Opinions wanted: Best Scale K4?

The high iron one is on my list to get. I have the K-line one with smoke deflectors. Lionel legacy Tuscan brown and a Weaver brass one.
The k-line one looks larger then the other two.

Detail tho goes to the Weaver one for sure. When it comes to true scale I’m not to sure what to really compare them to.

When it comes to true scale I’m not to sure what to really compare them to.

Kohs

I have both numbers of the High Iron Sunset K4 in the 2 rail Postwar version.  I like them very much for value for the money, but they have some compromises to accommodate both the 3 and 2 rail versions.  The front of the boiler and the wheelbase on the front truck are slightly elongated.  Most people wouldn't notice the difference though. 

I second Kohs being the definitive version when then can be found.  The Precision Scale K4 is also a very high fidelity model, but not known for its running qualities.  However, both are 2 rail only models which is where the best representations of steam locomotives are often although not always found.

I too am searching for the High Iron K4 Version as well as the Tuscan Lionel legacy version. I do have the Williams Brass versions, the Weaver Torpedo version, and the Postwar K-line as well as the smoke Deflector versions and love the smoke deflector version.

I am glad I dumped the Lionel Odyssey version.

So which one is this one Pennsy people?…..I’m not a Pennsy guy, nor do I pretend to be one,…..but I have this one leftover from the MTH sale out,…..it’s PS3, lacks a motor and electronics, but esthetically all there,…..all I know it’s a K4 ….couldn’t tell you prewar, postwar or no war,….😁

Pat

Both Weaver and Williams offered the PRR K4. I do believe that both were built by Samhongsa. One of these is the one I would choose, though I have no PRR K4 model at all, so I have no direct knowledge of the others.

But - I recommend the 2 above because of the other locos that were produced by Samhongsa in Korea  for both. Brass, well-made, reasonably detailed, durable, well-geared. I have several locos from this group, all nice, and brass pieces are almost always superior to zinc - not necessarily as models, but as maintainable machines.

Here are my photos of my High Iron K4s as well as the Williams version.  My Williams is a 3 rail.  My Williams needs a little work as the lead truck does not track as well as I'd like.  It too has the elongated front portion of the boiler to accommodate the 3 rail flanges of the lead truck.

This is the Williams version.  It is the Prewar one.  Williams later offered a Postwar Version.  A little light on detail, but scales out fairly well beyond what I mentioned above.

Sunset High Iron K4

Sunset K4s in the front, Williams hiding behind.

@harmonyards posted:

So which one is this one Pennsy people?…..I’m not a Pennsy guy, nor do I pretend to be one,…..but I have this one leftover from the MTH sale out,…..it’s PS3, lacks a motor and electronics, but esthetically all there,…..all I know it’s a K4 ….couldn’t tell you prewar, postwar or no war,….😁

Pat

OP are you going to run the locomotive a lot? If so this is your answer. Stick a Pittman motor in it, whatever electronics you want, and go. These MTH K4s are bullet proof mechanically. Oil, grease, and go. I can't say the same for the other K4 models. They may be more accurate or detailed but they won't run forever like this MTH model will.

@Trainwreck nate posted:

The high iron one is on my list to get. I have the K-line one with smoke deflectors. Lionel legacy Tuscan brown and a Weaver brass one.
The k-line one looks larger then the other two.

Detail tho goes to the Weaver one for sure. When it comes to true scale I’m not to sure what to really compare them to.

Note the early Williams and Weaver brass K4s models were made by the same Korean Mfg, Samhongsa. Yes the Weaver models had a bit [but not by much] more detail than the Williams one.

@harmonyards posted:

So which one is this one Pennsy people?…..I’m not a Pennsy guy, nor do I pretend to be one,…..but I have this one leftover from the MTH sale out,…..it’s PS3, lacks a motor and electronics, but esthetically all there,…..all I know it’s a K4 ….couldn’t tell you prewar, postwar or no war,….😁

Pat

This is MTH latest prewar PRRK4s with the correct PRR striping. As ststed above, install your favorate electronics and enjoy!

Sweet looking prewar version. Love the wheel pinstripes. I’m sure the 6 wire drawbar tether can make some electronic installs interesting.

