-top rail like Atlas, Gargraves, amd MTH ScaleTrax). On 3-rail turnouts, you may have some problems with the frogs on #6 and above or curved turnouts. 3-rail equipment will NOT work on a 2-rail layout.

 

MTH is an oddball in this mix. MTH primarily makes 3-rail equipment. The wild card is that MTH also makes many of its Premier line diesel locomotives with scale wheels (fixed pilots on the diesels.) The fun part here (and I personally love this) is that the locomotives available with scale wheels (and their hi-rail versions) can switch between 2-rail and 3-rail operation and alternate wheelsets are available. Several MTH Steam locomotives are also available with scale wheels and can operate in either 2-rail or 3-rail mode, but don't have interchangeable wheelsets. All MTH rolling stock so far (with a couple of special run exceptions) are hi-rail out of the box, but MTH sells replacement trucks with scale wheels (just did one a few days ago).

 

MTH also ratcheted things up a bit by making their locomotives operable under AC, DC, DCS (MTH Proprietary command system) and DCC (more common in 2-rail operations). I recently got a chance to run one of my favorite diesels under DCC and it worked great right out of the box.

 

The ONE major advantage of 3-rail at this point is space. Everything produced to date to run on 3-rail track will negotiate a 36" radius (O-72 in 3-rail speak). That means you can have that UP Big Boy and run it on 36" radius instead of 72" radius. It will look a bit strange, but hey, fun is fun.

 

The old issues regarding reverse loops, wyes, etc. that gave 3-rail an electrical advantage have pretty much been eliminated with reasonably priced electronic components.

 

If you buy 2-rail scale cars with Kadee couplers, you do have to be mindful of the curve size. You're not going to run an 85-foot passenger car on a 36" mainline curve. But your 60-foot box cars will work fine. My new rolling stock purchases are exclusively 2-rail and I'm converting others even though I run at a 3-rail club. They look better, roll better, and are less prone to false-uncoupling problems. The down side is I have to be a lot more careful when setting up the train due to weight distribution issues.

 

I pretty much concur with the posts above. Do more research, assess your available space (and the type of layout operation you want to do) and the answer will come to you. The bottom line is it's your railroad and you should enjoy yourself.

 

As for me, I live in both worlds for now and I'm having a good time.

 

    Stan, 

      Definitely do some research. If you're new to model railroading then do a lot

    of research. I liked the idea Simon had about checking out some videos on 

    Youtube. There are plenty on both 2 rail and 3 rail. Since this is the 2 rail

    forum here is a 2 rail video that gives you an idea of what's possible. Best

    of luck.

 

          Geoff

 

         http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCo1hVRcICM

 Listen, look at a three rail diesel engine at a hobby store. If the floating pilot with a gap between the steps doesn't bother you:

 If the oversize couplers that are G scale sized doesn't bother you:

 If the huge wheel flanges that can double on Fridays cutting pizza doesn't bother you:

Then buy three rail. Heck they sell curves so sharp you can make a layout on top of your dresser.

I won't mention hiding the middle rail by painting it black!!

 (and I have three rail trains too)

And a few more 2R videos, courtesy of Don Smith (you may want to peruse his YouTube channel for more):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTLRzQmLK4M&list=UU5QeuIT_woHxFjVylMo2YZQ

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbmdbhBsglo&list=TLTD9_J9SBPm30SnDt4AJ_dUrScUCUn_og

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-z8wA1L77k&list=TL6bVVQ-vkzpKzFmWTp4ClZEcZ5NiqfPPi

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEwXBe9UHkY&list=UU5QeuIT_woHxFjVylMo2YZQ

 

 

 

 

The 2-rail vs 3-rail conflict will go on like the perennial Ford vs Chevy battle, with one exception: 

 

Both Ford and Chevrolet make good cars and trucks that look great on the road!

 

Bad Order Hal

Everybody knows that Chevy are the best, they must run on three rails

Always had Fords - a '50 convert in high school, and now two 1965 Mustang Converts, both red.  Spectacular autos.  2003 Ford Ranger - convinced me to never, ever buy another Ford product until all the engineers are replaced.  Looks great.  Otherwise totally unsat.  Opinion.

