I'm thinking of dabbling in 2 rail...(UPDATE--I dove in Head First)

Most newer stuff comes with DCC decoders.    MTH decoders however have been known at the local club to not be totally DCC compliant.     Atlas and Sunset 3rd Rail use standard decoders.     Lionel makes no 2 rail.   

Basically O scale 2 rail works identically to HO and N.    If  you can do that, you can do, just bigger stuff but still 12 volts.   Most of it draws a little more amperage than HO and I assume N scale.

As for DCC systems, NCE is very common and popular as is Digitrax.     There is also Lenz and EasyDCC that are fairly common.    MRC makes a system but it does not have as good reputation as the above, it seems to be more of a low-end system.   All have radio throttles except Lenz.    However the company that makes EasyDCC, CVP, makes a radio throttle system for Lenz.    I have not seen any modelers in my area use DCS with DCC decoders.   

You can use any mfg's decoders with any control system, that is the neat thing about standard signals.    Installing your own decoders is very easy if  you are a little handy and can solder some small wires.    There are some companies that just make sound/motor decoders, and no control system such as Soundtraxx and QSI.   

My suggestion if  you want to use DCC is to select a system that some other modelers in your area use.    That way you can have some one handy to ask some questions when you are getting started.     There are also online forums for all the major control systems.

In Older steamers, you can find lots and lots of really neat brass stuff that  you can install decoders in.    So there is much more ability to follow a specific prototype more closely.

I have NCE Powercab controllers for my On30 DCC locos and thoroughly recommend them. 

I use NCE, as does our club. It is very user friendly. Their products are well designed and well made. Their customer service is top notch.

Most DCC decoders have the ability to use either DCC or straight DC. Known as dual-mode decoders.

By all means, stay away from a proprietary system like DCS, unless you'll only run at home. Compatibility with DCC is definitely an issue.

A layout will have a pair of bus wires, 12-14 gauge dependent on size. Add feeders, 22-24 gauge, to EVERY section of track. A lot of 2 railers will use 40" flexible sections.

DCC systems use AC power on the track. On-board decoders convert it to DC to the motors.

In addition to NCE's popularity … I've found the people in their office to be friendly and helpful. I've had their systems since DCC was just starting to get popular in HO.

And, concerning DCC dual mode decoders … you will experience much better motor control than 3-rail, even in simple DC mode. 

Have fun.

You know what else comes in 2 rail? 

Clockwork O

And you don't need silly decoding electronics to run it... Why you don't need electricity at all! 

I'm in the DMZ between 3-rail and 2-rail. I run scale-wheeled equipment at my hi-rail club using MTH engines set to 3-rail mode under DCS. However, I also ran a demonstrator on a 2-rail layout at a train show a few years ago under NCE DCC. It went into the system right away without incident and ran flawlessly for hours. When I build my home layout, I still don't know if I'm buliding 2-rail or 3-rail/2-rail hybrid.

I'm the other guy here. I run nothing but MTH DCS. (I do have some TMCC, and DCC in boxes)

I gave up on DCC. It's good to see that they finally are moving forward. It just took way too long. Thank goodness for some programs to finally help it along. It has great capabilities. If you settle on a brand it will be easier. Each one has limitations though. Most of the older decoders struggled with power handling. Many didn't have sound or smoke capability. You had to pair different brands together inside an engine. Some needed their own programmers, and/or a degree to use them. Cheap decoders failed. Expensive ones were from other countries.

TMCC is just like DCC. You just had to memorize all the programming to exploit all of the features. I was always surprised that the two wouldn't work together.

So if you want RTR engines, there's a few choices. MTH engines run on DCS, DC, and DCC.

Atlas (if you can get them), 3rd Rail, and brass?, run DCC or DC only.

Thanks for the great responses! Unfortunately, the only club in town is HO and N scale.  No O scalers that I am aware of...I think there is an O scale 2 rail show in Atlanta next weekend.  I am only 4 hours away and my kids live up there...so I may go to get my feet wet and ask tons of questions.

I have been looking at NCE equipment and have seen some for HO/N and some for O.  Looks like the main difference are the AMPs 2 vs 5 or 10?  How many AMPs do the engines draw?  Also looks like DigiTrax starter kit are 4-8 AMPs and can run HO/N and O?

I do love the fact that the decoder is a decoder and either system will work with it.  Interesting concept.  

Also cool 3 rail MTH can run in 2 rail mode...I assume the pickup wheels come off for this?

You really want to order the 2 rail version in MTH. I have converted many diesels and it takes extra work.

So are you diesel or steam? with smoke? and sound?

Amp draw depends on smoke use. I'd guess at 1 amp without and 2 amps with smoke. 

I had a Digitrax system and liked it. The NCE is very good and I used their decoders at the end. I think it was their #408. It just didn't have sound. So I pigi-backed a Locksound inside with it.

Just my opinion but, I didn't think that real model railroaders "dabble" in model railroading, 2-Rail or otherwise.

Dice;

I live in north west Iowa so I deal with being away from a lot. I like 2 rail coming over from HO in the mid-90s. Best modeling there is as far as I know. I also use NCE as it is easy to get going and as I run a switching layout ( 4' x 16') I use the HO system. My Atlas as well as a couple Sunset locos rarely pull 1 amp and with 2 or 3 cars in tow will pull 1/2 amp easily. I have a friend that runs Digitrax but it seems you need and engineering degree to understand it.

Dick

Engineer-Joe posted:

You really want to order the 2 rail version in MTH. I have converted many diesels and it takes extra work.

So are you diesel or steam? with smoke? and sound?

Amp draw depends on smoke use. I'd guess at 1 amp without and 2 amps with smoke. 

I had a Digitrax system and liked it. The NCE is very good and I used their decoders at the end. I think it was their #408. It just didn't have sound. So I pigi-backed a Locksound inside with it.

I like steam mainly, but am not prejudice against a good looking diesel engine.  I do like smoke...sound as in a whistle or horn?  Yes...I like them.  Crew talk on Lionel...no not a big fan.

If I want to dabble...I could do without smoke or sound.  Would the smaller 2 AMP system work with one engine...then I could add a power booster or something if I decide to do more than dabble?

CBQer posted:

Dice;

I live in north west Iowa so I deal with being away from a lot. I like 2 rail coming over from HO in the mid-90s. Best modeling there is as far as I know. I also use NCE as it is easy to get going and as I run a switching layout ( 4' x 16') I use the HO system. My Atlas as well as a couple Sunset locos rarely pull 1 amp and with 2 or 3 cars in tow will pull 1/2 amp easily. I have a friend that runs Digitrax but it seems you need and engineering degree to understand it.

Dick

Thanks...I always felt the same about Digitrax.  Makes sense too about pulling more cars and drawing more amps.  So you use the 2 AMP system on the switching system?

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, I didn't think that real model railroaders "dabble" in model railroading, 2-Rail or otherwise.

Touché...but dabbling to me is getting my feet wet to see if I like it more than 3 rail...then I either do both or one or the other...

If you are just starting out give battery R/C a close look at. 

I run 2 rail DC, 2 rail PS-2/3  and 3 rail PS 2/3, 3 rail conventional, then got a pair of DCS  TIU's for a herd of MTH locos but then  I picked up a battery R/C. 

Paradigm shift !    Wish I did R/C before anything else.  

R/C is available with and with out sound,  same with lighting.  Robert Buck is the go to person for many of us.  His Piko installations are neat and clean.

R/C units run $99.00 to $275.  Battery, charger, installation additional.

Robert is in York not far from the fairgrounds.  717-741-3060

I'm happy with DCS. I like modern DCC stuff. If I started right now I would also look at battery (dead rail). I'm surprised it hasn't grown bigger. I have to assume it's from lack of standards and interop. Smaller brands and separate tech?

I did look years back and didn't like the state of battery tech. They didn't last long both charge and life overall.

I run large consists and it was a matter of economy (usually is for most of us). Maybe if I only ran steam and single engines it would be different. Depending on rails for power is a pain. Large consists make it more economical. Hopefully future sound cars and features to exploit this more very soon in O scale?

I saved an old MRC basic DCC system and it will run one DCC engine on my bench.

Andy,

Definitely you should give 2 rail a try!  

