Conversation of MTH scale congressional passenger cars to LED lighting no control boards needed

While I am a big fan of keeping it as simple as possible, I just want to point out a couple of minor concerns with your procedure:

1. You don't say whether you are using fixed command track voltage or variable as in conventional operation. If conventional the led intensity will of course vary directly as the track voltage. While this is certainly no worse than OEM incandescent lighting, lighting modules eliminate that problem. The output and led intensity remains rock steady from any track voltage of about 11 VAC on up.

2. Your system provides no protection from light flicker caused by switches and other momentary power interruptions. Again, lighting modules help avoid this issue with a smoothing capacitor.

3. I have never used 24V strip leds but it appears that the sections each have 6 leds with a resistor and are about 4" long give or take. This length may limit your flexibility somewhat in terms of making the best fit in a car, since you can't cut a section short. 12V strip led as you may know is only 2" long sections, much more flexible.

4. Lastly and most important, IMO your car lighting looks pretty bright, though pictures can be a bit deceiving of course. Most folks (myself included) prefer the lighting to be a bit more subdued. The lighting modules provide adjustment of the output current so that you can fine tune the lighting level to just where you want it. And it will  remain rock solid at that level.

5. This may be a mute point but some will tell you that its not good to use leds with raw AC without a blocker diode to kill the negative part of the AC cycle. But I have recently been converting a few buildings over to straight AC led power with no ill effects so far, so I am personally OK with that part; others may not be.

Having said all the above, as long as it works for you that's the only part that matters. We all go our own way on these things, and opinions are bound to vary! I am certainly not looking to start a heated debate. Peace.

Rod

@ThatGuy posted:

purchase the LED lighting strip 24 V on Amazon. If you use this strip no conversion boards are needed. self regulates and converts over to DC automatically. Since the LED lighting is 24 V we do not need to worry about polarity or voltage

One "nit".   The strip doesn't self-regulate and make DC, it merely uses the positive half-cycle of the AC waveform and ignores the negative half-cycle.

The flicker you see with incandescent bulbs will be more noticeable with unbuffered LED's.  Incandescent bulbs have a latency as the filament doesn't cool immediately when power is removed.  OTOH, an LED light output turns off instantly when you remove it's power.

Given the fact that you have six LED's in series, the issues of max reverse voltage specification of the LED's is probably not a factor, they will handle 30 volts or more reverse voltage, and the peak reverse voltage of 18 VAC will be 25.4 volts.  So, that particular potential issue is a non-issue with the 24V strips.

However, as Rod says, all you have to do is satisfy your needs.  If this works for you, job done.  Flickering LED's with no intensity control doesn't work for me, so I'll continue to use LED lighting regulator boards.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

One "nit".   The strip doesn't self-regulate and make DC, it merely uses the positive half-cycle of the AC waveform and ignores the negative half-cycle.

The flicker you see with incandescent bulbs will be more noticeable with unbuffered LED's.  Incandescent bulbs have a latency as the filament doesn't cool immediately when power is removed.  OTOH, an LED light output turns off instantly when you remove it's power.

Given the fact that you have six LED's in series, the issues of max reverse voltage specification of the LED's is probably not a factor, they will handle 30 volts or more reverse voltage, and the peak reverse voltage of 18 VAC will be 25.4 volts.  So, that particular potential issue is a non-issue with the 24V strips.

However, as Rod says, all you have to do is satisfy your needs.  If this works for you, job done.  Flickering LED's with no intensity control doesn't work for me, so I'll continue to use LED lighting regulator boards.

How much do those led lighting regulatory board costs and what is the best vendor to buy them. We probably have more than 10 sets of passenger cars with old lighting so we only would upgrade a few of our favorites each year

@The TrainBoard posted:

How much do those led lighting regulatory board costs and what is the best vendor to buy them. We probably have more than 10 sets of passenger cars with old lighting so we only would upgrade a few of our favorites each year

You can purchase complete ready to go lighting kits (designed by grj) online at Hennings Trains. They come in a pack of two boards and leds strips, enough to do two cars.

There are also inexpensive do it yourself kits available for those handy with a soldering gun. Please see the For Sale category.

Rod

Just curious - If someone wants to forego the LED conversion, is there anything available that would work (without complicated installation) to reduce the intensity of the incandescent bulbs that are already installed in the car? Running at 16-18 v. the lights are usually too bright.

