Forgive me if there are other threads detailing this issue. I would love to know which smoke fluid you have had the best results with. My friend told me that he learned from Mike Reagan that the Lionel fluid works best because it does not "gunk" up the resistors. I tried the Lionel "Premium" and I am getting better smoke production. Your experience?
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I just ordered the Lionel Premium Smoke fluid from MIKE REAGAN for my VL Niagara. I'll let you know how it works for me. I have used JTs Mega Steam with no ill affects, but with new VL Niagara, I am not going to take a chance on ruining the smoke units.
I was skeptical, but Lionel premium has become my smoke fluid of choice.
This is based on amount of smoke as well as the duration.
I just wish it came in a 8 Oz bottle like Jts, instead of a 2 Oz bottle with 1.5 Oz in it.
Fyi Mike Reagan sells unscented in 1 qt bottles for $60.
I just did the same as Laz......Not taking the chance with my Niagara either. I had heard if you do use the JT smoke....you shold use the Eliminator every so often to cleanse the unit.
-Pete
A lot of chatter about JT vs Lionel smoke fluid.
I wonder where MTH fluid might fit in on the equation. ??
There is likely 2oz there. I think it would be a trade violation not worth the drops to be light on it. Have you measured it?
If your Lionel is under warranty then Lionel Premium is the only choice if you want to get warranty repair. You can agree or disagree with the policy but that is their stand.
I use Lionel Premium in my newer Lionel's. I use mega steam in older engines. Call me crazy but the MTH fluid reminds me of York so I exclusive use it I'm my MTH engines.
Phasing out Mega steam for everything except my Smoking tanker from MTH. The batting that comes out of the MTH Units after mega steam comes out like a maple color (From scents that have sugar such as Hot Chocolate, Gingerbread etc.) even when it is charred. Going back to MTH for MTH locos and probably will get Lionel Smoke for the Lionel Engines.
Mega steam is nice but the downside results in more maintenance when taking things apart.
Ditto on some of the above. After being an equal opportunity smoke fluid user I've settled in with Lionel Premium. Works best for me.
Most smoke. Last longer, no gunk. Lionel pemium!
You guys have turned me. I was a jt guy for more than 14year. Reading up on gunk issue, i am switching to lionel.
Have been using mega steam but after reading all this may want to give Lionel Premium a try
Question - Is there just one Lionel premium or are the Lionel scented smoke fluids part of the premium line ?
Has Lionel premium been around for awhile or is the better fluid part of recent production - I haven't purchased any Lionel fluid in a long time
Thx
Joe S
Scrapiron Scher posted:Forgive me if there are other threads detailing this issue. I would love to know which smoke fluid you have had the best results with. My friend told me that he learned from Mike Reagan that the Lionel fluid works best because it does not "gunk" up the resistors. I tried the Lionel "Premium" and I am getting better smoke production. Your experience?
Ditto.. I switched to premium when I first got the s’3’s with cylinder steam and it solved all my issues. I had used Jt’s before which seems to be a thicker more dense solution. I’m no chemist just my observations. Jt’s worked fine for stack smoke but when it comes to feature smoke effects it seems to be a poor fit. That’s where the lionel seems to make the biggest difference. We had a nice side by side of two legacy Berkshires. Unknowingly one had lionel premium and the other jt’s And the exhaust was similar although the lionel produced more volume. But whistle steam was no contest. It was a nice accidental comparison. Just my experience hope it helps.
Another vote here for Lionel Premium. Btw, why would JT have a need to create, manufacture, and sell an eliminator if their Megasteam burns completely and gunk free? Latent smells are generally a by product of left over residue and if there was no residue there'd be minimal or no smell whatsoever requiring elimination.
I’ve been using Mega with no problems. Apple Harvest
ogaugeguy posted:Another vote here for Lionel Premium. Btw, why would JT have a need to create, manufacture, and sell an eliminator if their Megasteam burns completely and gunk free? Latent smells are generally a by product of left over residue and if there was no residue there'd be minimal or no smell whatsoever requiring elimination.
Fair point. I didn’t think about that when Eliminator was introduced. Using it has helped free up what I think was a gummed up fan motor, so it must have some cleaning effect.
But over some years Lionel Legacy/VL smoke units seem to have become progressively more finnicky and prone to failure than older TMCC and MTH units. If that means they need Lionel fluid, so be it and I’ll use it. I have enough of the less troublesome older stuff to go on using what I am used to. That’s Megasteam and MTH Christmas scents.
dorfj2 posted:Have been using mega steam but after reading all this may want to give Lionel Premium a try
Question - Is there just one Lionel premium or are the Lionel scented smoke fluids part of the premium line ?
Has Lionel premium been around for awhile or is the better fluid part of recent production - I haven't purchased any Lionel fluid in a long time
Thx
Joe S
I know Lionel Premium has pine scent; maybe others.
dorfj2 posted:Have been using mega steam but after reading all this may want to give Lionel Premium a try
Question - Is there just one Lionel premium or are the Lionel scented smoke fluids part of the premium line ?
Has Lionel premium been around for awhile or is the better fluid part of recent production - I haven't purchased any Lionel fluid in a long time
Thx
Joe S
I think I said a few years ago on here that the smoke out put was poor. I believe the engine I used had an underperforming smoke unit. I think the scents smell better than the ones that JT sells that Lionel does.