My $0.02 worth is that if you just want to try 2-rail fpr now, then DCC is likely cheaper and easier than battery R/C just as a start. You won't have to do custom work on the loco(s) at first. You could look for a used entry-level NCE system as probably the most user-friendly starting point.

You could get a used 2-rail loco with factory DCC and sound such as Atlas or Sunset 3rd Rail and a few freight cars, or convert a few 3-rail ones if you have some scale 3-rail cars on hand.  Add some used Atlas flex or sectional track and a few turnouts and you can make a nice switching layout to see how you feel about 2-rail in practice.

If you do get hooked, you could add battery power but keep the DCC decoders to get the best of both worlds - best sounds and best running.  Or sell off the DCC system again and go battery R/C. That may depend on what matters most to you, such as the most realistic sound and lighting effects, 100% reliable running without needing track wiring, most realistic operating session experience for engineers and conductors, etc.

I've been using DCC for 25 years and seem to have it working quite well for my needs finally. 

But if I was starting out now I think I would go battery power but with DCC control to get the best of everything.

In case it's of interest, here are a few clips of my modern-era shortline with DCC and ProtoThrottle. The PT is a wireless handheld but I put it in a cradle when shooting video:

You can still find used Atlas SW8/9/1200, GP35s, MP15DCs with DCC and sound used but they are in demand.

More clips of 2-rail DCC switching ops here:

https://www.youtube.com/playli...pWGXAKZmSQ1c-zvvdOnz

Peter, the ProtoThrottle is impressive.  I can't think of any other controller that actually simulates a locomotive control stand.  Sure beats all the yadda-yadda about using a smart phone as a controller. 

Thanks for the demonstration.

Rusty

“Do or do not.  There is no dabble!”

Pete M posted:

In case it's of interest, here are a few clips of my modern-era shortline with DCC and ProtoThrottle. The PT is a wireless handheld but I put it in a cradle when shooting video:

I used a ProtoThrottle on someone's HO narrow industrial switching layout. It really was cool. It was addicting. Even with the Kadee uncoupling magnets in the rails.

They cost some bucks … but, very tempting.

Pete M posted:

Andy,

Definitely you should give 2 rail a try!  

...You could get a used 2-rail loco with factory DCC and sound such as Atlas or Sunset 3rd Rail and a few freight cars, or convert a few 3-rail ones if you have some scale 3-rail cars on hand.  Add some used Atlas flex or sectional track and a few turnouts and you can make a nice switching layout to see how you feel about 2-rail in practice.

...You can still find used Atlas SW8/9/1200, GP35s, MP15DCs with DCC and sound used but they are in demand.

 

More clips of 2-rail DCC switching ops here:

https://www.youtube.com/playli...pWGXAKZmSQ1c-zvvdOnz

Thanks for the videos Joe and Pete and all the thoughts.  It's been very helpful and not as daunting as I thought years ago when DCC started.

I think Pete nailed what I am thinking of doing...I will be on the lookout for a used DCC engine and convert a few of my scale 3 rail cars over to 2 rail.  Get a few switches and a nice little switching layout. 

The PT is very impressive!  Thanks for showing it.

I assume to make my 3 rail freight cars 2 rail, I need to change the wheelsets and change the couplers?

I am definitely going to the 2 rail o Scale swap meet in Atlanta next weekend!

You're welcome Andy! 

You'll get inspiration and ideas from the show even if you don't find what you need right away. As well there's some good 2R items on here in the For Sale or Trade forum, plus ebay of course and there's an Oscale Yardsale group on Groups.io which is all 2-rail.   

Yes, for scale 3-rail cars, you need to swap out couplers for Kadees (my preference) or similar (check out Protocraft if you want true scale and working cut levers), and usually the complete trucks or sometimes just the wheelsets.  There are several good threads on here about conversions.

And thanks to Jim and Rusty for the PT comments also. I'm having so much fun with DCC, sound and PT these days I can't help but encourage others. I've become an insufferable bore on the topic.

Of course PT works in any scale, but the mass of O scale makes it even better imho. No doubt it's a bit of a niche product, but for Diesel ops with 2-person crews it can be addictive.  

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, I didn't think that real model railroaders "dabble" in model railroading, 2-Rail or otherwise.

Jack:

    Model railroading is like trying to eat just one salted peanut. And you know how that goes.

Andy:

  My locomotives are the "-2" models from MTH with scale wheels and fixed pilots. The GE Hybrid in the videos is equipped with Protosound 3, which runs under DCS or DCC as was the case in the videos. In conventional mode, they'll run on AC or DC current, but under DC you don't get the horn, bell, and other sounds.

CBQer posted:

Dice;

I live in north west Iowa so I deal with being away from a lot. I like 2 rail coming over from HO in the mid-90s. Best modeling there is as far as I know. I also use NCE as it is easy to get going and as I run a switching layout ( 4' x 16') I use the HO system. My Atlas as well as a couple Sunset locos rarely pull 1 amp and with 2 or 3 cars in tow will pull 1/2 amp easily. I have a friend that runs Digitrax but it seems you need and engineering degree to understand it.

Dick

Dick---Just reread your post.  You are using a 2AMP NCE system?  Do your engines have lights, sound, or smoke?  I assume you are running 1 engine at a time?  Also, if this will work and I decided to move forward and wanted more AMPs, I think I read I could buy a smart booster to upgrade the AMPs to run more loco's and accessories?  Thanks

AGHRMatt posted:

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, I didn't think that real model railroaders "dabble" in model railroading, 2-Rail or otherwise.

Jack:

    Model railroading is like trying to eat just one salted peanut. And you know how that goes.

Andy:

  My locomotives are the "-2" models from MTH with scale wheels and fixed pilots. The GE Hybrid in the videos is equipped with Protosound 3, which runs under DCS or DCC as was the case in the videos. In conventional mode, they'll run on AC or DC current, but under DC you don't get the horn, bell, and other sounds.

Thanks Matt...Interesting.  hmmm I like the idea of getting an engine that can run on either until I decide which way I will ultimately go.  Great info!

I have some Lima 2 rail O scale from Italy, and also have recently bought a couple of 2 rail Atlas switchers ( these are the smaller ones about 5" long ) I have both passenger cars by Lima ( and for the 70's ( when I got them ) there pretty well detailed inside 

I also have some 4 wheels total freight cars, that I will use behind the switchers 

I have more than enough track to do 2 loops, My curve track is 24" radius ( so 48" loop ) and I have over 30 pieces of 10" straight track. All track is by Atlas, I also have two right hand and two left hand. I hope to make like a 5' x 8' second level for these trains. I'll continue running them conventional Thou. 

Definitely go for 2-rail. I did after starting in 3. You don’t get these kinds of sounds from MTH or Lionel...

catnap posted:

Definitely go for 2-rail. I did after starting in 3. You don’t get these kinds of sounds from MTH or Lionel...

Sounds awesome...who made the engine and what soundboard are you running?

roll_the_dice posted:

Thanks for the great responses! Unfortunately, the only club in town is HO and N scale.  No O scalers that I am aware of...I think there is an O scale 2 rail show in Atlanta next weekend.  I am only 4 hours away and my kids live up there...so I may go to get my feet wet and ask tons of questions.

I have been looking at NCE equipment and have seen some for HO/N and some for O.  Looks like the main difference are the AMPs 2 vs 5 or 10?  How many AMPs do the engines draw?  Also looks like DigiTrax starter kit are 4-8 AMPs and can run HO/N and O?

I do love the fact that the decoder is a decoder and either system will work with it.  Interesting concept.  

Also cool 3 rail MTH can run in 2 rail mode...I assume the pickup wheels come off for this?

Hi Andy,

I've had a fair amount of experience with NCE DCC in N-scale.  Also a little bit with Digitrax.  I like the NCE system better, as I think it is more intuitive, more user-friendly.

If you are thinking about an NCE system, and want it for O scale, then you will want to get the 10 amp system.  While the smaller amp systems might run one or two O-scale locomotives, you will find yourself running short on power very quickly.  Actually, if memory serves, the only difference between the systems is the power supply (i.e., the "Brick").  Outside of that, the rest of the equipment is all the same, no matter what scale you're using.

