Help me design an attic layout

I'm not interested in following this topic, but I get a bunch of emails every day.

 

Can someone please tell me how to stop following a topic on this forum ?  Thanks./

At the top of the thread it should say "following" with a checkmark.  Click that.

I’m enjoying your progress. You’re really moving along nicely. Nice bunch of accessories to work with. Your dad and uncles (and you) will be like kids in a candy store.  Have they seen the layout already?

Thank you, slow and steady wins the race!

I have lights and powered switches!

Of the 11 switches I think 9 actually came to life. I need to chase some wires tomorrow and check bulbs. I also had one solenoid that wouldn’t turn off and would continually buzz, so I unhooked the wires so it wouldn’t burn out.

Overall a successful night in the train room.

That's good for antiques!   Not many issues to resolve. 

Back to your last post, I have tools and things from my great-grandfather, grandfather and father, so I am with you on having things that they touched. it cause me to think of them and also feels like a link.

Me too. From tools to dishes I can recall eating from in the hi-chair, I find the thngs Ive gathered from them comforting.  Half my home is old furniture/cabinets, and knick knacks. New stuff hit the curb to bring some of it out of storage.

  It's not the source of my love for old stuff; that love allows me to do it

Been a busy few nights getting all the trestle bents shimmed level and fastening them down to the foam board. 

Also, chased all the 1121 switch gremlins down and corrected those issues. All switches now operate on 14v, the lights work, and switch controller lights indicate correct direction...whew.

Finally, I’ve been running buss wires in anticipation of getting the track secured soon. But, first I need to place accessories and see where I need insulated track and operating track sections.

This brings me to my next quandary. I think I have a perfect spot for a 164 log loader. I don’t have one, but would like one if it will fit. Anybody have any experience with these? Anyone have one for sale?

This was my original design, with the ice loader in the back and sawmill in the middle.

After looking at things for awhile, was thinking this would be a perfect place for a 164 log loader between the two tracks. Move the sawmill and ice loader to the back. 

I would have to pick up another 6019 operating track section though.

The other log loader would stay along the same line around the corner.

I have the modern version of it - I am not sure if the base size is the same - I think 11" track tie to track tie end would work.

Do you recommend the new version over the original? I think I have enough room there for it. I will definitely have to reconnoiter the tracks in that area. Shouldn’t be to big a deal though.

Well , it has DC motors, lights and modern control boxes. It runs quietly and the grandkids have no problems. I think it's the same. Fire yours up and decide if you like the operation.  I can also connect it to TMCC/Legacy, which is how I run my layout, except for this accessory. Left it manual for littles.

It keeps everything truly postwar.

Drop off logs, take a specified number of laps or a route and go pick-up logs is the game. Amazing how they forget things, like switching the switch for the siding.

 

Had my first real run last night on the o31 main line after wiring everything up. What a difference it makes having power taps every 10 track section. The power was smooth and constant, no slowing down or buzzing e units. A real pleasure to run.

Tonight will be wiring for the o31 sidings and screwing down the o31 track.

Question about power sources:

Would like some guidance on which power sources to use for various accessories. The photo above is missing one additional small transformer, so two ZW and two small stand alone transformers. 

I have four separate track runs, so obviously the four ZW handles will be for those. Remaining power requirements will be for twelve 1121 switches, lighting for structures, animated accessory power, four isolated sidings, and a derelict siding with smoking caboose and animated boxcar.

I’m unsure which transformers I should use with each requirement. Was thinking the sidings, and animated accessories should go on the stand alone transformers. Everything else would go on the ZW. Thoughts?

I'd keep the ZW's for the mainlines. Maybe a Z for everything else

If both ZWs are 275 watts (input), they are capable of approximately 220 watts output. Below are some general guides regarding Lionel wattage requirements. From the 1954 instruction booklet, page 44. 

 

The whole booklet is very helpful for conventional postwar operating.  Here’s the whole booklet: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...83860657/Booklet.pdf

 

 

The incandescent bulbs are sneaky power hogs. I would consider switching all bulbs to led bulbs. They are relatively pricy for small light bulbs, but consume a fraction of the wattage compared to incandescent bulbs. 

Asymair95 posted:

Would like some guidance on which power sources to use for various accessories. The photo above is missing one additional small transformer, so two ZW and two small stand alone transformers. 

I have four separate track runs, so obviously the four ZW handles will be for those. Remaining power requirements will be for

 

twelve 1121 switches, extra transformer so there are no accidental bumbs.

lighting for structures, zw2c (sm right)

animated accessory power zw2b (sm left)

four isolated sidings , zw1 gets two sidings on a toggle from B & two more sidings on a toggle from C. If you use an 3position switch, they are throttle bump "lockouts".

derelict siding with smoking caboose and animated boxcar. extra transfomer, no bumb.

I’m unsure which transformers I should use with each requirement. Was thinking the sidings, and animated accessories should go on the stand alone transformers. Everything else would go on the ZW. Thoughts?

That is how I would've reach for things as a kid

Its really up to you, and maybe the total lights etc. as noted. But that depends on lamp vs extra transfomer wattage.

Bumps are more common on the b&c and I like the idea of all USABLE throttles in one spot, plus they will need the amps.

Gramps used lionel slide switches for the sidings; that is really the only difference.

When you say bumbs, do you mean voltage spikes? I’m unfamiliar with the term.

Spent last night running wiring to sidings through a three position toggle. One toggle for each pair of sidings, so two toggles.

Also dug out all the buildings and accessories. I still have eight street lamps, and eight yard lights to put out, but they kept falling over, so took them off for now. Also missing a 450 track signal that is in a box somewhere. 

Bought a 164 log loader today, and another 6019 track section. 

