I understand that this may not be possible, but after having to clean up an overflowed unit, I think it is worth asking. I want to replace the lionel units with mth ones. Thanks.
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What engine, smoke unit, etc.
Did you watch the Lionel video on rebuilding the earlier Lionel units? If it pertains to your vintage, I did one or two and the results are dramatic.
The Legacy smoke units are nothing like the previous tmcc units. I would not try to change out the unit.
Rod Miller
No reason to replace that smoke unit, just clean it up. They can smoke just as much as the MTH units. Just make sure there is a rope style wick in it, and not the pre-cut junk.
I agree that sticking with the Lionel is probably the way to go. Having said that, I'm not going to agree that Lionel units smoke as much as MTH units. They might be made to do so, but they do no such thing if left as they were originally delivered. Further, the MTH units puff with a more prototypical staccato cadence. Gunrunnerjohn once explained why on this forum. I also don't think either company puts out junk units.
PJB posted:They might be made to do so, but they do no such thing if left as they were originally delivered.
I'll put one of my new Legacy GS4s up against any MTH steam engine/smoke unit any day. With the rope style wick that they (Lionel) seem to have gone back to, they are just as good. 
I agree with the many opinions that you should stick with what you got. Properly tuned up, the Legacy smoke unit will do a fine job. I won't say that you can't get more smoke out of the MTH smoke unit under optimum conditions, but the expense of changing it wouldn't be worth it. Also, you'd have to sacrifice some of the things that make the MTH smoke units so effective to jam it into a Lionel environment.
I use MTH smoke units in my upgrades, but I don't replace fan driven smoke in Lionel with them, just the old mechanical smoke units.
Laidoffsick posted:PJB posted:They might be made to do so, but they do no such thing if left as they were originally delivered.I'll put one of my new Legacy GS4s up against any MTH steam engine/smoke unit any day. With the rope style wick that they (Lionel) seem to have gone back to, they are just as good.
I was speaking generally - not about the aberration. Again, not just talking about smoke output, although MTH output is prodigious. Also talking about the staccato (more realistic) cadence. Anyway, can you advise if the rope wick will make the difference you're saying in every recent Legacy and Vision locomotives? And, I mean for all smoke units in each locomotive, including whistle and blowdown. I own VLBBs, VL Challenger, Empire State Express, N&W J, VL Hudson, latest FEF, etc.) and not one compares to my worst MTH steamer - but I'd really like them to. Thanks.
The staccato smoke output is done using a patented technique with the MTH product line, they dynamically brake the smoke motor electronically to better define each chuff. I actually use the same technique with my TMCC add-on product, the Super Chuffer. I pay MTH a royalty for each unit to use that feature. This is probably what you're looking for. Both of these upgrades use the Super-Chuffer.
Yes PJB, switching from the pre-cut wick to the rope style wick is night and day difference. Especially once you saturate that wick.
I've done my VL BB, S-3, Cab Forward, FEF, and the rope style wick turned them all into super smokers with no other changes. I opened up my two new GS4s to fix the cab vents, and do the smoke units but Lionel had already put the rope style wick in them. Hopefully that change is permanent and they don't screw that up again.
So is the patent for a dynamic brake (which is nothing new in itself) being used on a toy train smoke unit?
gunrunnerjohn posted:The staccato smoke output is done using a patented technique with the MTH product line, they dynamically brake the smoke motor electronically to better define each chuff. I actually use the same technique with my TMCC add-on product, the Super Chuffer. I pay MTH a royalty for each unit to use that feature. This is probably what you're looking for. Both of these upgrades use the Super-Chuffer.
GRJ - thanks for commenting. I had forgotten the specifics.
By the way, what's up with that last passenger car and it's flickering lights? Didn't someone on this forum come up with a flicker free fix for this? >p
Peter
- I have several legacy engines that smoke as good as mth and don't have failures. To be honest they where tuned with rope wick and correct element placement .
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Videos (1)
Yep, as good, but never better. MTH not only controls the fan motor with a processor they control the heating element. A large steam engine will boost the element as it starts its first movement so the chuff creates a large puff. Secondly the dual heating element in a confined space is a better source of heat, than a single element all other aspect equal. For the latest Legacy versus MTH they both work at 8 ohms effective.
Frankly you really need to be more specific, because plenty of early Legacy (Modular) used ACREG and went through a whole series of different type smoke boards. The newer RCMC boards also seem to have some issues with failing components and cooked smoke units.
Certainly Lionel made improvements, but for the longest time they relied on mechanical cherry switches for puff, and alternate devices to get any sort of smoke control. They also still have an Achilles heal of trying to split conventional versus command operation. MTH work just as good in conventional as they do in command mode.
You certainly could add a MTH unit to any of the Lionel units that use a 6 or 8 ohm resistor, if they can fit. It may actually smoke better because of the dual element pinched wick. But the circuit control is still the main factor controlling smoke output. So changing the smoke unit doesn't change the Lionel board. G
cjack posted:So is the patent for a dynamic break (which is nothing new in itself) being used on a toy train smoke unit?
Yep.
