3D printed coupler pocket to mount Kadees to AtlasO cars - thread updated with photos and test results with a 30mm wide pocket

3D printed spacers for Atlas cars already exist. Mario has done a few different designs that have new holes that line up with the Kadees, putting them flush with the end sill of the car. I have used many of them on my own Atlas cars.

There are also complete draft gear pockets for Lionel PS4 flat cars and other stuff designed by other people, all available on Shapeways.

LAIDOFFSICK - where does one go to order/ print the Atlas-Kadee  spacers?  

Marios items are here:

https://www.shapeways.com/shops/gandyman

Searching for 1/48 and O Scale stuff is kind of a pain in the butt on the Shapeways website..... but there is a ton of stuff out there that you can order from them.

Doug

I got what he is asking for. It would be similar to what Mario dose with the engine mounts. Interesting Idea. He just done something similar with the Lionel hoppers.

I dont really see a need to re-desgin a draft gear box to hold the coupler though. The Kadee draft gear box is just fine. The engine coupler mount still needs the complete Kadee to slide in it. It's just a spacer with a decorative front for the pilot. If the Kadee is the proper height on the cars, and flush with the end sill.... what else do we need? 

Mounting the Kadees at the proper height and location is the key... and the Atlas spacer provide just that. 

Doug

I agree. but it is an interesting concept. 

Thanks for drawing my attention to Mario's listings on Shapeways.  I'll give a set of shims a try. 

Where I disagree with LAIDOFFSICK is that for many applications the Kadee pocket isn't "just fine".  It's extreme opening detracts from the prototype look of our cars while the added lateral play isn't always required for good operation.  

For improved appearance I'd like to see a 3D printed scale width pocket version for mounting Kadee's.  I have a handful of hoppers with Yoder scale width coupler pockets (brass castings) and found they worked well on my former branch line (several tight  2 rail 42" radius curves).  .   Scale width pockets aren't for every application.  They wouldn't work well on long modern era cars or on layouts with tight S curves.  Hopefully with 3D printing someday soon we'll have several new Kadee coupler mounting options. 

Well unfortuntaely for us in 3 rail, we generally need those extreme openings of the Kadee draft gear box.

Even with an 072 minimum curve, I can't run the ProtoCraft couplers. The scale width box and spring limits the side to side movement too much. I need every bit of that extreme opening to use Kadees.

Hi, Ed!

theres been a few designs, and if you like either one or need something specific, email me. 

https://youtu.be/o42DBnNuHNk

Sounds like you're looking for a mount that has an integrated Kadee-style box. Much like I did for the truck mounted box, and I can look into it. How much side to side movement would you like?

In the meantime, thank you Doug!!!!!

heres what they look like and some iterations. They come in two thicknesses. 0.080" and 0.120". 

Here's the idea...

More details here: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...t-bolsters-and-shims

My email is in my profile.

thanks,

Mario

Ed,

I did some design work and I think this is what you are looking for.  Its a two-piece replacement box, that is a cross between the Protocraft and Kadee boxes, and self aligning to the "lugs" on the bottom of the Atlas O cars.

If you look at the cover, there are the four indentations for the lugs, whether you car has the two in line, or two to the outside.  If you place the cover with the "long hood" back, then the front of the coupler box should be at the end sill of the car.  If you turn it around, and project the "long hood" forward, then it becomes a cushioned draft gear box that sticks out from the sill.

The spring is designed to go in front of the screw, and the projection on the bottom of the coupler needs to be ground even with the shank, as it is no longer needed.  Also, I use a square file to flatten the inside curve of the shank opening so the spring fits flat.  I should be able to test print tomorrow.

Thoughts?

Here's the 1:1 comparison between the new box and the Kadee box; and the width of the new design can fit inside the opening of the Kadee box. 

Dont forget the spring goes in front of the screw on the new design. 

Lmk if you want any changes. 

I might be in for a few sets of these. I always have an Atlas car or two on the workbench waiting to get set up. 

Norm Charbonneau posted:

I might be in for a few sets of these. I always have an Atlas car or two on the workbench waiting to get set up. 

Should be good to go, but as always, I'd wait until I'd do a test print. 

