Been pondering the idea of upgrading my old 20-3029-1 Mike’s GS-4, and I finally realized what I want to do about it. I’ve heard the MTH sound files for GS/4, both the PS2 3v with/without air horn and PS3s... I like most of the whistles, but the chuff does nothing for me on any of them - and since the chuff is a constant when running - it shouldn’t lack.

After playing the limited ERR steam files out there - I grew to love Large Steam (which seems to be identical to the latest Lionel Legacy #611 J, minus Legacy), but the problem is it doesn’t have the air horn. The whistle is great and believable enough for a GS-4, it isn’t tiring. The chug is the real winner. It’s heart-pounding and robust and it sounds great. This is how I want my daylight to sound and I like that it will have TMCC. Missing the air horn though sucks, and since the whistle on the Daylight file sounds much more like a UP FEF - I can’t see myself believing that one in the GS-4. It’s too bad they didn’t swap the whistles on those files because the Dayljght would have been perfect if so.

My idea is to add sound and tmcc coupler to my water tender and leave it in Signal Sounds mode. I would put the Daylight file in it and only blow the air horn while lashed to the GS-4 which will have the Large Steam file in its tender.

Doing the PS3 upgrade at this point is undesirable to me and I don’t want the mikes sound, plus my other Daylights are all Lionel so I don’t want to be stuck when  tethered MTH water tender that only connects to a Mikes engine. I can put a tmcc equipped tender behind anything though.

does anyone see an issue with doing this? Is it possible?

————————-

*Also found that the articulated file is the same as the Vision Legacy 4014 sounds and I’m thinking of just putting ERR in one of my older Korean Big Boys and forgoing the idea of waiting around for a $3k new Chinese Vision Line oil tender version to come out.

anyone still do these kinds of upgrades? I’m interested in having at least these two done. Thanks. 

Original Post

Well, you'll be getting two bells and whistles all the time.  How are you planning on killing off the other whistle?  Maybe having the two whistles will blend.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, you'll be getting two bells and whistles all the time.  How are you planning on killing off the other whistle?  Maybe having the two whistles will blend.

Well in lash mode the lead should be the one firing the whistle. I should be able to dial the ENG ID and trigger the horn in the other without them both going off, yes? No? 

I do them, but you have me confused?  What do you mean your putting a Daylight SF in an ERR upgrade to the water tender?

You have an MTH PS-1 engine and you want to upgrade it too TMCC?  Ok that is a Cruise Cdr right?   You will loose synchronized smoke without John super chuffer.  Now your going to add what to the water tender?  This will be an expensive upgrade in parts alone.  Cruise, 2 sound sets.  Better off selling and buying a Legacy engine.  Probably be cheaper in long run.  G

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I think he's just putting a TMCC receiver in the water tender to be able to use the horn from the second RS board in lieu of the other one.

Yes, it will be more expensive to go that way.

What you want to do is going to cost close to $400 in parts alone to upgrade that GS4. Honestly a PS3 conversion would cost half that and have everything you would need. If you have both DCS and Legacy it's the way to go.

I have that same locomotive upgraded to PS2 3V. Works great and has a great whistle. 

Santa Fe, All the Way

Lou1985 posted:

What you want to do is going to cost close to $400 in parts alone to upgrade that GS4. Honestly a PS3 conversion would cost half that and have everything you would need. If you have both DCS and Legacy it's the way to go.

I have that same locomotive upgraded to PS2 3V. Works great and has a great whistle. 

You need to go back and read the original post.

DdotCdot posted:

Been pondering the idea of upgrading my old 20-3029-1 Mike’s GS-4, and I finally realized what I want to do about it. I’ve heard the MTH sound files for GS/4, both the PS2 3v with/without air horn and PS3s... I like most of the whistles, but the chuff does nothing for me on any of them - and since the chuff is a constant when running - it shouldn’t lack.

After playing the limited ERR steam files out there - I grew to love Large Steam (which seems to be identical to the latest Lionel Legacy #611 J, minus Legacy), but the problem is it doesn’t have the air horn. The whistle is great and believable enough for a GS-4, it isn’t tiring. The chug is the real winner. It’s heart-pounding and robust and it sounds great. This is how I want my daylight to sound and I like that it will have TMCC. Missing the air horn though sucks, and since the whistle on the Daylight file sounds much more like a UP FEF - I can’t see myself believing that one in the GS-4. It’s too bad they didn’t swap the whistles on those files because the Dayljght would have been perfect if so.