 

This main table needs a road through there someplace. I don’t really have any plan as of now, and it looks kind of hap hazard. 

The box is sitting where the 164 log loader will go. In the foreground will be a tunnel. In the back corner an airport.

The double siding is still not done in here, nor the roadbed for the trolly line. Was thinking the 450 signal can go in here someplace, and half the yard lights in the sidings. In the back corner next to the switch tower (That doesn’t work) will be a hill/mountain that the track will cut through. 

It was fun putting all the plasticville buildings together. I still have a few buildings left, but don’t think I really have anymore room for the. The brown maintenance building was something I made out of a cardboard box.

Tried to fire up the 1121 switches today and they are all dead, but I have voltage at the transformer terminals. Must have a busted wire someplace. Doesn’t make any sense to me.

Looking great. The maintenance shed looks great as do all of the plasticville buildings. 

Which transformer are you using to power the switches? 

I currently have the switches on the ZW small handles.

No I mean literally accidentally bumping a throttle. It happens. Some things are better reached for than "right there" and visa versa..

 

A quick check is the anti derail circuits. If they work you have controller issues

 

Figured out the no power issue, was operator error...lol.

Got the trolley line roadbed done and track/bumpers screwed down and wired up. Runs like a dream.

These are the two smaller accessory transformers I will be using.

Last 1121 switch controller installed as well as the 3 way toggles for the sidings.

Not sure what to work on tomorrow night. Maybe screw the o31 track down, and figure out a road plan for the town. Need to install the insulated rail sections for the o27 track. I have four sections, I figured one for tripping crossing gates, one for tripping watchtower, one for the switch tower if I can ever get it fixed, and one for a block signal.

 🤔   You need to tilt your phone to switch to lanscape more often now.

Before you didn't have landscape the buildings are now giving you.😎 

There is tons fo wasted frame space within most of the vertical shots; given to the wall above or floor below the tracks.

Save the vertical shots for overheads & "birds eye" focus on a specific subject   Those fill the frame ok   .

Gotcha, will do landscape from now on.

Made some mountains/canyons last night. Will shape them a bit and cover in a layer of quilt batting and paint.

Settled on a road plan through the village. Will probably just paint it on, not sure I want to deal with spackle and the mess.

My last 1121 switch arrived in the mail. Will be going through that and adding constant voltage tomorrow so I can finish the dual sidings.

Tonight I will be running wiring for lighting, and accessories. 

I like the road plan. A train traveling the cloverleaf through the town will be really entertaining to view. Painting the road will keep with the 40's/50's style. You could texture the foam for road cracks and potholes and such. Scuff it sandpaper and then some clever slits and gouges will make the paint pop.

I would be tempted to go more modern with the canyon. Glue the stacked foam and shape and hack it with tools and then paint it. 4 1/2" grinder with a cutting wheel, a rasp, the big kitchen knife, a pencil for detail cracks. Latex paint covers it wells and you can blend the varying shades while it is all wet. Take the pieces to the garage or shop. here's a result from forum member frizzinbee 7/31/18, 8/7/18 he found that heat gun does a nice finish after the shaping and hacking.

And Dave Frary here

That was a great thread, I subscribed to it! Will give the rock mountain a shot.

Got all the insulated track sections in last night. Also installed the derelict track section near the maintenance building for the smoking caboose and operating boxcar. It will be four sections of track long with a bumper on the end. Lastly, started running wiring for the cloverleaf track section, and the o27 mainline.

Had a pleasant surprise when I opened my newly acquired 1121 switches. They are already wired for constant voltage. There are a few other tweaks as well, a real professional job.

You can see the constant voltage knurled terminal in the corner.

Looks like the work was done in 1980.

Question about the light bulb he has installed. There was a small 18v bulb installed, but I know the manual calls for a 14v 430 bulb. 

Would the 18v bulb be for less heat or some other reason?

I have some 430 bulbs, but wanted to ask before I change it.

It could be it is for less heat;, more/less light;, if they ran at 18v constant which is normal for command;, or if they were just all that was available that day.

The life expectancy and lumens could be closer.   

Rule of thumb a 12v bulb burns half as bright for twice as long on 6v. Twice as bright for half as long on 24v. Actual heat build up at unexpected voltage varies on occasion though, and some originally used bulbs are too hot imo. I always bought small bulk to have had a decent variety to test with until even Radio Shack closed leaving no more local electronics shops around that I know of. I 'll be settling for the autoparts store choices more often than not.

Got my new switch installed last night and sidings finished up. Sidings are isolated and on a three position toggle.

I know the one switch head is close to the track, but I can fit an F3 through there with 1/2” to spare. This track will never see any O gauge trains, just o27 compatible. Mainly my Alco and diesel switchers.

Tonight will be track wiring for this o27 mainline and the town cloverleaf area.

Change to the change. I had one 1121 switch left, and discovered I had room to turn one of the terminating sidings into a drive through siding. Moved some track and roadbed around and came up with this.

Tonight I will wire up the 1121 controller for this new switch. Hopefully I have enough thermostat wire left.

Last night I installed a small section of track for a gang car to operate on. It will look good going back and forth between the sidings and to and from the maintenance building.

Nothing exciting to report. I have been doing lots of wiring and getting all the power taps hooked to the buss. Also have all the 6019 track sections hooked up. I’m using accy power to power these, as well as adding a power tap to power the middle rail. More power taps the merrier.

Think I will start painting tonight. My least favorite part, but the most transformative.

I am assuming that you intend to paint the earth tones and such. The beauty of the painting is that you only have to keep it off things that shouldn't be painted. Don't be afraid to blend some colors when it is still wet. You will be pleased with the result.

Are there any seams or cracks that you should spackle?