Mario it looks good. I would widen it just a tad to allow for more swing( side to side movement). The ability to  use as a draft gear box for long hood forward, as a cushioned draft gear box is a great idea as there is nothing out there for this application. My only concern is that there isn't enough length to provide ridged strength under the box car to prevent bending as the plain white will bend under tension. The only difference between 3RS and 2R is the track   2R guys have the same issues with radius of curves like we do..  So if the design works for 3RS then it will work for 2R. Also did you get my Email. ?

Mario

Suggest you make available both a wide box and a narrow box version.  

Great idea Doug and John!... stay tuned. 

Doug, I did and there's a lot to digest there. I have some questions to improve them with your help. 

Meanwhile... here's the paper mockup for both the standard and cushioned draft gear. 

cushioned:

Close up of detail...

Something to point out to everyone following this. The other advantage will be the ability to just order the couplers and springs. This will drive down the cost.

Mario looks good. But would recommend the following

using an cushioned box car to insure length of the draft box .

I don't think your going to get away with out some sort of channel for the coupler similar to the Kadee draft box due to the lug on the bottom of the coupler unless you sand it off.

Also need to redo some measurements. concerning the email. I think I know what your questions are.

Doug

suzukovich posted:

Something to point out to everyone following this. The other advantage will be the ability to just order the couplers and springs. This will drive down the cost.

That is NOT all that easy to do with Kadee, as such separate individual coupler components generally must be ordered in minimum quantities from Kadee, i.e. around 500 pieces.

Mario looks good. But would recommend the following

using an cushioned box car to insure length of the draft box .

I don't think your going to get away with out some sort of channel for the coupler similar to the Kadee draft box due to the lug on the bottom of the coupler unless you sand it off.

Also need to redo some measurements. concerning the email. I think I know what your questions are.

Doug

HW

You can order the springs separately from Kadee.  This website you can order in bulk for better price. http://www.kadeecouplers.com/ They used to offer the couplers separate at one time. so I stand corrected. Even if you have to bulk order it will still be cheaper. All it takes is a phone call or email to find out. Just because it hasn't been done, doesn't mean it cant be done..

I have already converted my Atlas-O stuff to KDs. I found the spacer issue pretty irksome.

I have 11 box cars on preorder with Lionel. They are all the PS-1s except for 3 of the sound cars.

I need to know what thickness of Mario's spacers I will require as I see he makes two.

Also, as for the price. They are sold individually? Or as a pair? The price seems a bargain if it's for a pair. If it's for a single spacer .  .  . "not so much." I would have expected them to come in pairs, after all.

Terry Danks posted:

I have already converted my Atlas-O stuff to KDs. I found the spacer issue pretty irksome.

I have 11 box cars on preorder with Lionel. They are all the PS-1s except for 3 of the sound cars.

I need to know what thickness of Mario's spacers I will require as I see he makes two.

Also, as for the price. They are sold individually? Or as a pair? The price seems a bargain if it's for a pair. If it's for a single spacer .  .  . "not so much." I would have expected them to come in pairs, after all.

Terry,

The PS-1s have their own spacers. 

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...l-ps-1-kadee-install

What are the sound cars? Steel reefers?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zrxnlPJ9LIU

Thanks,

Mario

The PS1 sound box car is the same as the PS1 box car.. same spacers specific for the Lionel box car. 

Same with the ice reefers, they use the same Lionel ice reefer spacer with or without sound. Although doing the sound cars are a bit tricky because of the rollers and sensor. I have done all of mine, the sound cars just take a little longer and requires a few extra steps.

Mario - thanks for the rapid and thoughtful response.  In my initial post I was primarily looking for easy mounting of traditional Kadee's on AtlasO cars.  Your line of shims address that need.  

 A second and related interest is for a better looking narrow face coupler pocket for Kadee mounting.  Ideally the pocket would be offered in two versions - one for mounting on  AtlasO cars, and a slightly different version for cars with Kadee mounting pads.  On the latter I recommend going with centerline mounting holes so that the pocket can be narrow along its full length.  This attribute would improve the appearance of cars where the draft gear is visible from above.    