 

HEY BOB,

 

I had a Ford in high school too...a 1936 fordor, with 85HP flathead V-8 and mechanical brakes! (Ford didn't get juice brakes until 1939)  The car was the same age as me! (17)

 

I stripped 2nd gear in a drag race and bought a used transmission at a wrecking yard for 8 bucks!  Did the switch myself.

 

Those were the days! (1953)

Bad Order Hal

 

 

My only observation is there are many folks that convert 3-rail to 2-rail but never the vice-versa.

 

 

Most definitely!!

There are those who have gotten away with running 2-rail rolling stock on sufficiently well-constructed 3-rail track.

I myself have considered purchasing and converting some 2-rail interurban equipment (i.e. streetcars on steroids), the biggest obstacle being the complete lack of appropriately sized separate-sale 3-rail power trucks.

 

---PCJ

Count me as converted. Two rail trains and track are a new level of satisfaction.

The price of playing poker in 2-R is large radius curves, because most anything (other than traction) is going to take a 36" radius curve, which means a turnaround curve is going to take a 7'wide space when allowing for equipment clearances. 

 

That's  minimum...a lot of equipment will require a much larger curve, including most steam locomotives. O scale layouts with curve radii of 60" and 72" are not uncommon.

 

Pretty much everything in 3-R will run on a 36" radius curve (072), and many fairly large steam locomotives with go around an 054 diameter curve, which is 27" radius. 

 

That's the big difference--3-R is more space friendly than 2-R, and that's why a lot of people put up with the three rail track.

It can be argued that there is nothing in 2-R that can't be converted to run on smaller radius curves, but be prepared to tinker in order to make it happen, and tinkering with an expensive 2-R locomotive can be a bit intimidating For many of us....

 

Jeff C

This is your very first post on the forum? You might want to start out by telling us what experience you have in model railroading so far. And tell us something about your available space and budget for a possible model railroad project. All very relevant.

 

If you have any other model railroading experience, it would be useful to outline that for a starting point.

Another thing to consider, the price is not only in space, but you can't find inexpensive 2 rail.  Now, all our budgets are different, and to many that may not be an obstacle, but my total hobby budget for a year is in the 200-300 dollar range.  You can't even begin to touch 2 rail O with that.  3 rail, on the other hand, if you shop around-you can find good deals and engines under $100.

 

Hello,

 

I'm a 37-year Aerospace retiree, with an annual hobby budget of $2500-$3000, but since I dropped out of my expensive Astronomy hobby, I can now afford high-priced O-Scale 2-Rail equipment, which now seems easily affordable compared to the thousands I used to spend on large, high-tech Astronomical-grade telescopes, eyepieces, filters, and such.

 

[Always try to get enough money together to go 2-Rail...you'll be glad you did!]

 

BAD ORDER HAL

 

More mythology..... 

 

In the past 2 months, I've bought 2 Weaver engines for under $175 total.  You can get pretty decent cars for as little as $10-20 ea at swap meets.

Ok, I stand corrected-do you mind telling me how you obtained engines that inexpensive?  

Modelers are in extinction, for those prices you can find something, agree with you, but if you want more details there is two ways or you add or you pay for. if you pay for the price will be a lot higher IMO.

Stan,

1. Put your email in your profile so if anyone wants to contact you off of the forum they can.

 

2. What area do you live in. With that, others can invite you over to see, touch and hopefully operate to get a grasp on the differances in 2 rail or 3 rail. There is no substituition for hands on, seeing what were talking about.

If space is a consideration, don't rule out HO scale. Same fun and enjoyment, just smaller.

 

3. After seeing and operating you'll have a much better understanding of which direction interests you.

 

These three things can be done in a weekend. 

The last two 2-rail engines I bought were under $250 each (shipped) -- one was brand new (Sunset brass 44-tonner); the other was almost new (an MTH Heritage Unit).  My 2-rail rolling stock hasn't been any more expensive than the 3-rail I had been buying previously.

 

Bargains are out there. You just have to be in the right place at the right time. Now if I can only get my hands on an MTH SP, WP, or DRGW UP Heritage SD70ACe with scale wheels/fixed pilots.

 

HEY CHRISTOPHER,

 

Congrats of making the wise move!

 

Check out these examples of my 2-rail trackage...could 3-rail ever come close to being this beautiful and realistic?