Was Lionel's TMCC run of the 1361 K4 and the other road number back in the day high iron or not? I have that early 1361 minus the gearbox issue. I like the pilot how it was designed on that one more than. The Legacy version with the smoothed up pilot. Reminded me of Mad Max and some of the crazy fronts on the cars(original Mad Max).

The 3rd rail high iron is hands down the best from what I’ve seen. I have 2 legacy K4s (Tuscan & long haul tender) and a k-line w/ elephant ears which @harmonyards has for a Pitman upgrade. They all have pros and cons. The late MTH models aren’t to be overlook, they’re incredible but not quite the 3rd rail IMO.

Nothing in 3 rail will look quite as nice as the High Iron but they are a bit of work to get set up, especially if purchased used and the PO was ham-handed. It’s amazing what people do to their trains and I don’t mean that as a compliment.

The best running and second best looking would be the Lionel (ex K-Line) Legacy ones. Both Lionel and High Iron got the driver size correct which I feel is critical to the K4’s overall looks. Interestingly enough, the Lionel TMCC K4 and a half from 2001 has the correct driver size but an elongated boiler. It has the best TMCC RS4 sounds imo, which I have used a few times in some of my projects over the years.

Here’s my second High Iron that I picked up kinda cheap. I really wanted the 1361. I fixed quite a few things on it and also used it as a test bed for some experiments in 3D printing. I also got to try some new paints for weathering which almost ended in disaster. It’s still a marginal runner imo with the original EOB and stock pulley/gear ratio. I swapped the glitchy RS4 sounds for the Lionel 1361 sounds but it could stand to be louder. I may put ERR in and swap the pulleys to get a bit more top end. I think it maxes out just under 60mph.

Norm's assessment is pretty accurate.  I had one in three rail, and it shed parts on every lap.  It also ran very poorly under TMCC.  In what has to be a marvel of Chinese engineering, they managed to make metal springs that did not conduct electricity, hence the signal to the loco was poor.

I sold it when I went to 2 rail

I then got a 2 rail version for dead cheap (I think $200.00) knowing full well it would have problems.  It did, and I fixed them.  I later installed DCS, and it ran on my layout for quite awhile until I decided to go all electric.  It is now on the shelf.

As for the Kohs...I had one of those too.  It looked really good sitting on a shelf.   But it was very delicate. 

@D500 posted:

Both Weaver and Williams offered the PRR K4. I do believe that both were built by Samhongsa.

But - I recommend the 2 above because of the other locos that were produced by Samhongsa in Korea  for both. Brass, well-made, reasonably detailed, durable, well-geared. I have several locos from this group, all nice, and brass pieces are almost always superior to zinc - not necessarily as models, but as maintainable machines.

I would second this assessment, adding only that the Lionel die cast models (early-mid 1990s) made by Samhongsa are also very durable and attractive. What they may lack in the latest "bells and whistles" department they make up for in being good runners and are at least "repairable" for an owner/operator such as myself.

Mark in Oregon

@NYCBuffalo posted:

Sweet looking prewar version. Love the wheel pinstripes. I’m sure the 6 wire drawbar tether can make some electronic installs interesting.

Easily swapped to a 10 pin draw bar, or just use a straight tether, and leave the 6 pin be,….more than one way to skin a cat,….😁

Pat

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

Nothing in 3 rail will look quite as nice as the High Iron but they are a bit of work to get set up, especially if purchased used and the PO was ham-handed. It’s amazing what people do to their trains and I don’t mean that as a compliment.

The best running and second best looking would be the Lionel (ex K-Line) Legacy ones. Both Lionel and High Iron got the driver size correct which I feel is critical to the K4’s overall looks. Interestingly enough, the Lionel TMCC K4 and a half from 2001 has the correct driver size but an elongated boiler. It has the best TMCC RS4 sounds imo, which I have used a few times in some of my projects over the years.

And you ain't kiddin:

K-line front, Odyssey Lionel Rear

K-line front, Odyssey Lionel Rear

K-line

Lionel Odyssey

Lionel Odyssey pony truck compared to brass scale one

tender comparison

Odyssey tender Left, K-line right

All photos by me. [see my name on lower right]

I'm glad I sold off my Odyssey version. She GONE!