Are you going with realistic ground cover? Postwar dealer display style? Will you ballast your track? Paint the cork? 

Going to just go with a dark green for now. Will add ground cover, shrubs, and trees and such a little at a time latter. 

Not going to paint cork or ballast yet. I honestly don’t think there is enough room because there is so much track. The whole layout would be ballast...lol.

 

I have an issue with an E Unit tripping into neutral when it crosses a switch. The offending switch is in the foreground of this pic.

This happens when using one of my Alco engines, but only on this switch, none of the others, and not all the time, maybe 50/50 it will pass with no issues.

In other news, I won an auction for a 282 Gantry crane!...yay me. Now I have to find a spot for it...lol.

I found a pic online of the level of scenery I would like to try and accomplish.

You can see he has not ballasted, but has used the cork roadbed to mimic the look of ballast.

I also like his use of ground cover and shrubs. He has a lot more roadway than I have planned at the moment, so I may have to rethink that.

Asymair95 posted:

I have an issue with an E Unit tripping into neutral when it crosses a switch. The offending switch is in the foreground of this pic.

 

This happens when using one of my Alco engines, but only on this switch, none of the others, and not all the time, maybe 50/50 it will pass with no issues.

In other news, I won an auction for a 282 Gantry crane!...yay me. Now I have to find a spot for it...lol.

Is the Alco a one roller (collector) engine?

it is behaving like the throttle is zeroed - check the center rails for voltage and the isolation pins for the non-derail are on the proper rails - a loss of power or common is causing a momentary power loss to the engine.

If you are not sure of which rails should have the isolation pins - give me the switch number and I'll give you a diagram

Asymair95 posted:

I found a pic online of the level of scenery I would like to try and accomplish.

 

You can see he has not ballasted, but has used the cork roadbed to mimic the look of ballast.

I also like his use of ground cover and shrubs. He has a lot more roadway than I have planned at the moment, so I may have to rethink that.

yes, this is a good look.

My preference is a base color in the brown shades matching the dirt in your area and less grass. Look at most grassy areas- when you get up close one can see plenty of earth - only manicured lawns and golf courses and such are dense grass - from a distance it all looks green. The earth typically isn't a consistent color everywhere in an area. I think the grass is too dense in the photo. Paint is cheaper than grass and glue. (Elmer's white - diluted with distilled water to avoid coloration)

Then, well placed shrub material really finishes the job.

That is why I suggested mixing some lighter brown with the green paint that you have. Sort of like camouflage blotching. 

These are 1121 switches, I don’t have any fiber pins in them, not this one anyway. 

The Alco is a two collector roller type engine. It traverses the other 5 switches on this line with no problems, which is why I was thinking it might be the switch.

I will get out the ohm meter and check continuity of the switch rails to the track and report back.

Asymair95 posted:

I have an issue with an E Unit tripping into neutral when it crosses a switch. The offending switch is in the foreground of this pic.

This happens when using one of my Alco engines, but only on this switch, none of the others, and not all the time, maybe 50/50 it will pass with no issues.

In other news, I won an auction for a 282 Gantry crane!...yay me. Now I have to find a spot for it...lol.

Could be the e unit needs some cleaning.

I don't recall if I sent this to you - The Lionel 1954 Operator's manual. Page 28 has the 1122 switches. Insulating pins are needed for the control rails. That should resolve the issue.

After checking the continuity on the switch and finding it good, I dug out another Alco (Erie) to see if the problem still occurred, and it did not.

Looks like I have an e unit problem on the Rock Island. Will have to look into it. I swear I just cleaned that e unit last Christmas before putting it away. 

Spent a few hours painting tonight, looks better already.

It must be too sensitive for the brief power change that may occur at that point on the track. The isolation pins are necessary to prevent weird issues with the control rails and main track power and switch power. 

I worked about 21 of those 1122's and I still am not friends with them.

I will try cleaning the wheels and rollers first and see what happens.

Painting and more painting. 

It is kind of an olive drab color in flat paint.

Looks fantastic - the paint really transforms the layout. I like the color choice. 

  It's most likely a poor connection along the switch's ciruits going to one of the rails; rivet, pivot, & tabs. You can try cross burnishing the rails, especially if they retain a dark tone. 

Look for the possibility of the roller shorting out on the switch rail and points. If the switch boarders a block you may need to add a 3/4" piece of electrical tape to stop an O gauge engine from shorting the rollers on 0-27 turnouts. (I need it on one sw. myself for two engines,1 pw steam, 1 pw diesel switcher.

I like to hit the tab areas with a drop of gun oil, waiting 15min to see if it needs flushing.... Try resetting soldering and/or crimping tabs & rivets.

The eunit dropping out at one spot wouldn't point to the eunit for any reason I can think of. I think it would show on grades if it were contact fingers flexing from draw & heat.

   I could see power drop dropping it out from the intial draw of anti derail coil, especially if there were poor connections in or around the turnout. (even if its fired on its own power supply if the common is saturated...).  If they are seperately powered coils, try it on dead switches. If it stops, look at improving common connections.

  Is there a power feed to all three legs of the turnout?

It appears it is just a problem with this one Alco for some reason. My other Alco engines don’t have a problem with this switch. 

I will scrub the wheels and rollers with a green 3m pad to remove grease and gunk, and also go over the rails in the area of the offending switch. 

I have the switch wired to a separate accy transformer at 14v just to move the switch. Track power flows through the switch connection pins, and through either soldered wires, or a metal buss bar beneath the switch.

 

I have attached the AnyRail file of my attic layout.

I understand that our spaces are greatly different, but I though perhaps the small loop and the narrow part against the wall might

be of some design help.  The AnyRail format is attached separately at the bottom in case you get a AnyRail Reader.