Also, if your HO/N scale club runs NCE, so much the better.  They could definitely help you with everything you need to know while you are getting up to speed on DCC.  Like I say, it doesn't matter what scale you are running, because outside of the power supply it's all the same to the DCC systems.

No matter what DCC system you end up with, it can run virtually anybody else's decoder.  We can thank the NMRA for establishing standards and recommended practices early on in the DCC development game.

Hope this helps. 

Here's some advice - repeated from the 3-rail forum.

Start simple.  It appears you like N&W.  Find a 2-rail "J" like the one in my photo below.  It has no electronics, and chances are that the flywheel is out of balance - but, for under $400 (and often around $250) it is an unbeatable bargain.    Run it on your new two rail loop without fancy stuff.  Plenty of room in boiler and tender to add NCE or DCS or any other popular alphabet soup deal.  You can decide after you decide on keeping it.

Something smaller?  Williams made a PRR B6 switcher in 2-rail, and now they are under $200.  Pure bargain territory - I traded my Gem version even for one of these.  Less detail, but much better built, and runs like a watch.  I will spare you the photo.

I am not a great Williams fan - my big deal is prewar Lobaugh - but I am suggesting value for $.  Unbeatable.  Opinion.

I started in 3-rail, using conventional control.  I then switched to TMCC and DCS command control.

I had always thought about how great it would be to go to BPRC (Battery Powered, Remote Control) and 6 or so years ago started converting engines to run using a Deltang transmitters and receivers, and 9.6v 2000Mah NiMh or 11.1v 2200Mah LiPo batteries.

After converting all most 20 engines I can say I've never thought about going back to anything that uses wiring (and I was an electronics mechanic for the Navy).

Presently I run BPRC engines that are still using 3-rail wheels, and all my rolling stock is still 3-rail.  I'm running on 2-rail, code 148 track made by Micro-Engineering (flextrack), Atlas (curved sections), and Signature Switch (turnouts custom-built for my 3-rail wheels).

I have no sound or smoke, didn't like it much when I was running command control.  The trains make plenty of sound on their own going around the layout.

If I had listened to some of the folks here I would have saved a ton of $$$ and started in 2-rail instead of going 3-rail and converting over.  I have a pile of electronics that I pulled out of these engines.

I still clean the track, but maybe once per year.  NO WIRING!!!  I get approx. 2.5 hours of run time on a charge and can get down to a crawl.  When 1 engine needs recharging I pull into the engine facility and swap it with a freshly charged engine.  Hook up the charger that charges at 1amp/hr, so 2 to 2.5hrs to recharge.

Smallest steamer I have is a MTH RailKing Imperial USRA 0-6-0, the largest is my Williams/Samhongsa brass N&W 4-8-4 Class "J", both run fine under BPRC.

@bob2  Thanks for the reply here and on the 3rd rail side.  I am on the lookout for something I can run around the loop and try and decide what I want to do.  Going to the 2 rail train show in Atlanta next Saturday so that should help clear the waters of seeing and hearing.

@Bob Delbridge  Great info...I will look into it.  All new to me.  I didn't even know BPRC existed until this thread!  I will google it and see what I can find.

roll_the_dice posted:
Sounds awesome...who made the engine and what soundboard are you running?

Thanks. It’s an Atlas SD40 that was originally a 3-rail un-powered locomotive that I converted to 2-rail.

I used an ESU LokSound XL decoder with 2 speakers, 1 in the fuel tank and another mounted on the frame. I find ESU to have the most authentic-sounding decoders in DCC.

Where is the battery in a BPRC system ?

Is there a ready to run battery engine made or do you have to always do a conversion of some sort?  thanks

catnap posted:

roll_the_dice posted:
Sounds awesome...who made the engine and what soundboard are you running?

Thanks. It’s an Atlas SD40 that was originally a 3-rail un-powered locomotive that I converted to 2-rail.

I used and ESU LokSound XL decoder with 2 speakers, 1 in the fuel tank and another mounted on the frame. I find ESU to have the most authentic-sounding decoders in DCC.

Thanks!  Would you recommend buy a 2 rail switcher or something in DC and running it around a loop of track and if I like it add a decoder and NCE or something similar?  If I buy a non DCC engine and run it conventionally would my old MRC dual transformer from my HO days run the engine conventionally with no problems?  Also what track system...Atlas?

Anyone have an engine they want to sell cheap to get me into 2 rail?

I am getting excited.

roll_the_dice posted:

CBQer posted:

Dice;

I live in north west Iowa so I deal with being away from a lot. I like 2 rail coming over from HO in the mid-90s. Best modeling there is as far as I know. I also use NCE as it is easy to get going and as I run a switching layout ( 4' x 16') I use the HO system. My Atlas as well as a couple Sunset locos rarely pull 1 amp and with 2 or 3 cars in tow will pull 1/2 amp easily. I have a friend that runs Digitrax but it seems you need and engineering degree to understand it.

Dick

Dick---Just reread your post.  You are using a 2AMP NCE system?  Do your engines have lights, sound, or smoke?  I assume you are running 1 engine at a time?  Also, if this will work and I decided to move forward and wanted more AMPs, I think I read I could buy a smart booster to upgrade the AMPs to run more loco's and accessories?  Thanks

I'd like to bump up Andy's question for anyone that knows.

Folks are using NCE's 2 amp PowerCab system with an O scale engine? With sound? You don't max it out, with its lower voltage output? My friend has an Atlas GP7 with its original QSI system … sound and the two motors was drawing significant amps.

I was wondering if I could run a single Atlas SW or MP switcher, with a couple of cars, with a 2A PowerCab.

Thanks

FWIW I've been using "HO-sized/current capability" Loksound Select HO and now 5DCC HO decoders in Atlas 2 rail SW9s, MP15DCs and dual-motor drives for many years with no issues.

The max continuous current draw at wheel-slip is about 1A for the single-motored drives and 1.3A for the dual-motor drives.  That's as measured on a RRAmpMeter and doesn't allow for starting current spikes etc.

However, there are a few important notes:

• My max train length per loco is 15 x 1lb cars, and I have no grades. But I do have some 36" radius curves in hidden areas.
• All locos are weighted such that they always reach wheel slip before stalling.
• The Atlas dual-motor drives have the motors wired in series. Better slow running but eaiser for one truck to spin the wheels, stopping the loco.  
• I use 3M heat transfer tape to mount the decoders to the diecast chassis and I allow air space around the deocder.
• I enable the "motor protection" feature in the decoder where available.
• I use speakers well matched to the impedance and power handling of the decoder's amp.

So, in theory, I think it ought to be possible to run one Atlas 2-rail loco on a 2A booster.  

If you try to run an O scale engine at 12 volts, it's going to draw more amps I believe. You should run at 18 volts.

If the system won't switch to higher voltage, I'd say it's not made for larger scales. You'd have to rid the extra heat from higher amp draws, no?

I'm sure I'll hear from some posters now!

I run my DCS G scale at 21 volts at the board. I can run 5 or 6 engines with smoke on without issues. The amp draw stays very low for all that pulling power. I have a pretty serious grade outside in the backyard. I like to pull 50 cars.

I'm a long time user of NCE DCC gear and a big fan of their robustness and relative simplicity.  On my railroad (2200') I operate with a 10 amp radio PowerPro (radio)  system.  Initially I had  a single 10 amp booster, as operations intensified over time I added 3 more boosters (now 4 power districts )each with its own fast acting PSX circuit breaker.  Later still I purchased a NCE PowerCab for the purpose of testing and configuring  locomotives on a workbench roller stand.  Soon after I shipped the PowerCab back to NCE for a $90 radio upgrade.  With the upgrade the PowerCab functions just like all my other my other radio  ProCabs on the railroad during operating sessions, while retaining the capability to run as a self contained "plug-in" DCC system on the workbench..

  To answer the question in the post above I unplugged the  NCE 10 amp boosters from the layout and clip leaded the output of the PowerCab to one of the power districts.  For the test I ran a  AtlasO EMD switcher (Tsunami2 2200 2 amp sound decoder) pulling a 16 car freight.  The cars were a mix of brass and plastic models weighted to around 16 oz.  The PowerCab easily ran the train back and forth within the power district.  Then I remembered a neat feature of the PowerCab that I hadn't used in some time.  With a couple of button clicks I was able to set up the PowerCab to display real time current draw.  I then reran the test train.   During the runs the peak current draw shown on the display was 1.1 amp - well within the 2.5 amp rating of the PowerCab.  The peak readings were very brief and occurred only when the train first started to move.  When rolling down the main the draw was under .6 amp.  