Scrapiron,
For the same reason I have moved back to Lionel smoke fluid for Lionel steam and diesels. I have replaced the smoke unit and fans on all my units. I could not understand Why. Mike R and the Lionel crew told me their fluid is designed for their products, doesn't leave a film on the components or as you saus gunked up the works. Send lots of money on alternate fluids and quite frankly got tired of makeing repairs. I gotta belive their is some truth to this as my G Scale LGB units do not work well with alternatives so I will rebuilt that smoke unit and go back to LGB. Might be one of those psycho issues but.........
However, on MTH, I don't seem to have that issue, but with that said, I will use all the remaining alternate fluids I have and then probably convert to MTH fluid for MTH products.
The fact that Lionel has been making other scented fluids helped me move in that direction.
I like the other manufacturers as well but given the new comments in the Lionel Niagara Owners manual, they must have the data to support their policy.
Oh, well, I still have about 20 bottles to use up in my MTH engines that I got at York and since theysmoke fantastic, I am not gonna worry to much
Scented vs un-scented: I started using scented Lionel Premium per recommendations on the forum; but switched to un-scented in the Niagara - great smoke there. I am hesitant in using scented after seeing a brown residue separate out in the scented. Maybe that is the gunk so often referred to.
I am no expert on adding smoke fluid to a unit - have either drowned or starved many. Here are 2 links to an experiment that laidoffsick did regarding smoke fluid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRcpFRtA6IY#t=180
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1asUWbJtfok
When I rebuilt the stack smoke units on my Big Boy, I used 1 1/2 strands of Lionel batting in each chamber and an initial 70 drops of Lionel smoke fluid per chamber - no puddles and no running out when I inverted the units.
One last thing on dosage, I saw with the Big Boy that the fluid had a path to get thru - enough to wet the funnel, wet the resistor, then drip into the batting.
Most of my fleet is MTH, so I use MTH smoke fluid. I have diesels only and only a couple are Lionel. Personally, I like the Christmas scent the best. I didn't like JT's smoke scents that I tried, but I actually do like their Eliminator and it's scent so I use that sometimes as well. However, not usually for it's intended purpose, just for the scent. I have never tried the Lionel Premium, but I may give a couple of their new scented ones a try this winter.
I have always felt that the original American Flyer cedar scent was the best.
Scrapiron Scher posted:Forgive me if there are other threads detailing this issue. I would love to know which smoke fluid you have had the best results with. My friend told me that he learned from Mike Reagan that the Lionel fluid works best because it does not "gunk" up the resistors. I tried the Lionel "Premium" and I am getting better smoke production. Your experience?
I personally like the wide arrange of scents MTH offers but the smoke output becomes poor pretty fast in non-MTH locomotives. I use Lionel or JT’s smoke fluid in my non-MTH locomotives (Weaver, Atlas, and Lionel) and MTH protosmoke fluid in my MTH locomotives.
RickO posted:Fyi Mike Reagan sells unscented in 1 qt bottles for $60.
Is this available online?
MichRR714 posted:RickO posted:Fyi Mike Reagan sells unscented in 1 qt bottles for $60.
Is this available online?
mreagan@twtrainworx.com
RickO posted:MichRR714 posted:RickO posted:Fyi Mike Reagan sells unscented in 1 qt bottles for $60.
Is this available online?
mreagan@twtrainworx.com
Thanks Rick.
FWIW...
In my own VERY limited experience; I had been using MTH "Proto Smoke", because that's what I bought; my "new" Lionel E6 came with a small vial of Lionel (of course) fluid, so I tried it. It (the Lionel stuff) does appear to put out more smoke than the other product, so I have ordered another container of it.
Again, that's what I found to be the case; you veteran Lionel guys know a lot more, so (please) don't listen to me... 
Mark in Oregon
This might be the residue that Mike talks about.
Doug did two videos a few years ago. I rewatched them today. And it helped me make a decision on smoke.
I just wanted to throw this in....I'm no expert. There are many that have locomotives in need of the smoke units being re built. People don't want to tackle it themselves or go through the hassle of sending it in. Soooo... they trial run all kinds of smoke fluid to see if that will help the problem.These smoke units need the elements and the batting replaced every so often.If you have burnt resistors, burnt batting and fried smoke PCB's changing smoke fluid is "not gonna solve your problem"
Make sure you know your smoke unit is up to par first then decide on what fluid works best for you. At least thats my take on this.
Nick
Here, here Nick. I am with you on smoke units; having rebuilt the unit in the Big Boy and if you can find out what screws release the boiler, you can rebuild the unit yourself. I have been lucky in that Lionel had the parts I needed; else, fellas on the forum can help.
Those were very informative for sure; thanks for the links!
Mark in Oregon
I used Lionel Premium tonight in several Legacy locos where the smoke was poor. Tonight the smoke was outstanding !!
Lionel Premium for me in ALL Legacy locos.
RickM46 posted:Here, here Nick. I am with you on smoke units; having rebuilt the unit in the Big Boy and if you can find out what screws release the boiler, you can rebuild the unit yourself. I have been lucky in that Lionel had the parts I needed; else, fellas on the forum can help.
I have to agree with you Rick..it can be very intimidating to remove the boilers of the Big Boys, Challengers, etc. Just takes practice. Nick
rockstars1989 posted:RickM46 posted:Here, here Nick. I am with you on smoke units; having rebuilt the unit in the Big Boy and if you can find out what screws release the boiler, you can rebuild the unit yourself. I have been lucky in that Lionel had the parts I needed; else, fellas on the forum can help.
