Another Kline Hudson gets the works! Tales from Harmon Shops

Sounds like a great project for a classic.  Looking forward to the progress!

Harmonyards, this is the beginning of a great upgrade to a beautiful Hudson. Thank you for making this thread, its going to be a fun to read story about a hopefully fun to run Locomotive. This is one of my favorite steam locomotives of all times, and when it’s all feature enhanced, I’ll buy a nice NYC passenger train, 12 car consist to run behind this fantastic steamer.  Happy Railroading Everyone 

I've always had a decent time running long Atlas reefer freights or REA Express trains behind my K-Line J1-E. All those consists are fairly long, at least as long as a 7 car 18-inch set. Nevertheless I do agree with that finicky cruise.

@leapinlarry Your in for a treat getting this all set up! Truly beautiful models and although I've not had problems with mine I'm jealous of this upgrade! I will definitely follow this thread.

@harmonyards I love the username! NYC is my favorite and save for a single C&O H7 it's all I collect and run! I also just added a grade that's about 2.5% on the outer mains on my layout. The Hudson took it well without a load, and inadequate power drops by the way, do you expect that it will have a problem navigating the new course?

If that's the case I wouldn't mind getting in touch at some point, I've been around but not too vocal, if you need anyone to tell you I'm alright DJones can tell you I'm ok. Bought my 20th Century Dreyfuss and aforementioned H7 from him.

Pat,  did you ever count the turns on the Kline gearbox.  I've been wondering what the ratio is.  John

What a terrific modification Larry - Great for you sir!

My 3rd K-Line Hudson has PS2 and a MTH smoke unit installed and is a stellar performer. The scale pilot is a vast improvement over the stock Lionel 'tiny wheels' that they use on most of their Hudsons.

These K-Line hudsons are just great for adding additional detail. This one has had every part of it detailed, Sanders, electrical, engine truck and wheels, trailing truck, valve gear and the prototype hudson's electrical wiring as well as ashpan rods. Any one can make these mods. This also has ERR and smoke.

@Jedderbob posted:

I've always had a decent time running long Atlas reefer freights or REA Express trains behind my K-Line J1-E. All those consists are fairly long, at least as long as a 7 car 18-inch set. Nevertheless I do agree with that finicky cruise.

 

@leapinlarry Your in for a treat getting this all set up! Truly beautiful models and although I've not had problems with mine I'm jealous of this upgrade! I will definitely follow this thread.

 

@harmonyards I love the username! NYC is my favorite and save for a single C&O H7 it's all I collect and run! I also just added a grade that's about 2.5% on the outer mains on my layout. The Hudson took it well without a load, and inadequate power drops by the way, do you expect that it will have a problem navigating the new course?

If that's the case I wouldn't mind getting in touch at some point, I've been around but not too vocal, if you need anyone to tell you I'm alright DJones can tell you I'm ok. Bought my 20th Century Dreyfuss and aforementioned H7 from him. 

You’ll be pushing it to its limits on a grade....my biggest issue with these stock is how much heat is generated pulling 6 heavyweights for any sustained time....and I run on the water level, so my track is level, no grades...and it was run on generous O81 & 090 ....after 30 minutes of run time, the quirky problems begin to show themselves....not acceptable to me....my run sessions can last for hours on end, and I don’t want jerky action.....watching 6 heavyweights bang together, jump back & forth is no fun for me...I’d be curious how your Kline does on that 2.5 grade after an hour of running with a real train behind it...10-12 heavyweights is the norm for all my Hudsons/ Pacifics....for many hours on end....my train room is on the main level of my house, so I can run trains all day long.....my other Pittman powered Hudsons by Lionel & MTH have no problems with very long trains, 6,7 or even 8 hour trips...I build 90% of my locomotives, so I build them for low amp draws, plenty of power, and strong drivetrains....I have ERR equipped ex-Pulmor Mohawks with thousands of hours logged....so well built, service intervals are 500 hours...and when Oct- Jan rolls around it doesn’t take long to get those hours racked up...I can entertain guests, and run trains, I can cook, and enjoy the trains, I can be anywhere in my house, and enjoy the trains,...I’m the exception, not the norm.....

Pat

@JohnActon posted:

Pat,  did you ever count the turns on the Kline gearbox.  I've been wondering what the ratio is.  John

30:1 John 

Pat

@Ron H posted:

These K-Line hudsons are just great for adding additional detail. This one has had every part of it detailed, Sanders, electrical, engine truck and wheels, trailing truck, valve gear and the prototype hudson's electrical wiring as well as ashpan rods. Any one can make these mods. This also has ERR and smoke.

Ron, we’re all still trying to catch up to you’re level buddy.....always beautiful work!..

Pat

I agree Ron makes some beautiful engines but the one pictured is a Williams Masterpiece J3a so it had a head start in the detail department. Larry, you are really gong to enjoy this when you get it back.

Pete

The champion Hudson puller is the Williams Scale Hudson which has traction tires on both the front and rear drivers.  I have both the K-Line and MTH scale Hudsons which struggle with 5-6 Madison heavyweights.  The Williams Hudson can take on 10-12 heavyweight cars without slowing down.

The Williams Hudson is not as beautiful standing still as the MTH and K-Line Hudsons but she is poetry in motion with a normal heavyweight consist of 10-12 passenger cars!

More traction tires equal more strength!

This looks like it's going to be a beauty ! 

Alex

@c.sam posted:

What a terrific modification Larry - Great for you sir!

.

c.sam how do you like that Vanderbilt? Is it the Lionel 777? Have you done any mods to it?

@harmonyards posted:

You’ll be pushing it to its limits on a grade....my biggest issue with these stock is how much heat is generated pulling 6 heavyweights for any sustained time....and I run on the water level, so my track is level, no grades...and it was run on generous O81 & 090 ....after 30 minutes of run time, the quirky problems begin to show themselves....not acceptable to me....my run sessions can last for hours on end, and I don’t want jerky action.....watching 6 heavyweights bang together, jump back & forth is no fun for me...I’d be curious how your Kline does on that 2.5 grade after an hour of running with a real train behind it...10-12 heavyweights is the norm for all my Hudsons/ Pacifics....for many hours on end....my train room is on the main level of my house, so I can run trains all day long.....my other Pittman powered Hudsons by Lionel & MTH have no problems with very long trains, 6,7 or even 8 hour trips...I build 90% of my locomotives, so I build them for low amp draws, plenty of power, and strong drivetrains....I have ERR equipped ex-Pulmor Mohawks with thousands of hours logged....so well built, service intervals are 500 hours...and when Oct- Jan rolls around it doesn’t take long to get those hours racked up...I can entertain guests, and run trains, I can cook, and enjoy the trains, I can be anywhere in my house, and enjoy the trains,...I’m the exception, not the norm.....

Pat

What you described is the reason I study hard! Hopefully one day I'll have that luxury of being able to run trains from a more central point. At the moment my layout is in the basement of my parents, there is a TV and some other stuff down there for background noise as well but I don't see running this layout for upwards of more than an hour or two at a time.

One day I would love to have a long enough layout to run full car Sunset Models 21' consists but my table is a T-Shape that's about 30 feet long by 8 feet wide with a 16 foot wide t section in the middle. So my desire for long trains gets bit back a little by my not wanting to run tail-chasers. I'll give my Hudson a go with the longer train and report back.

One thing I am lucky about is that my mainline minimum is 0-72 and most curves on the pike are 0-84 or 0-96. These Hudsons look so good coupled close lumbering around a large bend.

C Sam, thank you for chiming in, I really like these K-Line hudsons, and after reading about what’s under the hood, so to speak, (the boiler body) and learning through another thread about one offering an upgrade to enhance the K-Line hudsons performance, ta da, I was sold. Portland Rose, Thank You for also chiming in, when this new chassis and Pittman motor gets installed, this locomotive will become a stump puller.... (a little humor) and I’ve asked The Harmonyards to simply pretend it’s his and make it great.  This is going to be a great thread to follow.  It’s a fun hobby, fun people, and an exciting time in model railroading. Happy Railroading Everyone 

Good to see you Larry!  I bought your Lionel Pennsylvania J1a from you some years ago.  I like the detailing of the MTH and K-Line Hudsons and home Harmon Yards retooling of your K-Line gets it to go better!  I wish the manufacturers (MTH, K-Line and Lionel) had followed Williams lead by installing traction tires on both front and rear drivers.  It would seem to be a great improvement at little cost as shown by the Williams Hudson results.

Yes Portland Rose, I remember the sale we made, and that particular Pennsylvania Steamer is a beautiful locomotive. We have known each other via the OGR Forum for many years, Time sure flies. Regarding Hudson’s, I’ve owned 3 VL Hudson’s but for some reason I could not like them well enough to keep them. This K-Line hudson looks so good on the outside, but the forward facing small can motor is a real turnoff. Reading other threads and The Harmonyards upgrade offer, I jumped at the opportunity. I’m sure he’ll post a lot of pictures of his work and although it won’t be Legacy Command, it’s going to be a fun to run engine. I think it’s going to be a very beautiful Hudson. Thank You all for your support. Happy Railroading 

@MartyE posted:

c.sam how do you like that Vanderbilt? Is it the Lionel 777? Have you done any mods to it?

Hi Marty. I posted this shot to illustrate the poor visual effect with the stock pilot wheels. This CV is a 'blend' put together by Pete (Norton) some years ago that I purchased from him at York. If memory serves me correctly, it has the can motor & chassis with wireless tether/tender chassis of one of the later CV releases. I've not been able to get it to run smoothly as the linkage seems to bind from time to time and have not had the opportunity to have it worked on. I do have the scale pilot for it around in a box somewhere and will mount it one day!

Sam, that CV has the earlier CV shells on the later CV engine and tender frames. It still has a Pullmor motor but wireless tether, electro coupler, and Improved Railsounds. I used the chassis that came with that engine for the can motor conversion on my later black CV. The Pullmor motor may be the reason its not as smooth as your can motored engines.