My idea is to add sound and tmcc coupler to my water tender and leave it in Signal Sounds mode. I would put the Daylight file in it and only blow the air horn while lashed to the GS-4 which will have the Large Steam file in its tender.

Doing the PS3 upgrade at this point is undesirable to me and I don’t want the mikes sound, plus my other Daylights are all Lionel so I don’t want to be stuck when  tethered MTH water tender that only connects to a Mikes engine. I can put a tmcc equipped tender behind anything though.

While I agree the PS/3 upgrade will be cheaper, it doesn't seem to accomplish what is desired.

Lou1985 posted:

What you want to do is going to cost close to $400 in parts alone to upgrade that GS4. Honestly a PS3 conversion would cost half that and have everything you would need. If you have both DCS and Legacy it's the way to go.

I have that same locomotive upgraded to PS2 3V. Works great and has a great whistle. 

I may settle for this if I can confirm that my PS3 Steam Upgrade Kit Harness is safe to use with a PS2 3v board set, but I am so late to the game and so new to this upgrade stuff that it’s hard to be certain I won’t blow up what I have. I’m kind of flying blind.

On the other hand, I like those ERR/Legacy sounds a lot.

I know for sure I may want to do my Big Boy w/ ERR. MTH doesn’t have a big boy sound set that works for me personally like the ERR does.

The Daylight, if I can confirm the above, I may settle for and do myself w/DCS. But I will miss the chuff that the Large Steam ERR produces. MTH sound doesn’t match that.

If I knew anything about ERR and the Superchuffer I’d try it myself, but without any upgrade instructions I am not confident I will do it right.

You are right about the costs - it sure does add up quick 🤪.

*On second thought the Daylight water tender idea is nutso from a cost stand point. I think I had just fallen in love with the Railsounds I heard online and was desperate for a way to get both the right whistle and the right air horn together in the same train without considering the cost. That’s out. - Unless someone knows what exact parts would be needed and I can do a parts cost breakdown on it. - Again, all it would be is the ERR Daylight sound and Speaker (I may already have 8 ohm speakers). It already has a PS1 Coil Coupler. And I’m guessing it would need TMCC radio? And I’m going to probably need to add rollers but I can do that part. The idea of having it able to serve all of my TMCC/Legacy Daylights is pretty cool.

 

 

The PS32 board is a drop-in replacement for the 3V PS/2 board, very little needs to be done.  Obviously, you don't need the battery, but other than that, just make sure the wire harness will reach the connectors on the PS32 board.

As far as upgrade instructions, the ERR stuff, the Super-Chuffer, and the Chuff-Generator all come with instructions.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The PS32 board is a drop-in replacement for the 3V PS/2 board, very little needs to be done.  Obviously, you don't need the battery, but other than that, just make sure the wire harness will reach the connectors on the PS32 board.

As far as upgrade instructions, the ERR stuff, the Super-Chuffer, and the Chuff-Generator all come with instructions.

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate all of your swift responses and help. Same to everyone.

Do you happen to have a part (order) number for that PS32 board set if I decide to go that route? I’d like to look up the cost, thanks.

 

Unless something has changed, the PS32 is only available to ASC techs.  However, you can obtain one from me or any MTH tech if you want to go that route.  MSRP on the PS32 board is $230, and you'll need the heatsink kit as well for $8.  I can obviously give you a better price on that if you want one.

Your engine is a PS-1 engine.  So just get the PS-3 steam upgrade kit.  Upgrade the engine.  Then get your large steam sound set and put it in your Water Tender.  You can run 4 wire tether to control the Water Tender Light and PS-2  type coupler.  Turn volume down for engine sounds on your engine and let the chuff run on the water tender.

