Lionel Rutland Mogul is DOA. Update, video added.

Is The Mogul originally a K-line engine?   I noticed from a previous photo the motor is sitting backwards like most K-line engines.  I recall they had problems with this configuration.   Probably why this engine is not backwards rolling and a bit jerky running..  

joe

K-Line never made this engine. The only most all K-Line engines are smooth runners, at least all of mine are. Some with early K-Line cruise had some hesitation at startup but otherwise are smooth runners. Motor orientation should have no effect on running.

Pete

Lionel first offered the Moguls with TMCC back in 03. I don't recall seeing any reports of operational issue on these models, they also included the tender truck chain detail missing on the legacy version.

TMCC mogul:

Lionel more recently offered the moguls in conventional only, also good runners for conventional with a fantastic legacy "like"sound package as well. I think I prefer the whistle on the conventional model to the new one.

Conventional mogul from 2011:

"Is The Mogul originally a K-line engine?   I noticed from a previous photo the motor is sitting backwards like most K-line engines.  I recall they had problems with this configuration.   Probably why this engine is not backwards rolling and a bit jerky running.."  

No connection between performance and motor orientation.

"K-Line never made this engine. The only most all K-Line engines are smooth runners, at least all of mine are. Some with early K-Line cruise had some hesitation at startup but otherwise are smooth runners. Motor orientation should have no effect on running."

Yes, yes, yes and yes. 

@dolson

All, I had a chance to take a look at one of the Moguls this past Saturday at our D3 meet at Norm's.  I will say it is quite a nice locomotive.  The sounds are phenomenal.  I did have the chance to evaluate the motion and drive system of the unit and wanted to provide some feedback on what I saw.  I hope it may be of some help to resolve the issues.

First, wanted to say that I owned the original TMCC version (CN version) and it runs flawlessly, great slow speed motion and not jerky at all.

I had the chance to run the Grand Trunk version this Saturday, and this is what I had noticed:

  • At slow speed the engine did have a lurch to it (especially in the forward direction).  It clears up at higher speed. (Note, gearbox was properly lubricated so no lack of lube issues.
  • I was facing the left side of the loco and the 1st thing I noticed when commanding the loco forward with the Cab 2 was the center drive wheel moved towards me.  It was pronounced since the drive gear shifts outwards as well.  I would say 1/2 mm or more of end play in the center drive axle.
  • After playing with the engine forward and backward, quite slowly, we were able to get the engine to lock up trying to move forward.  With just a slight push on the drive wheel opposite me the gears freed up and it moved forward.
  • There were no issues with brake wheel stiction or traction tire issues.

This leads me to question either the gear mesh between the drive axle and motor, or the tolerance of motor gear to the drive gear on the middle axle.  The friend whom I had sold my TMCC Mogul to went back and checked what happens when drives the engine forward at slow speed.  He found no movement of the drive wheel towards him (ie, no end play).  

Not sure if there could be a gear tooth pitch issue on motor or axle, or just the alignment of the motor and drive axle.

My 2 cents, hope it may be of some help in diagnosis.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Greg

 

Greg,

Sounds like you have repeated what mine was doing locking up.  Maybe a few shim washers on each side to prevent the side to side movement would be the cure.   Hope Dave sees this and can comment.

The lurching (speed changes) that are being observed at low speed operation is probably not mechanical. Everyone is so focused on mechanical issues, that nobody apparently noticed that the speed-up / slow-down is synchronized with the activation of the smoke fan. 

I have observed this same nuisance issue on some Lionchief Plus locomotives like the Mikados. At low voltages, the drive motor RPM's can be significantly impacted by the current drawn as the smoke fan motor cycles on and off, causing this "jerking" issue. As the locomotive speeds up, the issue tapers away as the fan motor operation transitions to continuous.

This problem goes away on the LC+ locos if the smoke unit is turned off. Has anyone actually turned off their smoke unit to see what effect it has on this slow speed issue? 

GregR posted:

The lurching (speed changes) that are being observed at low speed operation is probably not mechanical. Everyone is so focused on mechanical issues, that nobody apparently noticed that the speed-up / slow-down is synchronized with the activation of the smoke fan. 

The mogul Steam Loco Greg posted about above was mine.  We were able to repeat the binding that Superwarp reported with his.  I'm pretty certain this is a mechanical issue.

Charlie a.k.a MichiganRailRoad714  D3R - Glancy Trains

Well my locking up issues are not caused by current draw due to the smoke unit.  It’s possible the jerking which on mine is sinked to the chuffing might be caused by current draw where the board can’t handle the excess current and it’s pulling down the voltage the cruise control needs to work. Lionel has mine so I can’t check this.