Pete

@The Portland Rose posted:

Good to see you Larry!  I bought your Lionel Pennsylvania J1a from you some years ago.  I like the detailing of the MTH and K-Line Hudsons and home Harmon Yards retooling of your K-Line gets it to go better!  I wish the manufacturers (MTH, K-Line and Lionel) had followed Williams lead by installing traction tires on both front and rear drivers.  It would seem to be a great improvement at little cost as shown by the Williams Hudson results.

How are you running your Williams Hudson?.Conventional or did you put command in it?..I’ve never upgraded a Williams, I couldn’t ever get them tame enough to do slower speeds...like below Mach 9 ......at 100 mph yes, they are smooth, but anything below 30-40 SMPH, they just acted like roller coasters...and not to disprove what you say about the MTH Hudson, but I have no problems pulling 12-15 heavyweights with any of my MTH Hudsons, or any of the KLine Hudsons with the MTH mod of course....now, that’s on my layout, yours may differ...and another thing I do is I keep all my rolling stock in tune, so everything rolls with the least amount of resistance possible......but I will agree those Williams Hudsons ain’t so pretty, but with a crack of a ZW’s throttle, they will drag an entire consist of heavyweights without wheels....😉

Pat

I have one of these KLine scale Hudsons, converted to PS2, but still with the little Mabuchi motor. I am careful to only run it for short spells, but it is one of my favorite engines.

Not trying to hijack this thread but isn't there a forum gentleman who does motor conversions for KLines, replacing the original with a Pittman of some sort? Any info appreciated.

Rod

@Rod Stewart posted:

I have one of these KLine scale Hudsons, converted to PS2, but still with the little Mabuchi motor. I am careful to only run it for short spells, but it is one of my favorite engines.

Not trying to hijack this thread but isn't there a forum gentleman who does motor conversions for KLines, replacing the original with a Pittman of some sort? Any info appreciated.

Rod

That's @harmonyards.  Great guy.  He's doing a 773 conversion for me now.

@The Portland Rose posted:

 

The Williams Hudson is not as beautiful standing still as the MTH and K-Line Hudsons but she is poetry in motion with a normal heavyweight consist of 10-12 passenger cars!

Another advantage is the Williams has is proper lettering on the tender, not the odd extra space between "York" and "Central" that the K-Line has.

@breezinup posted:

Another advantage is the Williams has is proper lettering on the tender, not the odd extra space between "York" and "Central" that the K-Line has.

I'm not seeing an extra space, perhaps a very slight 1/4 space at best.  Two letters would certainly not fit between the K and the C on this K-Line tender.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm not seeing an extra space, perhaps a very slight 1/4 space at best.  Two letters would certainly not fit between the K and the C on this K-Line tender.

And to add to this, actually Williams letters are just a bit too chubby for the prototypes...but still, they don’t look horrible...

Pat

Nitpicking, perhaps, but certainly noticable. I remember this gap was noticed and mentioned when the K-Line Hudsons first came out. No doubt not a big deal to most folks, but it's definitely off.

Rod Stewart, Harmonyards is taking my K-Line hudson to the next level, a complete overhaul of the drive system, a new MTH hudson chassis with more accurate detailing, a hi powered Pittman motor, Gunrunner Johns smoke system, the Chuffer affair, 4 chuffs per revolution, ERR board, a detailed deck from cab to tender, curtains, new  headlight lens and more.  I love the NYC J1e design very much and thought since the locomotive needs a little pick me up, Harmonyards is my choice. It’s in the right hands. Mine will be TMCC.  This is a fun experience from which we can all learn from. Happy Railroading Everyone 

Larry, Please give us a report when you get the Hudson back with some photos!

I sold my K-line Hudson and Berk years ago when i realized that my collection was much bigger than I would ever have room to run. A decision that I still regret....

@The Portland Rose posted:

Larry, Please give us a report when you get the Hudson back with some photos!

Will do.  I put a prototypical headlight on my J3 #5416, but on this one, I just wanted a restomod of sorts of an oldie (looking) but goodie engine.  Always liked the 773 from yesteryear.  To have one with a big can motor with some goodies inside will be a treat, I think.  He's putting on scale-looking wheels on the pilot truck as well.  

Thank you all for your comments on this thread about making a K-Line Hudson a great model of the J1e in all areas. Yes, Harmonyards will be posting his work when he begins the project. I had never purchased many K-Line locomotives because of my love for Lionel Legacy. This is a new adventure for me, and does prove there are more choices on the market  today than ever. I am glad this upgrade is possible. Happy Railroading Everyone, Leapin Larry

Here’s some progress on Larry’s Kline Hudson MTH chassis swap....I’ll explain the pics in order as best I can....ask any questions y’all like if I didn’t make a step clear enough....

first step I do is establish wheel base marks, and ride height....the gold mark in the pic is washable marker, so I make a dot there to establish that...the ride height is found with a feeler gauge crammed between the tire and the body shell....next, we’ll size up the MTH chassis for fitment ...places marked in gold need to be trimmed off.....cuts and clean ups are done with a variety of shop tools, including a band saw, carbide bits, belt sanders, and a rolock air grinder.......next, we’ll fabricate a new mounting plate from 1/16” mild steel for the back mount....MTH is kind enough to leave me two perfect sized holes for mounting the rear plate ....so we’ll use those after we add self centering counter sinks....again as fate would have us, the front mount stand off lines up perfectly with one of the pre-drilled holes in the MTH chassis....we’ll do the same again for the front, counter sinking a self centering hole for a screw.......these countersunk screws will make life a breeze for servicing if the need arises, no fiddling with alignments.....I hate that....the factory Kline front mount stand off is much too tall to sit on the new chassis, so first we’ll go ahead and drill through it so we can tap it for the appropriate screw.....I just sneak up on trimming the stand off, till my feeler gauges match the original ride height....no magic there....just trim & fit, repeat....now that the new chassis is anchored, you can see how well the MTH parts fit and look right....our cylinders line up beautiful, and the stance is dead on..before final assembly, we’ll paint up and chemically reblacken all the parts.....in our next exciting episode, we’ll fit the pilot, along with front and rear kline trucks, and some rods and valve linkage.....don’t touch that dial kids, we’ll be back....what tv show was that from anyways??.....it’s on the tip of my tongue....god I’m getting old....

Pat

Hey guys, I just heard from Harmonyards and work on this Kline beauty will begin in the next few days or week, it’s so exciting. I am so glad that a different thread on Kline Berkshires led me to Harmonyards, this will be a much fun to run locomotive when it gets back home. Happy Railroading Everyone

Here’s some more progress on Larry’s ( I’ve got two Larrys in the shop) KLine swap project....we’ve fitted the MTH valve hanger to nestle under the Kline boiler, and have begun outfitting valve gear, guides, and all the rods...what I’ll be working on tonight is outfitting the snifter valve ( that’s the pipe assembly sticking out of the steam chest) and making that a little more accurate converging from the MTH chassis to the Kline boiler...beings both the MTH & the Kline are fairly accurate models, I can add a section of pipe to join the snifter back to its plumbing for a much better look....excuse all the multi colored parts at this point...everything will be appropriately painted/darkened for a good clean look...she’ll look better than factory when we’re through.....on the engineer’s side we’ll outfit it with the proper oiler linkage not found on the Kline model...then, it’ll be time to fit the Kline pilot assembly to the MTH chassis...I actually like the Kline pilot better than the MTH pilot....although very close in detail, the Kline edges out with more than the MTH...as far as I’m concerned, if Kline added just a few more detail parts, externally speaking, this would have been a model no mfr. could have rivaled....( here comes the murdering of the English language) we’ll make a near perfect diecast Hudson the most perfectliest....don’t touch that dial kids!...we’ll be back!...

Pat

Harmonyards,

We need a video of Leapin Larry's engine once you are done with it.

Erol Gurcan

@locolawyer posted:

Harmonyards,

We need a video of Leapin Larry's engine once you are done with it.

Erol Gurcan

Yes we do!..

Pat

Anyway to straighten the combination link ? It would look even better IMHO.

Ron H

Wow, Harmonyards, thank you again for more pictures of your work on the hudson. This is exciting, fun, and fantastic. I’m so glad to see this great progress and all the folks chiming in and even Rich Melvin on the newer 773 thread. Your work is simply awesome. This is what makes this hobby so much fun, sharing ideas, seeing others work, and making a model a top performer. Thank You again Harmonyards. We are looking forward to the next steps in the process. Happy Railroading Everyone

@Ron H posted:

Anyway to straighten the combination link ? It would look even better IMHO.

Ron H

I’m sure it still needs tweaking Ron, I’m still in rough mock up...but thanks for pointing it out...

Pat

@RonH.....here’s a better pic of the combination lever on Larry’s build,....all of the MTH and Kline and even the Lionel’s have this “kick out” to clear the cross head guide...only straight one I see is on a Williams Masterpiece J3a like yours....here’s a close up pic....I just checked it, works like a champ....

Pat

I really enjoy your threads Pat.  

Between all thats going on these days, and the this don't work, that don't work, Mth is closing etc etc on the forum.

Its nice to hear someone say. No worries, we can fix that and its gonna be better than ever. Can't wait for the finish product videos. Interesting and positive, can't beat it.

On top of that.  Its also nice change from, what are you preordering? and whats the best type of grease to use? etc threads.

Excellent Thread'... I have the original very heavy Williams Hudson, from the 80's.  I researched all the competitors , and after a couple of years, I finally found one on the Bay at a fair price.  It sat in a glass case in a LHS for many years.  The traction tires were rotted away.  Too difficult for me to change them, so I removed them completely.  Polished her up a bit a little oil, etc.

She pulls 15 heavies plus, on  3 and 4% grades with ease.  Minimal slippage at very slow speeds.

It's a matter of beauty verses power.  I prefer the power'...

I do have a K Line hudson. She was once super-detailed, but has been stripped of some of the detail and now is a shelf queen.