Of course EER uses a magnetic chuff.  So you do not have chuff rate control.  But again you can get a chuff generator from John, but in the end you would be close to $500 in parts alone to get what you want.  Sell it and buy a Legacy engine if you do not like the MTH sounds.  Unfortunately, I would say the quality of that MTH Premier engine is better, but you prioritize what is important to you.  G

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Lionel Independent Repair Tech

Virginia Train Collectors Member

DdotCdot posted:

Been pondering the idea of upgrading my old 20-3029-1 Mike’s GS-4, and I finally realized what I want to do about it. I’ve heard the MTH sound files for GS/4, both the PS2 3v with/without air horn and PS3s... I like most of the whistles, but the chuff does nothing for me on any of them - and since the chuff is a constant when running - it shouldn’t lack.

 

I suspect the reason you are not impressed with the chuff on the PS3 version might have more to do with the speaker and its lack of enclosure than the sound file. PS3 uses 4 ohm speakers. There are many high quality 2" drivers out there when coupled with a decent enclosure will come close to the best Legacy chuff sounds. If there is't enough room in the lead tender there will be plenty of room in the water tender.

For DIY'selfers this is a $200 upgrade with PS3 and driver.

Pete

 

GGG posted:

Of course EER uses a magnetic chuff.  So you do not have chuff rate control.  But again you can get a chuff generator from John, but in the end you would be close to $500 in parts alone to get what you want.  Sell it and buy a Legacy engine if you do not like the MTH sounds.  Unfortunately, I would say the quality of that MTH Premier engine is better, but you prioritize what is important to you.  G

Well, not $500 in parts.   The Chuff-Generator and Super-Chuffer adds $110 to the prices of the ERR stuff. 

I agree with Pete on the sounds, perhaps a better speaker and enclosure might improve the bass in the chuff and make it good enough.

 
 
GGG posted:

Your engine is a PS-1 engine.  So just get the PS-3 steam upgrade kit.  Upgrade the engine.  Then get your large steam sound set and put it in your Water Tender.  You can run 4 wire tether to control the Water Tender Light and PS-2  type coupler.  Turn volume down for engine sounds on your engine and let the chuff run on the water tender.

Of course EER uses a magnetic chuff.  So you do not have chuff rate control.  But again you can get a chuff generator from John, but in the end you would be close to $500 in parts alone to get what you want.  Sell it and buy a Legacy engine if you do not like the MTH sounds.  Unfortunately, I would say the quality of that MTH Premier engine is better, but you prioritize what is important to you.  G

Now THAT is a pretty darn good idea. The magnetic chuff might work well enough, but I don’t understand how the chuff generator works and would consider it if it’s an easy thing to program sync on. How does it work?

Shoot - now I am wishing I had just a generic black unlettered water tender to do this to so I could run it’s sound behind any lacking Steamer. That would be cool and efficient!

*FYI - I agree wholeheartedly that the quality of this MTH Daylight is unmatched. I have taken the whole thing apart and put it back together a few times. It is beautifully engineered and a mechanical Marvel. One of the best out of Korea. I also own the older Legacy 4436 version - simply because it’s the only O Gauge Daylight with the most correct whistle and I got it for an absurd deal (otherwise I wouldn’t care for 4436). But the Chinese build is nothing like the MTH. It’s not bad, and it’s very good looking....but it ain’t the same as the MTH. Love the sounds though!

The Chuff-Generator is designed to be attached to the drive motor, it simply counts stripes and generates chuffs based on the count.  It's programmable to set it for any locomotive wheels size and gear ratio.  The tach strip is added to the flywheel to trigger the C-G sensor.

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gunrunnerjohn posted:
GGG posted:

Of course EER uses a magnetic chuff.  So you do not have chuff rate control.  But again you can get a chuff generator from John, but in the end you would be close to $500 in parts alone to get what you want.  Sell it and buy a Legacy engine if you do not like the MTH sounds.  Unfortunately, I would say the quality of that MTH Premier engine is better, but you prioritize what is important to you.  G

Well, not $500 in parts.   The Chuff-Generator and Super-Chuffer adds $110 to the prices of the ERR stuff. 

I agree with Pete on the sounds, perhaps a better speaker and enclosure might improve the bass in the chuff and make it good enough.

I have a pitch-perfect sensitive ear and attention to detail with rhythm and tone which creates a very particular interest in chuff sound (in short: I am a complete pain in the rear to please). So, no matter what I will know the difference in sound and it’s the Lionel recording I like the most. But who doesn’t appreciate good bass and clarity?? I might do the enhancement for both the MTH sound in the tender and the ERR in the water tender.