 

BAD ORDER

Oh yeah, he definitely is making the N&W proud. 

 

There is one sure-fire way to allow for more hobby funds.....QUIT GOING TO STARBUCKS!

 

Bad Order

 

Now that NP power is gorgeous!!! 

You know,I think you may have a point there...

 

Mark in Oregon

Incongruous.  Everything is drop-dead gorgeous - locomotives, scenery, ballast, everything.  But the track.

 

We are in 2- rail because we think track is part of the model.  Very few 2-railers achieve what Jerry has done, but we have more realistic track and wheels.  Doesn't make us better - just more realistic track.

 

I always say - if you like the looks of three rail track, go for it.  It is a hobby, and there are no rules.

Usually your 2 cents is worth ~$37 and the loose change under the sofa cushions...but that all goes to tuition bills.

 

How many rails are under your engines and cars?  You chose what......

 

"OPNION"?   Must be the VA monsoon season,

 

 

That is certainly a beautiful photo essay!

 

The scenery and trackside detailing, as well as the locos and rolling stock, were all so realistic, I thought I was looking at pictures of a REAL railroad!

 

 

          .....then I noticed the track.....

 

 

It's like General Eisenhower in his class A 5-Star Uniform, wearing thong sandals!

 

BAD ORDER

Un-weathered 2 rail track and equipment on a table top layout doesn't capture the look and feel of railroading as much as the beautiful 3 rail layouts examples above. It's more than just the track.  But that said consider how much better those outstanding railroads would look with 2 rail track using scale sized rail and ties.  Today this is possible with virtually the same amount of effort and cost using commercially available track and rolling stock. 

 

 Space constraint is an often cited reason to go 3 rail as most out of the box rolling stock can handle  "O-72" (36"radius curves).   But as Bob2 has pointed out on several occaisions - there is nothing magic about the center rail (or grossly high rail and fat ties) that makes operation of large locomotives on tight curves possible.  I wonder what the market reaction would be if MTH offered a complete 2 rail product line designed for 36" radius curves rather than going head to head against Lionel in 3 rail. 

 

Ed Rappe

The three rail track really stands out to me in the photos posted above. It doesn't mean I don't appreciate the trains and scenery.

 

I'll give Jerry credit that he didn't try to hide the track by fudging the angle. That stuff is just in your face.

I think just I felt a serious ripple across the space-time framework of this universe.........

 

Bob Turner may be illustrious, but he doesn't know how to spell "OPINION".

 

Bad Order Harold

 

HEY MWB,

 

Nobody should go head-to-head against Lionel...let them continue with their ongoing sideshow!  One 3-rail manufacturer is enough!

 

(MWB, you probably just experienced a fleeting Antimatter event, or Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.)

 

BAD ORDER

[I'm still working on an optical method for sharpening your Avatar, which would be visible to me only.]

"if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid"

 

A Monumental Statement, AG...Truly Profound!

 

Bad Order

I routinely work with positron emitters (amongst other fun particles) so annihilation reactions are something I'm accustomed to being around.

 

However, I periodically () experience a variant of Pauli's exclusion principle wherein knowing where I am is in conflict with my angular momentum (and when I am...) which is actively reflected in avatar....except when clowning around.

Holy horse hockey...that's a deep thought.

I have been reading this thread all along and would like to add some trains of thought.

First 3 rail is a large section of the o scale market and not in any of the other major scales as in N, HO. Gauge 1, etc. Even the European o scale market the American 3 rail market is "laughable: ( quoted from European sector).

The second train of thought is that I was just told today that Mike of mth says the future of O scale is in the 2-rail market. I was quite surprised to hear that. Then the NMRA came out with a report that O scale has increased from 18% to 22% of the market. Who knew?

Stephen

Yea, and neither of them are as good as Chrysler! LOL!

First off, I don't think it was Mr.Turner with the mis-spelling, and secondly, I don't see what this has to do with anything regarding the subject at hand.

 

Mark in Oregon

Best answer is from Ace.

 

When I was 5 or so and had just learned to ride a bike my grandfather sent me a spectacular 3-speed Raleigh with racing tires, slick styling and hand grip brakes. It looked fast just standing still . . . except my legs were to short to reach the peddles. My dad added cut blocks of wood to help close the gap but mostly I just fell over. Goodbye Raleigh and hello Schwinn. I was happy.

