318 wheels rubbing in frame

If the wheels actually are distorted, you should be able to see that by watching each one as it rotates.  Or, you could check for distortion by running the motor and wheels by itself with the wheels raised up on a block of wood and carefully holding the tip of a small screwdriver (for example) against the outside edge of the wheel in order to see whether it is moving in and out as it rotates.

If you are considering replacing the wheels, which would mean pulling off the original ones with a wheel-puller of some sort, why not first try moving them just a little further apart on the axles using the same device?

The wheels are as far towards one another as they can physically go.  The problem is not that the wheels are rubbing against the motor frame, the outsides of the wheels are wedged against the inside of the frame of the engine (i.e., the chassis).  If I spread the wheels apart from one another even more, they will definitely not make anything better as far as creating more clearance.  That would create even more of an interference between the wheels and the frame of the engine. 

Sorry, I misunderstood your description of the problem.  Have you checked them for distortion: in other words, is the rubbing intermittent or continuous?

If the motor runs on track.with no problem by itself than I would check to see if the frame is distorted.

John

The clearance between the wheels and frame on this loco is tight to begin with and any swelling of the wheels may cause it to rub.  If you have another std gauge loco, measure the spacing from flange to flange and compare it to your 318.  Also, place it on the track and compare the side to side play with the other loco.  Wheels may swell a little and still track OK, but they may continue to grow.  In the meantime, if it runs OK and doesn’t bind on curves, just spread the frame to clear the wheels.

The frame seems pretty stiff and the sides of the opening for the motor and the wheels are very straight.  I don't see how I could enlage the frame without cutting into it or making the sides bulge. 

What I see in your pic are all four original wheels that are swelled and definitely distorted and need to be replaced with new ones.

@mongo6407 posted:

The frame seems pretty stiff and the sides of the opening for the motor and the wheels are very straight.  I don't see how I could enlage the frame without cutting into it or making the sides bulge. 

My iPhone may not be doing your photo justice, but looks like both wheels on the right side may have some swelling due to zinc pest. Better closeups may show that better. That would certainly account for the rubbing on the outer shell

George

Based on the comments here I guess it's safe to say the wheels are warped, even though they are not chipped or cracked. 

I'll start looking into sourcing new wheels.  thanks for your help   

Look closely at the backside of each wheel - they should be perfectly flat, such that if laid on a flat table, all parts of the backside would touch the table. From the examples I have seen, these wheels tend to dish outward so that the outer edge of the wheels may touch the shell first

george

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John

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@GeoPeg posted:

Look closely at the backside of each wheel - they should be perfectly flat, such that if laid on a flat table, all parts of the backside would touch the table. From the examples I have seen, these wheels tend to dish outward so that the outer edge of the wheels may touch the shell first

george

yes, they are dished or cupped.  is there any way remove them and flatten them or are they junk at this point?

@John A in N.C. posted:

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John

http://www.trainz.com/

http://www.henningstrains.com

Thanks.  Besides the wheels, do I need to replace the gears on the backside of the wheels or are the wheels for that side of the motor keyed with the gears?  the gears mesh fine right now so I was hoping that those can be left alone.

I'm seeing wheels made by Bowser and Model Engineering Works.  Which wheels are preferred?

Someone else should know better than me as too ones better than the other. No they can not be straightened. The gears will go on the new wheels.

good luck on your project, hope you get it running again soon!

John

MEW, Model Engineering Works, is my preferred choice. You can break the old wheels off of the gears and press them onto the new wheels. That way you do not bend the gear during removal.

The wheels are cast zinc captured by a steel rim. As the zinc expands (zinc pest) due to impurities in the metal, it has nowhere to go but axially outwards, due the rim trying to hold it in place radially. Trying to flatten it is a lesson in futility. Replacement wheels are the way to go. My wheel goto these days is Hennings. Not hard to replace. YouTube is your friend. Can be done with a big vice, better with proper tooling and an arbor press. If the gears look fine, try to save and reuse.

Quick question regarding wheel color.  The wheels on there now are red spoke.  This engine is a brown 318 for the baby state set.  Did those always come with red wheels?  I see some sellers are also sell a set of black wheels.  the lettering on my engine is black, not red.  I'm not sure if the lettering is supposed to match the wheels or not.  Also, the front cow catchers are body colored, not red.  I'm just trying to make the color scheme as original as possible.  Thanks.

Nice! Yes all correct. Wheels, Pilot “cow catcher” and black lettering.

John

Thank you!  I will proceed with new red wheels. 

@mongo6407 posted:

Thank you!  I will proceed with new red wheels.

