Are williams trains well detailed

The GP30s are detailed nicely and the FA1s are also nicly done. I have seen the GP7/9 and the GP38s. There not to bad but the they need to change out the stamped railings. The one thing is that there runners.

I have seen the larger diesels, SD90 etc...and the detailing is lousy.  

No, but for the price point the detailing is OK.

No

To me they look as nice as post war Lionel.

Rod Miller

Seems like the paint on the Williams GG-1s is a step above the LIONEL models - I always noticed the little text labels "Water" etc...around the bottom.  And the ones with the red window frames - I assume that's something prototypical?

But -  most of it looks pretty postwar-ish to me...

Roving Sign posted:

Seems like the paint on the Williams GG-1s is a step above the LIONEL models - I always noticed the little text labels "Water" etc...around the bottom.  And the ones with the red window frames - I assume that's something prototypical?

But -  most of it looks pretty postwar-ish to me...

I was just at the Pennsylvania railroad museum in Strasburg PA last Tuesday and the real GG-1's do have lettering on them for water and fuel.  Not 100% sure on the red window frames as I did not pay attention to that.

The details on some of the Williams engines, even by Bachmann Williams, is not that good at times. Another thing about Williams by Bachmann is the correct engine style is sometimes off, like they sub a GP-38 for a GP-39-2 model. Also Bachmann Williams is trying to sell SD-90's in the Norfolk Southern Heritage paint scheme, another non prototypical engine sold by Bachmann Williams.

Personally I don't mind that all the details are not there considering what I pay for the Williams models, as I usually buy the Williams on close out deals from internet venders. Bachmann's website lists their products at over 60% of what I can buy them from internet venders for.

Lee Fritz

I get such a chuckle on how critical people can be that can't even spell or use words properly. And I'm not talking typos.

Reality check.

Most of the Williams products were tooled up a couple decades ago, so the detail level is on par with postwar types of products. Because that is what many of the original Williams products were clones of. And because the original Williams business model was to compete with Lionel from the "collector pricing standpoint," offering more affordable versions of popular postwar favorites. Williams made a point of that in much of their early advertising.

The WBB RS-3 are made from the previous K-Line tooling, which are more recent that most Williams products. Also which K-Line made when they were going head to head with the competition in the scale side of the market. The FA-1 engines were I believe, among the last newly tooled items by the original Williams. And they were promoted by Williams as being more accurate and detailed, obviously designed to compete with a different product market than the traditional one.

Now let's consider the new WBB scale 44-ton switcher. Totally different product than the Williams clone of the postwar Lionel engine of the same type. Different markets and also different price points.

If you compare the Lionel standard 0 products tooled up in the 1970's, you'll also notice they do not have the same detail levels as do current scale products. 

Which is also the same reason why Mike Wolf moved many of his early Premiere line products to the Railking line: Because the detail levels were not up to par with the current industry offerings. But I suppose that makes them all "lousy." I'll let Mike Wolf know, but he won't care because the Railking line has always far outsold the Premiere line.

My point being, different product lines are aimed at different markets, but that doesn't make them lousy. The newly tooled Williams by Bachmann Baldwin steam engine is NOT on par with detail levels on other products tooled up in the same period. But it wasn't intended to compete with those products, as it is also included in starter sets.

I seriously doubt the entire scale product line of Lionel can come close to the successful sales figures of this one single starter set: The Polar Express. Does that mean the scale products are lousy? Absolutely no.

But what it does mean is the success of a traditional starter set with I suppose lousy detail has made it possible for Lionel to continue being in business. Which means Lionel can continue to make the scale detailed products that some folks want, but come nowhere close in sales figures.

The Williams diesels are some of the best out there. They're very close to scale but lack details like grabs and lift rings. I don't mind the stamped railings because they're not fragile like brass wire railings are. Here's a topic I started four years ago on this very subject. Hope this link gets you there.

Tom

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...s-diesels-besides-me

Here's my Williams E7 3039:

and my 3rd Rail E7 3029:

A big difference between the 2 as I see it is on the Williams E7 there's no window vent (triangular shaped window) at the front side of the cab, making the engine about 1/2" shorter than the 3rd Rail E7.

