Help Please: Voltage/Current problem through tracks

Well, on the postwar transformer (if that's meant) I was using a used 1033's (90 watts) to power a test track a couple of weeks ago, getting an uncertain bell instead of horn in a newer electronic sound board Geep. So I dug out my childhood 1033 of known ancestry and had no problem.  I wrote the incident off to a serviced rectifier replaced in opposite to normal polarity or just at end of life... I think that type of rectifier only had an expected life of about 50 years anyway.

I didn't open it to confirm.  Got the Geep's electronics to show as working, my goal, and moved on.   Life is too short.  PS-- I was testing the Geep because it had been on a York test track which could not activate it's horn, and was worrying that it's electronics may have been subjected briefly to excessive DC, vs instructions "do not run on DC."  FYI FWIW.

The late 90s Z is more of a puzzle.  It really doesn't have a lot of parts compared to a computer so the 7-years to trouble guide doesn't really apply.

Good luck, Frank

Do you have a voltmeter (or multimeter) you can use for some testing?

Hello Frank, I had some old posts on an old computer that I had copied from here. I believe it was some early advice on running DCS from you? I see you have been a member for a long time here!

JTrains posted:

Do you have a voltmeter (or multimeter) you can use for some testing?

I do have a voltmeter stashed somewhere or I could easily borrow one.    What ends should I be touching and what should the reading be?

Any other possible thoughts?

If you use the RW, how do things act?  I have both a post war ZW and an RW.

KenH75 posted:

Any other possible thoughts?

Have you tried reversing the polarity at the lockon? I.E. switch the #1 wire to #2 and vise-versa? See if that helps with the 2671WX, anyways.

Since using the post war rw for the 2671wx, I'm not going to focus too much on that.   Meaning, using the rw for the 763Berk/2671wx works fine.  Using the rw for the vandy, same issues as the ZW... electrocoupler remains engaged.  The electrocoupler will also engage regardless of being ir tethered to the engine.  

So, ZW providing power to Vandy, electocoupler engages.

ZW providing power to 2671wx, constant whistle.

RW to vandy, electrocoupler engages.

RW to 2671wx, no issues.

Reversing wires at lock-on, yes, I have tried this.  Same electrocoupler issue and I lose rail sounds.

I greatly appreciate all of you trying to help.  It means a lot and if I manage to eventually get it working, the smiles on my kids faces will be priceless.  Please keep the suggestions coming.

Based on your info, my thoughts are:

1) There's a problem in the ZW, a DC offset is being applied to the track.

2) The "Vandy" has a defect, it could be isolated to the coupler wiring.

Your chasing more than one problem at the same time.

Dave

Dtrainmaster posted:

Based on your info, my thoughts are:

1) There's a problem in the ZW, a DC offset is being applied to the track.

2) The "Vandy" has a defect, it could be isolated to the coupler wiring.

Your chasing more than one problem at the same time.

Dave

Since it's one of the all enclosed type ZW's (late 90s) am I looking at needing something new or is it fixable?   Or is it something in the bricks and not even the transformer itself?

Chasing coupler wiring sounds like it could be easy.

Really wish there were shops close but there's nothing around Bentonville AR.  Used to be a shop in Fayetteville but he doesn't do much work on newer pieces... I think there's someone in Joplin MO (an hour away) and Springfield MO (2 hours and an easy 2 week wait to even get it looked at).   Just ugh.

KenH75 posted:

JTrains posted:

Do you have a voltmeter (or multimeter) you can use for some testing?

I do have a voltmeter stashed somewhere or I could easily borrow one.    What ends should I be touching and what should the reading be?

Good deal.  I agree with DTRAINMASTER that you have (at least) two distinct problems.  Let's try and identify one at a time - starting with the (likely) easier, the KW and the 2671WX.

Set your voltmeter to measure "DC" (not AC), turn on power to the track with the tender.  It should, per your description, begin whistling.  Place one voltmeter probe on an outside rail, another on the center rail.  What does it read?  It should read 0V - but will probably read something else.

Now do the same thing, only this time actuate the whistle on the KW - what does the voltmeter now read?