IMO a PowerCab is a great way to start out on a modest sized O scale layout - and if later you want to run a couple of relatively efficient multiple unit diesels it can be upgraded to a 5 amp system.    

Joe - With NCE PowerCab output is set at 12 volts - which is more than enough to run most of today's o scale 2 rail locomotives at prototype speeds on a small layout.  The voltage output of the 10 amp NCE PowerPro system is adjustable. I set mine at 16v.  Perhaps the single biggest advantage for DCC over propriety systems is the competition among vendors for our business.  We're not stuck with one brand and the vendors continue to offer decoders with new features that are backward compatible with our existing systems.  

Right on Ed.   It's good to hear your current draw measurements are similar to mine! 

I run my DCC track at ~15V because I have TCS Keep-Alives on all decoders and TCS rates them up to 16V. 

I agree DCC 12V should be fine for trying out one Atlas single or dual-motored loco. However I wouldn't try an older Pittman-powered drive on DCC 12V unless a >5A booster was available and the loco had a suitable high-current decoder installed.

If you can make The March Meet in Lombard you ought to get answers to most of your questions.  Rolling stock, engines and track are available from the most modestly priced to $4,000 locomotives. Used to new.  John in Lansing, ILL

You guys are awesome and have given me GREAT information.  I really appreciate it.

So I will go to the show next weekend and look for some locos to test and see if I can "play" with an NCE system.  That would be nice!  

So this is what I am thinking...find a loco, buy the 2 AMP NCE system (might end up using it on a switching HO layout down the road.)  If I can't find a good loco for testing, I may buy an MTH -2 diesel.  That way I could run it on 2 rail and if I decide to stay with 3 rail, make it run on 3 rail as @AGHRMatt does above.

I am excited about the show next weekend...I think they are having some clinics also.

Keystoned Ed posted:

I'm a long time user of NCE DCC gear and a big fan of their robustness and relative simplicity.  On my railroad (2200') I operate with a 10 amp radio PowerPro (radio)  system.  Initially I had  a single 10 amp booster, as operations intensified over time I added 3 more boosters (now 4 power districts )each with its own fast acting PSX circuit breaker.  Later still I purchased a NCE PowerCab for the purpose of testing and configuring  locomotives on a workbench roller stand.  Soon after I shipped the PowerCab back to NCE for a $90 radio upgrade.  With the upgrade the PowerCab functions just like all my other my other radio  ProCabs on the railroad during operating sessions, while retaining the capability to run as a self contained "plug-in" DCC system on the workbench..

  To answer the question in the post above I unplugged the  NCE 10 amp boosters from the layout and clip leaded the output of the PowerCab to one of the power districts.  For the test I ran a  AtlasO EMD switcher (Tsunami2 2200 2 amp sound decoder) pulling a 16 car freight.  The cars were a mix of brass and plastic models weighted to around 16 oz.  The PowerCab easily ran the train back and forth within the power district.  Then I remembered a neat feature of the PowerCab that I hadn't used in some time.  With a couple of button clicks I was able to set up the PowerCab to display real time current draw.  I then reran the test train.   During the runs the peak current draw shown on the display was 1.1 amp - well within the 2.5 amp rating of the PowerCab.  The peak readings were very brief and occurred only when the train first started to move.  When rolling down the main the draw was under .6 amp.  

IMO a PowerCab is a great way to start out on a modest sized O scale layout - and if later you want to run a couple of relatively efficient multiple unit diesels it can be upgraded to a 5 amp system.    

Thanks for a great post Ed!  It is really appreciated.  You guys have been great at pointing me in the right direction.  I am super excited!

Keystoned Ed posted:

Joe - With NCE PowerCab output is set at 12 volts - which is more than enough to run most of today's o scale 2 rail locomotives at prototype speeds on a small layout.  The voltage output of the 10 amp NCE PowerPro system is adjustable. I set mine at 16v.  

Wait! What? You point out 12 volts is enough but you run at 16 volts? 

Why?

For a small  starter layout running scale speeds appropriate to tight curves and short runs you don’t need 18 volts on the rails.  I’ve set the adjustable boosters on my layout to 16 v  and it is rare that we come close to running at the max DCC speed step on a multi track  main line with 30 car freights and 12 car passenger trains.  Typically we run the freights at about 40 scale mph - around 2/3  throttle for most of my locomotives.  IMO the trains run and look better at more modest scale speeds.  The AtlasO switcher ran beautifully with 12 volts DCC on the rails.   No question - if you  like high speed running  you need more that 12 volts.

With DCC one issue is estimating how much current capacity you need for full operations on a large layout.  That depends on factors such as the current draw of the locomotives you run, the number of locomotives running at the same time, train length, grades, and other power demands like smoke and passenger car lights.  The good news is that today’s  2 rail models are generally less current hogs than in earlier times - and we have a lot more choices in control systems to operate them.   

Interesting to note that Tony Koester went with a NCE PowerCab for his P48 switching  layout featured in that other model railroading magazine.

clem k posted:

Where is the battery in a BPRC system ?

Clem, all my steamers have the battery in the tender, diesels are inside on the chassis. The 9.6v battery I use is 1.1"x1.1"x4.5".  I've never tried a smaller battery (size or voltage).  I run at fairly slow speeds (usually under 60smph) and a lesser volt battery may work just as well, I don't know for sure.  The 11.1 LiPo batteries are a bit larger and I use a 12v battery in the Williams/Samhongsa 4-8-4 and I believe one other. I go to All-Battery to determine which one will work, and usually find them on Amazon cheaper than what they are direct once shipping/tax is included.  These batteries are good for several hundred if not 1,000 charges.  I haven't had to replace one yet.

I wasn't sure how any of these would run with only a 9.6v battery, but they're just as fast as when they were under DCS/TMCC 18+ volts.  I don't know what voltage actually gets to the motors using DCS/TMCC but I don't think it's over 12dc, but I could be wrong.

If you can follow an electrical schematic and do basic soldering you should be good to go.  But there are a few places that will do the install for you.

Here's a basic wiring diagram for BPRC:

Here's one I drew for when I use the Deltang receiver and the BIK-U3 kit that consists of the on/off switch, charging jack, and fuses:

Deltang Rx65b receiver. Now I get them from Micro Radio Control in the UK and get the ones that are pre-wired.  I believe the latest version is the Rx65c, I haven't bought one in a year or 2 (ruler in photo is in cm/mm):

RCS Australia BIK-U3 assy:

Just for clarity, I don't run at higher voltage for speed. I do it to help with power draw. Engines seem to run better and cooler. There is less trouble with burning or arcing then. Just my opinion. 

When in HO I ran Digitrax, but wish I had of used NCE, much more user friendly.  However, both systems interfaces are old and haven't been updated in 20 years roughly.  I would also highly consider ESU's Cab control system.  Has touchscreen interface and a thumb wheel for tactile feedback, best of both worlds and the interface is so much more intuitive and clean.

However, battery power and RC is the direction I am going.  I am just about sold on Ring Engineering's Railpro system.  It can run track or battery power and while it is separate from DCC can also take DCC signals now if running track power.  A loco could be setup to run off either with a switch if one so wished to do so.

@TexasSP  Thanks for the response.  I have been leaning towards NCE (actually have a bid on one on Ebay right now).  I assume NCE and Digitrax hasn't changed is because DCC is standard...but I looked at the ESU system and it looks pretty good also.  Wonder if their base system will run O scale ..I didn't see how many AMPs their basic system was.  I was looking at the NCE 5 AMP to start since I have nothing yet..and will start with one engine probably no sound then upgrade to another 5 AMP if I go full on 2 rail.

Anyone here run the ESU system?  I saw that @SANTIAGOP23 does...the non handheld system (other than phone).  I watched a few of his videos...was very informative and looks like a good system.  