If you are just starting in the hobby you're crazy to dive right into 2R unless you have an accomplished 2R buddy or LHS close by to help you. Even 3R has a learning curve unless you just want to lay track and go with a Ready to Run set. Be prepared to do a lot of research on this forum. As a minimum, if you're not good with tools and making things work, counting rails will be the least of your challenges. One of the most common mistakes in the hobby is trying to do too much too soon. Your decision should be based on more than just pictures. Otherwise best of luck and enjoy!

Gee, I thought there had been an Armistice Day for this war?  And what are the

two railers who have dual gauge track doing?  Hiding their layout from rabid two

railers who visit? Uh, for the newcomer, dual guage track, which has three rails,  was used on railroads like the D&RGW AND C&S who operated standard gauge and narrow gauge railroads or portions of them, and rolling stock of both gauges could use one rail and that section of track.  Spend you first money getting educated!  Look hard

at the cost of starting up.  While I attend every O scale meet I can find (looking for

all the stuff not made in three rail), it is a whole lot easier just to find a hobby shop

that stocks three rail than two rail.  (It is hard enough to find a local hobby shop

these days). Only one shop in the large city of Chicago has a little two rail, one,

Hill's, closed, and the third I used to visit converted over to three rail.  It is a lot

harder to track anything O scale down.  The net helps with that, and while I used

to consider O scale brass ($300 dollar cars vs. three rail $30 plastic cars) expensiive,

three rail locos appear to be trying to close that gap.

But most of all, like any investment, look at them both carefully, and consider the

pros and cons.  And consider whether you want to build a very detailed scale layout,

or something you can soon get running trains on, and catch an effect, rather than

count rivets.  (O scale has its faction, too....Proto-48..where much has to be scratch

built, I think, using those actual scale rivets)

I agree!

It's all about the track.  Without track there is no railroad.  

 

2-rail is the future.   

 

Read it.  Own it.  Live it.  

 

 

Chuck

I've heard that before. Although 2 rail has grown somewhat in popularity over the last 10-12 years that I have been in it (exactly how much is anyone's guess) before I agree that it is the future I need to see two main obstacles either fall or become less than what they are now. #1) There just seems to be a very large number of 3 railers that for whatever reason be it nostalgia or something else are simply not bothered by the center rail. #2) And I think this is a biggie--If 2 rail trains were designed for tighter radii like their 3 rail cousins I believe it would go a long way in making 2 rail "the future". I can't say how many times I have read about someone considering 2 rail but choose 3 rail because they didn't have the room to run large locomotives or large cars. 

 

I've often wondered what would happen if Lionel or some other company offered semi-scale O gauge trains in 2 rail. I know this is sacrilege to the average 2 railer but I was just wondering about it. Would they sell? Would folks actually want toy trains that run on 2 rail track? I think if Lionel did it folks would buy it. Some other company maybe not.

 

That being said I don't believe 3 rail will ever die out. There will always be O Gauge enthusiasts who are not scale modelers that run their older Lionel trains or new Lionel trains because that is what they enjoy.

 

Just my opinion.

Chuck: According to MTH 2 rail is the future. Also this is a 2rail forum so one should expect those here to lean toward prototype 2 rail. The TCA and 3 railers are dying off as the prices drop as collections flood the secondary market. To be honest the 3 rail market has always been a fantasy model railroad hobby which no one in the world of model railroading has ever taken seriously. Just my opinion on a 2 rail forum. Stephen

We are all saying the same thing, and it is almost trivially simple.  If you like the looks of 3-rail track under scale models, go 3-rail.  If you don't, then 2-rail is for you.

 

How simple is that?  One can make arguments about availability or space, but those really do not count. EBay has changed the game - you can buy anything in 2-rail, and a lot of 2- rail can make it around really tight radii.

 

If you like tinplate, or non- scale models, there is a separate forum.  Different hobby.

Stephen, I agree with you that the "serious" model railroaders of other scale have never given 3 rail any respect.