 

.

read the last paragraph on page 1 - if it is an older 1122 the swivel rail can rock and cause a momentary short. That would kick the E-unit into neutral.

Check the swivel rail for tightness.

 

By the way, I like the shade of green that you used. I didn't know what to expect. It looks earthen enough. Imagine a little brown dabbled in when wet.

That’s a beautiful layout sir. Love the scenery. Is there a tutorial video or book you learned from?...or just trial and error?

These are 1121 switches, there is no auto derailment function. You can make them into one by using lockons and insulated rails, but I didn’t do that. I did check the swivel rail for connection issues by wiggling it by hand with the engine on there, and by a continuity check with the meter.

Asymair95 posted:

These are 1121 switches, there is no auto derailment function. You can make them into one by using lockons and insulated rails, but I didn’t do that. I did check the swivel rail for connection issues by wiggling it by hand with the engine on there, and by a continuity check with the meter.

Ok, still the same - a loose pivot rail or insulating washer can cause a short. Also, the controller causes a momentary short to the controller lamp when moving a lever. Also check if the engine roller is touching the center and pivot rail when it passes that point. 

Service info

Add find an 1122 to the shopping list to replace this.

Thanks so much for any comments related to the Crocodile Trains Store layout.  

I had visited a wonderful layout owned by Gary Patterson of the Flower City Tinplate Trackers, a club to which I belong.

His dramatic western toned scenes inspired me to want something of that nature but in a more green tone.  

The mastermind of my layout beyond initial conception and wish list is a master builder named Al Judy whom without his help my railroad would not exist in it's present form.  I have asked Al about how he came by his knowledge and he said it was basically the 30 to 50  years of building layouts professionally that allowed my layout to be built by 3 of us at this level of detail in 30 working days.  My credit was to truly understand my own limitations from having built numerous amateur level layouts and having the wisdom to tear down my existing USA layout which was a 12x25 map of the USA with numerous trains running around it on 3 levels, and start over from scratch.  I spent a year planning the new layout and once we had a plan in place, tore down the old and started the built the new one about this time last year.  I was adamant about wanting lots of yellow on the layout, and a company from California whose name I forget but can locate,  along with tress made by Bill Stroup from PA and and JTT trees, and numerous Woodland Scenics products, are what went into the final result.

I documented the build and here is a link to pictures of our efforts.  I think there is something that might be gained from the pictures as far as construction techniques. 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/r2F5QXjtTuZRo2qb7

With all of the responses I have lost track of where you are in you attic layout planning, but please let me know if I can help in any way.

Mike

Painting is coming to an end soon. I am waiting on my log loader to come before I paint the left side, then things will progress a little quicker. 

Lionel suggested a power lock on on each leg of a turnout (3) rather than pass power through them. Pin connections feed the short turnout rails better than the internals. I think turnout rails are thinner steel too, hard to say (Less reinforced than most lionel rail webbing/footing at the least) I bus around mine. A drop out without coil action is power loss from a short or loss of connection, likely the center rail since you don't have pins, therefore likely a better common connection. I didn't love the dark tab look and corrosion on the triangle trace. Bad connections...to acting like a diode...dark metal worries me I think it's possible, if too narrowly gauged, the back of some wheels could be brushing the pivot too. Tape can stop it. (Maybe thick enamel) I had a bunch of posts fail and forget what made it, lol.. lets see....roller spacing can be a bad match Really rolling it thru by hand as needed to recreate the drop and guessing what to try based on exact roller postion is what I'd try. Small bits of electrical tape here and there on the suspect areas may be needed to stop a shorting roller or wheel. (It lasts longer than you would expect too, even if it diagnostics vs the end solution.

Lionel suggested a power lock on on each leg of a turnout (3) rather than pass power through them. Pin connections feed the short turnout rails better than the internals. I think turnout rails are thinner steel too, hard to say (Less reinforced than most lionel rail webbing/footing at the least) I bus around mine. A drop out without coil action is power loss from a short or loss of connection, likely the center rail since you don't have pins, therefore likely a better common connection. I didn't love the dark tab look and corrosion on the triangle trace. Bad connections...to acting like a diode...dark metal worries me I think it's possible, if too narrowly gauged, the back of some wheels could be brushing the pivot too. Tape can stop it. (Maybe thick enamel) I had a bunch of posts fail and forget what made it, lol.. lets see....roller spacing can be a bad match Really rolling it thru by hand as needed to recreate the drop and guessing what to try based on exact roller postion is what I'd try. Small bits of electrical tape here and there on the suspect areas may be needed to stop a shorting roller or wheel. (It lasts longer than you would expect too, even if it diagnostics vs the end solution.)

Asymair95 posted:

Painting is coming to an end soon. I am waiting on my log loader to come before I paint the left side, then things will progress a little quicker. 

 

This is looking really good. You have a good eye. Are there any family members living that would remember the old layouts like you do? Your efforts would probably bring tears to their eyes and fond memories.

I have an aunt in her mid-eighties whose husband put up a classic '50's style layout every Christmas. Even though my layout is modern, the trains for Christmas stirred some fond memories for her. The bad news that she gave all of the stuff to another relative that has never set it up in over 20 years.

Will try the hand rolling through the switch to see if the roller is shorting. That may have to wait till next Winter though. I only have about two and a half, or three months of work left up here before the weather changes and I need to move on to Spring/Summer priorities.  Going to try and get all the accessories wired and running, track secured, tunnel built, lighting in and wired, etc. Next Winter will be the heavy scenery work.

Moonman,

My Dad is still around and lives close. He has seen my progress, but not since painting. I’m sure he will like it.

I am going to start building some train display shelving soon. I have some plywood already from another project, and a few 1x4 pine boards. Was thinking of just building a box, laying the plywood inside, and adding cross shelves about 5” apart. Add some paint...and viola.