I like this idea no matter what. Better drivers and enclosure are something I’ve been wanting to do to all of my MTH Steam when I get the chance. My brother can probably help build the enclosures out of a solid plastic material (unless there are some good proven ones out there you guys know of). Anyone have some safe driver parts to recommend doubling up (like FatBoys) since MTH boards are sensitive to the load you put on them?

One issue I've found with the MTH stuff is the stock MTH speaker, while maybe not the best fidelity, is a very efficient speaker.  That being the case, other speakers tend not to give you the same volume, that's sometimes an issue.  For simple enclosures for 2" speakers, I use thin-wall 2" PVC pipe, and I cut a piece and then glue a piece of Styrene sheet over the top to create a baffle.  I can size the height to fit in the space available in the tender.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The Chuff-Generator is designed to be attached to the drive motor, it simply counts stripes and generates chuffs based on the count.  It's programmable to set it for any locomotive wheels size and gear ratio.  The tach strip is added to the flywheel to trigger the C-G sensor.

Ah, ok. Thanks for the visual. That’s a lot like MTH tach system. So, for the sake of pening this idea out a bit - GGG mentioned adding this all into the water tender (I assume he meant as one isolated add-On tender with all of the sound and radio electronics self contained - probably nutty in cost, but so is the whole hobby lol).... How would this chuff generator benefit this water tender idea without a motor to read tach off of?? Or did I miss something?

Well, I don't see how you'll get accurate chuffing from the water tender.  You'd clearly have to have something tied to the driver rotation to get accurate chuffing.  The only way I see this working for the chuff signal to be generated in the locomotive and piped back to the aux tender for the RS rig.  Even then, if the locomotive is running PS/3, the chuff won't be accurately synced with the smoke unit.  I think George was alluding to some of the difficulties of the chuff in the tender. 

Now, you could start talking about crazy stuff like synchronizing the chuff in the tender to when the smoke motor was energized, that would sync them up at least.  However, when you turned smoke off, you'd lose the chuff.  But, you could then turn up the PS/3 chuff and at least have some sound for smoke-free operation.  Triggering from the smoke motor would be fairly simple, I'd be looking at a reed relay to generate the chuff with a little filter to avoid interfering with the motor operation.  MTH reverses polarity on the motor briefly to stop the motor quickly, so you'd need to filter that out.  I'm thinking a diode, series resistor, and a small cap, probably in the 1uf range in front of a 5V reed relay.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, I don't see how you'll get accurate chuffing from the water tender.  You'd clearly have to have something tied to the driver rotation to get accurate chuffing.  The only way I see this working for the chuff signal to be generated in the locomotive and piped back to the aux tender for the RS rig.  Even then, if the locomotive is running PS/3, the chuff won't be accurately synced with the smoke unit.  I think George was alluding to some of the difficulties of the chuff in the tender. 

Now, you could start talking about crazy stuff like synchronizing the chuff in the tender to when the smoke motor was energized, that would sync them up at least.  However, when you turned smoke off, you'd lose the chuff.  But, you could then turn up the PS/3 chuff and at least have some sound for smoke-free operation.  Triggering from the smoke motor would be fairly simple, I'd be looking at a reed relay to generate the chuff with a little filter to avoid interfering with the motor operation.  MTH reverses polarity on the motor briefly to stop the motor quickly, so you'd need to filter that out.  I'm thinking a diode, series resistor, and a small cap, probably in the 1uf range in front of a 5V reed relay.

John - what if a simple on/off switch was added between the heater and its power feed - that way I can leave the fan motor going for the chuff in the water tender, but run smoke free and still achieve all that you mentioned? (I only get to run smoke occasionally.)

You could, obviously, turn off the heater and run the fan, that would still generate the chuff, and I don't see any issue doing that.  Probably the cheapest way to accomplish the goal.

You could really have a DP switch and turn off the fan as well.  You could still tap in before the switch to extract the chuff signal and ship it to the tender.  You can actually do all of this in the primary tender, all the wiring is there.

If you want to get REALLY fancy, you could do a wireless link to the water tender.