 

When MTH said that I think they meant way, way, way down the road. The reason I say this is because they only offer one or two steam locomotives in 2 rail in each catalog. Latest catalog has 3 but one of them was previously offered, catalog before that only had one. I have read that they only make 25 engines of each 2 rail steam engine. I recently read somewhere that they only made 10 of one particular 2 rail steam engine. Maybe it is the future but at the rate it is going it certainly isn't going to happen in our lifetime.

 

You have to remember that O scale 2 rail is a small market within the small market of O gauge. There are literally tens of thousands of O gauge enthusiasts across the country but maybe only about a total of 1K 2 railers. Even when they pass on they sometimes pass the love of toy trains to children or grandchildren.

 

Don't get me wrong I would really love to see 2 rail become more popular. More popular equals more and better products. It also means more layouts to see in person and here on the internet. I think it will continue to grow in popularity but as it has been-very slowly.

 

Chuck, your opinon has merit!

 

But 2-rail should never be compromised through resorting to curves of tighter radii, as that would be a sacrilege!  Let the tight curves and odd track stay with the Lionel boys.

 

For those who are entertaining the noble thought of upgrading to the classic "Real Railroad" appearance of 2-rail, there are a couple steps (both costly) that can be taken to assure a proper-appearing Empire, and they're both related to space!

 

First, one could add-on to an existing room, or enlarge a garage.  Second, one could build a seperate addition (as I did) for the sole purpose of running trains on a larger layout.

 

I chose the latter alternative, which cost me over $20,000, because it was done by a contractor according to code, with a tile roof that matched the original house.

 

For you folks with basements (we have none out here in the SouthWest), convert the entire basement to 2-rail with long tangents and 60" radius curves. 

 

It all depends on how much money you're willing to spend to respect and honor your hobby!

 

Here's a picture of my 500 sq. ft. addition, which was built as a Billiard Parlor, but since nobody uses it for that purpose anymore, it became an O-Scale Railroad, which I started buildng 1 year ago.

 

That's all.....

 

BAD ORDER HAL   [$2795 due at signing]

 

 

 

 

I just scored another "2-rail" MTH diesel last week and I think MTH has the right approach to the O Scale situation by making locomotives that go both ways. That introduces flexibility that covers both markets. At some point, maybe interchangeable wheelsets will find their way into the steam models and we'll see even more options become available. It's hard to say what percentage of scale-wheeled buyers are actual 2-rail operators versus OS3r operators like myself (most of the time).

I've read this post from the beginning and I have noticed that the op only posted twice. The three rail guys are scaring him into think that 2 rail is so much more exspensive when it's not anymore. MTH 2 rail engines cost just the same and there's a lot of brass on eBay that is not much more.

The space is a factor but I have 12' x 25' and I have come up with a pretty good plan with wide enough curves that I just got an 2rail MTH pennsy 2-10-4 and it ran fine.

Atlas, weaver offer two rail cars right out of the box for the same as three rail cars. MTH are easily two railed with kadee mounting pads already molded in. Not to mention at the two rail shows you can find a lot for not a lot. Also eBay.

Another thing that makes me laugh are the three rail guys that are so worried about fidelity of a new engine and run it on track that's not prototypical. I'm happy with going 2rail and I'm not a rivet counter and sorry but 2rail doesn't always equal serious. I get my enjoyment out of building stuff that looks like the real thing. Including the track.

What I don't get is paying close to two grand or more for a three rail engine. For that kind of money I would rather buy a brass BigBoy that I know is more prototypical.

Sorry Stan that these guys scared you off. Do what you want and not what others think you should do.

Ralph

It's not a compromise or sacrilege if you model earlier eras such as pre-1920 or pre-1900 or earlier where engines can be quite a lot smaller - biggest engine that I run is a 2-8-0.  I also have one curve into a siding that is deliberately set to limit access by only a 0-4-0 switcher.

 

Another option is traction and trolley modeling where very tight corners are quite possible wrapping that ITS Class C around the city block corner.

 

Good stuff from Ralph there as well.  Lots of myths noted.

 

 

HEY MWB,

 

What's the tightest curve that your 2-8-0 Consolidation will handle?

 

My Sunset Brass 2-6-0 Mogul would derail on 36" curves, but stayed on my 43" and 48" curves.

 

And from an earlier post...are you a Physicist?