@harmonyards posted:

You’ll be pushing it to its limits on a grade....my biggest issue with these stock is how much heat is generated pulling 6 heavyweights for any sustained time....and I run on the water level, so my track is level, no grades...and it was run on generous O81 & 090 ....after 30 minutes of run time, the quirky problems begin to show themselves....not acceptable to me....my run sessions can last for hours on end, and I don’t want jerky action.....watching 6 heavyweights bang together, jump back & forth is no fun for me...I’d be curious how your Kline does on that 2.5 grade after an hour of running with a real train behind it...10-12 heavyweights is the norm for all my Hudsons/ Pacifics....for many hours on end....my train room is on the main level of my house, so I can run trains all day long.....my other Pittman powered Hudsons by Lionel & MTH have no problems with very long trains, 6,7 or even 8 hour trips...I build 90% of my locomotives, so I build them for low amp draws, plenty of power, and strong drivetrains....I have ERR equipped ex-Pulmor Mohawks with thousands of hours logged....so well built, service intervals are 500 hours...and when Oct- Jan rolls around it doesn’t take long to get those hours racked up...I can entertain guests, and run trains, I can cook, and enjoy the trains, I can be anywhere in my house, and enjoy the trains,...I’m the exception, not the norm.....

Pat

I guess I must have a rare good one then.... My 5344 will pull 7 k-line heavyweights  and two rea cars for a couple hours around the club layout at a reasonable pace without breaking a sweat.  She stays pretty cool to the touch most of the time.  I keep her very well maintained and lubricated on all moving parts. Only issue she ever had was a bad cherry switch.

@Brian DeFazio posted:

I guess I must have a rare good one then.... My 5344 will pull 7 k-line heavyweights  and two rea cars for a couple hours around the club layout at a reasonable pace without breaking a sweat.  She stays pretty cool to the touch most of the time.  I keep her very well maintained and lubricated on all moving parts. Only issue she ever had was a bad cherry switch.

You must have, most suffer from anemic performance on home layouts, with 5-6 heavyweights, heating up and doing quirky things....it’s a known fact these Hudsons have a very tiny motor, and are problematic when they heat soak.......it’s a 50/50 thing...some are satisfied, others not...just out of curiosity, what’s your club’s radius on the curves?...

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

You must have, most suffer from anemic performance on home layouts, with 5-6 heavyweights, heating up and doing quirky things....it’s a known fact these Hudsons have a very tiny motor, and are problematic when they heat soak.......it’s a 50/50 thing...some are satisfied, others not...just out of curiosity, what’s your club’s radius on the curves?...

Pat

Our tightest curves are O72, but I usually run her on the outside main that is O96 i think.

I have to agree with Pat, I've seen a lot of these, and the wimpy motor just isn't up to continuous running.  Yours must be blessed.

Never had issue with my Kline berks with their small motors but then again smaller drivers, lower gearing and I always run them in a lashup pulling freights not heavyweight passenger cars.

@Brian DeFazio posted:

Our tightest curves are O72, but I usually run her on the outside main that is O96 i think.

I can vouch for Brian. I have seen his Hudson run on the club layout. Actually I think the inside curves are 096, then 104 and 112 for the outside curve and it is flat.

Pete

FCTT-Hirailers

This is a great topic, I don't know how I haven't commented already. Educational & informative as well as great to watch.

Updated progress on Larry’s Kline Hudson...the last report saw the completion of the marrying of the chassis to the boiler shell......we were just in the beginning stages of mock up.....now that things are falling into place like I want them, we’ve begun coloring, and chemically blackening the necessary parts...we’ve stripped the paint off the MTH drivers, and treated them to some black oxide as well as the frame sections that were trimmed in the fitment process...I’ve left the new mounting screws in their zinc finish, so y’all can see where I mounted the MTH chassis to the new stub plate under the boiler casting....we stripped and painted to match the grey MTH steamchest, and added the correct valve and rod gear that Larry & I discussed recently.....we knocked that out of the park!...we completed the snifter valve install with detachable plumbing, making it easier for Larry to service if the need arises....parts from the MTH pilot are combined with the Kline pilot to make the best looking pilot assembly......now we can really see what things are shaping up to look like....fit & finish are looking over the top...next order of business is to modify the front pilot truck with more scale sized wheels, and add the rear truck...that’ll complete the rolling chassis ....once we have a smooth rolling chassis, it’s on to the inside......

Pat

Harmonyards, your work is amazing, thank you so much for your attention to detail, I see the red paint above the drivers on the valve handles, so cool. Wow. It just gets more exciting ever time you show progress on this K-Line Hudson. All I can say is this is a fantastic project. Simply Amazing.

Modelling or is it fabricating at its best.

Here’s some more updated progress on Larry’s Kline Hudson....

I haven’t had much time in the RR shop due to work, but I did manage to get done some work tonight....here’s Larry’s Hudson in full roller status....we’ve fitted the Kline rear truck to the MTH chassis, and built a front truck with much more appropriately sized pilot wheels....front truck parts are MTH frame, Lionel wheels, and Kline brake detail...

Larry’s pretty much out of the woods as heavy fab work is concerned, so now we’ll turn our attention to power and electronics.....beautiful model so far....we’ll add some cool minor details, like a better headlight lens, reflector and bulb as we go along....but now it’s time to begin work on the inside.....

Pat

Pat

Looks great!  What product do you use to chemically blacken the rods and rims?

Thanks,

Mike

@Hump Yard Mike posted:

Pat

Looks great!  What product do you use to chemically blacken the rods and rims?

Thanks,

Mike

Mike, the rods remained the chrome finish, after Larry & I discussed what the final product should look like....the drivers and drive block were treated to a bath in Caswell’s cold black oxide solution .....great product, easy to use, and affordable .....they have a wide range of black oxide products, for different metals. This is the product for steel, but it works great for zinc, brass, and other metals....except stainless, but they have a special oxide that does that.....take a look at their website, it’s easy to navigate, and you can purchase directly from them, no minimum orders....

Pat

Thanks Pat!

I have several early ps1 steam engines that were upgraded years ago, but still have the shiny rods.  More fun projects for this winter.

Mike

Pat,

To blacken the drive wheel rims, do they need to be removed or can they be left on?  What is your process for this?

@Hump Yard Mike posted:

Pat,

To blacken the drive wheel rims, do they need to be removed or can they be left on?  What is your process for this?

No....no need to remove wheels.....process is quite simple, if you plan ahead, and prepare the chassis.....the chemical is a water base, so you’ll want to remove everything from the chassis, but the drivers.....the chassis MUST be spot on clean!..no grease, no oils no nothing.....all the grease must be removed from the gear well.......I use parts washer solvent first, and remove all the grease and oils...then I’ll use compressed air to blow the chassis dry and look for grease spots or oil....repeat till free...blow dry, then give the chassis a bath in dawn soap with a tooth brush, this is to get it past water break, while in the soapy water, I’ll use a scotchbrite pad to lightly scuff the shiny rim flange, this prepares the shiny chrome surface to accept its fate and turn black.....after you’ve dunked it for a couple minutes, pull the chassis out, rinse, and wipe the rim area to check and see if the acid has “bit” ....repeat till desired darkness...then rinse with hot water, blow dry, and soak the chassis with a penetrating oil, like WD40 or similar..this does two things, it’ll displace any remaining moisture, and it’ll soak in to where the acid began the blackening process.....and give your work piece a good blackened luster....

Pat

Pat, Wow, it’s looking fantastic, I’m so happy. When you add all the detail parts, deck plate, curtains, the ERR systems, the Gunrunner Johns smoke Chuffer System with the MTH smoke unit, Awesome.... This is Exciting. Thank you for doing such a thorough job on making this a world class Hudson. Harmonyards, a great place to make your dreams come through. Happy Railroading Everyone, it’s a fun time in the hobby of model trains. Thank You Pat.

Update on Larry’s Kline Hudson chassis swap:

now that we’ve completed making the majority of things look as they should on the outside, we can begin to turn our attention to the whole reason we came here in the first place, the large Pittman drive train......we begin by selecting the right size Pittman to squeeze into the back of the Kline cab area....we use a 9433F686 Pittman for this job, the stock MTH mount will need to be relocated slightly to allow the Pittman to go by as the boiler is mounted to the chassis...the flywheel has to be custom made here in the shops to clear the Kline boiler shell as well....although the new motor is NOS, we’ll still dismantle it completely make sure everything is cleaned and well lubricated before assembly begins, worm shaft, bearings, spacers and shims are all carefully inspected and properly lubed for installation.....the motor mount is machined for flat head screws so the flywheel can sit back in the pocket of the firebox, so when we’re doing this swap, the fight is moving the motor forward, but the flywheel back, or it will be an ugly soar thumb protruding through the bottom of the ash pan area ....we’re not having that....also note the motor wires are pre-wired in ....ready for the next step...also note, yes, I like all my parts polished like jewelry, no, we’ll never see them again, but I know they’re in there, and having high quality hand made parts let’s me sleep at night...😉

Pat

Harmonyards, Fantastic work, I’m so excited seeing this great progress. So, what’s  the next step in line for this amazing Hudson? How soon will the electronics be installed and when might we see a test run? Thank you very much for the neat pictures and beautiful chassis and powerful Pittman motor and superior quality hand made parts. Simply awesome, keep the pictures coming. This is a Wow. Happy Railroading Everyone

@harmonyards posted:

...also note, yes, I like all my parts polished like jewelry, no, we’ll never see them again, but I know they’re in there, and having high quality hand made parts let’s me sleep at night...😉

Pat

I like your altitude.   Nice touch making the inside looks as good as the outside.  Just like old world craftsmanship.

Thanks for chiming in Gunrunner John, and I’m excited about having your chuffing unit in this rebuild. It’ll also have your smoking system, ERR and more. It’s going to be a really cool hudson.

Needs more best Hudson .

@Lou1985 posted:

Needs more best Hudson .

Annnnnnnnnd, .....where did that Hudson come from??....go ahead and tel them,....they already know....🙃

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Annnnnnnnnd, .....where did that Hudson come from??....go ahead and tel them,....they already know....🙃

Pat

If you want to get technical it came incomplete and required several sources to make whole .