Sante Fe 3751 If you are talking about the older Lionel smoke units with a 27 ohm smoke resistor - I changed the 27 ohm to a 24 ohm [ use a 25 ohm 3 wall wire wound ceramic resistor instead] This will give you plenty of smoke. I also use pink fiberglass insulation for batting - packed to the bottom of the air notch from the fan side of the smoke unit. Bruce
Those two locomotives certainly smoke great in your videos John...
I say go for it if you think they're junk.
c.sam posted:Those two locomotives certainly smoke great in your videos John...
Thanks. 
I couldn't call it a "Super-Chuffer" if I didn't get good smoke in the demo! 
gunrunnerjohn posted:cjack posted:So is the patent for a dynamic break (which is nothing new in itself) being used on a toy train smoke unit?
Yep.
I do think the patent also includes the integrated microprocessor control of smoke. Not just dynamic braking. Lionel can still use mechanical braking, and I believe they slipped a few electronic puffing smoke units in the mix. It is hard to keep track of all the methods used for Lionel smoke, not only smoke unit PCB but the trigger effect also via DCDS wiring and independent smoke boards. G
Well, the patent covers a whole bunch of stuff, it's basically the whole DCS patent.
Control, sound, and operating system for model trains US 6655640 B2
In part it says...
Yet another feature of the present invention is a smoke unit circuit design that allows smoke (or steam) output to be controlled by the user. In this way, smoke and steam output from the model train can be synchronized to match the operating condition of the train. For example, as the train picks up speed, the amount of smoke or steam output would increase accordingly. Or, if the load on the train increases, a larger amount of smoke will be outputted indicative of the additional power required to move the train. In addition, the smoke puffs let out by the train can be synchronized with the rotation of the wheels and thereby reflect train speed. For example, the smoke unit circuit can be controlled so that each ¼ rotation of the train wheels will result in one smoke “puff”. Also, the smoke unit circuit can be controlled to “stream” smoke continuously, even at zero velocity, as do real-life steamer-type trains. Even further, the volume of smoke output can be automatic in relation to train conditions, or it can be manually controlled by the user.
--- snip ---
Another novel feature of the present invention is the fast response time of the smoke system driver circuit. The smoke system driver circuit of the present invention uses an electronic brake (not shown) located in the fan motor drive circuit to quickly stop or start blowing the smoke out of the smoke unit. In particular, the electronic brake is a FET (not shown) that is placed across the fan motor that will short out the motor when the user commands the smoke unit to stop blowing smoke.
Right, but we were talking smoke, not the whole package. What I said is in the first paragraph. Smoke output controlled based on operating conditions. G
Let me just clarify this blunt thread. Item in question: Lionel 6-28587 PRR GP7. Problems: Low Smoke + overfillage (fixed the overfillage.) This is the second engine that has had low smoke + overfillage. I think I should try modifying the smoke unit for better production, but how can I combat the "overfillage" issue? Thanks.
P.S. Where is the Lionel "smoke unit upgrade video." I searched, but could not find it.
It will be somewhat of a PITA to replace the smoke unit, both mechanically and electrically. That smoke unit can be made to work quite well, and overfilling is a problem with an MTH smoke unit as well as Lionel.
Since that model uses a smoke voltage regulator, you may be having problem with that frequently troublesome component and not actually with the smoke unit itself, something to consider.
To fill the GP7s, I remove the hatch above the smoke unit that has the "funnel". I pull the funnel off the unit and put the smoke fluid directly into the unit. No overfilling and no smoke fluid blocking the "funnel" path. Since doing it this way my GP7s have been smoking nicely.
Not sure if that's your issue but I thought I'd put it out there.
John, forgive me for my lack of knowledge, but what and where is a smoke unit voltage regulator?
MartyE, I will see if that helps. Thanks.
The unregulated Lionel fan driven smoke units typically have a 27 ohm resistor. The TMCC & Legacy smoke units with the regulator typically have either 6 ohm or 8 ohm resistors and a small module that controls the smoke volume.
The regulator has three smoke levels, low, medium, and high. For Legacy, the interface is simple, just keep pressing the smoke-on or smoke-off buttons. For the TMCC regulators, the selection is a little more complex! 
AUX1, AUX2, 9 H, then AUX2 again to save the setting. This sets the smoke volume to high. Substitute M or L for medium or low smoke in the previous key sequence. The L,M,H, buttons are the momentum buttons under the cover of the CAB1 or CAB1L, they also select smoke volume in conjunction with the above key sequence.
Ok, I removed the shell and popped open the smoke unit. A tiny bit of burnt wick, but not a lot. So I saturated the wick, and ran the engine with no shell. Very litttle smoke. I think john hit he nail on the head. Should I order a regulator from Lionel or somewhere else? Thanks.
You need to check and observe some functions, First this unit may only smoke well in command with higher voltages on track. Did you turn smoke on, have you set to high, have you pressed and held 9 to boost smoke to heat up. Is the fan turning? Do you have voltage present at the element and fan. G
See my previous post, you need to use the TMCC "raindance" to turn the regulator to high. As George says, it'll work best with 18 volts on the track. At lower voltages, TMCC smoke frequently doesn't work all that well. The regulator is "supposed" to correct for that. Boost doesn't do anything with the regulator, at least not for me.
Update: I did as GGG suggested and, after about 20min of waiting, there was smoke
. (Angels singing Hallelujah.) I have no idea what it was, but the smoke has been working fine now for a few days. Thanks all.