Have you done this before? It's not rocket science, but there are a couple of things that need to be checked during reassembly to avoid gear teeth striking either the motor frame or the armature/pinion bearing plate. 0.001" shims are my go-to to fix that issue should it occur

George

@GeoPeg posted:

Have you done this before? It's not rocket science, but there are a couple of things that need to be checked during reassembly to avoid gear teeth striking either the motor frame or the armature/pinion bearing plate. 0.001" shims are my go-to to fix that issue should it occur

George

I have not done this wheel replacement before.  I've just watched some youtube videos to see what is involved and tools that are needed.  I will keep the shims in mind during reassembly.  Thank you for the tip.

I got a puller (i read that a brasscraft faucet puller would work) and got the two geared wheels off.   I did not take off the plain wheels on the other side. The wheels started to crumble at the slightest pressure so I had to resort to pulling from the gears underneath but they came off easy and are unharmed.  The two round tabs of the wheels were pretty tightly connected in the two mating holes of the gear.  Is there a preferred process to press the new wheels onto the gears?  By the way, the wheel spokes basically crumbled.  Are the new wheels made of similar brittle material or are they made more malleable?

You can use any type of vice. I personally use a wood worker’s vice since it has a smooth face. In my experience the MEW wheels fit snugly and you just have to squeeze the gear on. If you have any play just take a punch and slightly peen the corner of the gear boss and you will be good. I’ve not experienced any zinc pest issues with MEW wheels in the 40 some years that I have had used them.

Replacing the wheels is not hard. With the motor removed from the frame, use a flat end punch to tap the axle out of the wheel. ( I have for over 60 years placed the motor between your legs and tap the axle out ). No science needed.  Using a wheel puller on these ORIGINAL wheels will 99% of the time just crumble and leave only the hub.  The MEW wheels are painted red, same as original, and are freshly made w / pure casting metal. I own both the MDC & Bowser tooling.  Remove the original wheel gears and remount on the new wheels. I use a socket from a mechanics tool set to lay over the gear and tap down flat on the new wheels. This done, using the flat punch, "PEEN" over the edge of the 2 locating holes to secure the gear. Next, press in the axle to the gear wheel. You can use a vise, but make sure axle is going in straight. You can also chuck the axle in a drill press to make sure it is started straight into the wheel. Next, press the non geared wheel on, leaving a little side play. Check on track to see if pressed on far enough. Hope this helps,   Harry

I don't have a vise, but I have a C-clamp.  I epoxied a small stud to one of the jaws to go into the central hole in the  hub of the remaining wheels.  My idea is that the stud is long enough to contact the axle in the old wheel so the old wheel won't actually be in contact with the stud.  the stud will be prevented from going off axis by the center of the wheel hub.  I can add washers around the stud too to add some stability too I guess.  The moving end of the clamp looks like it has a diameter that is about the same size as the old wheels so that should apply pressure directly in the center.  Let me know if you think this is a good or bad idea.

@mongo6407 posted:

I got a puller (i read that a brasscraft faucet puller would work) and got the two geared wheels off.   I did not take off the plain wheels on the other side. The wheels started to crumble at the slightest pressure so I had to resort to pulling from the gears underneath but they came off easy and are unharmed.  The two round tabs of the wheels were pretty tightly connected in the two mating holes of the gear.  Is there a preferred process to press the new wheels onto the gears?  By the way, the wheel spokes basically crumbled.  Are the new wheels made of similar brittle material or are they made more malleable?

I have only replaced gear wheels on six standard gauge wheelsets, but my experience was the same on most of them. Two problems were found; 1)  the gear alignment nubs on the wheel were not accurately cast, and so they did not perfectly align with the holes on the gear, and 2) the central hub was not cleanly cast to form a perfect right angle with the backside of the wheel. That problem appeared on half of the brand new wheels I used.

First, the gear alignment nubs: Rule #1, you must not change the relationship of the center hole of the gear wheel with the central Hub (where the axle goes) on the back of the wheel by filing, squishing or any other means you can think of. So you must adjust the nubs only in order to make things fit.

I saw one wheel where somebody had a more powerful arbor press than mine, and they just smashed the whole thing together. The result was that both of the alignment nubs had tiny bits of their edges smashed flat against the wheel. The excess smashed metal squished outward and prevented the gear from sitting flush with the back of the wheel, as it must. In this instance, the result was a slight wobble in the gear, moving in and out in relation to the motor side plate and the back of the wheel. So my approach was to carefully, slowly, painfully file away the just enough metal on each of the alignment nubs to allow a perfect fit. The major precaution that must be taken here is to do it slowly and do a lot of test fitting. Small files were used, even some needle files, but a problem is that when you place the files flat against the nub and file your way around, the files will eventually hit the central hub. In my case, I used a Dremel to clean up the nubs in those areas. By now, I'm sure those of you with real machinist skills are gripping the edges of your chairs! You do what you can with what you have available, and that includes knowledge, tools and skills!!