Addressing pocket width:  AtlasO and Kadee pockets have a .450" interior width at the face.  Yoder brass Kadee pockets  are .300" I.W. at the face.  The Protocraft pocket is .250 I.W.   My preference is for a compromise .300" wide pocket opening as I've found they work fine on my 2 rail layout.  Note: pocket openings this wide will not support delayed coupling - a feature I do not use (or like!).  For grins- below is a photo of hoppers equipped with Yoder .300" width couplers on a O-36 curve.   Depending on how tight the curves are, especially s curves, There can be issues if cars with limited lateral coupler displacement are coupled to longer equipment.  Full disclosure: my branch line minimum radius is 51".

Coupler centering is an important feature to me as we do "hands off" switching during operating sessions (see my 2/27/16 post on super magnets for uncoupling).   Kadee couplers (especially the original 805 head )have a fair amount of gathering range  - but if the heads are not centered (especially on curves)  coupling can be an issue.  Concern: If a pocket requires filing off the boss on the underside of the Kadee shank I doubt it will self center.

Reading through the posts above I suspect a one size fits all design probably wouldn't address the various 2 and 3 rail interests.  But with the flexibility of CAD/3D printing combined with Mario's talent perhaps a line of related pockets for Kadee mounting is in reach.

Ed,

thanks for the info and I'll digest it soon. 

Meanwhile, here's some pics of what I have for today's trial prints. 

They worked well, but I wasn't happy with the print. Some design changes coming. 

Cushioned arrangement:

Ed,

Ask and you shall receive.

I just finished the drawings for a receiver & cover that have a 0.300" wide opening.  I'll be ordering some to try.

The covers slide in and held in place with a tab at the front, and then the screw holds it all under the car.  The vertical blocks prevent deformation of the plastic during tightening and allow for the spring to have a flat surface to push off besides the screw.

The coupler should self-center as the block should cause any angle to work itself out at the rear of the shank.  The coupler will slide into the front of the box and up and over the box (I've clearance it accordingly), and then when you slide the cover in place it will fill in that clearance at the front of the opening.

Stay tuned.

PS - Shapeways has 25% & free shipping today only.

Thanks,

Mario

With Monday's free shipping offer I couldn't wait so I placed my first  Shapeways order for Mario's new coupler pocket.

Keystoned Ed posted:

with  today's free shipping offer couldn't wait so i placed my first order Shapeways order for Mario's new coupler pocket.

Thanks, Ed

I took the liberty of ordering you a set of the covers, which I call "Receiver Alignment Covers" and will send them to you when they arrive. 

I should have put the link to them in the description. 

Once i ensure that the design is sound, the next step is trimming excess plastic to get the price down. 

Thanks!

Mario

That was very kind of you Mario - thanks.  Your mention of refining a design to minimize the volume of 3D printed material  is a perspective I hadn't really thought about.  In the past  I've worked with friends and casters to produce a handful of special lost wax brass part for locomotive detailing projects (e.g. a correctly shaped PRR K4s sand dome).  With that medium labor tends to be the the factor driving production cost.  Does Shapeways offer anything in the way of volume discounts if one needed dozens of the same part?

 One of the things I like about the OGR forum is that it provides have a place where scale oriented modelers actually building and running 2 and 3 rail equipment can meet and exchange ideas and interests

Unfortunately, they do not offer volume discounts.

I am currently working with a detail parts manufacturer to get these done in lost wax castings, and that should bring all of that to a moot point.

One thing that Shapeways does offer is printing these and then creating a wax master for us, again saving us time and costs.

But, because of the fine wall thicknesses (0.030"), Shapeways limits the choice of materials to "ultra" detail and finer, so they charge a $5 setup fee, in addition to the per-volume material charge.  This is why I'm striving to both cut down on material usage and include a multi-up design.

In this case, the design work is "free".

You and John are leading the pack with blurring the line between 3RS & 2R, and are adored for it and both of your modeling skills.  Thank you.

Mario

You can add MTH GP9/7 that the newly redesigned Lionel GP9/7 mounts fit. Perfect match. Also when lowering the RS11 did you have an issue with the fuel Tank?

No issues at all with the fuel tank!

thanks for the research, I don't own any MTH Geeps. 