My main complaint with MTH is them losing the handheld remote.  I don't think I want a touchscreen/phone to run trains.  I do like the tactile feel of my Legacy remote now...and NCE looks similar.

Andy,

I've been using the ESU CabControl system since it came out. The built-in booster is 7A. That's plenty for what you want to do.  I added a second booster, also 7A which is their standard now.  Overall it's a great system imho.

However there's an important caveat: I found the first version of the MCII wireless handheld throttle that's included to be a great concept but poorly executed.  So did others from what I've read. It has a slow processor and runs a really old Android version: 4.1.x.  The wireless connection stability and operating speed are vey poor. I sold 2 of my 3 MCIIs when my ProtoThrottles arrived and the last MCII is just for managing track power etc. No one likes to use it for ops.

But recently ESU has launched a new version of the MCII with a much faster processor, more memory and running Android 6.x.  From what I've read online this solves all the issues.  So I would make sure to get the new version.

Plus if you use Loksound decoders as well, you can get the benefit of Railcom. 

But then you don't get NCE's great consisting feature of course.  Trade-offs... 

MTH's system updates for free in your home. So you can stay up to date with the latest features. The system sells $$ for less as a whole than others do. It has features built in that other systems don't have and some can't even do. No separate programmers needed.

 There are many positives to the system that guided my decision years ago. I stand by it still. When another system impresses me enough to leave, I will. Nothing has yet. DCC lags behind though many users will brag over one or two features that are advanced. I look at everything, not just the latest feature. I did not find Digitrax hard to use. I liked it a lot. I disliked how long it took to develop decoders with sounds capable of good power handling for the larger scales. I think that Loksound had the best. I just couldn't get it to work with my G scale back then.

 There was a rush just a few years back to go with another company in G scale offering better sounds ( supposedly). The boards fault was it couldn't handle the power. You had to provide on board cooling fan for operation. For some battery guys, that was no good. For me, it pointed to poor engineering. You can't have excess heat handled that way. I didn't even like the sounds. It didn't sound real, and I could identify it with my eyes closed.

 I'm sure someday soon battery will get together with wireless control and be what it can be. Until some big players get involved, I don't think it's there yet. I don't understand why when it' already in so many other things.

 When you pick a system, you have to deal with it's faults. Every system I've seen, has them. So pick your poison. The simple fact that so many users use different brands must tell us something.

Joe, 10 years ago you would be fairly correct.  However now, DCC has come a long way.  The ESU system is really nice, and has simplified and added to the abilities of DCC.  The Railpro system by all accounts is well ahead of many others in a variety of areas, especially loco consisting.

Right on Joe. DCS is a great system for sure. Some of the MTH sound packages are amazing, especially steam.  

The ESU CabControl ICU and MCII can also be updated online or with downloads, same as the Loskound decoders. But the problem with the early MCII was hardware - processor and memory - unfortunately.   

I dabbled with battery power and wireless DCC but converted the motor to coreless so I could use smaller batteries and an HO-rated decoder, rather than beef up the decoder and batteries to power a Pittman can motor. 

Seemed like a good idea at the time, and it all fit in an MP15AC (just). But I outsmarted myself because I couldn't get a good wireless signal in a brass loco shell, and the power converter for the smaller batteries only provided 11V to the decoder, which wasn't a good match for my exisiting DCC 15.5V track power. 

TEXASSP: From what I've seen the Railpro system seems a long way ahead on the control side with wireless loco-to-loco communications, but their sound files are limited so far.

If we could only combine the best 2-3 features of each system in one package we'd rule the world! 

Thanks guys....this is fun learning and reading about all the DCC systems.

I have no doubt DCS is a great system for 2 rail and 3 rail, but I really only want one system controlling my trains...so if I went to DCS, I would be limited to MTH engines only.  If I go anyones DCC I can run any 2 rail engine with DCC even -2 MTH engines especially with P3 and scale wheels.

I can't decide which system to get, but I am going to have fun figuring it out.  I do know I want wireless.  Even though NCE and DigiTrax can have multiple connections across the layout, wireless is nice...and to me worth the extra expense.

If ESU is 7 AMPS and come wireless at ~$389 vs NCE 5 AMP system wireless at $550...the NCE would have to be head and shoulder better to justify the $200 difference...

For those that have ESU, is it easy to add another 7 AMPs of power for future upgrade?  I saw a video of the NCE and it is plug and play (I think).

the ESU system is much more than $389.  I have NCE in my HO equipment and have been toying with the idea of adding it to my 3 rail and dumping TMCC and DCS. DCC is far ahead of TMCC and MTH DCS is just a cheap china   built rip off of the NCE system right down to the radio freq they use. DCS has many loyal followers but personally I know no one who has much luck with it including myself. the only thing i use mine for anymore is to run conventional stuff via the variable output. I like ESU decoders though as you install them once and can download any sound file from them as well as upgrades. DCC also has the advantage of the fact that you can use anybodys sound or loco decoders with any bodys DCC system.

Andy, I added a 7A booster, plug and play. 

Rick, the CabControl system can be had for US$ 389.95 at the larger DCC retailers. It comes with one MCII.  

Rick Rubino posted:

 MTH DCS is just a cheap china   built rip off of the NCE system right down to the radio freq they use. DCS has many loyal followers but personally I know no one who has much luck with it including myself. 

This would take this post way off topic in proper responses.

If you can't get it to work, I have to say that you first need to understand how it works. If you're not interested that's fine too. I don't think bashing it makes you look any better here. There are plenty of satisfied users. 

It works for me. It can be frustrating when it doesn't. It's usually something overlooked. Maybe I could help you?

Many people prefer systems that are bullet proof. There's not many that I've come across. Each has issues and a need for understanding. Poor wiring practices can make running big consists ****. They show you where your wiring is bad. Ground planes, snubbers, etc., etc., makes battery more enticing! 

The DCS system is very good. It has quirks like every other. The frequency it uses was common at the time, doesn't make it a copy 9f NCE. But, both Lionel and DCS are falling behind what DCC is doing now. DCC has its limitations too though. 

As for Railpro they have a great sound selection for diesel but are limited in steam. Tim Ring told me via email his is working on that right now though. The sounds I have heard are excellent and you can add your own custom sounds. 

There are no perfect systems and everything is a trade off in some area.  However if you use DCC you can get decoders and sounds for any scale and any loco.  Railpro serves HO through G and is working on N. DCS is O and MTH HO only.  Depends on your wants and needs.

I think we can all agree...whichever system we use DCC or DCS it is better than it was before digital control was invented.

Since I am going to "dabble" price is a big part of getting my feet wet.  Obviously, I still want a good DCC system.  I don't think I can go wrong with NCE or ESU.  Right now I am thinking of using ESU mainly because of cost...I would only buy a new one to make sure I got the latest version of handheld/android.

I am going to the O scale 2 rail show in Atlanta this weekend...hope to get lots more information on all things 2 rail!

This has been a great discussion of the many different control systems and methods use to power our trains.  Much appreciated for all the insights. 

While these astute gentleman have given you much to digest about 2 rail control systems, consider that 3 rail has that ridiculous looking black center rail which DOES prominently stand out.  I live with this on my layout...never looks correct....and i still wince whenever i run the trains. I vote that you go to 2 rail....it's more realistic.

TexasSP posted:

 DCS is O and MTH HO only.  Depends on your wants and needs.

DCS is also in the almost all but forgotten MTH S Scale product line.

Rusty

I would also add that I am probably one of the few here that use the MRC Prodigy 2 system.  It may not be as sophisticated as NCE or others, but it suits my needs.  I run Lionel/Flyer, MTH and Tsunami equipped S scale locomotives with no issues.  An added benefit is the common instructions are printed on the back of the handhelds, just in case I forget.

Rusty

redjimmy1955 posted:

While these astute gentleman have given you much to digest about 2 rail control systems, consider that 3 rail has that ridiculous looking black center rail which DOES prominently stand out.  I live with this on my layout...never looks correct....and i still wince whenever i run the trains. I vote that you go to 2 rail....it's more realistic.

The 3rd rail...that is what got me to thinking about 2 rail in the first place.  Maybe if I had started with O back in the day the 3rd rail would not bother me as much as it does, but I started with HO and am used to seeing 2 rails.  Since I run a carpet layout right now, the 3rd rail sticks out like a sore thumb to me.  I can't ballast my carpet!  