@Lou1985 posted:

If you want to get technical it came incomplete and required several sources to make whole .

Ya mind stopping dancing around the inevitable?....do you need exclamation marks!...to make it clear to understand!..let’s not be technical!..

Pat!

@harmonyards posted:

Ya mind stopping dancing around the inevitable?....do you need exclamation marks!...to make it clear to understand!..let’s not be technical!..

Pat!

You provided the base parts. Still needed to source some components and decals to make it whole. Nothing like the latest gem you found.

Those ATSF 3460 class Hudsons are much nicer than the NYC pieces .

My esteemed colleague Lou, @Lou1985 ...you’ve opened Pandora’s box on a proper thread to do so, .....let the bashing begin!...I’m sure Larry won’t mind, we are talking about the sleekest hot rod to come out of Schenectady, which IS the NYC’s J class of Hudsons.....pure grace standing still, ...NOW, your Baldwin built ....shall we say, 🥴....to look at, is about as romantic as a fart.....and don’t get all excited about your precious Goose, ....more of a do-do bird, since it’s as sleek as an Easter egg.....thank god they only made ...what??......one??.....even they said ..”bad idea”....how many Dreyfus designed Hudsons??....1,?...2?....how bout 10?...that’s popularity buddy.....look at the lines!...it screams elegance!...big difference between the two, ....a sleek race horse, or a dump truck....

Pat

If those NYC Hudsons were so good how come they all got scrapped? There's still a couple ATSF Hudsons around .

No J class was doing this: Remembering the Distance Record of Santa Fe 3461 — Coalition for Sustainable Rail (csrail.org)

@Lou1985 posted:

If those NYC Hudsons were so good how come they all got scrapped? There's still a couple ATSF Hudsons around .

No J class was doing this: Remembering the Distance Record of Santa Fe 3461 — Coalition for Sustainable Rail (csrail.org)

They kept yours around to remind people what not to build...........

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

They kept yours around to remind people what not to build...........

Pat

I thought they just took that NYC stuff out with the trash on garbage day? Is that what you do with recycling ?

We're both not quite right though. There is only one best Hudson: Milwaukee Road class F7 - Wikipedia

@Lou1985 posted:

I thought they just took that NYC stuff out with the trash on garbage day? Is that what you do with recycling ?

We're both not quite right though. There is only one best Hudson: Milwaukee Road class F7 - Wikipedia

Nope, ....a distant second place to the NYC is the F7, .....good news for you though, the ATSF is in 3rd......😉

Pat

I've yet to see any speed or distance records for the "mighty" NYC Hudson . Seems like they are lacking in the performance arena.

Lets not get started on that overrated NYC Northern......

@Lou1985 posted:

I've yet to see any speed or distance records for the "mighty" NYC Hudson . Seems like they are lacking in the performance arena.

Lets not get started on that overrated NYC Northern......

The Central did not have to run away from the ugly......yes, I concede to the historical facts, which I’m sure you’ll bring up, about the tractive efforts, HP, etc.....but what my grandaddy taught me rings true for the “mighty ATSF” .....

” if you’re gonna be ugly, you’d better be tough”

Harmonyards, your picture of the 5344 on your work bench is Beautiful, my favorite hudson design. Thank you so much for your work on my Kline Hudson, it’s going to be a 1 of a kind in total performance.... WOW.

@harmonyards posted:

The Central did not have to run away from the ugly......yes, I concede to the historical facts, which I’m sure you’ll bring up, about the tractive efforts, HP, etc.....but what my grandaddy taught me rings true for the “mighty ATSF” .....

” if you’re gonna be ugly, you’d better be tough”

Too tough to scrap apparently .

Semi back on topic are you squeezing the ERR CC in the boiler or are all the electronics going in the tender?

On Larry’s Hudson?......the CC and John’s Chuff stuff will all fit in the boiler, only the  RS stuff will go in the tender, .....this’ll make plenty of room for a nice whopper speaker, and keep the tether wires down to a bare minimum, allowing me to use the stock tether receptacle on the loco, and then use a straight tether so Larry can have a deck plate and what not,.....this way, we’ll get rid of that Anaconda of a factory tether.....it just cleans up what’s already the world’s most recognizable locomotive.........ever....😉

Pat

@leapinlarry posted:

Harmonyards, your picture of the 5344 on your work bench is Beautiful, my favorite hudson design. Thank you so much for your work on my Kline Hudson, it’s going to be a 1 of a kind in total performance.... WOW.

Oh you’re quite welcome Larry, .....thank you for agreeing with “ your FAVORITE design” ......see Lou??.....outclassed again, ......I’m actually piddling away at your brackets for all the electronics tonight while I’m pounding our good friend Lou into the dirt .....☺️

Pat

If I may post a comment or three here...  My vote for the most handsome Hudson is most certainly for the NYC version - there is just something intangible that displeases me with the AT&SF version, not quite sure what it is. The boiler face seems 'slapped on' compared to the NYC to me and the overall look is 'not as nice' as it's east coast brother. I've considered getting a model of the Santa Fe unit but just haven't been able to talk myself into it!

I read the piece on the MR F7s you posted Lou, quite interesting thanks. I remember reading a piece in Trains magazine from back in the early 70's (1973?) by the fireman on an aging PRR T1 Duplex that was pressed into service when a double headed K4 locomotive needed a replacement in Crestview OH I think it was. They pulled the T1 off of the back lot and hitched a sizable consist of mail cars and passenger cars and set out for Ft Wayne. On the last leg of the trip, they pushed her beyond the speedometer and covered the final 30+ something miles in less than 15 minutes. Estimated speed of over 130mph!

@harmonyards posted:

Semi back on topic are you squeezing the ERR CC in the boiler or are all the electronics going in the tender?

On Larry’s Hudson?......the CC and John’s Chuff stuff will all fit in the boiler, only the  RS stuff will go in the tender, .....this’ll make plenty of room for a nice whopper speaker, and keep the tether wires down to a bare minimum, allowing me to use the stock tether receptacle on the loco, and then use a straight tether so Larry can have a deck plate and what not,.....this way, we’ll get rid of that Anaconda of a factory tether.....it just cleans up what’s already the world’s most recognizable locomotive.........ever....😉

Pat

K-Lines came with a 6 pin tether, or was it 8? K-Line Berkshire I worked on had a 6 pin, but it started life as a conventional locomotive.

You doing dual speakers or a single one? When I put PS3 in that K-Line Berkshire I used a big 4ohm speaker for some nice, deep, chuffs. Not sure if twin speakers will fit in a Hudson tender. We're not dealing with Mohawks here...

The Kline’s have a 6 pin tether, ....putting as much stuff in the boiler as I can means I can get away with just a 6 pin tether.......plus using a straight 6, I can add deck plate to Larry’s and the tether will look like part of the auger system....it stops being an eye sore, and becomes a good looking part of the locomotive.....here’s my Kline with the MTH chassis swap, and you can see, no Anaconda looped all over the place....truly looks like an important part of the locomotive.....

@c.sam....yes!..your vote counts!...chalk up yet another for the J class......we’ll root Lou out with a stick!,....and everybody else is welcome ....to gang up on ol’ Lou....🤣

Pat

Harmonyards, that’s a fantastic scene of your awesome roundhouse setting, excellent colors, great track work, and a beautiful hudson just on the track outside the facility. I notice no deck plate on your model, are you going to ad more details to yours? I am so excited about how great this project is going, it’s a Wow. Thank you for all the fun. This thread is not only Heated, it’s Hot.... Keep the pictures rolling, your work is superb. Happy Railroading Everyone and Merry Christmas.

With the CC in the locomotive you're only running speaker, coupler, and backup light power to the tender so you're good with the 6 pin. Hopefully Larry is running his Hudson on 072. Straight tether might be an issue on 054 or 042, but 072 and wider and he's fine.

As for these NYC J class Hudsons I can't find any statistics where they are "best". The ATSF 3460 class, Milw F7, and CNW E4s all had more tractive effort, higher boiler PSI, more horsepower, larger drivers, and a higher top speeds. Just because the Js were "prettier" doesn't make them best. Statistically they are not even close .

Good morning Larry,

Hope you are doing well.   May I suggest that you have Harmonyards Pat send me your Hudson when its done so that I can run it on my layout. I will send it to you when I am done with it. You can trust a lawyer.  I would also appreciate it if you could send me a 2020 Honda CRV EX if you happen to have one lying around

Erol 

Lou 1985, thanks for chiming in as your and Harmonyards conversations makes for some great thoughts, which are mostly way over my learning curve. My layout has 072 diameter curves as the minimum radius, going to 081-090-099-0108. (Atlas O Gargraves, Ross Custom trackage) This way we can run most any engine or car made on this layout. We are actually mostly Legacy, however I fell in love with this particular K-Line TMCC Hudson and made a great deal with Pat to make this Steamer Great Again. I’m proud of his workmanship and focus on a quality build. This #5343 J1e NYC K-Line Hudson should be a good looking, fun to run locomotive. It’s a great time to be in the Hobby.

Beautiful layout Larry. That engine will look great pulling a long string of passenger cars which it will do now. 12, 13, maybe 15 even which is close to prototypical.

As for the straight tether, no worries. They came with a straight tether and it will still do 031. Most steam engines come with straight tethers anyway. I believe only MTH uses the big loop.

Pete

Larry, great looking Hudson and it will fit right in on your wonderful layout! I can see many years of fun running it!

@Lou1985 posted:

As for these NYC J class Hudsons I can't find any statistics where they are "best". The ATSF 3460 class, Milw F7, and CNW E4s all had more tractive effort, higher boiler PSI, more horsepower, larger drivers, and a higher top speeds. Just because the Js were "prettier" doesn't make them best. Statistically they are not even close .

You're probably correct Lou about the performance of the prototypes but I am strictly going by the visual appeal of the two to me personally - the west coast hudsons certainly are handsome in their own right!