Parts like this should be made for conversion from three rail to two rail on MTH, Lionel and K-Line cars.. and whatever else needs 3-2-rail conversations.. 

Ed,

My test prints of the 0.300" wide opening full pockets, in Frosted Ultra Detail, shipped today! We'll know Wednesday evening on how well they look and perform. Yours should be soon to follow!

Thanks,

Mario

Test run on the build. 

Got some easy revisions, but they work great. Even the couplers center, as I though they would. 

I don't suggest using them on O40, as seen above, because in tension, the cars clear but on compression during pushing, these rub. 

These are the larger of the sets, the near-scale 0.300" opening ones will be here tomorrow. 

Thanks,

Mario

Mario - got my shipping notice from Shapeways this aftenoon.

Keystoned Ed posted:

Mario - got my shipping notice from Shapeways this aftenoon.

 

I think you're going to be very happy. 

You can see in the pictures where I had to shorten the box because it ran into the  bolster. I changed this in the design, as well as moving the side details back a little. 

The 0.300" opening frosted detail ones came this morning...

sick!

Have a question - Looking on the Shapeways site at the Atlas / Kadee shims.  Do I have to order 2 of the shims or do they come as a pair ?  Doesn't seem clear to me from what I read on the site.  Thanks

rrgeorge posted:

Have a question - Looking on the Shapeways site at the Atlas / Kadee shims.  Do I have to order 2 of the shims or do they come as a pair ?  Doesn't seem clear to me from what I read on the site.  Thanks

RRG,

After you said that, I drew / uploaded a new file with a new design, and its a 10-up pieces, which is enough to do 5 cars.

Whatcha think?

Wow - great Thanks 

I hope you're sitting down. 

Here's the Ultra Detail, near-scale (0.0300" opening)

I didn't think that the 0.300" opening was going to look that much better, but "me likey".  

Compare:

You've done a great job with these, Mario. I have several Atlas cars I'd like to switch over to Kadees.

Guys

These designs appear to be Copyrighted. Be sure you are using the design with permission of the copyright holder mscalzo3  at  Gandyman & Son Trains;

whoever that is.  Just because you can copy a design doesn't mean it's in the public domain.

AlanRail posted:

Guys

These designs appear to be Copyrighted. Be sure you are using the design with permission of the copyright holder mscalzo3  at  Gandyman & Son Trains;

whoever that is.  Just because you can copy a design doesn't mean it's in the public domain. 

 

Itsa Me!

I'm Mario Scalzo, aka mscalzo3, aka CentralFan1976, aka Gandyman & Son Trains.

in that case    great! thanks for the design!!

AlanRail posted:

in that case    great! thanks for the design!!

You da man!

Btw... if you wanted to know what the cushioned draft gear looked like for Atlas (and this is a Pecos River Brass car), here it is installed and painted. 

this is the standard box, with a smaller opening than Kadee yet not as small as the Yoder. Yes, the coupler will go around an O40 curve; but no! The truck will not. The swing hits the side of the box. 

I'll test them on the club layout tonight. 

AlanRail posted:

Guys

These designs appear to be Copyrighted. Be sure you are using the design with permission of the copyright holder mscalzo3  at  Gandyman & Son Trains; whoever that is.  Just because you can copy a design doesn't mean it's in the public domain.

I cracked up when I saw this as I knew that was Mario.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

AlanRail posted:

Guys

These designs appear to be Copyrighted. Be sure you are using the design with permission of the copyright holder mscalzo3  at  Gandyman & Son Trains; whoever that is.  Just because you can copy a design doesn't mean it's in the public domain.

I cracked up when I saw this as I knew that was Mario.

With all those aliases it no wonder Alan was confused.  

Thats because he's still in the closet about really wanting to be a 2 railer 

laughed my tail off......Itsa  me.

Ron

Mr. Rappe, any luck?

Mario  - got one set of pockets (no lids) and one .120" shim.  I sent you an email so we can chat off-line about what I need to order to do an initial set of test installations.  AtlasO uses a variety of mounts on their cars depending on the underframe setup and I want to order the right parts.  Does Shapeways assign a part number to your designs, or do we order just based on the titles in your listings?  Titles work with most items, but with the variety of AtlasO mounts it can get a little confusing.