I love my Lionel Legacy Southern Crescent Steam engine..the whistle smoke, the sounds, etc, but I just can't get around the center rail.  I can live with the lobster claw couplers...but have already started looking into converting my 3 rail freight cars to 2 rail...

I have been talking to my wife about all of this...her eyes glaze over I am sure.  I told her I was going to buy some 2 rail stuff and try it out.  She said, I thought you were leaning in that direction anyway.

I even thought about going back to HO...but the beauty of 2 rail o scale is if I decide to run my HO (I am going to add a decoder in at least one engine), I can use whatever DCC system I buy to run my HO if I ever wanted.  Just swap some wires from one track to the other.  

Not sure how this thread (because I asked many questions) became a DCC systems thread, but I am enjoying it immensely.  

Rusty Traque posted:

TexasSP posted:

 DCS is O and MTH HO only.  Depends on your wants and needs.

DCS is also in the almost all but forgotten MTH S Scale product line.

Rusty

and one gauge! I get a chuckle out of some posts. Maybe bent reality to get a point across?

Andy:  Congratulations on considering going to 2 rail.  It sounds like you are like a lot of us…While you can make a spectacular layout in 3 rail and many have!, if you just can’t get past that center raiI, the bigger wheels and/or the huge couplers, then 2 rail is a mus

You are getting a lot of advice to go to DCC, and I am not going to even try and talk you out of it, particularly with your desire to have one system for both your HO and future O scale system.   But I’d like to point out that DCS /TMCC is a perfectly valid approach

I have a modest size (31 x 20 foot layout) which is controlled by DCS, While all but one of my locomotives run on DCS, I actually have very few MTH locomotives.  To get the PS3 “decoder” I buy the least expensive MTH RailKing Locomotive that has the sound set I want. The DCS system is the same between the Railking and Premier lines. I pull the DCS system and then sell the RK loco. My net cost is usually about $100.00 for a PS3 system

I also have TMCC to control one locomotive that I did not want to convert to DCS. A set of Lionel Legacy Sharks, which really liked the sound set.  TMCC and DCS are entirely compatable.

I "test drove" several types of control systems, manyof which are discussed, here before choosing DCS. I did so for a number of reasons, such as I like the feedback and the simple display on the handheld that saves me the trouble of remembering anything. But for me, the biggest advantage is I run heavy Pennsy Electrics, and DCS has by far and away the largest number of appropriate sounds

@John Sethian  Thanks, You gave a lot of information I don't think I knew.  I didn't really know you could run TMCC/Legacy in 2 rail, but I guess it makes sense...if the drive gear is 2 rail, then it can be controlled by TMCC.  I have seen some Atlas 2 rail locos that said TMCC, but didn't really know that's what it was.

I have one Atlas Diesel GP35 SAV&ATL that I want to keep, so I would love to convert to 2 rail, but I "assumed" I would put DCC in...and I probably will.  I could sell my Legacy 990 for decent money which will help pay for the new DCC system... (If I completely come over).  I am hoping I can test drive a DCC system or 2 this weekend before buying one.

Part of what I really like about DCC are the sounds...I am not a huge fan of crew talk in Lionel/MTH locos, but love the sounds from the ESU sound decoders.

Tonight I have been watching video and reading about converting MTH freight cars to scale wheels and Kadee couplers...pretty easy it seems since the premier line has the mounting points.  I bought my first 2 rail freight car on ebay the other night.  It will arrive Monday/Tuesday.

My mistake on MTH in S and G, however they have so little in those areas I had forgotten.

I love my DCS, but it really limits you.

OK going to my first 2 rail show tomorrow.  What should I be looking for as my first pieces of 2 rail...I have a wish list of Track, an engine, and to play with DCC systems.  

TexasSP posted:

My mistake on MTH in S and G, however they have so little in those areas I had forgotten.

I love my DCS, but it really limits you.

this whole post is just opinions and unfortunately, the facts are few. All we can do is try to keep it real. I have around 100 engines on hand at a given time. I run what I want, when I want.

 So how am I limited? and why do you ( and others) seem to keep bashing it?

How limited is DCC that you have to send the command system in for upgrades? that DCC decoder development has taken so long and now is supposedly ahead? Just how much $$ has to be invested to realize that potential?

I don't wish to sound like a salesman. I end up defending my choice over and over. I have to wonder why the spiteful comments come up so much against systems. I can't help but feel much of it, is from lack of understanding. I just try and clarify what this system can and can't do. I see other posters glossing over each system's flaws. I know what they are and don't wish to attack them. Just point out what can be misleading. Like buying batteries that a year later need replacing with extensive use. I have a pile of old cordless tools laying here to prove my point. Yet I like battery power and don't condemn anyone for going that way.

 So why do others seem like they are so against DCS use? Don't use it. I'm OK with that. Don't post untrue facts about it or I will have to defend it. I hate public forums more and more each day.

roll_the_dice posted:

OK going to my first 2 rail show tomorrow.  What should I be looking for as my first pieces of 2 rail...I have a wish list of Track, an engine, and to play with DCC systems.  

Enjoy. One note on MTH rolling stock. The older rolling stock didn't have Kadee mounting pads, but you can still convert them with minor modification (a little drilling, gluing a spacer in. On the early Auto Racks and 73-foot Centerbeam flats, you have to cut sections out of the chassis to move the trucks to their proper location, but it's not hard. Microfasterners.com will become your new best friend for 2-56 and 2mmx8 screws and nuts.

Andy, just

Seriously - my $0.02 worth: If you are OK with a Diesel first, then maybe a plastic 2-rail loco such as Atlas SW, MP15DC, GP7-9-35.  Those can be run on a NCE Powercab. 

If you fall for a plastic or brass loco with a Pittman or similar large can motor then the ESU CabControl system with its 7A booster would be a better bet.  The decoder for such motors will cost between 1.5 and 2x the HO one you could use in the Atlas locos. Examples of this type could be Weaver RS3, or GP38-2 which can be had cheap, but check they are complete and run well. Don't buy an older loco with an open frame motor unless you are up for a re-motoring project before you can run with DCC.

DON'T buy a DCC decoder until you have bought the loco. Then tell us what you bought and we can recommend the right deocder models you can choose from.

Freight cars: Weaver and "Old Atlas" freight cars can be had cheaply but are lower detail.  New Atlas freight cars are generally very nice and priced accordingly. MTH and Lionel have some nice scale-sized cars that can be converted easily to 2-rail, noting Matt's good point about the coupler pads. 

You may need a few packs of Kadee couplers to convert with.  And you may see Atlas, MTH and Lionel 2-rail conversion kits of just wheelsets or complete trucks for any conversions needed.   

Track-wise, there's "old Atlas" which is a bit clunky but quite usable. That comes in flex sections and #6 (approx) LH and RH switches. Black ties and chunky details are the clue.  Usually some used stuff at shows. It's from the 1970s and '80s so check the quality if used.  Don't buy the oldest Atlas ~24" switches as they are too tight for the above locos. 

New Atlas - brown ties and better detail - comes in flex sections and about 4 radii of sectional track. Plus #5 and #7.5 LH, RH and Y turnouts.  More realistic and more expensive.

There are a couple of new makes of 2-rail and P:48 turnouts, Signature Switch Co and O Scale Turnouts. Both are excellent in slightly different ways and cost about the same as new Atlas.    

My wallet is already whimpering in sympathy with yours - have fun!!  

Thanks @AGHRMatt ... I have some newer MTH cars that have the pads and Iam compiling a list of items I need to convert them.  Do you buy the scale trucks or just change out the wheelsets?

I suggest viewing Ebay under Model Trains for estimating cost . I started with an Atlas SW8/9 2 rail and 4 Atlas 2 rail box cars. My most pleasant surprise recently was the Atlas Trainman ESU CSX 8-40CW locomotive. Personally I buy only Atlas O 2 rail products.

Joe, not sure why you take different opinions and information as bashing. I have and use DCS. I don't hate nor bash it. I don't have brand loyalty,  I use what fits my wants/needs best.  Most DCC systems do not require they be sent in for updates now. The ESU systems ate mind blowing in features and their decoders are second to none for any digital system on the market today.  I have used DCS to run MTH HO.