Spend some time during the filing process and use a fine point market to show where you need to file, and to help mark your progress. It's not a process I  like at all, but I didn't see an alternative. I'm hoping others may chime in with their experiences.

Next, the central hub: When I had filed enough metal off the nubs to make things fit, I noticed the gear was still "rocking" against the back of the wheel instead of laying perfectly flat. The cause was that the central hub was not perfectly formed where it meets the back of the wheel - think of it as an area where the transition from the hub to the back of the wheel was rounded instead of a perpendicular junction. I had to file both the central hub and the backside of the wheel where they meet, in order to get the gear to lay perfectly flat against the wheel. Happily, that was a pretty easy cleanup and my new gear was now ready to be secured to the wheel.

Securing the gear: A lot of Youtubers, when securing the gear to the back of the wheel, seem to just smash the edges of the nubs once they were seated - the tool of choice seemed to be a flat, screwdriver-shaped cold chisel, or a round tipped, flat ended punch. I spoke with a few knowledgeable folks who advised against that (I do not know why), and said that I should do the swaging at the center hub using a special tool. So I bought the round faced tool for my press. The surface of that tool has the circular crimping edge at the outer reaches of the center hub, such that the hub's metal was compressed tightly against the inner diameter of the gear. That was a bear! It took everything my press had to create that crimp - I thought I was going to break the handle on my press (a modified Harbor Freight, so that might explain the concern), and even had one kind soul offer a suggestion to smack my press handle with a large hammer to provide an "impulse" blow to the crimp - I didn't do that, thinking "what could possibly go wrong with that?" It seemed to me that all of this pressing needed to be done with the axle in place in order to prevent squishing the axle hole in the central hub. It took a while to figure out how to do that on my press, but I got it done.

Plan B: If you don't have a press, then I would say a cold chisel and a hammer used at the nubs would probably work, but could potentially result in uneven seating if things went wrong.

Plan C: Which is why I chose to ignore swaging of the gear/wheel altogether on my first attempt (before I bought the press tool) and simply go with JB Weld. Worked perfect, nicely aligned and flat with no wobble and VERY well secured!! Let's just say when and if that wheel crumbles, I won't be around to deal with it!

Looking forward to hearing other peeps experiences as well.

George

@Harry Henning posted:

... With the motor removed from the frame, use a flat end punch to tap the axle out of the wheel. ( I have for over 60 years placed the motor between your legs and tap the axle out ). No science needed.  Harry

I love it! That's exactly how I removed mine, in my lap ... except for the ones with serious zinc pest that either fell off the axle, or twisted off with light hand pressure!

George

George,

            Whose wheels were you using ?  If you were buying older original wheels, I could see where there may have been some growth in the gear locator nubs that you would have had to work on.  Re-using old wheels seems like a waste of money and assembly time, unless you just want them to be shelf items.  We have mfg. & sold over 10K wheels every year since I purchased the Co. 5 - 6 years ago, with "OUT" a gear complaint. I just want your readers to know that our wheels are VERY perfect regards casting,  and ease of assembly.  I would NEVER recommend flaring or peening the axle hub.   Harry 

@Harry Henning posted:

George,

            Whose wheels were you using ?  If you were buying older original wheels, I could see where there may have been some growth in the gear locator nubs that you would have had to work on.  Re-using old wheels seems like a waste of money and assembly time, unless you just want them to be shelf items.  We have mfg. & sold over 10K wheels every year since I purchased the Co. 5 - 6 years ago, with "OUT" a gear complaint. I just want your readers to know that our wheels are VERY perfect regards casting,  and ease of assembly.  I would NEVER recommend flaring or peening the axle hub.   Harry 

Hi Harry, not sure whose wheels they were as they were sent to me by my friend who owned the engines. But he bought them as new, and they clearly had never been used, I would not waste my time (or his) putting used wheels on his engine. In hindsight, I agree not swaging the axle hub, but it was promoted by an established player who also provided the tool and advised on the technique. The only issue I saw in swaging the guide pins was if the hub had a poorly formed joint where it met the wheel - that excess metal caused the gear to rock before swaging - of course, that HAD to be cleaned up first no matter what, so that's what I did.

George