Received another goodie box in the mail, but it doesn’t work. The transformer grounds out as soon as power is applied. Have a short somplace.

Going to have a milk platform on the o27 line, and the o31 line...if I can get this car fixed anyway.

Good news...milk car is fixed and working again! Will install the platform and 6019 track tomorrow.

Got a few things done tonight.

Had to change the track and roadbed a bit to fit the 164 log loader between them. Fits good and operates well, and there is still room for the ice loader, and lumber mill.

This log loader is in amazing shape. I can’t tell if it is an original, or just a very well done restoration. In either case, it works well and will be a working piece on my railroad.

Put in the end wall where the tunnel will be. 

Tomorrow night I hope to finish the painting.

I love this attic layout.  There are lots of great operational possibilities and I like the side aisles., and multi-levels.  I see lots of great accessory options creating a fantastic classic layout.  Bravo!

 

Mike

Thank you Mike. 

Congratulations for beginning your grand adventure.  First, a suggestion ... take lots of pix along the way and make photo albums to capture the magic moments. Include your kids in the shots. Years from now, those images will be the basis for recall of great memories. 

Gleanings from my layout experience ...
My home L-shaped layout is located in an at-the-rear addition to our house. That space was previously the home office of the former home owner - a draftsman. The width of the room established the size limit for the layout. I wanted walk-around aisles for access to the platforms from all sides although the Goddess of Geometry (in collusion with Jenny Craig) advised otherwise. With 20/20 hindsight, they were both right. The perimeter aisles are only 20 inches wide -- a great incentive for me to mind my midriff!  

The platforms are 36-inch wide hollow-core doors with add-on pieces spliced onto them to make 46-inch wide platforms which I subsequently covered with green patio carpeting.  That platform width would accommodate O42-inch curves and switches. I used small C-clamps to bind the platforms together - no bolts or screws - and to facilitate taking it apart someday. The platforms are supported by SKIL plastic and HOME DEPOT metal sawhorses held in position with quarter-round molding as guides glued and screwed to the undersides. Stout, and firmly in place.

The "Lionel Orange" painted wood fascia boards hold all accessory control buttons - convenient for young operators. The under-platform wiring is dressed in place by nylon cable clips to avoid the look of "an explosion in a spaghetti factory." However, as track wiring, accessories, lighted buildings, and other goodies appeared later on, the wiring tended to get messy despite using many terminal strips and some wiring blocks. At the outset, I should have installed wire raceways to group associated wires together and applied wire numbers.

I used ANYRAIL Track Planning Software to create the track plan. It was quickly apparent that the base platform would not contain all the buildings I wanted to display, so I added an upper level to accommodate 35 Dept 56 lighted porcelain NORTH POLE VILLAGE buildings and three DC-only trolley lines with bump-and-go holiday-theme trolleys.

I designed the layout to be a "slightly grown-up version" of the plywood and track "Plain Jane" my dad built for me in the mid-1950s in the basement of our house.  Accordingly, I didn't intend to add gee whiz scenic effects to this 21st century layout -- sculpted mountains and tunnels, fields and streams, rocky waterfalls, suburban streets and lawns, etc. Pre-built buildings, people figures, 1950s automobiles, and operating accessories resting on green patio carpeting are enough for me; which is a polite way for me to confess I'm "scenery challenged." 

Layout photos and track layout diagrams attached.

Carry on.  Make Joshua Lionel Cowan proud.

Mike Mottler
mottlerm@gmail.com

Took a breather from the layout to build a nice set of display shelves. Total cost was about $60. Dimensions of the cabinet 30” x 80”. Each shelf should hold three to four cars or a couple of engines.

On a different topic, I’m thinking of adding a 497 coaling station to the layout. I believe I have room if I juggle things around a little bit. My plan is to make a small mining area and use the 497 for loading gravel. 

You guys that have 497’s do you like them?

Got some more painting done on the layout, almost done now.  Just some small touch up left to do. 

Also got the mountain pass carved and painted.

Next I guess I need to screw down the track. I’m still undecided on the 497, decisions, decisions.

I don't over do it with screws. The curves get pushed by the engines, so perhaps one per track. The straights, where you feel it or none except on the adjoining track to the switches to pin those down and NONE in the switches.

Just snug the track screws. You are not fastening lumber together. 

The rock piece turned out well. 

You have accomplished a lot in a short time. Almost at the fun part - Bringing the layout alive with details, buildings and such. Oh and trains.

I agree with pinning to foam. I removed the majority that went into the wood and used shorter ones to pin mine to the foam only. Each screw into the wood increases the noise transmitted into the wood, which then becomes amplified off the bottom of the layout, echoing in between the underside, floor, and wall. Why no fasters in the switches?

O31 loop of track is screwed down. I only screwed into the cork roadbed and maybe a 1/4” of the foam board. I put more screws in since it was only going into the roadbed and not wood. Took a test run and she runs a bit smoother as I think the pin connections are tighter now. Noise level is still the same, no change there. 

I got the shelving units installed. Look and function great, can’t wait to get the fleet on display.

Think I’m going to pass on the coaling station. There’s just not much room left, and it really doesn’t fit the logging theme of the layout. Plus, the Commander has been calling me on the carpet about train room expenditures. Need to cool it for awhile.

Adriatic posted:

I agree with pinning to foam. I removed the majority that went into the wood and used shorter ones to pin mine to the foam only. Each screw into the wood increases the noise transmitted into the wood, which then becomes amplified off the bottom of the layout, echoing in between the underside, floor, and wall. Why no fasters in the switches?