There is no wrong answer to any of this. Not sure why anyone would get worked up over these discussions.

I am thankful there are so many great options today.  It's like Baskin Robbins,  don't like chocolate, well there's 30 more flavors. 

roll_the_dice posted:

Thanks @AGHRMatt ... I have some newer MTH cars that have the pads and Iam compiling a list of items I need to convert them.  Do you buy the scale trucks or just change out the wheelsets?

It depends. On my Centerbeam cars, I changed out the trucks from the MTH 3-rail to Weaver plastic trucks with Intermountain 33" steel wheels. On a pair of MTH gondolas, I switched the trucks out for MTH 2-rail trucks which gave the cars the correct ride height, then installed Kadee 740 couplers. On another car, I used the MTH hi-rail trucks with Intermountain wheels. It really depended on what I had in the parts bin at the time and which would be easier for the particular situation. Replacement trucks can get expensive, but the new MTH trucks are a pain to disassemble/reassemble. I'm looking at the newer Atlas 2-rail trucks which have the adapter plug for use with MTH cars. I have a project in the pipe -- converting two strings of MTH Gunderson cars to 2-rail. For now, each string is a massive "transition car" with a Kadee on one end of the string and the hi-rail coupler on the other with the hi-rail wheels still in place since I run them at the club (like I said, I'm operating in both worlds right now).

It’s easy to convert some MTH and Lionel rolling stock to 2-rail. A good example is the Lionel PS-2 2 bay covered hopper. It has excellent detail and is pretty light.

I used Atlas 70T roller bearing trucks and Kadee 743’s to do this conversion.

Great job Catnap! I agree Lionel makes a lot of really nice rolling stock that makes for great 2 rail conversions.

@Pete M  Thanks!  I appreciate your thoughts.  I "think" I hae taked myself into getting the ESU DCC system...I like the price with the amount of AMPs I will get, plus I like that wifi is all they offer (I think).  The only way I will buy a decoder is if it is already in an engine.  So if I buy one, I will definitely get advice here.  You guys have given me great advice so far.

I have pretty much decided I am coming over to the 2 rail side and will be selling my 3 rail stuff that won't convert overor I won't need...Legacy 990, a couple of steam engines, etc.

I have a 180w Lionel brick...will that be useful on the 2 rail side?

Also, what is your guys prefered Kadee couplers or does it depend on the car you are converting?

@AGHRMatt @catnap I only have maybe 10-12 Scale freight cars...a few MTH, the rest Lionel.  Once I get home, I will check to see what they look like in terms of mounting pads.  I know the 2 Premier MTH I have have them.  They are both single dome tank cars.  There is the Lionel Central of Georgia caboose (6-27657) I will want to convert over...so I looked at Atlas scale couplers with pickups for wiring the lighting and I assume the smoke unit will still work also.

Andy, as long as you're 100% sure the MCII throttle that comes with the ESU CabControl is running Andoid 6.x not 4.x as discussed, then you should find it works great. And yes, it's a WiFi throttle only. 

This way, you should be able to run any loco you buy that already has a DCC decoder in it, regardless of current draw. And you can probably find an older Weaver loco with a Pittman motor for a lot cheaper than a modern Atlas.

I'm not sure about the Lionel brick for 2-rail. The CabControl comes with the power supply, command station with booster and Wi-Fi inside, and one MCII throttle. Later you can add more ESU 7A boosters if needed, and they come with power supplies also.

Kadees come in "old" and "new" as well, like Atlas track. Old are in the 8xx series and have exposed jaw springs and are a bit less realistic-looking. The jaw springs are known to fly off during ops occasionally and you can never find them right away. They fly off so fast that they time travel into the future, so you will usually find them in the first place you looked, but only about a week later.  

But they work better on tight radii and are a bit easier to uncouple by hand with skewer etc.

The New are in the 7xx series. They look more realistic and the jaw spring is hidden, so they just work 100% of the time. However they don't have such a wide gathering angle as the Old, so not as reliable coupling under about 40" radius. 

804 and 805 are the "standard" old Kadee and 740 and 745 for the new. There are other versions with over and under shanks, longer reach, and short ones for P&D F Units.

The best combo for brass locos is metal coupler in a plastic box for insulation in case the brass shell is "live". Metal coupler in a metal box is good for mounting on plastic.

Hi there,

I'm a little late to the discussion. I'm using NCE 10 amp and have been for 10 years or more. It was easy to install and has worked flawlessly. This is for a 200 foot double track mainline with a long storage loop as well in a 24x26 space. I run some MTH engines as well as many others.

I keep the full variety of Kadee couplers on hand, old and new.

I also switched from 3 rail to 2 rail and it has been a totally new level of satisfaction.

I have a 10 amp NCE DCC system now with 4 10 amp boosters.  The first ones were powered by old fashioned iron core 180W transformers purchased from Tony’s Train Exchange (no longer offered).  For the newest booster install I purchased a second hand  Lionel 180W "brick" on eBay at a very nice price - works great.  Whatever DCC system you go for I would strongly encourage you not to rule out installing your own decoders later on as you gain experience - it is not hard at all.  Limiting your roster to only those locomotives with factory installed decoders unnecessarily narrows your field of play and in many cases comes at added cost.  

So I went to the train show yesterday!  Had a blast...I did not really buy much...no engine and no DCC system.  I almost bought a Central Locomotive Works engine, but just couldn't pull the trigger.  It had TCS DCC with WOW sound.  Sounded good, ran good, just was unsure.  I kind of regret it now.  It was over my starter engine budget by about $50 and the guy wouldn't budge on price.  Oh well...live and learn.  I will think about it and I am sure if I want it, I can find the seller.

The best part of the show were the people.  I met some GREAT people.  I did meet someone from Savannah, so we are going to get together and run some trains on his layout.  He doesn't have DCC (yet), but one of the things we talked about was trying to start on O scale 2 rail club in Savannah!  He said he knew of 1 or 2 more people in the area.   

I went in this as a fact finding mission and found out lots from you guys coupled (kadee) with the people I met at the show...I feel I have a better understanding of what I am looking for...and want to do.

I met @Brother_Love, @atlpete, and @luvindemtrains to name a few.  Thanks for the hospitality guys and I look forward to your next show. 

@Pete M  Can you point me to the information you have seen about what ESU android version is out there?  I emailed a vendor and they said the latest version is 4.2.5.  I could not find any information on ESU's website or when I tried to google it...and I couldn't find an email address for ESU on their website..which actually kind of concerns me for support.

Andy, there's some mystery about this. Here's a thread about the new MCII throttle. It has better processor and memory and runs Android 6.x.

 https://www.google.ca/url?q=ht...E0Sj453Z-yemFXru3JG9

Also you can find more in the Loksound group on Groups.io

It's not been publicized by ESU yet but a few new owners seem to  have the new version.

That's an interesting read Pete.  Thanks for posting.  I like the ESU, but after reading that I am not sure $200 savings is worth the trouble.  I signed up for their forum this morning, but have not been approved yet...

Yeah, it's a cryin' shame the first MCII throttle wasn't well executed because it's got some nice features. And I do wish ESU would talk about their apparent upgrade plan more openly. 

Anyway, let's focus on what we can change!  

I don't use the MCII since ProtoThrottle came along, but the CabControl system itself works great: fast and reliable. But if I had to pick another DCC system today I would likely go with NCE because I like to run Diesel consists and NCE has a really nice consisting feature.

So if budget permits, NCE will be a good choice for you. Local support and you may not need a larger booster at first, depending on which loco you get.   

I'm going to try to find out more about the ESU android version, but if I had to buy today I would buy the 5 amp NCE wireless.  Tonys has it as inexpensively as I have seen at $549.95.  I don't think I want to go the ebay route and buy used...just never know how someone treats their equipment.

Edit:  I just found a contact form on ESU's website...had to google it!  Anyway, I asked what version of Android they are currently using...We shall see.  After I submitted the form, it said it may take up to 14 days to respond!!

Since your dabbling maybe reach out to the Yankee Dabbler regarding the ESU Cab Control System, they seem to be the ones who have the most ESU in stock.