I have to agree with you Rick..it can be very intimidating to remove the boilers of the Big Boys, Challengers, etc. Just takes practice. Nick
Yes Nick, in addition, I must give credit to the fellas on the forum for helping me do the rebuild; you can't go wrong with their advice and patience and attention to detail.
railbear601 posted:I just don't get it...
...Inquiring minds want to know what is happening when you heat and burn smoke fluid.
If you are heating & burning smoke fluid, there is a malfunction somewhere.
The quest by the hobbyist to bring big plumes of dark coal smoke to O gauge railroads has been thwarted time and again by the realization that those "smoke" generators are, alas, simply just vaporizers.
No combustion.
railbear601 posted:...There is only one Chain Pharmacy in the Entire World that sells NO TOBACCO PRODUCTS and that Chain is CVS Pharmacy...
Wegmans Pharmacy would be the other.
There may be concerns in the scenting, but this is mineral oils for the most part. Not as clean as medical grade, but likely not much different or more dangerous than the air fresheners sold in these same stores.
I think your caught up in the word smoke Railbear. It's vapor. Evaporated liquid. A gas.
My pharmacist and doctor use mineral oil on cutting boards and wooden kitchen utenstils. They didn't see a likely hood of either use as likely being a health concern for me. The amount ingested is minimal. It's not like we are sucking on a smokestack. A trip in heavy traffic is far worse; my lungs tell me so every time I smell diesel 
I haven't used the Lionel Premium, but Protosmoke is the thickest fluid I've used, and my Generals unit will drown in it, failing to work for a week or so until enough evaporation and settlling can happen that the resistor can grow hot enough to work again. It works great on vintage Lionel fluid and P&P from Pat's. Lionel vintage lasts longer, P&P smokes better.
75 steam.locos and I use mega steam. even in the Niagara and have had zero problems to date! To me moderation is the key!
I do a lot of smoke unit work. The Mega Steam has always worked excellent for me.
I have been using Megasteam exclusively in my Legacy,MTH,even Williams engines for years and have had absolutely no problems with Megasteam.
I have been using Mega-Steam in all my engines for years and have had no issues with my smoke units. As others have said moderation of quantity of fluid use is key. I also think that Lionel needs to put this policy in writing if they plan on not warranting smoke unit issues if someone uses fluid other than their own.
I have always used JT Megasteam fluid and have not experienced any problems. I cannot say that it produces the most smoke or lasts the longest but it certainly hasn't damaged anything. The only thing that I have found is that you must be careful to not over saturate the smoking caboose units as, too much fluid will take a long time to burn off, and it stops the production of smoke in the process. I don't believe that the caboose units were ever perfected.
CSX Al posted:I also think that Lionel needs to put this policy in writing if they plan on not warranting smoke unit issues if someone uses fluid other than their own.
I agree with that 100%. It needs to be in writing and not mentioned at the time of RMA.
JT's Mega-Steam is alive and well. Mega-Steam is safe to use in all manufacturer's smoke units and all scales...PERIOD. We test and re-test our fluids on our large layout so that the product you purchase is of the very best quality...that is our pledge. We are proud of our 15 years of service to the hobby. Mega-Steam is consistent. Our product is the same product yesterday, today, and tomorrow. We are transparent in that what you see is what you get...PERIOD. We are transparent. You know who makes and sells our product and that product is proudly made here in the U.S.A. Our customer service is built on putting the customer first and our reputation is SOLID. Certainly, this is a threat to the larger manufacturers and they would have you believe that our smoke fluid will hurt your unit or void any warrantee. They would like nothing better than to have Mega-Steam's reputation destroyed. Why? It is pure GREED!
Our hobby offers lots of choices from model trains, power controls, accessories, and even smoke fluids. Hobbists are free to use whatever product they deem to work best in their systems. It is a personal thing and very subjective. We, at JT's Mega-Steam provide our services and products so that everyone can enjoy the hobby in whatever manner they choose. PERIOD.
If customers have questions or concerns, they can always contact us for explanations and help. That is our pledge to all of our customers, for without customers, we don't have a business...PERIOD!
Jeb & Nancy Kriigel,
JT's Mega-Steam "World's Finest Smoke Fluid!"
Well said Jeb!
I have be a Mega-Steam user and supporter since they first started. They are a first class company. And if you have an issue or concern, they are available to discuss it with you.
Hi Jeb and Nancy, I admire your entrepreneurship! I do have a question regarding MegaSteam: is it a conductor?
You mean a conductor of electricity?
Actually, I would like a list of ingredients like you get food products. I would like to know what I am breathing when I run it. I do like the Cedar Megasteam scent, by the way. I can only hope it's not any worse than vapor in a cedar paneled closet
RickM46 posted:Hi Jeb and Nancy, I admire your entrepreneurship! I do have a question regarding MegaSteam: is it a conductor?
Megasteam can answer for themselves but as I researched this issue a while back the answer is that smoke fluid generally for 3rail smoke units is NOT a conductor of electricity. And no one, including Lionel, has ever suggested it is. The residue can gum up things (including track surfaces and indeed the painted surfaces of rolling stock) but it doesn't cause electrical shorting.
There was some issue during the first months of the Big Boy engine where smoke fluid was blamed for ruining expensive circuit boards. I wonder why a soaked board couldn't just be washed clean of the smoke fluid oil and returned to service.