I did make some mods to the Williams unit, separate handgrabs, railings, etc.  these are actually 2 different versions.  The Williams unit has the numberboards forward at a 45 degree angle while the 3rd Rail has them back, more or less on the flat side of the nose.

Both have their "drawbacks" too.  Even the 3rd Rail unit doesn't have a few of the things the prototype had on the SAL.  One thing I added to the Williams unit is the angled step on the front nose of the fireman's side.  Neither came with it, just haven't put it on the 3rd Rail unit yet.  the Williams unit has a short fuel tank (I have since replace it with a longer tank I built) leaving a gap between the trucks.

I like them both and both run extremely well.

The Williams E7 now has a BlueRail wifi/bluetooth board installed and battery-powered, the 3rd Rail E7 still has TMCC installed.

I repainted the Williams unit with some paint I bought years ago at a ACL/SAL Historical Society meet in Richmond.  The 3rd Rail unit's paint was the result of a paint sample I sent them when they were developing their E7, the "Mint Green" matches perfectly!!!

Detailing will not hold up to a high priced engine. But at the Williams price they are pretty good. Keep in mind the more you want the higher Williams prices will go. That was never the intent of  the original Williams products.

Williams falls into two areas. There is an accurate side and a good enough side. Partly this is due to when the model was originally developed. A few engines are based on quite old molds.

The largest group of the styles are based on postwar Lionel molds so are as accurate as those were. These include the F3, Trainmaster, NW2, the small Alco FAs, and the Budd cars. The F7 was based on the postwar Kusan mold. 

There is a group that was done early in Williams production in the 80's that were newly developed by them and have inaccuracys due to trying to spread part costs over multiple models or having to accommodate big motors in narrow hoods. The E60's are very short because they wanted to use parts of the F3. The first production even used Lionel F3 parts. It was Williams first all new design. The SD45 has a very wide hood for the motor. The Metroliners are short. 

When Williams makes models based on new engines they seem to pick the wrong model. The SD90 was an unpopular prototype they are trying to monitize over time and different schemes. The Genesis is a very good model that sadly they made before the final look was locked in. The prototypes were altered quite a bit with new windsheild designs and such before mass production. It was made around when the engine was first done though and Williams was trying to stay ahead of the game. 

The GP38 is passable if you look over the handrails.

The EP5 is a good model it is longer than the old Lionel engine and runs on the right number of axels. The BL2 is very well done with wire handrails. The scale FAs are great as is the E7, the Sharks and the PA.

I really like the Rectifier and the U boat. I really wish the handrails were wire. The Rectifier is a great  model with that one exception.

As a rule newer release engines the RS 3, the GE 44 tonner, and the GP 30 are as a rule very nice and scale. 

I think I got them all. There are some really good models in the Williams mix if you can be selective. I do appreciate that they stay catalogued for a good while so the pressure is less and they will run different numbers sometimes. I have a E60 #960 and one that is #964.

By today's standards, I would say "no".  But I like my brass Williams locomotives.  They run great!

George

I like Williams and WbB locos.

I agree the E units and FA's are more detailed than some other in the line. But it's easy to add some minor things to help these blend in with more detailed units. 

I cut the center section out of the end railings. Small hatches and vents are easy. Even just paint can really help. My WbB Dash-9 custom paint, decals and minor mods. 

I moved the fuel tank out a little too. All combined to make a presentable loco for just under $100. And rugged enough to not worry every time I pick her up!! 

Decals, end stripes, paint and number boards. Helps out some!! Thx

Uh brionel, K-line never had a GP30 in their lineup. K-line had a GP38 that has yet to be released. The scale GP30's and 44t are all new WBB tooling.

Like George said, the Williams brass engines (I have) have all been great runners.

There's quite a few of them on EBay right now for under $300 with a couple just over $200.

I know I said I wasn't going to buy anymore engines but I HAD to get another brass 4-6-2.  The guy selling all these Williams brass engines had one for $200 delivered so I pulled the trigger on the "Buy it now" feature.  The traction tires will need replacing but I've gotten accustomed to that with these older engines.

