Change the days for the York meet.

We don't want the public. We want members. Come on Scott. leave the meet just the way it is. Maybe all day Thursday.

@eddie g posted:

We don't want the public. We want members. Come on Scott. leave the meet just the way it is. Maybe all day Thursday.

Seriously - you really don’t want the public? How do you expect the TCA to grow, or even to continue? TCA is obviously withering, like the whole hobby. Very short sighted outlook.

ED has floated a few ideas about this. One being Thursday Friday, members only. Saturday Sunday anyone allowed in the Dealer halls. The decision is largely based on Eastern Division/TCA members not having to collect sales tax in the member halls.

Basically one TCA show followed by a second show with a different sponsor with separate agreement with the state.

Pete

Thursday was very light.  Friday was better.

I'm encouraged to hear that the EDTCA is considering options to make the meet better.

One must be prepared to make sacrifices for one's hobbies and extra-curricular activities.  For 37 years, in periods of self-employment, no employment, being laid-off, being retired, and Workin' for the Man, I have scheduled time off to attend the ED meet, because it's important to me.

If you can't figure out how to get one day off, twice a year, you need to re-evaluate your priorities, or switch to stamp collecting.  It's worked fine since 1955. Let's not try to find a solution to a non-problem.

And, I concur that we don't want the general public attending. We want members. And we need to go back to the two-signature rule, for security reasons.

I don't know. There are a lot of variables to this. I definitely feel that adding Sunday is a mistake. A 4 day event? I think 3 days is more than enough. I wholeheartedly want to the public to show up but of course I would prefer folks to join up and be members. I hope that by attending as public person they do eventually join up. However, it seems to me that ever since the public was allowed to enter the dealers halls not that many have showed up. I am just judging this by how many I have seen at York. Maybe there is more than I think but without real stats I don't know. It seems to me some people want York to be more like a Greenberg show. If so (and if the public starts showing up) than possibly extend the hours on Saturday? And add more things for families to see and do like Amhurst has. But after all is said and done this is a decision for the folks that are at a higher pay grade than me. Whatever happens I will continue to attend when I can.

"If you can't figure out how to get one day off, twice a year, you need to re-evaluate your priorities, or switch to stamp collecting.  It's worked fine since 1955. Let's not try to find a solution to a non-problem."

I very much agree with the above statement. Even when I had very little seniority at my job I was always able to get that Friday off when I could attend the meet. I live 3 hours away and I did it in a day trip so I guess for folks that live in further away it might be harder to get more days off but getting the one day off was never a problem for me. Attending the meet was always important to me although I did not attend every one but I tried to make one meet per year.

****Edit**** Just re-read Scott's initial post where he said to drop Thursday. I still think adding Sunday is a mistake. I go to car shows and even the car shows that are thriving are dead or at least very slow on Sunday.

@eddie g posted:

We don't want the public. We want members.

The haut monde !?!?...

Here we are!!!...

@Arthur P. Bloom posted: MY EDIT

If you can't figure out how to get one day off, twice a year, you need to re-evaluate your priorities, or switch to stamp collecting.  It's worked fine since 1955. Let's not try to find a solution to a non-problem.

For most of the world, excepting our first responders, Saturday and Sunday represent time off. In order allow the TCA to be more fully exposed to the general public, weekends just work better. Expecting some member of the public, with an interest in model railroading, at the edge of the hobby, to devote a weekday off, possibly using a paid vacation day or paid holiday, to attend this meet, is, unrealistic. Competing priorities come into focus.

@Arthur P. Bloom posted:

And, I concur that we don't want the general public attending. We want members. And we need to go back to the two-signature rule, for security reasons.

Arthur,

1.) You clearly have no problem with this wonderful thing we have dying.  How are we to get new members, to the hobby and then to the meet?

2.) What is this security problem you speak of?

Mike

Sorry, but I agree with Scott Smith.  The TCA and the Eastern Division DO need the public.  You're not going to get new members by hiding your light under a bushel.  It's 2023, not 1955.

Maybe the answer is to go to 2 FULL days or 2.5 days - Friday, Saturday, and Sunday morning.  Keep the division between the dealer & member halls to keep the taxman away.  Maybe make Saturday night the social event?  Maybe a buffet dinner and an auction for big ticket items on Saturday night?  I seem to recall that auctions were once part of the Eastern Division's program.  And the Keystone Division held auctions at its Lancaster Home & Garden meets in the early 2000's.