As cool as all of these ideas have been, I think I need to be realistic and settle a bit. I think what I have decided to do is hunt for a Lionel Water (Aux) tender in generic black Union Pacific lettering (or unlettered) as it will already have pickup rollers. I may then send that to you John (if you are willing) to have it upgraded with full Large Steam sound and TMCC with the magnetic chuff (yeah, I know - it's not SuperChuffer magic). The idea of running tethers, and limiting it to one specific engine, annoys the heck out of me, although the wiring schematics discussed before are quite brilliant and may prove useful for someone else's future project. I just don't want to deal. 

Last question before I give up...because, honestly, talking new ideas is fun.... John, would there be a way to have the chuff talk wirelessly, as you mentioned before, in addition to having it equipped with a magnetic roller wheel? So at least one or two of my engines can have the transmitter installed (somehow) and be perfectly synced, but yet I can run this sucker behind other "less intelligent" steamers and at least get the chuff sounds (without perfect sync). How would you achieve this, if possible?

Well, now you're talking about a science project, and the costs really go up.  If it takes me hours of research to gather the parts and get it all working, someone has to pay for that.  

I actually have ideas on wireless communication, but I need to do some development work to make the link more intelligent so there can be more than one running at the same time.  That's going to require a new PCB, new software, etc.  In other words, if I were doing this as a product, or for my own use, it would be on me.  However, if I took on a job for someone to do all of this, I'd expect them to foot the bill.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, now you're talking about a science project, and the costs really go up.  If it takes me hours of research to gather the parts and get it all working, someone has to pay for that.  

I actually have ideas on wireless communication, but I need to do some development work to make the link more intelligent so there can be more than one running at the same time.  That's going to require a new PCB, new software, etc.  In other words, if I were doing this as a product, or for my own use, it would be on me.  However, if I took on a job for someone to do all of this, I'd expect them to foot the bill.

Well....I would certainly never expect you or anyone to do a bunch of work on your own time for me for free. Thank you for explaining it all.

I guess I am going with the magnets on the Aux tender. This might actually work quite well behind any Steamer. I may start there with the ERR large steam in the water tender (and get an extra articulated sound card to swap for big boy/challenger runs) and see how it does for me all around. Seems to be the most versatile snd cost effective solution.

Now I have to find a black Aux tender with rollers...

I am going to attempt my GS-4 upgrade with the 3.0 kit myself. As far as I can tell it should work with a PS2 3v board which I have on hand. But if I have to use the PS32 then I’ll be picking one of those up soon. I’m going to keep the original lighting and not do LEDs, so hopefully that won’t be an issue.

DdotCdot posted:

Well....I would certainly never expect you or anyone to do a bunch of work on your own time for me for free. Thank you for explaining it all.

I wasn't trying to imply that, I only was pointing out an upgrade where the variables are known is bounded in price.  An upgrade that is a research project up front is open-ended.  Sorry if you took it the wrong way.

gunrunnerjohn posted:
DdotCdot posted:

Well....I would certainly never expect you or anyone to do a bunch of work on your own time for me for free. Thank you for explaining it all.

I wasn't trying to imply that, I only was pointing out an upgrade where the variables are known is bounded in price.  An upgrade that is a research project up front is open-ended.  Sorry if you took it the wrong way.

No problem, I knew you weren’t implying anything . Sorry if I came across the wrong way. I totally appreciate all of the feedback and ideas. This is great food for thought and I will be in touch at some point. 

This water tender idea could be very cool.

Mikado 4501 posted:

I’ve been reading the comments on the choice in sound files, and ERR does make a Daylight/steam locomotive with horn sound package.

The whistle is pretty much the same as the first Legacy FEF-3, with the addition of a horn sound.

https://m.soundcloud.com/rrsounds/daylight

Right. This was sort of the issue from the beginning. If that Daylight sound file just had the same whistle and chuff as the Large Steam (close enough for Daylights or J Class) - I would have been just fine with that and called it a day. The fact that it sounds exactly like that FEF which I had (and will replace) is bothersome. It doesn't sound correct for a Daylight. This was how the whole discussion of putting Large Steam in my Daylight and the ERR Daylight file in the water tender began - to allow me to get the air horn and daylight announcements out of the water tender, and the Large Steam sound package in the daylight at the same time while running together with TMCC lash up...