Uh brionel, K-line never had a GP30 in their lineup. K-line had a GP38 that has yet to be released. The scale GP30's and 44t are all new WBB tooling.

You're right. It was the RS-3 released by WBB that was made from the former K-Line tooling. And of course, some various rolling stock like the operating dump cars. I'll edit my post so that no one else gets the info confused. Thanks.

Bob Delbridge posted:

Like George said, the Williams brass engines (I have) have all been great runners.

There's quite a few of them on EBay right now for under $300 with a couple just over $200.

I know I said I wasn't going to buy anymore engines but I HAD to get another brass 4-6-2.  The guy selling all these Williams brass engines had one for $200 delivered so I pulled the trigger on the "Buy it now" feature.  The traction tires will need replacing but I've gotten accustomed to that with these older engines.

The other thing is that for those kind of prices, you can afford to drop a command system into them and have a fully functional brass TMCC locomotive on the cheap.

BTW, I have two Williams PRR K4s 4-6-2s.  Even got the front coupler replaced so I could double-head them.

George

Happy with mine. From a distance they all look pretty much the same. When in motion people tend to observe action and not little fine points. I park my more expensive engine up close for a static display.

The only real negative for Williams is that I have become spoiled by better SOUND.

Bob Delbridge posted:

Like George said, the Williams brass engines (I have) have all been great runners.

There's quite a few of them on EBay right now for under $300 with a couple just over $200.

I know I said I wasn't going to buy anymore engines but I HAD to get another brass 4-6-2.  The guy selling all these Williams brass engines had one for $200 delivered so I pulled the trigger on the "Buy it now" feature.  The traction tires will need replacing but I've gotten accustomed to that with these older engines.

The brass engines by Williams were a joint venture and are usually very well detailed. I think that Samhonsa(the same company that MTH once used for some large steam engines) in Korea made the brass shells for Williams and Williams installed the motors and circuit board.

Lee Fritz

Yes they are indeed Lee, a couple of the ones I have had the Samhongsa placard on them.  Samhongsa also made engines for Weaver.

Regardless of how you feel about all the major players in our hobby, I found this Western TCA blurb pretty interesting:

http://www.tcawestern.org/mth.htm

It's amazing how most of the current players are/were intertwined.

I think that the Williams Golden Memories F-3s are even better than most of the the original Lionel F-3s.  The all have front hand grabs, screen vents, and real portholes. You don't have to worry about batteries and they run beautifully in a non DCS/TMCC conventional mode. I agree that the railroad crossing horn sound is poor compared to say the MTH F-3s, and they lack details like applied handrails and rivets, but at today's used market prices they are a fantastic deal.  In many cases you can get mint stock with the original shipping cartons for about one quarter to one third of the old MRSP.

And the Williams brass is also a great bargain today, but you'll have to supply your own sound including the whistle.

lewrail

Because of current pricing I prefer to buy the older Williams before Bachmann. The new stuff is way overpriced and the engines don't have command control so you have to spend at least another $150.00 to upgrade.

Lee Fritz

I can live with the Williams lack of fine detail.  After all, we get what we pay for and Williams has a lower price point than other manufactures due to not having all the fancy electronics and fine and fragile detailing.  From a distance Williams looks great and even up close I have no problem with their product in regard to details.... however that is just me and certainly I'm not speaking for anyone else.  

Over the last several years, I lean toward purchasing, new in box, older Williams locomotives made when Jerry Williams owned the company.  I find these Williams items on the Bay from time to time and at train shows.  IMO these locomotives were of higher quality in the sense that out of the box they ran with no problems.  

There have been problems, out of the box, with the last four of seven  new WbB locomotives that I've purchased from retailers.  Problems range from dead on arrival, gears not properly installed, damaged tender/loco tether, short in dummy A unit caused by excess pick up roller spring wire touching frame.    I don't believe that a lower price point should coincide with lax quality control.   If WbB greatly stepped up quality control efforts most of these kind of problems could be eliminated.  