I use baby oil (AKA mineral oil) bought from my local pharmacy which I cut 50% by volume using a scented train smoke. I have been doing this since 2009 without any deleterious effects to the 30+ MTH steam engines on my railroad smoke units.
cjack posted:There was some issue during the first months of the Big Boy engine where smoke fluid was blamed for ruining expensive circuit boards. I wonder why a soaked board couldn't just be washed clean of the smoke fluid oil and returned to service.
The only reasonble explanation I can think of is expected results from temperature monitoring and modification of the circuit using that data wouldn't match the intended end result.
It is possible some logic circuit saw a natural ground by some dialectic effect or something I suppose. Layer saturation on top of it? Layer saturation creating ??? Capacitance charges beween layers?? etc.
CJACK,
As with most smoke fluids, Mega-Steam is non-conductive. Flooding locomotives with fluid will make a mess and possibly have some reaction with the sensitive electronics. Regarding the ingredients question: All of our ingredients are as pure as possible, quality controlled to avoid contamination, and are eco-earth friendly and non-flammable when used as directed. Mega-Steam started with 2 basic scents...Vanilla and Original Cedar. This idea was to create smoke fluid that would be pleasant to the home environment. Back then most of the fluid had a peculiar odor and was not pleasant to spouses and/or significant others. From that time forward we have worked meticulousy to create light pleasant scents that are indeed pleasing to most people. It is very subjective and personal. Each of our scents has its own proprietary formula that took several years to experiment with and develop. Unfortunately, we cannot provide those individual ingredients for obvious reasons.
As with all smoke fluids, visicosity (thickness) is another factor that needs to be mentioned. Our standard mid-range viscosity is such that our fluid is safe in all scales and all manufacturer's models. From a chemistry viewpoint, the thicker the viscosity, the slower vaporization and the more droplets will be thrown out on the track and buildings as the flashpoint is higher; the thinner the viscosity, the faster vaporization with occur and the flashpoint or ignition factor goes lower which could possibly ignite. It is important to us and our customers that our viscosity is safe. We will not sacrifice safety.
Above all, common sense is important no matter which smoke fluid is used. Following directions and not underfilling or overfilling are key factors when using smoke fluids. Care has to be taken to achieve the desired results. As mentioned earlier in this thread, smoke fluid is vaporized, not burned. No carbon is produced.
It is hoped that these notes will help answer the questions posed. Further questions and individual concerns can be posed directly to us.
Jeb
Is the ELIMINATOR a different product? Produced differently?
If it will eliminate bad smells, is it some sort of cleaning agent?
Thanks
Wow. Just wow. My friend said that this guy told him that another guy told him brand A doesn't gunk resistors, turns into implicit accusations that brand M causes gunk. No only with no facts, but without anybody even stepping up to actually make the assertion. This is pretty crappy.
I use both these brands and like them both, but I am not going to be scared away from megasteam by histrionics.
pennsy484 posted:Wow. Just wow. My friend said that this guy told him that another guy told him brand A doesn't gunk resistors, turns into implicit accusations that brand M causes gunk. No only with no facts, but without anybody even stepping up to actually make the assertion. This is pretty crappy.
Crappy indeed but it wasn’t just gossip/implicit accusations but an actual manufacturer comment. If their later model smoke units are not designed to use the most popular fluids so be it but earlier models and probably the vast majority of other smoke units out there demonstrably can. So I’m scared off brand M for what I know it works well with.
I was thinking that any fluid would produce a little coating after awhile and the eliminator would eliminate it. Sounds like a good thing...
This discussion could go on forever, since the original question was asking about the "BEST" smoke fluid.
Like most things, I guess, one's definition of "best" is based on one's own experiences...
Mark in Oregon
Hancock52 posted: Crappy indeed but it wasn’t just gossip/implicit accusations but an actual manufacturer comment.
Well, idk, was it? I don't see any comment here by Lionel. Nor do I even see a comment by any ex-employee of Lionel's. It's someone saying someone told them that an ex employee said Lionel brand doesn't cause gunk. That is not Lionel saying Megasteam causes gunk. That's all I am saying Seems crappy to be throwing a long time favorite maker under the bus based on flimsy conjecture. I am not entirely sure this whole thread isn't a bit of trolling with a seeming innocent but loaded question. Like I said I use bith, but there seems to be something mob like and unfair going on here. Opinion.
I think JT said it all. The viscosity probably has to do with if it leaves a little residue or not, but more importantly, the viscosity has to do with safe vaporization. If it is too thin, it can be less safe as to flame. So it's a call by the manufacturers for the range of their intended application. I would think it's better to stay on the safe side even though you may not have had any issues with a thinner product. And, the testimonials by respected repair guys and the general users is varied, but also satisfying in that it means that your choice of brand of smoke fluid is mostly up to you. For the brands mentioned here, I think that there is no bad choice. I personally like the Mega-Steam Cedar for some uses and the Premium Lionel for others or at other times.
cjack posted:I was thinking that any fluid would produce a little coating after awhile and the eliminator would eliminate it. Sounds like a good thing...
I like the smell of Eliminator too and sometimes use it just for the scent. However, I think it costs more than the regular smoke fluid?
pennsy484 posted:Hancock52 posted: Crappy indeed but it wasn’t just gossip/implicit accusations but an actual manufacturer comment.Well, idk, was it? I don't see any comment here by Lionel. Nor do I even see a comment by any ex-employee of Lionel's. It's someone saying someone told them that an ex employee said Lionel brand doesn't cause gunk. That is not Lionel saying Megasteam causes gunk. That's all I am saying Seems crappy to be throwing a long time favorite maker under the bus based on flimsy conjecture. I am not entirely sure this whole thread isn't a bit of trolling with a seeming innocent but loaded question. Like I said I use bith, but there seems to be something mob like and unfair going on here. Opinion.