 

Thanks,

BAD ORDER

 

Although I have no interest in 2R at this time life has taught me to never say never.  Right now I have a small layout where I like to move cars around at low speed and couple and switch and uncouple for a while before any cruising takes place. The electro couplers on the engine with the thumbtack track uncouplers (Atlas 6059) and trucks with pancake uncouplers all work perfectly for me with DCS. So 3R is just right for me now thank you very much and the sight of the 3rd rail doesn't bother me in the least.

 

On the other hand, Hal's persistent unflappable enthusiasm for 2R is starting to weaken my resolve. I especially like that it's "positive" enthusiasm that doesn't rely on bashing the alternative. Hal, I know you're somewhere between me and Mammoth mtn. One of these days I'm gonna show at your front door and you'll be able to try and convince me in person! .

 

I'll be a tough sell though.

 

 

2 of them will take down to 28-31".  The 5 moguls I have will take the same radius.  I've not had time to play with the 6th one or the 3rd consolidation.

 

Physicist?  Radio/Inorganic/Organic/Coordination chemist/radiopharmceutical drugs.

 

HEY SCOTT,

 

I won't have to convince you...my layout will do that!

 

{AND you don't know how to get to my front door}

 

Bad Order Hal of Apple Valley, CA

Here we go again...

 

Mark in Oregon

Been watching this post for awhile now.   I am a 2 railer have been for more years than I care to tell, 3 rail in the past was Lionel  over priced and under scale. but that has changed . the models available today at prices one can afford are plentiful. I see what some of the 3 rail folks are doing and say WOW.  THE NAME OF THE GAME IS MODEL RAILROADING. iTS PLACE TO FORGET THE EVERYDAY PROBLEMS AND ENJOY . So pick a direction make some friends share a few good stories ask  how do you do this or that. and model railroad your way to some fun.  FrankyOgee 

you're right, he did ask that...and his question was answered. Like many discussions, this one went off on a tangent--and what of it?

 

Jeff C

Ralph, that is so awesome! I wish there were more folks who think like you do!

For me, "If it doesn't have electro-couplers, it isn't any fun." I want to operate.

 

That said, I like the realist look of 2-rail track.

"There are lots of ways to skin a cat," as people used to say. I built a very simple

2-rail layout in my available space (about 20x40 feet) using the largest radius I could, which is about 108" with easements (overkill?).

 

Ten years ago, I had the same space crammed with tracks and equipment, but it was not as satisfying as the present arrangement in which my Rio Grande L-105 and A-B-B-A F-3 units sweep gracefully around the very large curves. This certainly isn't what most people would do with a large room, but after years and years of messing around with model trains I finally have something I really like! Maybe it's because I'm 68 and simplicity is more and more appealing!

 

I settled on O-scale 2 rail modeling about 40 years ago after working with HO and S and I've never regretted the decision, although I certainly can understand the appeal of the amazing models now available for the 3-rail market. 

 

We're all in the same hobby, basically, and it's fun to see all the different ways in which

people have interpreted the hobby: No need for invidious comparisons. 

Hudson, you are so right about needing an O Scale 2 rail starter set with engine, cars, track and power pack. I had such high hopes when first AHM/Rivarossi, then Weaver, and finally Atlas hit the market. But my hopes were dashed. O Scale 2R will not move until one can walk into a hobby shop and pickup a boxed set of everything necessary to setup a "Carpet Central" or Tabletop RR. For decades one has been able to do that with HO, N, G,and 3rail O. I'm still hoping. 

 

Dan

 

Mr. Hudson,

 

You mistread me and misinterpreted me, Sir!

 

I did not make any comments whatsoever about the FUTURE of O-Scale 2-Rail!

 

Others spoke of that, not me.  I really don't care if 2-rail has any future or not...I've

got what I wanted!

 

And another thing...I did not spend $20,000 on a train room.

 

I spent it on a BILLIARD PARLOR in 1999, and didn't even decide to build an O-Scale 2-Rail layout until 14 years later, in June, 2013, long after I had lost interest in billiards.  My 900-pound Tournament-size table just sits there, year after year.

 

Now are you straight?

 

Bad Order Hal  [$3799 due at signing]

 

Chuck said, "2-rail is the future." Chuck And then you said, "Chuck, your opinon has merit!"

 

How was I not supposed to interpret that as you agreeing with Chuck?