In a similar fashion, I've always preferred the N&W Class A steamer over the venerable challengers and big boys for the reason that that the A's appear more 'hunkered down' than the others which in model form sometimes appear top-heavy to my visual perspective! Again, strictly personal. :-)

@leapinlarry, yes I have my deck plate, cab curtains and better figures for the cab on the ready, just haven’t installed them yet.....I had just finished proving this swap when you asked me to do yours, so I haven’t had a chance to pull mine back off duty, I figured I’ll catch it when it due for service,....it runs everyday of the week on the not-so keeping pace Pacemaker.....Since my good buddy Pete turned me on to Al Judy to finish my layout, I’ve turned into a bit of an operator!....I can’t take my eyes off his astonishing work!...So the Hudsons & Mohawks and the rest of the supporting classes got to earn their keep!..

as far as what’s next for yours, by the weekend I’m hoping to have some what I like to call dry runs happening, in other words, the Cruise Commander in, and some functional testing of the actual locomotive on the pike, doing its job!..hauling heavy stuff around!....won’t be any sounds, lights or smoke yet, but we want full control, crazy smooth performance, and tons of power....THEN we can add the fun stuff, sounds, smoke, lights, & details to make the 2 railers proud ( as much as they can be of us anyways) ....stay tuned!..

@c.sam ....don’t swell up Lou’s head anymore than it already is!..we already have a hard enough time getting him through the door!..🤣🤣🤣🤣🥲...good stuff on the thread....no?...

@Lou1985 keep things in perspective!....F7’s were known to throw things at you! .....( you know this, we read it and shared the info together!!) ....the green Twinkie ...( CNW) is about as appealing as your Goose ( again 🦤 bird) !..the Central rostered an impressive number of Hudsons, 275 total units, to be exact, only one was ever lost to accident....the rest finished their careers ...quite an accomplishment for as you say, an underpowered locomotive....no??......those ATSF Hudsons, yes powerful, are just no prize to look at, the NYC Hudson is such a powerful image, such a presence, even the most famous train it pulled, the 20TH CENTURY LIMITED, is always put on print in all capital letters....SO!.. even the history books recognize its significance,.....keep your HP and boiler numbers...the Central had style, grace & speed......you get one of those 3....sooooo...FAIL...😉

@locolawyer .....I’m sure you could head to Larry’s house and run the graceful lines of a locomotive that IS the NYC’s J class....no other Hudson compares!...named after the very river the locomotive was designed to run alongside!...all the others, wannabes.....ain’t that right Lou??...😁

Pat

@Lou1985 posted:

Just because the Js were "prettier" doesn't make them best.

Yes it does!!!

NOTE from OGR:  picture removed because of possible copyright.  Don't re-post it without following our TOS.

@harmonyards posted:

@Lou1985 keep things in perspective!....F7’s were known to throw things at you! .....( you know this, we read it and shared the info together!!) ....the green Twinkie ...( CNW) is about as appealing as your Goose ( again 🦤 bird) !..the Central rostered an impressive number of Hudsons, 275 total units, to be exact, only one was ever lost to accident....the rest finished their careers ...quite an accomplishment for as you say, an underpowered locomotive....no??......those ATSF Hudsons, yes powerful, are just no prize to look at, the NYC Hudson is such a powerful image, such a presence, even the most famous train it pulled, the 20TH CENTURY LIMITED, is always put on print in all capital letters....SO!.. even the history books recognize its significance,.....keep your HP and boiler numbers...the Central had style, grace & speed......you get one of those 3....sooooo...FAIL...😉

Pat

Hyundai sells more cars then Lexus. Quantity /= Quality . I venture to say The Chief is a little more famous train.....

In model form all the Premier Hudsons share the same chassis/driveline design, so the all preform pretty much exactly the same. Which means they'll all pull more cars than can fit on most layouts.

@Lou1985 posted:

Hyundai sells more cars then Lexus. Quantity /= Quality . I venture to say The Chief is a little more famous train.....

In model form all the Premier Hudsons share the same chassis/driveline design, so the all preform pretty much exactly the same. Which means they'll all pull more cars than can fit on most layouts.

Although I can appreciate your tactics change, since you’re  losing the argument, you are the one that cited boiler pressures, tractive efforts, etc......I’ve never seen those listed on the side of those purple or orange boxes?...am I missing something??......and the LTD. is so famous, so entrenched in literature, it’s even part of anything to do with the Art Deco time period!....the Chief??.....Chief who??....plllllllllleaseee.....try again.....gosh, I’d thought for sure you’d bring up the El’ Capitan before the Chief!....

Pat  

@harmonyards posted:

Although I can appreciate your tactics change, since you’re  losing the argument, you are the one that cited boiler pressures, tractive efforts, etc......I’ve never seen those listed on the side of those purple or orange boxes?...am I missing something??......and the LTD. is so famous, so entrenched in literature, it’s even part of anything to do with the Art Deco time period!....the Chief??.....Chief who??....plllllllllleaseee.....try again.....gosh, I’d thought for sure you’d bring up the El’ Capitan before the Chief!....

Pat  

Tactical change? From the one who went from NYC Hudsons can't compete on technical/statistical level to there were more of them so they were obviously better? All I did was point out the fallacy in the quantity = quality argument .

If anything SP's GS4 class Northerns are the most entrenched, well know, representation of Art Deco style in railroading. The 1937 20th Century Limited is a distant 2nd or 3rd, behind the Super Chief.

It also helps that all the best railroading icons still exist in physical form for future generations to appreciate .

Lou and Pat,

The following is what we need to agree to. The New York Central Hudson is one of the greatest locomotives ever. I have both the Lionel Vision Line Black #5344 and Grey #5331 Hudsons, the MTH proto 1 #5344 Hudson upgraded to proto 2 with LEDs by my very good friend Marty Fitzhenry, and MTH  proto 1 Empire State Express also upgraded to proto 2 with LEDs by Marty.

We also need to acknowledge that the Santa Fe F3 Warbonnet paint scheme is one of the most beautiful of all time. I have three Lionel SF F3 sets, 1958 2383 AAs, 2004 TMCC AA set upgraded to ERR 100 (from 32 speed steps) and RS 5.0 (from RS4), and a separate board and speaker put into the trailing dummy A by Gunrunner John, and 2018 Legacy ABA set. The trailing dummy A unit will shortly have a board and speaker put into it by Gunrunner John. Think of it, three units with sound that will all work together at the same time as they will be set to the same ID number. Should be nice and loud just the way I like it

Since I have several NYC Hudsons and Santa Fe F3s with the Warbonnet paint scheme and they get along, I think you guys can also agree to disagree and respect each other's opinions as both have merit. If you don't want to agree, a lawsuit can always be brought

Erol 

@Lou1985 .....again, tactical change, what in the world does bringing in a Northern to the conversation have to do with with a 4-6-4 wheel arrangement locomotive? ....the readership on this thread is concentrating on that discussion, stop clouding the discussion with far off topic machines......your dodge, perry, thrust & spin methods are being seen right through.....none of the named trains on the Santa Fe can hold a candle to the 20TH CENTURY LIMITED, ....far more famous than the Chief, the Super Chief, or the El’ Capitan...( I hope I spelled that right ) not a whole lot of info on the web about such a “famous” train.....if the ATSF was so much more glamorized, so much more romanticized, why didn’t Joshua Lionel Cowen jump on a train, and go to the ATSF to make his first big leap into the scale world?..instead ...he went with .......a NYC Hudson!....I wonder why??......

quantity/=quantity?..more like weak arguments = tactical changes!...

but listen buddy, there is hope for you, there is something you can take for this: .....so take two of these, and call me in the morning....😉

Pat

Pat,

I would be happy to take either one of the two locos in your photo above. Not looking to be greedy and take both.

Erol

@locolawyer posted:

Lou and Pat,

The following is what we need to agree to. The New York Central Hudson is one of the greatest locomotives ever. I have both the Lionel Vision Line Black #5344 and Grey #5331 Hudsons, the MTH proto 1 #5344 Hudson upgraded to proto 2 with LEDs by my very good friend Marty Fitzhenry, and MTH  proto 1 Empire State Express also upgraded to proto 2 with LEDs by Marty.

We also need to acknowledge that the Santa Fe F3 Warbonnet paint scheme is one of the most beautiful of all time. I have three Lionel SF F3 sets, 1958 2383 AAs, 2004 TMCC AA set upgraded to ERR 100 (from 32 speed steps) and RS 5.0 (from RS4), and a separate board and speaker put into the trailing dummy A by Gunrunner John, and 2018 Legacy ABA set. The trailing dummy A unit will shortly have a board and speaker put into it by Gunrunner John. Think of it, three units with sound that will all work together at the same time as they will be set to the same ID number. Should be nice and loud just the way I like it

Since I have several NYC Hudsons and Santa Fe F3s with the Warbonnet paint scheme and they get along, I think you guys can also agree to disagree and respect each other's opinions as both have merit. If you don't want to agree, a lawsuit can always be brought

Erol

 

This ain’t nothing Erol!....you should see our inboxes!...this is everyday 7 days a week, till we pass out,....perhaps a little background might help the legal counsel ....we’re actually good friends, sharing ideas, methods, schematics, motors, tests, parts back and forth, locomotives back and forth, ALTHOUGH!, ....you have to keep an eye on Lou, ....him being from Cicero and all....🤣🤣🤣...he’s shaky, flaky, and half baked,.....shake & bake!...

Pat

Pat,

I can tell that you and Lou are friends. Although I do not know Lou, my very good friend (RIP) Marty Fitzhenry was also a friend of his and told me he is a good guy. Just having some fun on this thread with you guys and Larry. I spoke with Larry a few weeks ago and he told me what you were going to do with his K-Line Hudson. You have certainly put a lot of work into it. I think Larry is going to be very happy with it. Keep the photos coming and do a video when you are done with the engine. Many of us would like to see that.

Erol

Clouding things?

You say NYC Hudsons are the best ever. I disprove it with statistics showing they are not.

Then you say that the NYC had the most Hudson, so they had the best ones. But quantity is not the same as quality.