George

@Arthur P. Bloom posted:

One must be prepared to make sacrifices for one's hobbies and extra-curricular activities.  For 37 years, in periods of self-employment, no employment, being laid-off, being retired, and Workin' for the Man, I have scheduled time off to attend the ED meet, because it's important to me.

If you can't figure out how to get one day off, twice a year, you need to re-evaluate your priorities, or switch to stamp collecting.  It's worked fine since 1955. Let's not try to find a solution to a non-problem.

And, I concur that we don't want the general public attending. We want members. And we need to go back to the two-signature rule, for security reasons.

Respectfully, it's not 1955.

At 46 yrs old I am young for a tca member.  No, I can't always afford to take vacation days, employment in the power generation industry does not allow for that to happen.  There is little spare cash to go around due to literally everything costing more than it did just two years ago, so even the thought of going to York or any train show to buy something is given careful consideration as lots of other things need paid for before more toys.

it is often lamented that the fanbase of this hobby is dying out faster than it is being replaced.  There will not be a members only show for future generation if there are not enough members left to around to support it.  Just like a business, you have to keep generating new customers if you want to survive.

I agree with Scott.  And it’s not just days off from work that is the issue.  If we want to attract young modelers, we need Saturday to deconflict with school too.   I see no down side for our hobby to making the event as accessible as possible

I have been a TCA member since 2002. That is the year I started my business. Prior to that taking vacation time to go was not going to happen. My wife would have argued that spending valuable vacation time to 'go play train' would be selfish. Surprisingly I would agreement with her on this. Many companies require that vacation time has to be taken in one week increments. Many of our fellow TCA members are retired and have forgotten how it is in the real world.

Scott Smith

@scott.smith posted:

Many of our fellow TCA members are retired and have forgotten how it is in the real world.

We live in the real world too Scott, just not your world!   I see your point, and it's certainly a valid one.  It could be made into a weekend meet, Sat/Sun...

Back when the York Meet was open on just Friday and Saturday there were large crowds attending. When the Eastern Division added Thursday to put a hurting on the bandit meets the attendance was similar, just spread out over the three days. Even before Thursday was added, Saturday attendance was low.

Like Scott, I thought moving to Friday-Saturday or Sunday would draw more attendees. But there are issues with this. The TCA Eastern Division doesn’t run the world. They don’t operate in a vacuum.

One of the reasons that the Meet ends early on Saturday is because usually there is another event scheduled at the fairgrounds that evening and the buildings have to emptied in time for that event.  The ED books the fairgrounds for the entire week of the Meet. I don’t know if they can negotiate the extra Sunday for an acceptable cost.

Also, the vendors want to get on the road after the show. It has been discussed on this forum that the vendors and hobby shops that attend were strongly against staying on Sunday as they wanted to have the time to get back to their shop in time to open on Monday.

One issue I see is lack of advertising of the Meet. I noticed there was no banner advertising the Meet on the Hyland Ave. fence near the entrance like there was in previous years. Even that is not enough because the York, Pa. area is not large enough to attract the crowds they need, especially just a banner on a fence.  It’s probably not in their budget but more advertising is needed in a broader area. Right now it’s just word of mouth. That’s how I discovered the TCA.

These days all hobbies are experiencing downward membership and attendance as prices and inflation increase. These factors affect all of the TCA too. There is no one size fits all fix. Everyone has their own agenda and things they want to see happen. It has been suggested before that if you want things to change, run for office in the TCA or Eastern Division and be the change you want to see. The hobby and the TCA are not dying. As long as there are a few members, the TCA will still operate as intended. So if you want to see more crowds, all of us need to get up out of our chairs and spread the word about this great event and hobby!!

Why are we even discussing this topic?  We have no input as to when the meet is.  Go join the ED TCA and attend the meetings to make your opinions known.

Did anyone ever think that maybe all the volunteers of the ED TCA want Sunday off to recover as a day of rest?

As of last week the TCA had 312 new members YTD.  They have bigger concerns than pressuring the ED TCA to change the structure of the York meet.