The screw story about frequency transmission is bogus. While one could perhaps theoretically prove that there is some transmission, it is not a major factor of a noisy train layout. I love how everyone cherishes the myth. Use 3/4 ply and cork roadbed - quiet. 

Why fasteners in the switch when three tracks adjacent are screwed down at the tie. Screwing the switch down can cause deformation or stress on the base and reduce the operational smoothness. 

I have found that to be true with my 1121 switches. They are very flimsy and any flexing/distortion of the base tends to bind the swivel rail. I don’t have any experience with o22 switches, but they seem quite robust.

  Sorry, it's not a myth to me, but a trial and error experience.

  And to continue on such a steadfast path is basically calling me a liar Moonman, not to mention the science behind it all, at least to some degree. 

  Maybe our circumstances have not been the same?

   Maybe our hearing ranges differ?

  Maybe the early morning words were just poorly chosen; but it comes across as accusational more than opinonated. A myth implies a lie. (Maybe I didn't claim it as experience well enough?)

   I have Aspergers and couldn't write ANY fiction until I was a teen, and I still have trouble with it. I was nearly held back in school bacause of it, despite having an IQ the Feds wanted tested for think tank schooing (really I learned to plager groups of other stories and recombine them well enough to please/fool the teachers)    I often tick folks off a lot because I don't think to lie, or do it so poorly I that I greatly offend them. I make acquaintances easy, but keeping friends can be hard, mostly because of lack of NT "filters" when I talk.

I would sugest the O.P. try without and then with a few, or in two similarly constructed areas to decide what works best for themselves.

   I can recall the difference when we added them to GG track in 76, and since then I had let someone else convince me there was no big difference.      As time washed my sureness of my first experience away, all was fine and I screwed every piece down.  But the first time I pulled the screws off my present layout  to add a siding and the noise was not as prevelent.... I could suddenly hear the tv in the next room. All screws except the corners came out. With no load, or a dozen cars, the engine being on the curves over the screws is when it is loudest UNDER the table.  The sound makes it out of there no problem.  

  I suppose there is a chance at some natural sound cancelation when top sound meets bottom, but more likely is they combine to be fuller and louder. 

 Other noise to be added is reflective off the top. The more soft ground cover you use the quieter it is coming from the top too as this absorbs vs reflects.  I noticed that when I first used fleece in the center for temp ground cover. I didn't really want to remove it but did as sparks near fleece really scared me.  Later, I found a green fleece that was kind of hard to burn. That went on my tiny Christmas loop in my room. (at 30 inches square with 3/4" solid wood top, it does not have any drumming issues from screws like the big ones.

  I'd guess up to 8db difference with everything going.  Measuring active and ambient sound levels was part of my employment for two jobs and helping build two sound studios.  I also built car audio for friends hitting up to 104db.   At one job once a week things had to be measured and recorded. Another it was near daily db checks of PA systems and area static ambiances.  I got pretty good at winging numerical estimation between 60-80db. Louder or quieter is pretty easy with a comparison sound like a tv, esecially when you've done it to feed yourself 

   I can also hear 19khz pretty well which always amazes doctors when I get hearing tests. I've taken to warning them the equipment is likely fine before we begin.  I do have some trouble with soft low frequency voices, but never tried to pinpoint the frequency, it's pretty deep though. 

  Maybe it is the thickness of your tabletops? Maybe you are taller and underlayout noise doesn't affect as much? Maybe you have had better skirting preventing you from noticing?

   I also recall lots of folks saying there is no difference between Fastrack and tubular, etc..   Some folk can't hear it, but there is a difference.  It seems it may be more of a frequency difference than total volume change (Thats the test I'd really like my equipment back for)

  On screwing down turnouts, mine are midway along my straights, I corraled those turnouts and leave the straights bare, so I guess it's just a different means to the same end. An advantage is I can pull one turnout screw and remove it easily on my table layout.. but on the ceiling, the turnouts actually are too close to edge and I used the track to hold the turnout. Disadvantage is covering the screw heads with lichen. The yard lead has one screw, two turnouts & track floats free... oh, the stubs have one under the bumpers...3 total.  I was just curious if there was a reason I hadn't considered. 

The 022 switches are stable and don’t really flex, however issues can arise from screwing then down too tightly. You can inadvertently create a short circuit by squeezing the metal bottom plate (which is grounded through the outside rails) enough to where it touches the connecting strip of the hot center rails. 

Some 022 switches have a card stock like material as insulator. I’m not sure if the card stock was factory or an aftermarket addition. 

I just remember being advised to let the switches ‘float’, no nails for HO.  So I have the same philosophy for O Gauge.

Bit more progress.

Received my new to me 282 Gantry crane in the mail today.  Needs new wiring, but everything else looks to be in great shape. Wasted no time installing it in its new home.

Got all the track in the town area screwed down tonight. Used a bit more screws because of all the twisty turns. Also added some road striping .

Tomorrow I will screw down the last of the o27 track on the mainline, which means all track will be secure at that point...yay.

Had a fun night with the kids unpacking the trains out of their tissue paper and boxes and setting them up on the display shelf. My four year old and I unpacked, and my eight year old set them out on the shelves the way he wanted. Was lots of fun looking and playing with Great Grandpas trains. My four year old was beside himself with excitement...so much so, that we had a hard time getting him calmed down for bed.

Been busy wiring for the last few nights. Have made steady progress.

Log loader and lumber mill wired and working flawlessly. My four year asked if the logs are really being cut inside the mill...of course I said, yes...lol.

Log loader and milk car platform wired up and running. The platform may still move somewhere else, not sure yet. 450 signal is tonight’s project. Going to put the red and green lights on their own push button switches for the kids to play with. Off in the corner you can see the painted and weathered mountain pass installed.