@breezinup posted:

Just curious - If someone wants to forego the LED conversion, is there anything available that would work (without complicated installation) to reduce the intensity of the incandescent bulbs that are already installed in the car? Running at 16-18 v. the lights are usually too bright.

I have never tried this but putting a diode in the feed to the lighting would cut off half the AC wave and reduce your intensity quite a bit. You could try it and see if it answers your needs. It would be easy to do in a premier car, but more difficult in a Railking car.

Rod

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

One "nit".   The strip doesn't self-regulate and make DC, it merely uses the positive half-cycle of the AC waveform and ignores the negative half-cycle.

The flicker you see with incandescent bulbs will be more noticeable with unbuffered LED's.  Incandescent bulbs have a latency as the filament doesn't cool immediately when power is removed.  OTOH, an LED light output turns off instantly when you remove it's power.

Given the fact that you have six LED's in series, the issues of max reverse voltage specification of the LED's is probably not a factor, they will handle 30 volts or more reverse voltage, and the peak reverse voltage of 18 VAC will be 25.4 volts.  So, that particular potential issue is a non-issue with the 24V strips.

However, as Rod says, all you have to do is satisfy your needs.  If this works for you, job done.  Flickering LED's with no intensity control doesn't work for me, so I'll continue to use LED lighting regulator boards.

Your right John, I tried to keep it simple rather than explain half wave full wave. I find in these cars with double pickups and brass bearings the light almost never flash as the trucks a full diecast so ground is very good. As for too bright since they are 24 volt they are already dim and the simple addition of a resistor lowers the lighting as well.

simple thoughts, simple solutions

@ThatGuy posted:

simple thoughts, simple solutions

Like I said, the only person you have to please is you.

@breezinup posted:

Just curious - If someone wants to forego the LED conversion, is there anything available that would work (without complicated installation) to reduce the intensity of the incandescent bulbs that are already installed in the car? Running at 16-18 v. the lights are usually too bright.

Yep, Switch the bulb out for a 24 or 28 volt variant.  Did this with a few postwar cabooses, a 28 volt bulb has a nice glow at 18 volts.

@Rod Stewart posted:

You can purchase complete ready to go lighting kits (designed by grj) online at Hennings Trains. They come in a pack of two boards and leds strips, enough to do two cars.

They also come as just the regulators if you don't mind soldering, but want to save money.

LED Lighting Regulator

Installation is pretty simple, and they're very compact for ease in finding them a home.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Like I said, the only person you have to please is you.

Yes Sir!

@H1000 posted:

Yep, Switch the bulb out for a 24 or 28 volt variant.  Did this with a few postwar cabooses, a 28 volt bulb has a nice glow at 18 volts.

That won't work for the passenger cars I'm talking about, which are more modern Lionel aluminum 15" cars with overhead circuit boards that run the length of the car, with six small incandescent lights (or seven, have to look).

You can get 18V bulbs as replacements.  Also, if you insert a diode in series with the power to the light string, it'll cut the brightness way down.  If you use the diode, I suggest alternating the polarity for half the cars so you don't impart a DC bias to the tracks.

I'll be that scale freak tonight to say that MTH's cars are not scale regardless of how they are lit.  They are all 3" and some change short on length. 

However, my one scale Congo car has its own set of issues.

@breezinup posted:

That won't work for the passenger cars I'm talking about, which are more modern Lionel aluminum 15" cars with overhead circuit boards that run the length of the car, with six small incandescent lights (or seven, have to look).

Well, that would have been handy information to provide in your post.  You can also lightly paint the bulbs to reduce the light output or apply a shroud of wax paper around the bulb to dim and yellow the color a bit. There are plenty of low-tech solutions to achieve your goal.

Without a control board you’ll get flicker.  I personally can’t stand flicker.  I use John’s kits for that reason no flicker.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

They also come as just the regulators if you don't mind soldering, but want to save money.

LED Lighting Regulator

Installation is pretty simple, and they're very compact for ease in finding them a home.

Do these need a choke if being used with DCS?

If you search on Amazon for "AC DC Buck Converter" you'll get plenty of results for similar adjustable voltage converters that work very well. They are a larger package but also can handle more current if you wish to use them to dim incandescent bulbs. I've outfitted several passenger set with them and never had any DCS signal problems but adding a choke is pretty easy to do.