-Greg

October 1st is the start of my busiest time of the year at work, so attending the fall meet is no longer an option for me. I am in a very seasonal business and taking time off between Oct. 1 and Dec. 7 would be foolish.  Only the spring meet is a possibility anymore.  Instead of the 3rd weekend in October, I want EDTCA to change the fall meet to be the 3rd weekend in September so I can go.

Ok.........enough sarcasm, but the point I'm trying to make here is that no matter what days the meet is held, EDTCA is never going to please everyone. The meet is twice a year. When I was a kid, my Dad used to take me out of school for a day to go to York, starting in 4th grade and right through high school. Yes, I missed some classes and extracurricular activities, but it all worked out. One day out of school every 6 months is probably not going to ruin a kid's academic future. As for time off of work, York was just about the only train meet my Dad could attend all year; he was a minister, and back then, most meets were on Sundays. He wasn't happy about it but accepted it for what it was. On the rare occasion that he had a Sunday off that coincided with a train meet within a reasonable drive, he was there.

There are logistics involved that we most likely don't know about, such as rental rates for the fairgrounds and fees for security guards, that may make the meet cost prohibitive if it is held over Saturday and Sunday.

Do we know how many new members the TCA has acquired as a result of public dealer halls?  Yes, York is a big event, but relying on it to grow membership is foolish in my opinion. Each one of us needs to promote TCA membership if it is to grow. There is more to membership than just going to York once or twice a year. Removing the "two signature" rule has, in my opinion, diminished the value of membership. Many other organizations have a vetting process for prospective members, and I see nothing wrong with that. Now that anyone can join, the TCA has become, like so many aspects of modern life, disposable, because anyone can join at any time.

Remember quite a few vendors/sellers travel back home Saturday afternoon and all day Sunday. One thing I would like to know is, how many members are buying registrations and how many people off the street coming in? Dave

I'll be there no matter which days it is BUT as @BlueComet400 and others have pointed out I suspect there is more to it than just changing the calendar.  I'm really not sure a day change will matter much.  I do think better advertising would help but I also don't know if it's the total solution.  Unfortunately I think the "public" are limited to the immediate areas around York, no more than an hour away.  Much further and I suspect the draw drops significantly. 

We can post to our hearts desire but ultimately it's up to the EDTCA and it's members to make any changes.  We can certainly discuss it and maybe they'll consider some of the points but again we have very little say in the matter.  So what can we do?  Promote the hobby.  I do believe the younger YouTube guys do a great job of promoting the hobby.  I also believe that Eddie is incorrect in saying they don't want the public.  If you gain some members from the public pool what harm does it do?  It's only helps. 

Again I'll go any day they make it but I do reserve vacation for York so it doesn't matter to me.  Your mileage may vary.  And again unless the EDTCA wants and are able to make any changes then we should ALL do our part to promote the hobby and the meet.  I do believe there is a lot more to it to make these changes that the EDTCA has no control over.  As someone stated "you can't please everyone".

Now I'll sit back and watch.  I believe this topic has been brought up and there were specific reasons for the days the meet is held.

@eddie g posted:

We don't want the public. We want members. Come on Scott. leave the meet just the way it is. Maybe all day Thursday.

What a crazy thing to say. At least you didn't insert any of your "facts" into the statement.

@Hudson J1e posted:

However, it seems to me that ever since the public was allowed to enter the dealers halls not that many have showed up. I am just judging this by how many I have seen at York. Maybe there is more than I think but without real stats I don't know.

Clem's Primer posted some of the (unofficial) stats regarding "the public" attendance over the years:

• Apr. 2017:  Abt. 600  (this was the first time "the public" was allowed into the dealer halls)
• Oct. 2017:  Abt. 400
• Apr. 2018:  389
• Oct. 2018:  418
• Apr. 2019:  332

This is about the attendance of a small one day fire hall show.  I wonder how many of them eventually joined, how many were just looking for something to entertain themselves, and how many were there to take advantage of the meet without being a TCA member?

I don't think opening up the whole meet to "the public" would do anything other than kill the meet or turn it into another small regional TCA meet that people more than an hour or two away wouldn't bother attending.  And how many people would drop their TCA memberships in a hot minute if they could "get the milk for free without buying the cow?"  I have talked about this subject with many table holders in the member halls since I joined their ranks, and the vast majority I talked with would stop coming if the member halls were opened to "the public."