Well put Jeff. I agree 100%.
O.K. Here it is folks,no trolling, no heresay, no rumor.
From the first page of this 1 year old thread: Smoke fluid issues
"You know, when I left the Big L I thought I would never have to revisit this topic! I guess not."
"Okay, here is what my experience has been. JT Mega Steam fluid leaves a tacky residue inside the smoke unit (and all parts the smoke fluid touches; stack, funnel, shell, etc). Te carrier fluid that JT uses leaves a tacky hydrocarbon deposit on the batting and all throughout the smoke system. Does it smoke well? Yes. Does it smoke long? In modern Lionel equipment my experience has been that prematurely wears on the system, causing more frequent repairs to the smoke system."
"For anyone wanting to perform this test themselves, it is very easy. Take an AA set (modern Legacy with a track IR LED) and put Lionel Premium Smoke Fluid in the powered A unit and JT in the non powered smoke unit (or vice versa). Then just let them run, you will see which unit degrades faster. Then, when you take them apart and compare the two units you will discover this tacky residue I referred to all the time. "
"When I was at Lionel we tested and built our products using Lionel Premium Smoke Fluid (which was the old unscented TAS smoke fluid). This fluid is not as heavy as the JT fluid and leaves no residue behind, sans the hydrocarbon on the batting (that dark brown/black "charring" that prevents fluid from making it to the element). If you remember all the videos I did, where I talk about a needle applicator bottle, that allows you to get the fluid down in the smoke unit (in the batting) and not all over the inside of the funnel/stack. Anywhere you have liquid fluid the smoke vapor likes to cling to, a clean stack will produce more smoke! "
"Anyway, that is where I am coming from. Never wanted to start a brand war, just wanted folks to be able to enjoy their trains, without having to get inside them. "
Thanks,
Mike
Thank you,
Mike Reagan
TW Trainworx
I have been using lamp oil in my LGB smoke units and have started using it in my Lionel smoke units. It works rather well, putting out a good amount of smoke. I have not had any ill effects using it in the LGB and USA Trains fan driven smoke units. I've been doing it for several years.
RickO posted:O.K. Here it is folks,no trolling, no heresay, no rumor.
Scroll down to the 24th post on the first page of this 1 year old thread: Smoke fluid issues
Thanks for pointing that out. The most recent thread on the smoke fluid controversy, which I think gave rise to the OP's question starting this thread, was actually on the VL Niagara and started in earnest here: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...gara-arriving?page=3
So no, no trolling. Read the first post in this thread. 
Whelp, not going to argue with Mike Reagan. That's a shame. I like the idea of the independent smoke guy. I hope this doesn't hurt him too much or we'll have just Lionel and MTH for smoke fluid too. 😔
I'll need to check for gunk.
I think folks will decide whether they want a warranty to cover their engine or use the smoke fluid of their choice. If this is Lionel's stance, although without it being explicitly written in any literature seems suspect to me to enforce, then folks may find it difficult to get warranty repair on a smoke related issue. That's going to have to be an individual choice.
As many of the forum's repair folks have reported they have had zero issues so that is certainly encouraging. And Jeb and his team stand behind their products as well.
For me personally I'll continue to use the Lionel Premium until my warranty runs out and possibly beyond. Perhaps making sure at minimal it is used in the AUX units where plastic tubing and narrow openings are the norm.
I would say this to Lionel, if that's your policy to deny warranty repair based on smoke fluid type then you need to make that part of the instruction manual. There is a difference in a recommendation to use your fluid and a requirement for warranty repair. If not for being a member of this forum I suspect many of us wouldn't have a clue until we needed a RMA.
Lionel smokes better so regardless, given what Mike R said why take a chance?
"Okay, here is what my experience has been. JT Mega Steam fluid leaves a tacky residue inside the smoke unit (and all parts the smoke fluid touches; stack, funnel, shell, etc). Te carrier fluid that JT uses leaves a tacky hydrocarbon deposit on the batting and all throughout the smoke system. Does it smoke well? Yes. Does it smoke long? In modern Lionel equipment my experience has been that prematurely wears on the system, causing more frequent repairs to the smoke system."
OK. Since Mega-Steam is specificallly mentioned in the older post, and referenced here again, it is appropriate that in all fairness, some questions should be posed:
1.) Which JT's Mega-Steam smoke fluid was used to draw these conclusions? Was a particular scent the culprit or just all Mega-Steam fluid in general? In our thorough testing, we have never found any of the above mentioned "tacky hydrocarbon deposits" or any signs of causing "premature wear on the system causing more frequent repairs to the smoke system." Those are pretty strong conclusions about our product and could certainly be interpreted as "bashing our product!"
2.) Why does it appear that JT's Mega-Steam smoke fluid is targeted? Were other manufacturer's brands tested as well, or was Mega-Steam just singled out for this testing? When a manufacturer's employee conducts a test on a competitor's product is there any question as to which product will be concluded as superior?
3.) The Ex-Lionel employee who is well known and respected by many in the hobby promotes and personally sells the Lionel Premium smoke fluid and benefits from the sale thereof. Does that have any baring on the above conclusions? What is the connection? Is there any conflict of interest? Why is it necessary to attack a competitor and bash his product?