Then they are best because they pulled the 20th Century Limited. But the Super Chief is a much more well know train.

Then you say the Dreyfus version of the Hudson is the most well know art deco locomotive, when clearly the SP GS4 Northern, another art deco locomotive is more well know.

Then I'm from Cicero, when I'm clearly from Chicago proper, which is far more corrupt.

Deflection upon deflection and falsehoods galore.

I rest my case.

At least we can agree that the PRR had the worst/ugliest steam locomotives. That's a fact. They never even had a Hudson. Such poor motive power decisions.

@locolawyer posted:

Pat,

I can tell that you and Lou are friends. Although I do not know Lou, my very good friend (RIP) Marty Fitzhenry was also a friend of his and told me he is a good guy. Just having some fun on this thread with you guys and Larry. I spoke with Larry a few weeks ago and he told me what you were going to do with his K-Line Hudson. You have certainly put a lot of work into it. I think Larry is going to be very happy with it. Keep the photos coming and do a video when you are done with the engine. Many of us would like to see that.

Erol

Marty is and always be a super hero in my eyes!...spoke with him many a time at train shows!...Marty was very kind enough to give me the quick nickel tour at my first York event not that many moons ago!....and he hardly knew me, but treated me like we were old pals!....legendary gentleman......now Lou, ...Lou’s lucky Pete & I let him like us!..🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Pat

@Lou1985 posted:

Clouding things?

You say NYC Hudsons are the best ever. I disprove it with statistics showing they are not.

Then you say that the NYC had the most Hudson, so they had the best ones. But quantity is not the same as quality.

Then they are best because they pulled the 20th Century Limited. But the Super Chief is a much more well know train.

Then you say the Dreyfus version of the Hudson is the most well know art deco locomotive, when clearly the SP GS4 Northern, another art deco locomotive is more well know.

Then I'm from Cicero, when I'm clearly from Chicago proper, which is far more corrupt.

Deflection upon deflection and falsehoods galore.

I rest my case.

At least we can agree that the PRR had the worst/ugliest steam locomotives. That's a fact. They never even had a Hudson. Such poor motive power decisions.

You make this stuff up as you go along man!!......I have yet to see an Art Deco anything reveal any hint of a GS locomotive!...I’ve seen tons and tons of Henry Dreyfus inspired 20TH CENTURY LIMITED images on everything from poster art, to lamp shades in Applebee’s restaurants for the love of Mike!...but yes, the readers have spoken and the case is rested, the NYC Hudson is 10 times more famous, was produced is greater quantity, had an impressive career, and is an American Icon the world over!...WHERE’s THE GOOSE IN ALL OF THIS.??.......you buddy.....I think is the only person on this forum EVER to post a build thread about a Blue Goose!...( am I wrong???) ......what about NYC Hudsons?...hit search, and it’ll explode when it finally loads!...hmmmmfff....ATSF Hudsons!???.....I’m not impressed,....you’ll hav to show us more,.....😴😴😴

Pat

Lou1985,

Just how much actual REAL steam locomotive experience do you have, i.e. working on the real thing????

I would be more than happy to debate your ridiculous assumptions/statements, as I have been on the crew of SP 4449 since 1975, and the UP Steam Crew, as a contractor, for about 17 years, ending in October 2010.

@Hot Water posted:

Lou1985,

Just how much actual REAL steam locomotive experience do you have, i.e. working on the real thing????

I would be more than happy to debate your ridiculous assumptions/statements, as I have been on the crew of SP 4449 since 1975, and the UP Steam Crew, as a contractor, for about 17 years, ending in October 2010.

I don't have steam locomotive experience, but I have years of experience giving @harmonyards a hard time about his NYC Hudson obsession 😉.

@harmonyards when we gonna see this on rollers running 1-2 scale mph? That's the beauty of these chassis/motors. Effortless low speed power.

I really wish there was a way to dyno these things before/after the swaps. Drawbar pull isn't the end all, be all. I'd love to be able to measure torque at the wheels on rollers.... so I know how far backwards one of those 3460 class Hudsons will pull that tiny J1e backwards while it spins its wheels 😄.

@Lou1985 posted:

@harmonyards when we gonna see this on rollers running 1-2 scale mph? That's the beauty of these chassis/motors. Effortless low speed power.

I really wish there was a way to dyno these things before/after the swaps. Drawbar pull isn't the end all, be all. I'd love to be able to measure torque at the wheels on rollers.... so I know how far backwards one of those 3460 class Hudsons will pull that tiny J1e backwards while it spins its wheels 😄.

Should have the CC in this weekend, and be doing dry runs on the roadway ....possible video this weekend, or the beginning of the week.....I’ll prove Larry’s Hudson for performance, then add the goodies.....the purpose of testing  like that is, without sound, it’s easy to detect any noises or anomalies that could show up from such an invasive swap, .....just like when I send you locomotives, we prove them before you install the PS kits, ......they’re proven before we add the expensive stuff......one time and done.....

there’s no doubt in my mind the model of the 3460 would drag a J class model,...those 3460’s are much bigger than a J class.....and a whole lot uglier.....so ugly, make a freight train take a dirt road....😉 there’s just no style!...now, in that dept. ....the ATSF Hudsons are clearly at the top.....so congratulations......🤮

Pat

Harmonyards, this thread is getting very exciting, (sometimes heated) your work is amazing, and your testing everything along the adventure before finishing the electronics is a great idea. Without sounds you can hear if there’s any rubs, noises, you might say hickups before more additions. I like your work ethic, Thank You.  I’ve spoken to Localawyer concerning these hudsons and I agree seeing the wheels turn will be lots of fun. You might say a Demo run on the race track.  He just purchased the VL black Hudson which is also a spectacular model. At one time my thoughts were the K-Line mold was the same used for the VL hudson. Either way, this K-Line Hudson is in good hands and when all is said and done, it’s going to be a fantastic Locomotive to pull some long trains on my layout. Keep the pictures coming. Hot Water, I sure enjoyed watching your video with Rich Melvin, OGR The Video. My layout was in OGR The Video 10. This is a super fun hobby, model trains are fun. Have a great weekend Everyone. Progress is in the air, let the fun begin. Happy Railroading Everyone

@harmonyards posted:

Should have the CC in this weekend, and be doing dry runs on the roadway ....possible video this weekend, or the beginning of the week.....I’ll prove Larry’s Hudson for performance, then add the goodies.....the purpose of testing  like that is, without sound, it’s easy to detect any noises or anomalies that could show up from such an invasive swap, .....just like when I send you locomotives, we prove them before you install the PS kits, ......they’re proven before we add the expensive stuff......one time and done.....

there’s no doubt in my mind the model of the 3460 would drag a J class model,...those 3460’s are much bigger than a J class.....and a whole lot uglier.....so ugly, make a freight train take a dirt road....😉 there’s just no style!...now, in that dept. ....the ATSF Hudsons are clearly at the top.....so congratulations......🤮

Pat

That's the key to this: smooth running before any command control. We've both been in those forward facing RS385 K-Line chassis. There is just no way to make it smooth at low speed. We tried. Even your Pittman swap into that chassis can't compare to swapping the entire chassis. Larger motor, more low speed torque, makes for perfect low speed performance pulling a train. Larry will be pleasantly surprised how much better his Hudson is going to run. It'll put a Legacy version to shame 😉

Brawn, speed, and style. Things those ATSF Hudsons had over the NYC Hudsons in spades 😉. Actually if you check the test stats between a 3460 class and J3a there isn't a huge amount of difference according to the tests performed by each road. So fire up the DeLorean, go back to 1940, find two identical 12 car heavyweight trains, and run 'em. Good old fashioned drag race.

Here ya go Larry a concrete example. I converted a K-Line Berkshire, with the same forward facing RS385 motor, to PS3 for a friend. With the K-Line chassis and motor the locomotive just doesn't have the low speed torque/smoothness to run cleanly below about 10 scale MPH.

Pat and I talked about it and, like with your Hudson, we decided the best course of action was a chassis swap, in this case a Lionel chassis from there Legacy version. Pete checked parts fitment and found the Lionel chassis was a drop in swap. Lionel used the same tooling as the K-Line Berkshire but put the motor in the firebox, as God intended. Same Pittman motor Pat is using in you Hudson. Pat had to machine a custom flywheel to fit but it all dropped right in after that.

No comparison. Rear facing motor chassis/large Pittman is a beast. You're gonna love it.

@Lou1985 posted:

That's the key to this: smooth running before any command control. We've both been in those forward facing RS385 K-Line chassis. There is just no way to make it smooth at low speed. We tried. Even your Pittman swap into that chassis can't compare to swapping the entire chassis. Larger motor, more low speed torque, makes for perfect low speed performance pulling a train. Larry will be pleasantly surprised how much better his Hudson is going to run. It'll put a Legacy version to shame 😉

Brawn, speed, and style. Things those ATSF Hudsons had over the NYC Hudsons in spades 😉. Actually if you check the test stats between a 3460 class and J3a there isn't a huge amount of difference according to the tests performed by each road. So fire up the DeLorean, go back to 1940, find two identical 12 car heavyweight trains, and run 'em. Good old fashioned drag race.

Brawn yes, ....speed, debatable ....they both were powerful for the jobs they were assigned, .....style, this is a NO.....FAIL ....we’re getting close to being in agreement but you just can’t get the concept that the ATSF Hudson is an ugly duckling....now IMO, and this is opinion only, the longer Northern looks more appropriate....the ATSF Hudson looks like a crumpled up shortened version of that Northern no??....I’m not going by anything but looking at pictures......good thing I can look away, the ATSF Hudson hurts my eyes,.....wish I could un-see what I’ve seen....🤣

Pat

@Lou1985 posted:

Brawn, speed, and style. Things those ATSF Hudsons had over the NYC Hudsons in spades 😉. Actually if you check the test stats between a 3460 class and J3a there isn't a huge amount of difference according to the tests performed by each road. So fire up the DeLorean, go back to 1940, find two identical 12 car heavyweight trains, and run 'em. Good old fashioned drag race.