 

You wrote: "And another thing...I did not spend $20,000 on a train room."

 

But yet you said, "Second, one could build a seperate addition (as I did) for the sole purpose of running trains on a larger layout."

 

I chose the latter alternative, which cost me over $20,000, because it was done by a contractor according to code, with a tile roof that matched the original house.

 

Yes, I have always been STRAIGHT. Your own words contradict yourself.

 

By the way what is "mistread"? Never heard of that word before.

 

The way you wrote those posts above were not in a clear and concise manner.

 

 

 

 

Wow...

 

Mark in Oregon

 

Butch

That's nice....

Actually it was I that referred to Mike of MTH that said the future is 2 rail. I would think a manufacturer would know what is selling. Stephen

 

Gentlemen, this 3-rail vs 2-rail debate will go unresolved into a dead-end...it is written!

 

I've stated my case, and now I've got to board that train to Birmingham, on the Wabash Cannonball.  

 

Bad Order

Well,Stan,there you have it. Hope you managed to get SOMETHING out of this "discussion"...

 

Bet you're (almost) sorry you asked.

 

Mark in Oregon

Stan, I didn't answer any of your questions because I thought they had already been answered. I didn't realize they weren't as this thread took off in another direction.

 

So my question is . How do I know if I am getting 2 or 3 rail trains and cars ?

 

The way I tell a 3 rail car or locomotive from afar is to just look at the coupler and the flanges on the wheels. Any 3 rail car from the factory that has not been modified will have the larger Lionel type coupler. I also look at the flanges and wheels. Any 3 rail car from the factory will have wheels with the very large flanges and the tread of the wheel will usually have a sharp angle. Lionel called these "fast angle wheels". Two rail cars usually come with Kadee couplers or a Kadee compatible coupler or no coupler at all. Two rail cars do not have the larger flanges or the "fast angle wheels". Also on 2 rail cars the tread is smaller and much flatter. Once you get used to what the wheels and couplers look like for 3 rail and 2 rail you will then become very good at telling them apart.

 

The main thing with rolling stock is that 2 rail cars have insulated wheelsets meaning no electricity can pass though the wheels from one rail to the other. In 3 rail the wheelsets are not insulated. This is done so the car can turn on and off accessories like signals and grade flashers,etc. 

 

Also do most of the O scale trains makers trains and cars work together what I mean is can you mix and match them ?

 

Sadly, yes and no. I am a former 3 railer and when I was in 3 rail I had some K-Line cars and some Williams cars that worked very poorly or not at all with Lionel and MTH cars. The Williams car was very difficult to couple up to Lionel cars and the K-Line car just wouldn't couple up at all to Lionel or MTH. You see there are no Standards in 3 rail. All the different manufacturers walk to the beat of their own drum. I believe they do this so that you will find one brand you like and then only buy from that brand. Most of my MTH stuff worked well with Lionel but it was kind of pot luck. I never knew that something wasn't going to work until I tried it. So yes, you can mix and match them (I certainly would) but you may encounter a problem here and there. I've been out of 3 rail for 10 years so I hope there is more compatibility now.

 

O one more thing I bought some real tracks because I thought it would be a good track to start with.

Thanks a lot Stan

 

When you say real tracks I assume you mean MTH's Realtrax. I had this track and I liked it in fact I still have some of it that I used on a small layout for my grandson and I liked it. However, I read complaints about it here on the forum. Everyone has their own opinions on track. A lot of guys like Atlas track. My opinion on 3 rail track is for performance and reliability you can't go wrong with Ross track and switches or Ross switches with Gargraves flex track. If you want more of a scale look I like MTH's Scaletrax. I would buy Rich Battista's video series "The Black Diamond Railway". In this video series (Part 1 I believe) he explains exactly how to work with Scaletrax. I've never done it but it doesn't seem that difficult and you can customize Scaletrax in case you need some special track section. You can find Rich's videos here:

 

http://www.toytrainsontracks.com/

 

Hope this helps.

 

Good luck with your railroad and have fun.

 

Just wanted to add that there is a lot more good information in The Black Diamond videos than just how to use Scaletrax. It's a great video series and I am sure the majority of folks here would recommend it. I have all 3 videos and have watched them numerous times.