AmtrakNickFilms posted:

Has anyone at lionel found out the solution to the issue yet? I would like to be able to buy a mogul for myself at york but only if lionel comes up with a good solution to the issue.

Still waiting for Dave O to get back with use.  Since it’s York week, I’d bet everyone looking into this is at the show. I would highly recommend anyone attending the show to bug Lionel about this issue

Mine stalled last night and got the flashing cab light indicating a stalled motor.  Just waiting for the solution so I can determine if it needs to be shipped in or if the repair can be done at home.

Charlie a.k.a MichiganRailRoad714  D3R - Glancy Trains

MichRR714 posted:

Mine stalled last night and got the flashing cab light indicating a stalled motor.  Just waiting for the solution so I can determine if it needs to be shipped in or if the repair can be done at home.

If you take it off the track and wiggle that center driver, you can get it to work again.   But, I hope we hear back soon.

Just Thinking about the lock up. a poster earlier reported that visually it looked like the driver on the left side was pushing outward. So thinking ,those who reported the lockup and then jiggled the center driver, i was just wondering if you may have noticed the center driver pushed against the drive rods and maybe stuck there before you jiggled it free. 

I have a central Vermont engine. I notice the hesitation, lurch or jerk in slow speed up to speed step 30 or so, more so accelerating than decelerating. Seemed to be able to mitigate the non smooth motion a bit by modulating the throttle in the speed step range where it occurs. Also the hesitation was barely noticeable on the rolls step.

I have run this engine for about an hour or so , in  the slow speed step which is above speed step 30 , smoke off and although hesitation was noticeable as described (under speed step 30) when accelerating from stop to slow, I did not encounter any lock up condition . Smoke was not on most of the time. 

Sharing my experience and awaiting word from Lionel. 

LIRR Steamer

I also have not experienced the "lock up" problem. I HAVE had the engine shut down at low conventional voltage with the "motor stall" light flashing, such as when trying to make a smooth, slow speed departure. I just turned off power, reapplied, power, and took off.

I also HAVE a noticeable lurch as it runs, as mentioned elsewhere.

LIRR Steamer posted:

SJC  Are you running it conventionally or just reduce track voltage during Legacy operation? 

Both. I typically operate conventional only but have a "loaner" Legacy set from a friend to play with while I make up my mind on purchasing a full Legacy system or not.

So the stall occurred when you were running conventionally at low voltage I gather. I am using a legacy set with track power being supplied through a DCS variable channel. I usually keep the setting on the track at 16 volts or a bit less. Thinkng it helps with light and smoke wick longevity. 

I let the legacy speed steps do the work of accelerating. Have a momentum setting of about 6. 

LIRR Steamer

Hi- I've had time to tinker today, and I have a question for a metals person. I bought a 5/32 inch round brass tube at my hardware store today to make bushings for the Legacy Mogul's front drivers' drive rods, K&S precision Metals #8129 ("5/32 x .014 or 3.97 mm" the package says). They were out of stainless steel. Would stainless steel be a better choice for bushings?

I did cut two pieces of this brass tube the length of the shoulder on the drive rod bolts (~2.5 mm) in the two front drivers and inserted these bushings and oiled them.  I did this because I feel there is too much play on this driver set, and here is where my drive rods slightly bind causing (I think) both the jerkiness and the occasional motor stall. There certainly is more play on my two new Legacy Moguls than on my two conventional moguls from a several years ago.

So far operation is very good, but I've only run Lackawanna 2-6-0 #565 just part of this afternoon. These bushings together with thinner in thickness but wider in width tractions tires I had in my spare parts box has gotten rid of the jerkiness and stalling (so far......... ha ha ha, my fingers are crossed). When reversing direction there is some looseness still evident in the drive rods upon starting, but I think this is somewhat normal for all engines?

Rick

JC642 posted:

Is The Mogul originally a K-line engine?

You can sometimes tell if its an old K-line tooling items by the fact that Lionel does not remove the casting on the shell that says "Built by K-line". On the Legacy B6's its under the cab after you remove the top shell. I've seen it on the Berkshires too.

Bruk posted:
JC642 posted:

Is The Mogul originally a K-line engine?

You can sometimes tell if its an old K-line tooling items by the fact that Lionel does not remove the casting on the shell that says "Built by K-line". On the Legacy B6's its under the cab after you remove the top shell. I've seen it on the Berkshires too.

But the K-Line Berks were O31, while the Lionel ones are O54.  Does that mean the Lionel ones can really run on O31?  I liked K-Line locomotives for that reason, great detail, scale, and could run tight curves.

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David NissenTed Sowirka


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