@Rod Stewart posted:

I have never tried this but putting a diode in the feed to the lighting would cut off half the AC wave and reduce your intensity quite a bit. You could try it and see if it answers your needs. It would be easy to do in a premier car, but more difficult in a Railking car.

Rod

Thanks, Rod. The cars I have are all relatively modern Lionel aluminum 15" cars with the full length overhead circuit boards with 6 small incandescents. I'll look into this diode solution.

Otherwise, my quickie go-to in the past (although I haven't done it with passenger cars) has been to paint over half of a bulb (or whatever portion needed to get the right light output) with black high-temperature paint. Definitely a "redneck solution," but quick and it works. I have 9 passenger sets with 6 cars each, so the time and expense to do LED conversions on them would be substantial. I may do a conversion on a set at some point just to check it out, but that's extremely low on my (long) to-do list.

John and H1000, thanks very much for the information. I'm looking forward to checking out your suggestions. H1000, I didn't see your note until now, but I see you've done the paint-over solution as well.

@breezinup posted:

John and H1000, thanks very much for the information. I'm looking forward to checking out your suggestions. H1000, I didn't see your note until now, but I see you've done the paint-over solution as well.

Personally, I' like the cheap-o Amazon AC/DC buck converters (about $3 a piece in bulk) for your situation.  You can dial the voltage in to the maximum light output you want by simply wiring in-line between the pickups and the lights.

If you run your passenger cars in both command and conventional, I'd swap the bulbs out for a 6-volt variant and turn the buck convertor down to 4 volts or so to get the dimmer look you want. Now your lighting will always be at the level you want regardless of the input voltage.

@GG1 4877 posted:

I'll be that scale freak tonight to say that MTH's cars are not scale regardless of how they are lit.  They are all 3" and some change short on length.

However, my one scale Congo car has its own set of issues.

Well yes they are not full scale. They were full scale at the time. MTH stated they did this, so they would run on smaller layouts and be as close to scale as possible. I like them just like anything else today it’s all Personal. I know there is some people who the flickering lights drive them insane my attitude is I could care less. If the tracks are clean, and the wheels and rollers are clean these cars, rarely of a blink, flicker, or anything else. The one thing MTH did was to make sure there was good solid contact between the cars and rails. With solids trucks, brass bushings and two sets of roller contacts. It’s a rarity that the lights ever flicker on these cars. That’s why I don’t worry about putting in the circuit.

and since the LEDs are 24 V, they’re dimmed automatically by the track voltage if you want them to be even dimmer, you can add a resistor or you could block out every other LED, or I have used gelcoat over the LEDs, which will dim them them further.

As my father would say, this is not Apollo, we are not building the lunar Lem. Let’s keep it simple.

by the way, gunrunners Boards are easy to install. I’ve put a few in for other people and basically they just drop in between the LEDs and your pick up shoes. You can accomplish the same thing with them as well.

@H1000 posted:

Personally, I' like the cheap-o Amazon AC/DC buck converters (about $3 a piece in bulk) for your situation.  You can dial the voltage in to the maximum light output you want by simply wiring in-line between the pickups and the lights.

If you run your passenger cars in both command and conventional, I'd swap the bulbs out for a 6-volt variant and turn the buck convertor down to 4 volts or so to get the dimmer look you want. Now your lighting will always be at the level you want regardless of the input voltage.

Yeah, but the GRJ/DIY version is very price competitive, if not cheaper than the buck converters to build.  Further the size difference is pretty important for the various install locations, especially in the passenger car application.  YMMV.

@rplst8 posted:

Do these need a choke if being used with DCS?

No, the choke is built into these boards, nothing else needs to be added except LED's.

@ThatGuy posted:

As my father would say, this is not Apollo, we are not building the lunar Lem. Let’s keep it simple.

I hear ya, but ...

This is simple.  Not 1950's era simple, but 1990's era simple.  Everything on John's board is 40 year old technology.  There's not even a microprocessor.  Nothing is being stretched, even in the slightest way.

And, don't forget that this kind of solution is in most passenger cars sold presently.

No one is shooting for the moon here.  We're not even leaving the ground.

Mike

@H1000 posted:

Personally, I' like the cheap-o Amazon AC/DC buck converters (about $3 a piece in bulk) for your situation.  You can dial the voltage in to the maximum light output you want by simply wiring in-line between the pickups and the lights.