Candidate cars on my list for upgrade to narrow pockets include:

USRA outside braced 40' box cars

X29 box cars (13)

H21 hoppers (30)

Other candidates include 8k gallon and 11k tank cars.  I have one extremely heavy C&O composite twin hopper that could be used to test the strength of the draft gear/coupler pairing.

The AtlasO H21 quad hopper upgrade raises questions about design, material, and cost.    We do a lot of mine run switching on my branch line and due to reach issues need reliable hands off coupling/uncoupling.  I've found that to get rock solid coupling/uncoupling (especially on slight curves) is to have couplers with identical coupler heads and knuckle spring tension.  My hopper fleet spanned 60 years of O scale modelling and was equipped many different scale couplers.  To get the performance I wanted I needed to standardize couplers on those cars serving the coal branch. (cars on run through trains like a reefer block didn't need to be changed).  After quite a bit of operational testing I found the old 800 series Kadees  worked best on my layout.  The acid test was coupling/uncoupling on a slight curve approach to one of the mines (photo below). 

 I bit the bullet and mounted Kadee 800's on over 80 hoppers (30 AtlasO quads) - the pain was worth the gain!  A downside with Kadee pockets on AtlasO quad hoppers is the gap in the prototype's cast end still. 

If I go with a 30" pocket I'd get an even bigger gap.  Questions - would it be practical to offer a version of the narrow pocket with "wings" to fill the  end sill gap?  Are there alternatives could lower the cost if ordered in bulk? 

These are some things to think about later - first I need to equip several cars with the .30" wide coupler pockets and do some operational testing.

Thanks again Mario. 

Any luck with the test pieces?

thanks,

Mario

Mario - I'm embarrassed to say I haven't followed through with mounting the coupler pockets.   For the last 2 months I've been fully engaged with re-motoring tests related to DCC'ing  4 locomotives.  The test used high efficiency coreless motors to replace Pittman can motors.  The objective was to reduce current draw enabling use of boiler mounted HO decoders.  Lots of time in the shop expended in making custom motor mounts with only mixed results - 2 successes - 2 failures. 

I'll get back on the coupler project and report results after returning from the Chicago O scale meet later this month.  Again - thanks for your support to the hobby.

.

I recently installed a pair of Mario's 3D printed 30mm wide face coupler pockets on an AtlasO USRA outside braced box car and am very pleased with the results.  The photo below highlights the difference in appearance between AtlasO couplers and Kadee 804's mounted in Mario's "narrow" draft gear pocket. 

In testing I found the modified car coupled and uncoupled reliably with other cars equipped with Kadee 800 series couplers on curved track down to 60" radius.  Note that centering is not provided by draft gear springing or tabs, but by the fit of the coupler in the pocket.  This worked reliably with my transition era freight cars thanks to the broad gathering range of Kadee 800 series couples.   I doubt this approach would work as well with Kadee's 700 series couplers as in prior testing I found that their tighter tolerances between coupler heads restricted coupling and uncoupling on curves (thus my standardization on 800's).  Also note that a 30mm wide draft gear face will not support Kadee's Delayed Coupling feature.  (I don't use delayed action couplers as it requires an extra back and forth move to couple to cars spotted over uncoupling magnets) .

Our hobby entails a series of trade offs between the prototype we are trying to model and model railroad operation.  Mario's 30mm wide draft gear strikes a good balance.   It dramatically improves the appearance of AtlasO's cars while supporting reliable hands off operation - IMO a winner! 

Thanks Ed!

I'm glad we could work together on this project and you are pleased with what came of it. I can get the guys at Scale City to get these mass produced. 

One thing that helps with the centering action, is to square up the front of the slot in the Kadee with a square file, which gives the spring a flat surface to push against. 

if there's anything to work on, just let me know. 

PS- I've moved the detail on the side of the receiver box back from the front edge. 

Thanks!

-Mario

Getting the word out, Ed:

https://www.facebook.com/group...nk/1696429363717885/

ED,

Your yard ballast is perfect. Would you share the mix you used?

Sorry to get off topic.

Thanks, Ron H