Except,,,,,,,,,,the Santa Fe 3460 class were quite slippery, and even the best Engineers had a heck of a time starting a good sized train. They also tended to "lose their feet", i.e. slipping, at speed. The NYC J3a locomotives were equipped with a booster on the trailing truck, and thus could start a substantial passenger train with ease.

We used to have TWO of the J's, one the first MTH Premiere model and the K-Line. What a beautiful site to see these two in operation!

@c.sam .....wow, that’s a beautiful layout!....sure dwarfs mine!...

can’t help but to notice, ....I see no ATSF Hudsons, ......anywhere.....do you @Lou1985 ??.....interesting...😉

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

@c.sam .....wow, that’s a beautiful layout!....sure dwarfs mine!...

can’t help but to notice, ....I see no ATSF Hudsons, ......anywhere.....do you @Lou1985 ??.....interesting...😉

Pat

Are there Hudsons in that picture? It's hard to tell. Those eastern road locomotives are so tiny It's hard to tell if they are there 😄.

I think we're all waiting for the video of that chassis swapped K-Line to be lugging a 8 car heavyweight train, something that stock motored one would die trying...

Also you know what's a ATSF Hudson? Most postwar Lionel Hudsons....

https://www.tandem-associates....trains_2055_loco.htm

All this talk about "Hudsons". Someone please show me where the Hudson river flows through Kansas and New Mexico.

The only true "Hudsons" are those on the New York Central. All the rest are just plain ole 4-6-4's

On a side note the ATSF 4-6-4 never made it onto an album cover.

The Dreyfus was on a Commodores album and  Van Halen thought it was so cool, they copied it decades later:  http://www.feelnumb.com/2012/0...ovin-on-album-cover/

C Sam, Wow, Beautiful Hudson’s, beautiful layout, thanks for the gorgeous pictures. Happy Railroading

@Lou1985 posted:

Are there Hudsons in that picture? It's hard to tell. Those eastern road locomotives are so tiny It's hard to tell if they are there 😄.

I think we're all waiting for the video of that chassis swapped K-Line to be lugging a 8 car heavyweight train, something that stock motored one would die trying...

Patience grasshopper!...much to learn, have you?..hmmmmpf?...

Pat

@RickO posted:

All this talk about "Hudsons". Someone please show me where the Hudson river flows through Kansas and New Mexico.

The only true "Hudsons" are those on the New York Central. All the rest are just plain ole 4-6-4's

On a side note the ATSF 4-6-4 never made it onto an album cover.

The Dreyfus was on a Commodores album and  Van Halen thought it was so cool, they copied it decades later:  http://www.feelnumb.com/2012/0...ovin-on-album-cover/

Thank you Rick!....if we keep knocking him around, he’ll see the light!...I’m boxing up a locomotive for ol’ Lou tomorrow, I’ll be sure to stick some thicker glasses in there,....then he’ll see the ugly on those ATSF Hudsons.....

Pat

*pulls pin in preparation of tossing a grenade into the thread*

Gentleman, we are ignoring the maxim that form follows function.  And the well engineered Water Level Route, simply had no use for an ugly brute that was required by the Santa Fe.  Why overbuild something that's just going to beat up the track if you have something that can already handle all the limiteds and expresses that you could want.

@naresar posted:

*pulls pin in preparation of tossing a grenade into the thread*

Gentleman, we are ignoring the maxim that form follows function.  And the well engineered Water Level Route, simply had no use for an ugly brute that was required by the Santa Fe.  Why overbuild something that's just going to beat up the track if you have something that can already handle all the limiteds and expresses that you could want.

Pin pulled, grenade landed in opponents lap....😉

to add, form meets function on two separate notes, ...both of which come from the book “ Thoroughbreds” by Alvin Staufer, ....as noted; the clean lines of # 5200 were for two reasons, first low clearances dictated the low roof designs of the cab, and Alco simply had a devotion to clean, horizontal lines.....

Pat

If you look back I never said the NYC Hudsons were bad looking. They just don't look as good as the ATSF Hudsons 😉.

@Lou1985 posted:

At least we can agree that the PRR had the worst/ugliest steam locomotives. That's a fact. They never even had a Hudson. Such poor motive power decisions.

What?! That hurts! We Pennsy guys love our K-4s. Built to work, not a show horse.  But shall we digress and compare the GG1 to the NYC P motor? Ha, lol.

@Will posted:

What?! That hurts! We Pennsy guys love our K-4s. Built to work, not a show horse.  But shall we digress and compare the GG1 to the NYC P motor. Ha, lol.

Unfortunately for the Pennsy fans, when our friend Lou finds himself against the ropes with out any argument left, he lashes out at the next available railroad.....mind you, none of us mentioned anything about the PRR ......the debate between the K4 and the Central’s Hudson has been discussed before, and I’ll remind Lou that he’d be comparing apples to oranges with the two. Two completely different platforms, with different tasks given the terrain each locomotive faced......The Pennsy was clearly proud of its K4 class, and built them in huge numbers .....a lot more K4’s than Hudsons .....So popular amongst PRR fans and state historians alike, the K4 is affectionately named the the state’s locomotive, and a bill was passed to prove it.......so yet again, Lou losing ground.....

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

@Lou1985 posted:

At least we can agree that the PRR had the worst/ugliest steam locomotives. That's a fact. They never even had a Hudson. Such poor motive power decisions.

Unfortunately for the Pennsy fans, when our friend Lou finds himself against the ropes with out any argument left, he lashes out at the next available railroad.....mind you, none of us mentioned anything about the PRR ......the debate between the K4 and the Central’s Hudson has been discussed before, and I’ll remind Lou that he’d be comparing apples to oranges with the two. Two completely different platforms, with different tasks given the terrain each locomotive faced......The Pennsy was clearly proud of its K4 class, and built them in huge numbers .....a lot more K4’s than Hudsons .....So popular amongst PRR fans and state historians alike, the K4 is affectionately named the the state’s locomotive, and a bill was passed to prove it.......so yet again, Lou losing ground.....

Pat

I'd like to remind everyone that the K4s predated both of the Hudson's that have been bantered about by almost 20 years - and had more tractive effort than both the J-1e and 3450 class.

I for one think the K4s is the most beautiful and well proportioned steam locomotive ever built.

I just acquired the same K-Line Hudson  and am very interested in seeing how Leapin' Larry's project turns out. Mine runs great in its "stock" configuration, but I may just want to have it upgraded someday.

As for which locomotive is the most beautiful, as they say, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." Even though they are from rival railroads, I think the J1e Hudson is the most attractive steamer ever built, and the K4s is a close second. Since some of you have brought up locos that you find to be unattractive, the one that takes that prize in my opinion is the C&O Yellowbelly. Now that, in my opinion, is a face only a mother could love!!

I'll stand by the offhanded remark about PRR locomotives. Their prolific use of the squared  Belpaire firebox design (I know for the coal they used), flat smokebox fronts, flat pilots, and high mount headlights is not aesthetically pleasing to my eye. Just weird designs.

But back on Hudsons . ATSFs 3460 class was bumped from The Chief by diesels after WWII. NYCs Hudsons were bumped from the 20th Century by 4-8-4s, because they couldn't hack it on the flat "Water Level Route" any more. ATSF only had to use 4-8-4s in the mountains, not on the flat terrain between Chicago and La Junta, CO. Superior 4-6-4 eh ?

@Lou1985 posted:

I'll stand by the offhanded remark about PRR locomotives. Their prolific use of the squared  Belpaire firebox design (I know for the coal they used),

Again, your lack of technical knowledge is amazing! The Belpaire firebox design had NOTHING to do with the fuel burned. Remember that the Great Norther RR also used the Belpaire design, with many of their locomotives using oil fuel. An advantage of the Belpaire design is, all the staybolts are of uniform/standard length in any given area, when compared to a radial stayed firebox design.

flat smokebox fronts, flat pilots, and high mount headlights is not aesthetically pleasing to my eye. Just weird designs.

Well,,,,,,,to each his own, I guess. Then again, I never really cared for the appearance of the Santa Fe steam locomotives, plus I have never been a fan of Baldwin Locomotive Works products. From an experience standpoint, my first choice is, and always will be, Lima Locomotive Works (NKP 700s and SP GS class), followed closely by American Locomotive Works (UP 800s and 3900s).

But back on Hudsons . ATSFs 3460 class was bumped from The Chief by diesels after WWII. NYCs Hudsons were bumped from the 20th Century by 4-8-4s, because they couldn't hack it on the flat "Water Level Route" any more. ATSF only had to use 4-8-4s in the mountains, not on the flat terrain between Chicago and La Junta, CO. Superior 4-6-4 eh ?

You failed to comment on the slippery issues with the Santa Fe 3460 class locomotives.

Now, lets not forget that the NYC J3a Hudsons operated from Harmon, NY to Chicago, IL, taking water on the fly, and only taking fuel (coal) at Cleveland, Ohio.

Messed up on the firebox. My apologies. I was thinking of the Wootten Firebox for low grade coal:  Wootten firebox - Wikipedia Got them mixed up. Don't deal with PRR stuff all that often .

I've read and own a copy of The Santa Fe's Big Three by Farrington. Slippery or not the ATSF was quite please with the 3460 class. In fact they were regularly assigned to the Fast Mail Express in addition to The Chief because of their power...

@rplst8 posted:

I'd like to remind everyone that the K4s predated both of the Hudson's that have been bantered about by almost 20 years - and had more tractive effort than both the J-1e and 3450 class.

I for one think the K4s is the most beautiful and well proportioned steam locomotive ever built.

Where do you get your information from?...again, as mentioned comparing the K4s to the central’s J class of Hudsons is like comparing apples to oranges.....however, your statement on tractive efforts is false....remember, J class Hudsons are equipped with booster engines, ( in the rear trailing truck)  the K4’s have no booster....so the the tractive effort of a J3a is right around 54,000 lbs. vs. that of a K4 at 44,500 give or take a few lbs. ........it is noted that although an expensive way to railroad, given the large number of K class the PRR rostered, it wasn’t uncommon on heavy PRR trains, to have them double or even triple headed.....the booster on a single J3a class was a dramatic increase in tractive effort to the sum of 10,000 pounds + ....