If you run your passenger cars in both command and conventional, I'd swap the bulbs out for a 6-volt variant and turn the buck convertor down to 4 volts or so to get the dimmer look you want. Now your lighting will always be at the level you want regardless of the input voltage.

Thanks. I'll check out the buck converters. Below are photos of the mostly standard lighting strips found in Lionel 15" aluminum passenger cars (those with interiors and figures) over the past 18 years or so. They have six 18V 80 MA clear bi-pin bulbs, which can be removed from their sockets, with an on/off switch.

If it's possible to find compatable bulbs that are less bright, that's an easy solution, but I don't know if such bulbs are available. The other solution would be the buck converters as you suggested. The wiring is right there, and you mentioned they can be adjusted, which gives flexibility.

@breezinup posted:

Thanks. I'll check out the buck converters. Below are photos of the mostly standard lighting strips found in Lionel 15" aluminum passenger cars (those with interiors and figures) over the past 18 years or so. They have six 18V 80 MA clear bi-pin bulbs, which can be removed from their sockets, with an on/off switch.

If it's possible to find compatable bulbs that are less bright, that's an easy solution, but I don't know if such bulbs are available. The other solution would be the buck converters as you suggested. The wiring is right there, and you mentioned they can be adjusted, which gives flexibility.

This might be easier than you think.  By the looks of it, you can pull those incandescent bulbs out, replace them with some warm white LEDs, and use one of the previously discussed buck convertors to dial the voltage in around 2.6 - 2.8 volts to get the desired light output.

@ThatGuy posted:

Well yes they are not full scale. They were full scale at the time. MTH stated they did this, so they would run on smaller layouts and be as close to scale as possible. I like them just like anything else today it’s all Personal.

Check the letterboard again and you will see why I posted the photo I did.  This is one of the prototypes for the GGD set and there is a very obvious problem you can't unsee once you see it. 

A little red paint will fix her!

ECI

My mom is from Tennessee.  It’s just spelled like I learned how to pronounce it.

@GG1 4877 posted:

Check the letterboard again and you will see why I posted the photo I did.  This is one of the prototypes for the GGD set and there is a very obvious problem you can't unsee once you see it. 

Two whys don’t make a what.

@GG1 4877 posted:

Check the letterboard again and you will see why I posted the photo I did.  This is one of the prototypes for the GGD set and there is a very obvious problem you can't unsee once you see it. 

Makes it a one off………

@rplst8 posted:

Two whys don’t make a what.

@ThatGuy posted:

Makes it a one off………

Maybe it was buy one, get one free?

@rplst8 posted:

Maybe it was buy one, get one free?

Or alcohol was involved

@ThatGuy posted:

Or alcohol was involved

Actually, the real story isn't that interesting.  The old Champion decals had "Pennsylvania" spread across two lines based on the size of the base sheet.  PENSY was on one line and LVANIA was on the second.  The factory was given these as a sample of PRR's unique variation of the Clarendon font.  They somehow managed to get two "Y"s into the final lettering. 

I think it is hilarious personally.  There are three other cars with this lettering on them and I wish they were part of my collection.  I have not been too successful in getting the current owner of the other cars to part with them.  I think it would be just plain fun to put the Y in the PRR when running a Congressional.

On topic, the GGD Congressional cars are pre LED, so that is an update I will want to make one day when I get around to it.  That coach will likely run in a PC train I am starting to get the cars together for.

@GG1 4877 posted:

Actually, the real story isn't that interesting.  The old Champion decals had "Pennsylvania" spread across two lines based on the size of the base sheet.  PENSY was on one line and LVANIA was on the second.  The factory was given these as a sample of PRR's unique variation of the Clarendon font.  They somehow managed to get two "Y"s into the final lettering.

I think it is hilarious personally.  There are three other cars with this lettering on them and I wish they were part of my collection.  I have not been too successful in getting the current owner of the other cars to part with them.  I think it would be just plain fun to put the Y in the PRR when running a Congressional.

On topic, the GGD Congressional cars are pre LED, so that is an update I will want to make one day when I get around to it.  That coach will likely run in a PC train I am starting to get the cars together for.

I found four extra MTH premier congressional cars that must’ve been for either a break up or something. These cars are now marked as rare Penn Central transitional cars. I mark the ends of the cars for the new owners. I’m sure this will set somebody’s hair on fire, but I love it