JTrains posted:

KenH75 posted:

JTrains posted:

Do you have a voltmeter (or multimeter) you can use for some testing?

I do have a voltmeter stashed somewhere or I could easily borrow one.    What ends should I be touching and what should the reading be?

Good deal.  I agree with DTRAINMASTER that you have (at least) two distinct problems.  Let's try and identify one at a time - starting with the (likely) easier, the KW and the 2671WX.

Set your voltmeter to measure "DC" (not AC), turn on power to the track with the tender.  It should, per your description, begin whistling.  Place one voltmeter probe on an outside rail, another on the center rail.  What does it read?  It should read 0V - but will probably read something else.

Now do the same thing, only this time actuate the whistle on the KW - what does the voltmeter now read?

Appreciate the input!  Will give that a try tomorrow after work and get back with the results.  Many many thanks!

You can get a look inside the ZW by removing the 4 screws that you see on the top and slide/lift the cover up. Unplug the bricks before opening it.

Which output are you using for the track?

Try connecting to the D/U - C/U handle and test.

After you remove the cover, gently move the handles and observe the pots bracket. If you didn't have it serviced through the years, the plastic bracket can break. There is a metal replacement.

Press the whistle button and observe for any physical damage. perhaps a physical problem left the whistle control in the on position.

If the D/U C/U side is ok and no physical problems are observed, then it's in the electronics of the A/U B/U side whistle control.

here's a parts breakdown -

I concur that looking at the coil coupler in the engine is a candidate and or simultaneous problem.

Harbor Freight has inexpensive digital multimeters that will serve you well for this troubleshooting adventure.

Silly question...  will this one work and what setting should I select?

I think that will serve you well. make sure it has fresh batteries.

"Silly question...  will this one work and what setting should I select?"

If your doing JTRAINS test: 20Vdc.
It will read a  + or - voltage if DC is present. If you switch the test leads, the polarity of the reading will change.
If the DC is already there, pressing the Whistle button should not change the reading by much, or at all.

Ok, let me know if this link doesn't work

https://drive.google.com/open?...3SaxybWdZWWN4TXV5bUk

Should be 3 videos

1214 - rw trainmaster

1212 - zw 

1210 - zw

you can hear me turn the blocks on and see the numbers jump on the ZW.  You should also see the polarity reverse (pos to neg) when I engage the whistle.  It drops to 0 when I hold direction down.  If that link doesn't take people to 3 vids, I'll just get links for the vids.

here's the videos - the link worked

Next take the same meter settings and test at the ZW terminals. Also, take the engines off of the track to isolate a train problem from a transformer problem.

try it with no throttle and the whistle wheel rotation and no rotation.

You definitely have DC on the ZW postwar celebration series transformer's tracks.

OK,

I just checked my ZW-C, it's a later model. When you rotate the Whistle forward gently you should feel some spring tension. When it contacts the Whistle switch, you can hear an audible click on and then a click off when it's released.

Do both switches sound good when you move the wheel?

I am thinking a whistle switch failed in the on position.

It's item 48 in the parts link. With the cover off, you should see an orange wire and a gray wire connected to it.

let's hope it's not a board or something more complex.

Thank you Carl!  I'll test those tonight when I get home from work.

The whistle switches I can say are both good.   They both have that spring feel to them.  The right controller arm though for A-U is busted.  Been that way for 3 years now.  It is loose and can "click" past where it should stop.  There have been times I turn it off and it's not off and I have to push the arm all the way forward to catch the right spot and bring it back.  I found a bunch of related posts last year about it but apparently that repair and part was for older ZWs.  I was told by the one shop around here and many at a train show "buy a new transformer".  That the way Lionel made this one you can't get to the plate that needs replacing.  I'm not sure if that would be the culprit since it ran fine last year.  Nor do I understand how the A-U side would effect the D-U.  I'll gladly take a vid tonight to better explain the above.

Again, thank you for all the help and input!  I'll report back tonight after further testing.

Yep, Lionel has the left bracket, but not the right. There are some places that you could contact that may have that part. For now, let's focus on the whistle DC output or the source of the DC problem.

I am talking about the whistle/direction lever, not the throttle handle for feel and switch sounds.