For years, Greenberg held 2-day weekend train shows in what we refer to as Orange Hall (I don't know if they still do or not), yet from what I have heard from my train friends in the area, they only occupied half the hall.  Why didn't those shows get bigger?  Why didn't more dealers and manufacturers/importers come?  Why didn't more non-professional dealers come?  The Greenberg people I have known over the years have been pretty dedicated people who knew what they were doing, so it wasn't a matter of competence.  York grew because of the TCA as a whole, both the EDTCA people who do so much work to make York happen, and the TCA members who support the organization and the meet.  Yeah, I wish I didn't have to use so many vacation days to go to York, but I consider that, as well as my TCA dues, and the fees I pay to get into York a small price to pay for the fun I have there, and the friends I have made there.

Andy

ARTHUR, You are 100% correct.

MAGGI, I don't believe you are even a TCA member.

York is fine. You gloomer doomer guys always come out after every York and start bellyaching all over the place.

York is for chads!

@eddie g posted:

.

Eddie I'm not a young guy but a middle aged one.  I can understand your desire to keep things the same as you have known them.

I'm curious to know what you would do to attract newer and younger members to the TCA and the York meet if you were given the task?

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

York is fine. You gloomer doomer guys always come out after every York and start bellyaching all over the place.

York is for chads!

🤔 I see my horde of cabooses in that picture 🤣🤣

without allowing the public into our local meets the meet would be over at 11 am. I’m a regular table holder and most of my sales are by the public.

How many are aware that at 8:00 AM on Saturday of the York Meet, Eastern Division holds a meeting open to all TCA members where topics like this can be discussed??

Second, Eastern Division opening up the whole meet to the public is a non starter for the previously made point about sales tax. It would mean every buyer in every hall would have pay tax and every seller in every hall would have to collect it. Is that what those what say the meet should go public really want? I suspect about 80% of the member sellers would not even bother to show up if they had to go through all that red tape.

The dual meet idea solves both problems. TCA holds its meet in the member  halls. Some other entity holds its meet in the dealer halls. TCA meet can go how many days it wishes as does the other meet. They can overlap and if members want to keep selling on Sunday they can move to one of the dealer halls or go home on Saturday.

Pete

When I  go to local train shows, I tell people there that I talk too about the tca and try to sign them up. If you let the public in to York, they are not going to join. There just keep coming as public.

As mentioned TCA-ED's York meet is primarily a members' meet with special tax privileges in the member halls (member to member transactions).  That is why the member halls are off limits to the general public so taxes don't have to be collected.  And the meet is run by all volunteers whom, I believe, also have a life outside trains (except the bathroom attendants who work for tips and the food services).  Are Greenberg or other shows run by volunteers to the extent York is?

None of us has a crystal ball, but I agree that ED's York meet might someday return to a members only meet with no public or hobby vendors.  I think the volunteers would love to go back to two days.

Just got back from York and here's my observations:

1. York is the only true national meet in that it is designed to attract people from all over the United States and Canada.  Other shows like Amherst or Milwaukee Trainfest are local or regional shows.

2. "York" is actually Monday - Saturday.  Monday - Wednesday are the bandit meets; Thursday - Saturday is the official meet.  There's also unaffiliated dealers, like Strasburg Hobbies, Choo Choo Barn, and antique stores with train dealers.

3. Anybody going to York is likely to have the time and money to go whatever the days are.

To be continued. . .

Folks are always lamenting growing the hobby. My recommendation: Forget about putting the responsibility for future growth on the TCA or, even more unfairly, on the TCA Eastern Division. Those groups have heard it all before.

If you want to see the hobby grow, the very best way to do it is to do it yourself. If every member of our great hobby--including OGR Forum participants--would take it upon themselves to attract just ONE new participant to the hobby on an annual basis, the growth would be there. "Grow the hobby one person at a time" is something I have advocated for years, and I firmly believe that OGR magazine has helped to cultivate interest successfully, even though the magazine is no longer readily available at newsstands and large book retailers such as B&N and others.

When you have a visitor to your layout, or come across someone else in your circle of friends, colleagues, or acquaintances, who asks about your hobby, consider giving him or her one of your past issues of OGR. Perhaps--just perhaps--when they see a sampling of what this hobby offers, they may may enticed to jump in and give it a try. And they will know who to turn to if/when they have questions or need some advice.