I wired these two crossing signals and the gate on one insulated track section. They all work great, although there is no flasher on the signals. Checked out some threads on here and it seems like drama to get them to do that. Maybe some point down the road. I also started placing interior lighting for the buildings out on their respective home sites.  I also moved the ice station to this side of the layout to reduce congestion on the other side. It is wired up and working great.

Last night saw the last of the track screwed down, everything is secured now.

The trains on the shelves look great!  So do the accessories.  Congratulations 

Asymair95 posted:

 My four year old was beside himself with excitement...so much so, that we had a hard time getting him calmed down for bed.

Asymair95 posted:

My four year asked if the logs are really being cut inside the mill...of course I said, yes...lol.

 

Haha! Sounds like you are doing it right!

Great pictures and updates.  The shelves look great and the yellow strip on the road really makes it pop!

I don't mind wiring, I actually think it's fun.  However, it can be slow and you don't get the satisfaction of seeing it, only the results of it - which is still nice.  

Got all the lighting buss wires run last night all around the layout. Can start wiring up building lighting now.

Also finished wiring up the last of the operating accessories.

The operating baggage terminal wired up and running. Behind it you can see the news stand too. I excavated the foam board under the news stand so it would fit flush with the ground. Works great, and the kids love it.

On a side note, I started having derailment issues with a few of the switches. Turns out they don’t like to have track screwed down too close to them. Removed the screws and nails of the connecting track sections on all three sides and the problem went away. Lesson learned.

The flag man is all wired up on an insulated section of track. Works great, but has problems closing all the way sometimes. Is there a specific lube point on these? I didn’t see any screws to take it apart for service.

Also, my insulated track sections don’t work very well with lighter cars, like say a flat bed car or something light like that. Boxcars and such are fine. Is this the nature of the beast?...or do I have a problem?

ASYMAIR 95: I've enjoyed following your progress, and, Happy Birthday, too!

Rusty

My screws aren't into wood on the table, and on the ceiling there's no downward pressure either. It's just corralled by 3 screws. The switch can float, but is very limited. 

The nature of the beast. Pressure is the largest factor on a low resistance connection. A point under X (?) pounds of pressure can equal a square inch of "rubbing pressure"

But really only the lead wheels are the concern.  Everything else is wasted effort, plastc wheels could be run. The points must be in place before those lead wheels get there, thats it. So really clean front wheels, the axle to wheel/truck contact, and contact rails. Running  though them a whole bunch might help some.  

For switching, you are kinda supposed to throw the points yourself, at least sometimes.  Lionel suggested cleaning wheels and rails of course, but also to  add a stronger pilot truck spring if you can (more downward pressure).

If you have a problem child, you might try soldering connections on the contact rails circuit that are just pressure fits at the moment to reduce all resistance possiblities except wheels. (soldering at tabs,traces,& stationary rivets, etc).   

A pressure contactor could be a workaround for one as well as setting up a 2nd isolated rail on plain track to compliment those on the turnout. 

Asymair95 posted:

On a side note, I started having derailment issues with a few of the switches. Turns out they don’t like to have track screwed down too close to them. Removed the screws and nails of the connecting track sections on all three sides and the problem went away. Lesson learned.

Each layout is different. One just "tunes" it to operate smoothly.

The flag man is all wired up on an insulated section of track. Works great, but has problems closing all the way sometimes. Is there a specific lube point on these? I didn’t see any screws to take it apart for service.

Go to the Olsen's service documents. First page is attached. The top right describes the common issues for sluggish operation. I believe there are tabs on the bottom that hold the shed on to the base. Bend those straight carefully with a thin flat screwdriver inserted to the tab protrusions and lift up. Re-bend by putting the blade edge on the seam and rock the screwdriver to bend close.

Page 1 is attached

Also, my insulated track sections don’t work very well with lighter cars, like say a flat bed car or something light like that. Boxcars and such are fine. Is this the nature of the beast?...or do I have a problem?

Clean wheels always help, but, yes, the lighter weight could reduce contact with the rail. Hide some fishing weights or auto wheel weights on the light cars. Test the weight theory by placing something on the car to make it a little heavier. I am assuming that you have all postwar metal equipment and not the plastic trucks of the MPC era.

I love to hear that the children are getting excited as you continue to bring the layout alive. Winter is still with us - keep at it!

Lots of wiring still. Got all the street lights wired.

Tonight I will wire in the work lights for the sidings.

Has not been much visible progress recently, so I haven’t posted anything. The past few days I started building the tunnel.

The main portal is a woodland scenic product that comes as a plain white plaster and you need to paint. The retaining  walls are foamboard I carved and painted. This was my first attempt at anything like this, but I was pleasantly surprised.

I have also continued with wiring lighting.

I got the 450 signal wired up. I used a three position toggle for each side so the kids and I can change it from red to green.

Got all three block signals wired up. The green light is on a switch so the kids can control it. The red light is on a section of insulated track for each signal.

All yard lighting is wired up. Each switch controls two lights. The kids like that there are lots and lots of switches for them to play with.

Finished up the tunnel tonight. When the paint dries I will put some trees in. It came out much better than I anticipated.

Filled out the basic form of the mountain with scrap foam pieces, then glued it down. Once dry, I put a thin layer of expanding foam on top and laid the quilt batting into it.

Dabbed some paint on. Looks wonderful, and I haven’t even added ground cover yet.

All things considered, looks pretty good. 

That has the fifties look to  it. I was wondering how the shape was going happen. Now, I know.

Which spray foam did you use - the low expansion type? 

Can the whole structure be lifted off of the table ?

Wow! Seriously fantastic work! The retaining walls are great

Not sure of the foam, it was “Great Stuff” in the red can. Works really well because it cures rapidly and allows you to form ridges and valleys as it sets up.