We, at JT's Mega-Steam stand behind our product and our customers. We appreciate comments and suggestions from customers and competitors. We are transparent and we take pride in our honest approach to what we do. Yes, everyone can make their personal choice. Which smoke fluid is the best? It is totally up to the individual. All that we ask is that the information about any manufacturer or product be handled in an honest and fair manner.
Jeb & Nancy Kriigel
JT's Mega-Steam
Mega-Steam posted:Yes, everyone can make their personal choice. Which smoke fluid is the best? It is totally up to the individual.
Jeb & Nancy Kriigel
JT's Mega-Steam
...I think that's basically what I said in my previous post...it might be time to end this before it goes further...
What's the lyric to that song? "To Each His Own"...
Mark in Oregon
This sounds like a conspiracy to me. No offensive to anyone, but Jeb is right. Without knowing specifically what was given the issues messing things up, you really can't pin things down. The other issue which is something that could also be a problem, operator error maybe filling to much? Maybe something else could be a problem, both smoke fluids not mixing well causing the issue(if there is anything left of one when adding another). That's all I can think of after looking at this and the prior thread(last year or so) saying the same sort of thing.
Well if there is a positive side to all this information (from which one can make their intelligent choices), I have been reminded to reorder come Mega-Steam Original Cedar to set beside my reorder of Lionel Premium Smoke Fluid Unscented.
My last word(s):
1. Totally fair points raised by Jeb and Nancy. I know Megasteam works in engines I have had for years and I'll with stick with it for those, which are the majority of my little fleet.
2. I have serviced and researched later model Lionel smoke units and have reached the conclusion that the amount of features and different hardware Lionel has introduced into them make them a lot more finicky/susceptible to failure than older units. Plus Lionel Premium fluid definitely evaporates/dissipates in the container to an extent I have never seen with other products so its formulation must be pretty different. On testing it I have found it works with Lionel's later units (including the VL Niagara) so I will carry on using it for those.
Just wanted to know which smokes better.
Sigh . . . . .
I’ve found much more variation between the engines than in the smoke fluid. I think we’ve all seen really dense smoke vapor with different brands.
Scrapiron Scher posted:Just wanted to know which smokes better.
Sigh . . . . .
That's like asking what baseball team is best, what is better, steam or diesel? There is going to be so many different answers to the question. Best option, try whatever you like, take close friends/clubs points into consideration(especially for the warranty disclaimer that should be stated in big bold letter from you know who), and lastly, have fun running your engines whatever you decide to run.
Scrapiron Scher posted:Just wanted to know which smokes better.
Sigh . . . . .
This is a loaded question and most people who have been in the hobby don’t need to ask! If people want to believe Lionel and MTH smoke fluid works best in there own products so be it. That’s what they want you to believe! Why? Beacause they want you to buy there product and who ever works for them or have worked for them in the past is obligated to push the product they get there paycheck from!
Use what you want to use. There will be pleanty of more posts on how toys over $1000 dollars have to go back to the factory multiple times to get fixed for non smoke issues. Enjoy your trains.
Scrapiron Scher posted:Just wanted to know which smokes better.
Sigh . . . . .
I feel your frustration: perhaps if you had titled this thread with the word "better" instead of "best"...(?)
Mark in Oregon
I dont know why MTH/ protosmoke is never included. I think its good too!
That actually looks pretty good to me. I've seen much worse than that.
Train Nut posted:That actually looks pretty good to me. I've seen much worse than that.
I agree. It's obviously used but not scorched in the way MTH rope wicking gets because it is threaded up between the twin resistors in their smoke units. In that kind of arrangement it probably does not matter what smoke fluid you use, the wicking will need replacement on a regular basis.
jim sutter posted:I have always felt that the original American Flyer cedar scent was the best.
I do too and back in there day American Flyer had the best smoke units.
I ordered 2 bottles of the Lionel premium pine scent smoke and it really does make the Lionel locomotives smoke 100% better. The pine does smell ok also. I will do like some others posted and use Lionel in my Lionel and MTH in my MTH locomotives.
Even though our train "smoke" is a vapor, and not true smoke, it is mostly a suspension of lipid particles (mineral oil) in a vapor and any solvents, such as petroleum distillates, used to formulate the product, also vaporize as well. Inhaling strong concentrations of such vapor in an unventilated room over a period of time could have some deleterious effects on the lungs, especially on seniors with COPD, emphysema or other forms of pulmonary insufficiency. Might be something to consider!
Tinplate Art posted:Even though our train "smoke" is a vapor, and not true smoke, it is mostly a suspension of lipid particles (mineral oil) in a vapor and any solvents, such as petroleum distillates, used to formulate the product, also vaporize as well. Inhaling strong concentrations of such vapor in an unventilated room over a period of time could have some deleterious effects on the lungs, especially on seniors with COPD, emphysema or other forms of pulmonary insufficiency. Might be something to consider!
They usually bring thier own air 
(just kidding...but not)
Finally, a tempered comment against smoke I can easily like and agree with 
That's why off switches were invented.... company.