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

And you ain't kiddin:

K-line front, Odyssey Lionel Rear

K-line front, Odyssey Lionel Rear

K-line

Lionel Odyssey

Lionel Odyssey pony truck compared to brass scale one

tender comparison

Odyssey tender Left, K-line right

All photos by me. [see my name on lower right]

I'm glad I sold off my Odyssey version. She GONE!

I do remember being told by my LTS owner that the K4'S Lionel had been making were all from the K-Line tooling, at least that is from the 2012(think it was) 1361. I remember him telling me that it was more accurate than the old Lionel tooling, much like the B6(K-Line) version they also produced.

The MTH version looks nice enough and runs very well.  The prototype for that one is an early version with straight catwalks and lack the automatic oiler (I think its called) on the fireman’s side above the piston and valve.

This is true of even the postwar cast pilot version which would have been an unlikely, and maybe nonexistent combination.

Also, the prewar version has the larger tender with taller coal bunker sides, which lacking the oiler is an odd combo too.

Mark, I can’t totally trash those TMCC K4s. I just used the 5385 sounds in my 3rd Rail M1b. Lionel in that era really made some nice soundsets. They seemed to take the time to detail them out with different whistles and even the chuffing effects are different (1361 has really good cutoff effects at different speeds).

The tender comparison photo is interesting. I believe K Line modeled the 110P75 tender which Lionel also used for their ca. 2012 Legacy K4s with builder plates erroneously deco’ed for a 130P75. If one can find one of the old Lionel K4.5s for cheap, it would make a good donor for a diecast 130P75.

Photos are the Legacy tenders plates with the HI in between.

So I got the engine (high iron version) in the mail, set it to 4 chuffs per rev and everything’s seems to be working fine except for the fact it’ll randomly stop after a 30 seconds to a minute of running with tmcc. Sounds and headlight stay on, but it won’t respond. If I hit engine 1 on the TMCC remote, it’ll be responsive again and run fine for a little while before the same thing happens after the same amount of time.

i tested it conventionally and had no issues. Any idea what’s going on here? Some kind of dead or dying board?

For some reason my HI K4 likes 32 step cruise better and runs decently enough with cruise off. I am running the stock pulleys. I am still thinking about changing it over to ERR at some point. I also want a Fat Boy speaker in the tender so I’ll have to redo everything. This engine really liked hanging out in the shop!

Norm, I actually watched your recent videos on the high iron K4 to see what I would potentially be up against here. What's interesting is that I immediately opened up the engine to pin the pulley like you did on yours because I knew that would probably give me an issue, but to my surprise it was already pinned. Looks like a factory job too, so I'm not sure what happened there but I'll take it. The EOB encoder tape on mine is also thankfully still secure (for now).

It's got the same flashing tender light as yours did as well which I'll have to address.

I had a prewar/slat pilot one and sold it a few years ago and also worked on a pal’s 1361 a few years ago. My old one ran pretty well and I suspect it may have had some work done on it before I had it. Maybe yours had some work done on it too. I know a lot of these went back and forth to 3rd Rail for service.

I swapped the R2LC on my current one as the old one was not very responsive. I also reworked the antenna although it was probably not totally necessary. I just don’t like 3rd Rail’s fully floated tender shell antenna arrangement. Adding a third pickup roller to the tender made it more reliable.

I could probably get two more YouTubes out of this project but I’ve probably bored my poor viewers enough with it at this point. I filmed the weathering and cosmetic adventures but I’m not sure I’ll post it up.

Neither here nor there, but I found some old photos taken of my various K4s with my Windows phone.  That tells you how far back that was!  The camera on that phone was generally terrible but you can see in these two photos the difference between the Williams model (left in the top photo) and the High Iron Sunset model in the bottom photo.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

I could probably get two more YouTubes out of this project but I’ve probably bored my poor viewers enough with it at this point. I filmed the weathering and cosmetic adventures but I’m not sure I’ll post it up.

Surely no one will complain about more of your wonderful videos Norm!

@Norm Charbonneau

Another vote for posting the weathering video.  

I have seven K4s including five MTH Premiere, one Williams Streamlined and a Lionel Legacy and the Lionel Legacy is the best runner in my honest opinion.