York Observations, continued:

4. York will continue in its current format as long as there are volunteers and the meet produces net income.

5. 60% of model railroaders are HO scale.  15% are N scale.  25% are all other scales.

6. There is vary little at York for the HO or N scaler.

7. The HO and N scale markets have become more like the O scale market in that their products are limited production.  If you want an out of production item you have to go to the secondary market.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

York is fine. You gloomer doomer guys always come out after every York and start bellyaching all over the place.

York is for chads!

Norm - is that a Stacy in the fore ground?

@Allan Miller posted:

Folks are always lamenting growing the hobby. My recommendation: Forget about putting the responsibility for future growth on the TCA or, even more unfairly, on the TCA Eastern Division. Those groups have heard it all before.

If you want to see the hobby grow, the very best way to do it is to do it yourself. If every member of our great hobby--including OGR Forum participants--would take it upon themselves to attract just ONE new participant to the hobby on an annual basis, the growth would be there. "Grow the hobby one person at a time" is something I have advocated for years, and I firmly believe that OGR magazine has helped to cultivate interest successfully, even though the magazine is no longer readily available at newsstands and large book retailers such as B&N and others.

When you have a visitor to your layout, or come across someone else in your circle of friends, colleagues, or acquaintances, who asks about your hobby, consider giving him or her one of your past issues of OGR. Perhaps--just perhaps--when they see a sampling of what this hobby offers, they may may enticed to jump in and give it a try. And they will know who to turn to if/when they have questions or need some advice.

...And as a reminder...  With the loosening/elimination of draconian Covid protocols, the option of making publications...OGR and other hobby periodicals...available at locations such as hospital and professional office waiting rooms, school libraries, etc., to stir interest might become more available.

When those opportunities were withdrawn during the pandemic, I cringed when dumping past-date publications into recycling dumpsters.   Before I had regularly given boxes of those magazines to a gentleman retiree who served as a courtesy driver for the parking lot bus at our largest local hospital.  He would take them into the hospital and give them to the staff member responsible for maintaining the waiting area amenities.  During the holidays, especially, we'd have a few folks come to the LHS commenting on items they saw in those waiting room magazines for gifting family/friends.

Having retired from our LHS' staff 2+ years ago, my wife and I still visit them weekly to collect pop cans/bottles, old magazines/catalogs/event flyers, packing materials, etc., to either re-use elsewhere or recycle for monetary value then donated to our church's outreach efforts.  I'm seeing hopeful signs that waiting rooms in many establishments are once again providing reading material for clients.  One establishment has even offered to run short video tapes of general or hobby interest on their waiting room monitor, finding them more appealing than the contentious selection of a particular "news" network, or the daily 'soaps'.  I'm aware that they've had a few such videos generated by local clubs to stir up interest in their activities...and membership.

The exposure value of some things when given freely can be multiples of the same when purchased.

Just an additional thought to what Allan proffered...FWIW.

KD

Every York somebody throws out this thread.

Simply put, no thanks.

Like the days just the way they are.

@eddie g posted:

We don't want the public. We want members. Come on Scott. leave the meet just the way it is. Maybe all day Thursday.

You get members by getting the public in to see what it is all about

Your right JOHN, This happens every 6 months. Why don't you guys let the eastern division decide what they want.

NORTON, Are you sure the  8AM meeting is open to all TCA members? I thought it was open to just eastern division members.

Eastern Division TCA has done a great job having/running the York meet for years and I have confidence they will continue to do so in the future. The Thursday to Saturdays days should remain, no Sundays in my opinion, for reasons given in previous posts.  I have gone to York since 1990, taken days off, gone on Saturday and have enjoyed each meet. This discussion comes up every year about changing days, public attendance etc.    EDTCA runs the meet, will make any changes if needed to enhance the meet. Be supportive of the great job they do to allow all of us to to attend this meet.  They’ve tried to be open to the public, not sure that’s been met with much success in attendance, let alone getting new TCA members.       I think all of us TCA members that enjoy this meet should let EDTCA continue to run their meet without our complaints etc after each meet.      Obviously everyone can’t be pleased.