Pat

When I became involved in O Gauge, I wanted a K4. They have a great reputation over here, as “the locomotive that inspired Gresley to design the Flying Scotsman”

@harmonyards posted:

Where do you get your information from?...again, as mentioned comparing the K4s to the central’s J class of Hudsons is like comparing apples to oranges.....however, your statement on tractive efforts is false....remember, J class Hudsons are equipped with booster engines, ( in the rear trailing truck)  the K4’s have no booster....so the the tractive effort of a J3a is right around 54,000 lbs. vs. that of a K4 at 44,500 give or take a few lbs. ........it is noted that although an expensive way to railroad, given the large number of K class the PRR rostered, it wasn’t uncommon on heavy PRR trains, to have them double or even triple headed.....the booster on a single J3a class was a dramatic increase in tractive effort to the sum of 10,000 pounds + ....

Pat

Well, Lou opened a can of worms and this thread has digressed. K-4 has more tractive effort than the J class WITHOUT booster. I'm sure that's what rplst8 meant. Yes, the K4s were double headed through the mountains. I agree its apples and oranges, but maybe Lou should have let sleeping Pennsy fans lie. Design wise, I like the distinctive "hump" in the K4 boiler. It givers the engine a feline look of coiled power waiting to pounce.

But I happen to like the Hudson and the NYC as well as the Pennsy.

@Will posted:

Well, Lou opened a can of worms and this thread has digressed. K-4 has more tractive effort than the J class WITHOUT booster. I'm sure that's what he meant. Yes, the K4s were double headed through the mountains. I agree its apples and oranges, but maybe Lou should have let sleeping Pennsy fans lie. Design wise, I like the distinctive "hump" in the K4 boiler. It givers the engine a feline look of coiled power waiting to pounce.

But I happen to like the Hudson and the NYC as well as the Pennsy.

Yes Will it has, and mind you, this is a standard tactic of ol’ Lou,...🤣🤣🤣🤣 ....I’m not much of a Pennsy fan, so I can not, nor will I comment on looks, that’s to the eye of the beholder....I have no argument with the PRR fans, they have their favorites, the Central fans have theirs,.....and I’m not even sure how the K4’s got into this conversation, but we’re falling off track......the real argument is the one against the ATSF Hudson....like I said, when cornered, Lou likes a diversion .....to exit like a fox,....😉

Pat

Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe 4-6-4 "Hudson" Locomotives in the USA (steamlocomotive.com)

ATSF 3460: as built 48,618lbs tractive effort, 49,456lbs rebuilt. No booster .

I never said anything about a K4s. I just said PRR steam looks unattractive to me. Came out in the argument about looks, because that's the best argument the NYC guys have. But, as we all know looks are subjective. Tractive effort is not .  I don't think anyone was talking about K4s before today.

Speaking of tractive effort how's the subject Hudson coming along?

@Lou1985 posted:

Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe 4-6-4 "Hudson" Locomotives in the USA (steamlocomotive.com)

ATSF 3460: as built 48,618lbs tractive effort, 49,456lbs rebuilt. No booster .

I never said anything about a K4s. I just said PRR steam looks unattractive to me. Came out in the argument about looks, because that's the best argument the NYC guys have. But, as we all know looks are subjective. Tractive effort is not .  I don't think anyone was talking about K4s before today.

Speaking of tractive effort how's the subject Hudson coming along?

Might see signs of life this evening,.....as promised, it’ll be sometime this week for sure,......stop with the diversions man........stand your ground with your Shrek look alike locomotive!....just out of curiosity, how long did those 3460’s stick around for?......did they have a fabled career?....

Pat

1937 to 1953, the end of steam passenger and pretty much all steam operations on the ATSF. Steam operated once or twice a year after that up till 1957, but it was only a handful of 2-10-4s and 4-8-4s as helpers on wheat trains.

@Lou1985 posted:

1937 to 1953, the end of steam passenger and pretty much all steam operations on the ATSF. Steam operated once or twice a year after that up till 1957, but it was only a handful of 2-10-4s and 4-8-4s as helpers on wheat trains.

No, no,....just the ATSF Hudson,....not 2-10-4’s & 4-8-4’s.....

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

No, no,....just the ATSF Hudson,....not 2-10-4’s & 4-8-4’s.....

Pat

1937-1953, when regular steam operations ended on the ATSF.

I noted that above, just giving the caveat that there were some steam locomotives running after 1953, but only as emergency power.

For all of you throwing boosters around, those things cut out at a certain speed!

And, it seems to me that I have read more than once that NYC Hudson's had trouble getting out of Albany station going west with a heavy train without a pusher.

@Big Jim posted:

For all of you throwing boosters around, those things cut out at a certain speed!

And, it seems to me that I have read more than once that NYC Hudson's had trouble getting out of Albany station going west with a heavy train without a pusher.

Shake it any way you’d like ....tractive effort is tractive effort, .....if the booster is there, add it to the math....I can’t speak for Albany station’s practices,...I can speak of practices at Harmon, as Grandad worked there, never did he mention of pushers out of Harmon after having backed a steamer down the reverse loop to couple onto an outbound north or west,.....

Pat

Interesting Pat, not to hijack this thread but my grandfather, father and uncle worked for the central out of the Harmon yards. Dad told me many of stories and used to show me his squashed thumb complements of a tender drawbar pin.  Frome early 20s to  news photo and article I got of my uncle retiring off his geep I belive in 69

@Big Jim posted:

For all of you throwing boosters around, those things cut out at a certain speed!

And, it seems to me that I have read more than once that NYC Hudson's had trouble getting out of Albany station going west with a heavy train without a pusher.

Probably the steepest grade on the whole line coming out of the Hudson Valley to Schenectady. Then again they may have been pulling 18-20 heavyweights. They called them heavy for a reason.

Pete

@Big Jim posted:

For all of you throwing boosters around, those things cut out at a certain speed!

Yes, the Franklin Railway Supply "High Speed Booster" was good for speeds up to 25-30 MPH upon starting & acceleration. When descending in speed, the booster should not be re-engaged above 20 MPH. Such practice has worked very well for SP 4449 throughout her career, both in regular service, and since 1975.

And, it seems to me that I have read more than once that NYC Hudson's had trouble getting out of Albany station going west with a heavy train without a pusher.

Hard to believe that a "pusher" was used on any of the streamlined luxury passenger trains.

@E-UNIT-79 posted:

Interesting Pat, not to hijack this thread but my grandfather, father and uncle worked for the central out of the Harmon yards. Dad told me many of stories and used to show me his squashed thumb complements of a tender drawbar pin.  Frome early 20s to  news photo and article I got of my uncle retiring off his geep I belive in 69

How cool is that!?...great grandad worked out of Beach Grove shops, grandad worked out of Harmon as a mechanic in the electric shops, during the war they differed him, ( he wasn’t happy about that)  and he worked OT in the roundhouse as a Hostler and mechanic since he was qualified steam too......Grandad was good friends with Fred Beech, the company’s filmmaker .....he & grandad both wound up being hostlers due to man power shortages,...grandad said the highlight of his career was the first time he backed a Hudson down the loop ......I have pictures of him smiling ear to ear as he was standing with the road crew,....who weren’t smiling......

Pat

My dad was deferred too. When he returned he got his job back and I forget but I think a leather binder wit the central logo on it with all papers and metal cards honoring his service I think. I have them packed away I'll have to look at them again I'll post a few pics when I do. Small world. They probably knew each other. Dad worked Harmon at the roundhouse before and after the war.

@E-UNIT-79 posted:

My dad was deferred too. When he returned he got his job back and I forget but I think a leather binder wit the central logo on it with all papers and metal cards honoring his service I think. I have them packed away I'll have to look at them again I'll post a few pics when I do. Small world. They probably knew each other. Dad worked Harmon at the roundhouse before and after the war.

Yes it is, ...I have all of grandads tools, ....some of which, are so well made, I still use them to this day....all of his ball ping hammers, his chisels, all bearing NYC logos, that were no doubt made on site, .....really cool to use those tools on a daily basis at my work.......no neater feeling using the very tools he knocked on a Hudson or a Mohawk with, and here I am knocking a ball joint out of Bronco with the same hammer.........priceless!..

Pat

@Lou1985 posted:

Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe 4-6-4 "Hudson" Locomotives in the USA (steamlocomotive.com)

ATSF 3460: as built 48,618lbs tractive effort, 49,456lbs rebuilt. No booster .

I never said anything about a K4s. I just said PRR steam looks unattractive to me. Came out in the argument about looks, because that's the best argument the NYC guys have. But, as we all know looks are subjective. Tractive effort is not .  I don't think anyone was talking about K4s before today.

Speaking of tractive effort how's the subject Hudson coming along?

Well technically you didn't mention K4s but three days ago you said " At least we can agree that the PRR had the worst/ugliest steam locomotives. That's a fact. They never even had a Hudson. Such poor motive power decisions." And the equivalent PRR steam would be what? Nice try though.

Soooo....after a lot of back forth on this thread, here’s the reason we’re here in the first place!...updates on Larry’s Hudson!...so we’ve fitted and installed the Cruise Commander, and routed the basic wires for running .....the shape of the boiler shell dictates a perfect landing so the CC can’t scrub the inside of the shell,.....run/program switch will be mounted in the smoke box door for easy programming, along with smoke on and off......note the FR gasket paper used to line the boiler shell to protect the CC.....test runs tomorrow!...yaaaaayy!!!

Pat

Suggestion for @harmonyards, start a new thread with just the project information and photos and update this new thread with information about your locomotive project as you progress.  Leave this hodgepodge of diverted traffic to run its own course.  And edit the new thread's title with a new date to indicate when you've added new information and/or photos.  I'm tired of clicking on this thread only to discover more BS unrelated to your modeling work.