I still say the drive over did as much or more harm, and occasional train smoke is a highly unlikely source for contracting these issues, but I know where the off switch is too
Another point though. When my physical ability ability prevents others from enjoying life normally (and it does) I bow out gracefully or don't stay long And when young, it would have meant you got rid of Felix and Spot long before the smoke... even real smoke. Otherwise I was only good for about ten minutes tops. Too this day, cologne in public makes me flee because I "nose better" . No issues with train smoke though...though I'm sure now one of the "stink pretty" scents will get me back for this post 
Adriatic posted:Tinplate Art posted:Even though our train "smoke" is a vapor, and not true smoke, it is mostly a suspension of lipid particles (mineral oil) in a vapor and any solvents, such as petroleum distillates, used to formulate the product, also vaporize as well. Inhaling strong concentrations of such vapor in an unventilated room over a period of time could have some deleterious effects on the lungs, especially on seniors with COPD, emphysema or other forms of pulmonary insufficiency. Might be something to consider!
They usually bring thier own air
Finally, a tempered comment against smoke I can easily like and agree with
That's why off switches were invented.... company.
I still say the drive over did as much or more harm, and occasional train smoke is a highly unlikely source for contracting these issues, but I know where the off switch is too
Another point though. When my physical ability ability prevents others from enjoying life normally (and it does) I bow out gracefully or don't stay long
On my MTH engines I keep the smoke on low which is more than Lionel locomotives put out. I did install a bathroom exhaust fan in the train room which does pull the smoke out. I quit smoking 10 years ago and that probably did more harm than train smoke.
whats mikes website i thought he left lionel
As I started running a Lionel S3, I thought I would try the Lionel Premium smoke fluid (I have run Megasteam for years with no issues).
This is completely non-scientific...
The only locomotive so far, that I have gotten better smoke volume with the Lionel Premium is the S3-it smokes noticeably better and for a slightly longer period of time vs. Megasteam.
On post-war pellet type smoke units, I get more smoke volume from Megasteam.
On the old Lionel 3751 (with the smoke unit modified by removing the fiberglass sleeve and using MTH batting) I get better smoke volume with Megasteam.
I still have to test the Lionel on MTH locomotives-I will post again after I have done so.
Again, this is non-scientific and the smoke volume is gauged by simply observing the train in operation over a period of a couple of weeks with frequent operation.
Mth smoke units are only ones I use jt in cause the mth units can handle anything, lionel units, I use lionel smoke cause they're more finiky
Dmaxdeere87 posted:Mth smoke units are only ones I use jt in cause the mth units can handle anything, lionel units, I use lionel smoke cause they're more finiky
This is what I do too.
My experience (this month) with MegaSteam
After my train hobby fell dormant for a bunch of years, for various reasons, this Christmas season I got out my trains and set up a Christmas tree oval. I can’t dignify it by calling it a layout as it’s only a rectangular oval with a couple of figures scattered about, but it gets the job done.
I did not have any smoke fluid, so I began shopping. (Previously, I was using MTH ProtoSmoke, but it got lost in the shuffle somewhere.)
Mega-Smoke came highly recommended, but after I ordered a couple of bottles I had an issue. I purchased Pine and Smoke Pellet, and away I went, ……. that was until I tried the product. I started with the Pine scented fluid, and never got to even try the Smoke Pellet. The Pine fluid has no discernable “Pine” scent, but instead smells like something all its own. I thought maybe it would take a few refill cycles of running the train till it no longer smokes and then refilling, to flush out any remnants of the previous fluid. I ran no less than 4-5 cycles with no joy, so I called the folks at MegaSteam.
This is when it really got frustrating.
I asked if it might be possible that I got a bad batch of fluid as there was no pine scent at all, and what could be done. Immediately, (and quite defensively) I was told it’s not possible that there could be a bad batch of fluid, because everything is tested. I was then told that by running repeated cycles of refilling the smoke unit that should do it. I mentioned that I had already run 4-5 cycles before calling, so now the fellow I spoke to asked if the bottle of fluid smelled like pine. I checked, and it just barely does, so I said yes, but it’s quite weak. He said that’s as it should be and then immediately recommended their “Eliminator” product as the answer.
What got me upset was actually a few things.
New Product: Eliminator
This whole situation infuriated me, mostly because of the matter-of-fact attitude I faced when I called. My call was an opportunity for the folks at MegaSteam to correct a situation for an unhappy customer, and earn his/her loyalty.
My smoke unit didn’t have a “Bad” smell, it just didn’t have a pine scent, which is what I paid for and, why I bought the MegaSteam product in the first place.
At this point I’m not sure I’ll ever do business with them again, nor can I recommend them or their products.
What I think would be a smart business solution, is to package “Eliminator” in a small blister pack (something like what is pictured below, which would be enough to “flush” one or two smoke units for a scent changeover).
Additionally, a statement at the smoke fluid main selection page something like this is appropriate, that is if a company really cares about their customers and repurchase loyalty:
Note: Regardless of the smoke fluid type/brand/scent used, when changing from one to another, especially in the case of scented fluids, the need to clean all remnants of the previous fluid is necessary in order for the currently desired scent to work as desired. Left over constituents from a previous fluid can cause various odors which may not reflect the desired outcome of changing to a different fluid/scent, and may in fact be objectionable.
We have developed XYZ product specifically for the purposes of cleaning smoke units of the undesirable constituents which adversely affect the ability to obtain the scent you desire. Failure to properly clean your smoke unit(s) in this fashion may cause you to be unhappy with the scent produced by any given fluid, leading you to believe it is the fault of the fluid itself, when it is not. Our cleaner neutralizes the undesirable scents, allowing the new fluid to produce the scent you paid for and desire.