Although WbB products MSRP has increased considerably since they purchased Williams Electric Trains, these products are heavily discounted by retailers ( some of which are OGR and Forum advertisers ) and can be purchased at a much lower price point than the MSRP.   This low price point makes WbB attractive to hobbyists who don't want the fancy electronics or who like hearing the new sound system in some WbB locomotives.  

I must say, too, that I do like  the detailing on some of the newer WbB locomotives. 

Here's some photos I took of 3 of my Williams engines: Williams/Samhongsa brass N&W J 4-8-4, Williams/Samhongsa brass USRA 4-6-2, and the new WbB USRA semi-scale 4-6-2:

I have since converted the semi-scale 4-6-2 into an older Seaboard Air Line 4-6-2 as the semi-scale dimensions are closer to the SAL class P3 Pacifics.  I did change the domes, smoke stack, and running boards, along with the bell location to look like the prototype.

The 2 brass engines are BPRC using the Deltang and RCS systems and the semi-scale engine has the BlueRail board inside.

Along with Lewrail above, I've always like the 'Golden Memories' series as for the most part they are improvements over the PW Lionel in many areas. Especially with the FA2 Alcos that are beautiful reproductions of the early UP, Erie, and Rock Island Lionels. Those had die-cast frames and pilots and were very good runners. After these Lionel greatly cheapened this line with sheet metal frames that overlapped the shells (Ugh!) and the plastic pilots broke easily.

Williams on the other hand has die-cast frames and powerful motors and excellent graphics. The current catalog offers a beautiful blue/yellow Santa Fe freight scheme like Lionel's PW model that was one of the cheap ones. Even when the LCCA commissioned Lionel to reproduce the original for them some years ago, it too is the cheap model. William's is much nicer overall.

Here's the current Williams model, a right handsome locomotive!

I just picked up my first Williams loco - a nice New Haven EP-5. (EP-100 - Cab #358)

I have to say - much nicer than any of the LIONEL EP-5s I've handled.

The MPC era LIONELs feel like they are falling apart...Not sure the older, proper post-war models are any different - but this feels solid.

Oh and - nice to know the EP-5 had 6 wheels per truck - not 4!!!

Granted this a more modern model - but - there is no contest!!!

Hello guys and gals.........

I had a Lionel "LTI" era F-3's and also Williams F-3's ( sold the LTI lionel F-3's but kelp the Williams F-3's). They both are under detailed but I didn't care.  I can tell you this much that the Williams is very far in superior in construction wise, better painted shells, better plastics use to make the shells out of which is ABS plastic,  metal gears (bronze) , better metal casting finishing on the frames.  But there was a issue they are sometimes poorly assembled as mine was and I had to install mylar washer cut to a "V" slot and slip in the axles (non-gear side to take up the slop) that's about it.  They run very well and fast.  The lionel LTI era F-3's was that I purchased #18117 S.F. new in the box ,made in 1993 in USA. and they gave me all kind of problems such as poorly finished painted shells (rough paint spots) all the gearing is black plastic, worm gear is white plastic, both armatures were bend that's right bend (had to replace both of them) brush plates had no bronze bearing (postwar ones were better), casting finishing was ok.  I had to spend 93 dollars in parts (metal gears, new armatures, postwar brushplates, extra trust washers for the armatures) to get it to run right, it was truly a piece of junk so I got rid of it and will never again mess with LTI era. lionels. The OLD 2383's f-3's of 1958 to 1966 were lot better than the LTI ,MPC era. but the body shells were crudely painted but what was INSIDE that counts.   I took a big loss in selling it, won't be doing this dumb move again.   All in All the Williams F-3's is a sure winner (after fixing the axle play slop with mylar washers, needed 2 per axle) I have no regrets and really enjoyed running them.  Under-detailed so what !!!, less detailing make it easier to handle it without breaking fine details off.  If you want lot of details then go to brass locomotives but you will have hard time picking it up with out fearing of breaking a small detail off when the engine is heavy (lead weight installed at the) factory.

Tiffany

I have several Williams engines, mainly from the Crown Edition era, and they run very well. Have not had one break down. The detail may not always be the best but the engines work very well.

Lee Fritz