From there a lot of cool ideas came about in the discussion and eventually gave me the idea to do something with a generic black water tender that will have the Large Steam sound file for any lacking steam engine it runs behind. I am going to go the route of doing a PS32 upgrade on my Daylight it seems at this point.

DdotCdot posted:
Lou1985 posted:

The MTH sound file for the whistle is pretty close: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...48#86606266967139248

Yes and that's the one I will probably put in with the upgrade. It's nice. Chuff's kind of eh, but it will have to do.

Mine sounds pretty good. I bought it with the conversion done. The installer put in an upgraded speaker and baffle. I'm not sure what speaker it is but it's larger than the factory speaker in my other two PS2 3V steam locomotives. It has more bass and is noticeably louder than the factory locomotives. The whistle at the 100 sound setting will hurt your ears. I run it at 70% volume max. 

Santa Fe, All the Way

Lou1985 posted:
DdotCdot posted:
Lou1985 posted:

The MTH sound file for the whistle is pretty close: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...48#86606266967139248

Yes and that's the one I will probably put in with the upgrade. It's nice. Chuff's kind of eh, but it will have to do.

Mine sounds pretty good. I bought it with the conversion done. The installer put in an upgraded speaker and baffle. I'm not sure what speaker it is but it's larger than the factory speaker in my other two PS2 3V steam locomotives. It has more bass and is noticeably louder than the factory locomotives. The whistle at the 100 sound setting will hurt your ears. I run it at 70% volume max. 

You are very lucky to have that one already upgraded so well. Wish mine was like that. Not to be a pest, but would you mind sharing a photo of the inside of your tender when you have a moment? I'm just curious to see how yours was done under the hood (not the engine, just the tender). If you're not comfortable opening it up and photographing it, I totally understand.

Also, does your bigger speaker stay clear even at max volume?

DdotCdot posted:
Lou1985 posted:
DdotCdot posted:
Lou1985 posted:

The MTH sound file for the whistle is pretty close: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...48#86606266967139248

Yes and that's the one I will probably put in with the upgrade. It's nice. Chuff's kind of eh, but it will have to do.

Mine sounds pretty good. I bought it with the conversion done. The installer put in an upgraded speaker and baffle. I'm not sure what speaker it is but it's larger than the factory speaker in my other two PS2 3V steam locomotives. It has more bass and is noticeably louder than the factory locomotives. The whistle at the 100 sound setting will hurt your ears. I run it at 70% volume max. 

You are very lucky to have that one already upgraded so well. Wish mine was like that. Not to be a pest, but would you mind sharing a photo of the inside of your tender when you have a moment? I'm just curious to see how yours was done under the hood (not the engine, just the tender). If you're not comfortable opening it up and photographing it, I totally understand.

Also, does your bigger speaker stay clear even at max volume?

It may take a week or two (I'm a bit busy right now) but I'll pull the tender shell off and take a picture for you.

Actually the first thing I did when I bought it was pop the tender and locomotive shells off, to make sure everything was wired correctly .

Santa Fe, All the Way

Lou1985 posted:
DdotCdot posted:
Lou1985 posted:
DdotCdot posted:
Lou1985 posted:

The MTH sound file for the whistle is pretty close: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...48#86606266967139248

Yes and that's the one I will probably put in with the upgrade. It's nice. Chuff's kind of eh, but it will have to do.

Mine sounds pretty good. I bought it with the conversion done. The installer put in an upgraded speaker and baffle. I'm not sure what speaker it is but it's larger than the factory speaker in my other two PS2 3V steam locomotives. It has more bass and is noticeably louder than the factory locomotives. The whistle at the 100 sound setting will hurt your ears. I run it at 70% volume max. 

You are very lucky to have that one already upgraded so well. Wish mine was like that. Not to be a pest, but would you mind sharing a photo of the inside of your tender when you have a moment? I'm just curious to see how yours was done under the hood (not the engine, just the tender). If you're not comfortable opening it up and photographing it, I totally understand.

Also, does your bigger speaker stay clear even at max volume?

It may take a week or two (I'm a bit busy right now) but I'll pull the tender shell off and take a picture for you.

Actually the first thing I did when I bought it was pop the tender and locomotive shells off, to make sure everything was wired correctly .

Thanks, no rush. Happy to wait

I do the same thing. Never hurts to check!

 

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