Some claim that multiple fill cycles with the new fluid will eventually flush out the smoke unit to the point where it will produce the desired scent of the new fluid, and while that may work, it is wasteful and during the multi-cycle changeover process, may produce objectionable scents. Our XYZ product solves that problem, and is a more economical approach. (end of text)
So, to sum things up, had the MegaSteam folks said something like this: Hey we’re sorry you are having this problem, but here is what we think may be a workable solution. We have this product called XYZ. It is specifically designed for situations like this. We have it listed on our web site, and it normally comes in X ounce bottles, for $X.XX. What we can do is send you out a free sample pack which should have enough XYZ product to clean and change over one or two typical smoke units. Once you give it a try I’m sure you’ll want more, so I’ll include a coupon with your sample pack for $1.00 off your subsequent purchase of ZYZ product. Does that sound fair?
As a customer, that’s what I’d expect from a company that cares, and quite honestly if that was done, I’d be a customer for life and there would be no question who I’d recommend whenever the subject comes up. Right now, instead, this is the story I tell, and forums like this are a great place to do it.
Regards,
GT
Good grief...
Mark in Oregon
Possible cause here, I have my layout outdoors in a temporary location this year. The heater I have doesn't regulate the temp properly and one morning I noticed it was 30 degrees, ouch. Anyways, I had 4 bottles of smoke on the shelf, two from JT and 2 from MTH. BOTH the JT bottles froze to a gel like substance, MTH was still in liquid form. I mostly use the JT at the moment and can voice for a lack of smell. Perhaps its because the product has been stored below freeze temps, as in my case. Just an observation...
@Mega-Steam posted:......As with all smoke fluids, viscosity (thickness) is another factor that needs to be mentioned. Our standard mid-range viscosity is such that our fluid is safe in all scales and all manufacturer's models. From a chemistry viewpoint, the thicker the viscosity, the slower vaporization and the more droplets will be thrown out on the track and buildings as the flashpoint is higher; the thinner the viscosity, the faster vaporization with occur and the flashpoint or ignition factor goes lower which could possibly ignite. It is important to us and our customers that our viscosity is safe. We will not sacrifice safety.
I have been running a number of my locos which have not had a lot of recent use and was worried about getting the smoke units in shape. In this process, I have been performing due diligence by adding the 40 + (up to 120 per laidoffsick?) drops to get the batting soaked. As many can verify, it can be a PITA to get rid of bubbles, clogs, etc. and get the fluid into the smoke unit batting. In the famous Mike Regan Lionel video (start at about 9 minutes), he calls this issue the film or meniscus effect. In further researching this issue, I looked over this thread and I read this quote above from Mega steam referencing an unappreciated characteristic of smoke fluids- viscosity. This has to also be a big factor on the issues Mike R. notes and related to my recent experience. If the fluid does not get to the reservoir, there is not much debate about which fluid smokes or lasts longer.
As I was running my locos and getting the smoke units primed, I thought I noticed differences in the fluids I used and Mega- steam seemed to reduce this filming or meniscus effect. At the risk of starting another fire storm, I thought a simple experiment was worth documenting for our collective consideration on the erudite topic of smoke fluid. There are a ton of details not covered in my simple test so don't beat me up for those details which I could not measure. Plus, there is another motivation, I have not won the Nobel prize yet so this might make the difference.
The bottom line is I was curious if what I was observing on simply getting fluid into the smoke unit was related to viscosity. Since I have no way to measure that at home, I cooked up a simple experiment to test the ability of the fluid to flow and to penetrate the batting. I had on hand Lionel, MTH, Mega, P&P, and also figured I would try some mineral oil too since it was around the house.
Basically, I used a Lionel plastic pipette and put one drop of fluid on a standard piece of 20 lb. copy paper (kudos to the video by laid off sick where he does something similar). I observed how the fluid migrated and how long it took to be absorbed into the paper. Here are some pictures.
This is within the first minute, you can see that Mega and mineral oil are penetrating the paper quickly.
Here is a close up after five minutes. You can see the pooling of the fluid. Mega is totally absorbed and mineral oil is very close. Lionel, P&P, and MTH still have a liquid drop visible
45 minutes later, Lionel and MTH still had a slight fluid dot that had not been absorbed. Here is the final picture of the paper penetration, held up in the light without the white table background so the size of the drop dispersion is clear.
Assuming this simple test has some relationship to viscosity, there are obvious differences in these smoke fluid products. Mega and mineral oil have similar characteristics as far as being absorbed into paper and dissipating widely. Could this explain why I thought I did not see as much of the filming or meniscus effect with Mega? Lionel, P&P, and MTH are also very similar in that they appear to be thicker and are slower to dissipate and be absorbed into paper. Lionel took the longest time (almost 45 minutes) for the drop not to be visible on top of the paper. Of course, higher viscosity may relate to the longer smoke puffing some have noted (assuming you can get the stuff into the smoke unit) but that is beyond my pay grade.
Where does this all lead? For my two cents, here is the hypothesis: if you are trying to wet a smoke unit and there is only indirect access to the batting, lower viscosity smoke fluid is your friend. Of the ones I tested, Mega steam appeared to work better (or mineral oil) to get the fluid to the batting and avoid filming for locos with complex smoke systems. Use what you want or like after that. As the expression goes, YMMV.
Interesting test.
Hokie, Your the Man!!!!!!!!!! Love reading your posts!!! This was a very interesting test and I am sure is providing many others with some different ways of looking at smoke fluid.
You have definitely helped me!!!
All the best to you my friend and hopefully see you in October!!
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