You would see it on both outputs because of the U being tied together. You may have to take the cover off and test both switches with no power on in OHMS mode for continuity.

If you have a browser on the phone, you can upload the video to this thread directly from the phone. Use the add attachments option.

Let me know if I'm missing anything or didn't do something suggested above.  Engines off track.  Tenders still on.  Multimeter connected to ZW.  And then watch the vids

Also, I took a vid of what the one handle is doing.  I'm about to open the top but in the mean time, here's some video.

And since you all are helping, what's a train forum without trains?

Last two videos...  top of ZW open.  Everything looks good except the AU arm.

hey, I don't have time now, but the air whistle sound like it needs oil and may have an electrical issue. Remove that from the track and check your readings.

I assume the railsounds tender has the electrocoupler in question. Remove that from track also. and check the readings.

You want to start with a nothing on the rails and confirm that the transformer is doing what it's supposed to do.  

I'll check in later the pm.

Ok, here we go... more videos with nothing on the track.  First AU on the track then AU at terminal.  Then DU on track then DU on terminal turning both bricks on.  You should hear the clicking of the brick switch.

On another note, I've taken apart the 736 but never the 2671.  So, think I can just find something on YouTube or google searching 2671wx like I did for the 736?

EDIT: apparently the videos did not attach properly.  That really stinks!

here's a link to the service documents. A little 3-in-1 or sewing machine oil will make it happy. it looks like two screws at the rear to remove the shell.

2671w

The whistle a 175

So, what were the readings of transformer only - any DC voltage present?

Link the videos as you did before. I could view them. Don't worry about figuring out posting them here. Let's find the culprit.

Ok... vids recorded again and will edit this and upload at work.  Only did connected to the track because the numbers were the same at the terminal.  Thank you again for the help and for the maintenance link.

No problem. Did you get any DC voltage from transformer only?

What you see here is exactly what I got from the transformer only as well... no trains on tracks.  None at all... no engines/tenders/regular/passenger with lights/caboose with lights... nada

DU first then AU

One discrepancy from last night.  When testing DU, having both bricks on read around 40, not 8.  You'll see it at 40 right before I shut them off.  Also, when sliding towards "direction" it goes to -40... I noticed "direction" will take it to the negative of what it is when just being powered.

I "think" the answer is yes 

I am not sure where to go from here.

The .0X voltages I get on mine. I get 1.5vDC or slightly more with whistle with the handles at maximum throttle. I couldn't get a direction reading because I have all legacy or LionChief on the tracks. I tested on the LionChief track and got nothing or it just went to zero. I know there should be something there in -DC.

Sorry to ask again, but if you put the whistle tender on a ZW track, does it constantly whistle with throttle voltage?

Are the bricks plugged into A and C with a jumper on B & D?  I don't know that it would cause a problem, just asking.

Bricks are plugged in A and D, no jumper in B or C.  Never had a jumper.

Yes, the tender whistles with throttle voltage.   Even just sitting still and no engine on the track.

Moonman said A & C, jumper B & D.   Take a picture of the transformer showing your connections for him.

Here you go... back of the zw

IT'S THE AU ARM!!!!!!   Something about how loose it is or whatever is broken is what is sending the signal!   I think....

It was running and then "pop".  This is frustrating...  very very frustrating.  Something is sending an "unwanted" signal or current to the tracks....

It's pretty obvious that the gears connecting the handle to the potentiometer are jumping out of sink with each other. Disconnect power and begin dissecting that right side if you feel capable. You may be able to epoxy the broken part (bracket ?) until a replacement can be found. Carl (Moonman) knows more about how the pieces fit together inside.

I think you need to get the mechanicals fixed before pursuing the electrical problem any further.

In case you don't have it:  ZW Manual 

FWIW, I wouldn't continue running the tender with the coupler problem, it could possibly increase the damage. Get the shell off and check the wiring, it's probably the easier one to fix.

Dave

KenH75 posted:

Here you go... back of the zw

Sorry, the jumpers are those plugs or blanks next to the brick connectors. They pull out. Yes, first fix the brick connection. Brick in first connector, then jumper , then brick and lastly jumper. Switch the last 2. That's how the instructions read for a two brick setup.