I was going to make it lift off, but it’s very short and accessible so I can just stick my arm in there. There’s not much holding it down, just a few drops of hot glue. If I had to take it off I’m sure it wouldn’t be a major headache.

Tonight it’s back to work on the lighting. So many wires...ugggh.

 I'm not sure you can mess up foam stone   I dry brushed and rubbed tiny bits & streaks of every color in the rainbow; my metalics too, and it just adds to it.

Nice texture and the overall paint is prefect Mr. Angelo

One detail....Electric only? No smoke soot at the portal arch apex?

Thanks. I built a really large 2 piece mountain with a frame and screen and used Great Stuff that had to be really thick. It took days to dry. Then, it was a bear to carve.

Good idea to use filler stuff. The fabric made for a quick surface like an eroded hill. I was going for the jagged rock look.

I also discovered Loctite's recent foam filler product. It expands less with a finer texture. 

Again, a good result and I am always interested in different techniques.

I forgot to mention - I like the 317 bridges - I bought a couple in the same condition - I just lightly steel wooled the big pieces of rust. They look great, weathered and aged in that condition. 

Thank you. Wish I could take credit, but I learned the technique from a guy on YouTube.  Easiest part was spraying the foam and laying the batting in it. When it was dry I cut it to fit and painted it. 

The bridges were left exactly how I received them from the eBay sellers. The crustier, the better. The two bridges are different, one is a 317, not sure about the other. It has bent over tabs holding everything together, where the other bridge is spot welded everywhere. 

Had a nice run session with the kids and their friends. Fun was had by all.

Looks like you had a gang of interested kids!  Looks great!

Nicely done, you've made quick work of the layout!  It would be great to see a video of the trains as the run around the layout.  Glad to see you all enjoying it!

Just catching up on your progress. Everything looks great. The mountain came out perfect.

Keep up the good work- looks like the kids are having fun too.

I have always liked the city cloverleaf section of the layout.  I made that section in SCARM and a video of the simulation. (sorry about the quality, I don't have a video tuner card, just a screen video)

It would at least a minute and 20 seconds to traverse the entire loop one time at a medium speed.

Cool section of layout! 

caution: keep the train short as I bit my own tail the on the first try. The conductor in the caboose was really upset when the engine crunched the car in front of it. 

Thanks guys. The kids really had a blast. My two kids see the trains all the time, but their two friends had never seen anything like this before...they were astonished. Even their Mom was impressed with how well it held their attention, as they are hard to please I guess. They really liked all the buttons along the edge, and the logging accessories. Particularly the saw mill, I told them their was a real saw inside cutting the wood...lol...they were impressed.

I will get a video of all the trains running soon. I’m working on a wiring problem in one of the block signals at the moment. Think one of the ground wires has a bad connection. I made a short video of the 2354 running on the elevated line a few days ago.

https://youtu.be/bm-HF4da1Io

I like the town section too Moonman. It definitely requires your attention though. I had a Gomez Adams accident when several cars uncoupled on one of the four way sections and with the reduced drag the engine sped up around the cloverleaf and T boned the line of cars. It was spectacular! I thought I was going to have issues with derailments and such because of all the turns and switches, but it really hasn’t been bad.

I’m currently looking for a 362 barrel loader accessory, and a cattle corral for the farm. Also want a control tower for the airport. It never ends...does it...lol.

 

Question: I find most of my engines are happiest running around 10-11 volts. This gives me a nice scale(ish) speed and maintains enough momentum to get around the 180 degree turns. This sound right to everyone?

Yep. That is actually a nice voltage. (I forget, did you check those throttle rollers? Don't delay that and recheck at times. Damage is not really reversible.) It can vary from 9v to about 18v on open frame motors. (i.e. amps can come into play too, one 1033 wont run two of my engines loaded at full throttle 15v aprx 5a max. but the same trains run fine at 12-13v on the higher amps output of the KW or Z.) (they can each pull a 5.75a peak on start up or any heavy throttle change) I have half a dozen that can handle the full throttle of a 1033 (kid proof ), but everything I have will roll in the curves with the "big dogs" (including the AF 18b). (for my lone 1032, increase it to four that won't go at full throttle (3.75-4a?))

Asymair95 posted:

Thanks guys. The kids really had a blast. My two kids see the trains all the time, but their two friends had never seen anything like this before...they were astonished. Even their Mom was impressed with how well it held their attention, as they are hard to please I guess. They really liked all the buttons along the edge, and the logging accessories. Particularly the saw mill, I told them their was a real saw inside cutting the wood...lol...they were impressed.

I will get a video of all the trains running soon. I’m working on a wiring problem in one of the block signals at the moment. Think one of the ground wires has a bad connection. I made a short video of the 2354 running on the elevated line a few days ago.

https://youtu.be/bm-HF4da1Io

I like the town section too Moonman. It definitely requires your attention though. I had a Gomez Adams accident when several cars uncoupled on one of the four way sections and with the reduced drag the engine sped up around the cloverleaf and T boned the line of cars. It was spectacular! I thought I was going to have issues with derailments and such because of all the turns and switches, but it really hasn’t been bad.

I’m currently looking for a 362 barrel loader accessory, and a cattle corral for the farm. Also want a control tower for the airport. It never ends...does it...lol.

 

Thanks for the video - nice layout - you efforts are rewarded!  Gomez didn't have accidents  but, I get it

Your layout looks good, and the NYC F3 set looks great running effortlessly across your track!  We all have accidents, except Gomez.  

I am very impressed with how quickly you got your layout together. Love the track plan and I'm jealous of all that space. Good job.

You've inspired me to work on my attic layout again. I've done little to it in the last 2 years.