TexasSP posted:

Since your dabbling maybe reach out to the Yankee Dabbler regarding the ESU Cab Control System, they seem to be the ones who have the most ESU in stock.

I thought the same thing...I emailed Tonys a few questions...and this was their reply to my questions...I asked:

Do they have them in stock, What version of Android were the ESU systems and which system they liked better?

Their response:

1. Both are in stock
2. Android version 4.1.1
3. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. 
4. • Both are coequal in terms of capability
   • NCE's system has a long history of reliable performance
   • ESU is a new system with no real historical data regarding reliability
   • Android allows for updates
   • We like the tactile feel of the NCE throttle
5. We're all users of the NCE system, the ESU has some great capability but the throttle can be fidgety
6. NCE= old school but super easy to use and reliable

You might just get me off the fence to restart my 2 rail layout plans.  Right now I am struggling to find the small brass steamer I want.  I am trying to find a built up Kemtron Wabash Mogul, its very close in design to East Jordan & Southern #6.   And I live very close to the old Wabash main line and railfan it on a regular basis.  I had one and like a dummy let it go.  I have finally given up on HO, its just getting to hard to see to make it satisfiying anymore.   O scale is much better.     Cheers  Mike

OK, so I am not going to dabble.  I am coming over...   I found a 2 rail guy at the show that is local, so that helped spur me to completely come over.  I am about to start listing most of my 3 rail equipment for sale to fund most everything.  Sold an engine last night which will pay for most of the DCC system (once he pays).  All of my Scale freight cars will be converted over to 2 rail.  I have a deal to sell my favorite 3 rail engine...the Lionel 6-11334 Southern Crescent from 2012 to a board member...so no reason to continue 3 rail without it.   Now will have to find a Crescent for the 2 rail one day...in no hurry, but it will be a must have along with passenger cars one day.

I have decided to go the NCE route.  I just can't decide whether to do the 5 amp or 10 amp system. Then need to decide wireless vs wired.  I know I can upgrade at anytime...so either the 5 amp with wireless for $549 at Tonystrains.com...least expensive I have seen.  Or bite the Bullet and go 10 AMP wired to start @ $509...then if I want to go wireless upgrade from there.  I can use my 180w Lionel brick to power the 10amp system which will save some $.

I think I am getting an Atlas GP-15 engine from a friend and will put a decoder in it.  Once I get it, I will ask advice on decoders...no need to ask now until I have the engine.  Although the 10amp system comes with an NCE D408 4 amp decoder.

I am looking at Microengineering flex track code 148 and Atlas 36" radius to start....thoughts?  Just to get a loop of track to run the egnine.  Do they play well together?  Recommendations?  I have some in my cart on JDstrains.com.  Better place to purchase?

What else am I forgetting?

I would go wireless first as you won't need the 10 amps right away and not being tethered makes life easier, especially when testing and setting up a layout.  Before I had 2 way wireless on my Digitrax layout in HO this was always the biggest paint.  I actually over bought on boosters in the beginning and never used what I had.  Granted this was HO however that 5 amps will be plenty to start with.

Get the 10 amp system. It will serve your needs far longer into the future.

also, invest in at least 42” radii, 48” is even better. Again for the future.

roll_the_dice posted:

What else am I forgetting?

Try to have fun....

OK, so I like most of you are big researchers before I purchase anything.  I was set to buy the 5 amp wireless system and I found the 10 amp wireless at an unbelievable price...the same price as the 5 amp plus power supply.  Since I am going to use my Lionel brick for the 10 amp system, I couldn't pass up the amazing deal on this system.  I also ordered a Kadee coupler height gauge and some kadee couplers to start converting.  Still need to get some trucks or wheel sets.  I am stoked...I am afraid they are going to say the price was a mistake...fingers crossed!

Very nice, can't argue with that. 

That's great news Andy!  You've got it all covered.   

The D408SR will be more than enough for motor drive and lights in an Atlas dual-motor loco such as the GP35.  And for sure we can help you with the install and programming.   If you decide you want sound as well, then Loksound, TCS and Soundtraxx offer some great options with all the latest bells and whistles.  Well, bells and horns in this case, but you get the gist.    

Looking forward to your next update!

roll_the_dice posted:

  I have some in my cart on JDstrains.com.  Better place to purchase ?

 

Better do a search here on the OGR Forum about them.

SZ

Steinzeit posted:

roll_the_dice posted:

  I have some in my cart on JDstrains.com.  Better place to purchase ?

 

Better do a search here on the OGR Forum about them.

SZ

Yeah someone emailed me earlier that they had closed...no wonder the prices looked good!

Pete M posted:

That's great news Andy!  You've got it all covered.   

The D408SR will be more than enough for motor drive and lights in an Atlas dual-motor loco such as the GP35.  And for sure we can help you with the install and programming.   If you decide you want sound as well, then Loksound, TCS and Soundtraxx offer some great options with all the latest bells and whistles.  Well, bells and horns in this case, but you get the gist.    

Looking forward to your next update!

Thanks Pete...Yeah I feel like I got a great deal!  I will feel better when I get tracking.   I will keep you posted as I do more...I need to get track next.

AGHRMatt posted:

Microfasterners.com will become your new best friend for 2-56 and 2mmx8 screws and nuts.

Well said Matt.  After my recent convertathon I'm ready to place yet another order!  

AGHRMatt posted:

roll_the_dice posted:

Thanks @AGHRMatt ... I have some newer MTH cars that have the pads and Iam compiling a list of items I need to convert them.  Do you buy the scale trucks or just change out the wheelsets?

It depends. On my Centerbeam cars, I changed out the trucks from the MTH 3-rail to Weaver plastic trucks with Intermountain 33" steel wheels. On a pair of MTH gondolas, I switched the trucks out for MTH 2-rail trucks which gave the cars the correct ride height, then installed Kadee 740 couplers. On another car, I used the MTH hi-rail trucks with Intermountain wheels. It really depended on what I had in the parts bin at the time and which would be easier for the particular situation. Replacement trucks can get expensive, but the new MTH trucks are a pain to disassemble/reassemble. I'm looking at the newer Atlas 2-rail trucks which have the adapter plug for use with MTH cars. I have a project in the pipe -- converting two strings of MTH Gunderson cars to 2-rail. For now, each string is a massive "transition car" with a Kadee on one end of the string and the hi-rail coupler on the other with the hi-rail wheels still in place since I run them at the club (like I said, I'm operating in both worlds right now).

Something I've done is standardize on the Atlas thinwall trucks for all of my conversions.  Sure it's more expensive but I've developed a knowledgebase of what each car takes to accept that truck.  For example, I was just finishing some moderneraoscale boxcars and realized those cars are setup for a more realistic bolstered truck, like the protocraft trucks, not the Atlas style with a hump in the center of the bolster.  In  the past I would have just milled that down, but I've started using James Lincolns replacement bolsters for these new atlas trucks that not only give a much better appearance but also have flush mounting options.  Not the cheapest route to go, but turns out really nice! 

Pete M posted:

 

The best combo for brass locos is metal coupler in a plastic box for insulation in case the brass shell is "live". Metal coupler in a metal box is good for mounting on plastic.

Totally agree with Pete here.  While I have standardized on Kadee 740's I also have some plastic gearboxes for such scenarios.  However, I really prefer the metal gearboxes and install them 80%+ of the time. 

OK, so I want to convert a Lionel Caboose to 2 rail.  It is item # 6-27657.  Looks like the truck is held in with an E-clip.  I want to keep the lights in the caboose and the smoke unit if possible.  Do the Atlas Caboose trucks attach with E-clips or screws?  What would the best truck for this job be?  OR should I sell it and buy a different caboose and paint it how I want?  Thanks

Not 100% sure on Lionel cabooses , but certainly the atlas caboose trucks will give you a leg up on electrical pickup. I don't run many cabooses as I model more present day operations.   I'm sure someone else can shed some light on converting lionel cabooses and maintaining the lights, smoke, etc.   

I was thinking about getting one of those lionel cabooses with the camera, but haven't yet... 

Andy, the Atlas 2R trucks typically mount with a screw from underneath.
https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-273...-caboose-trucks.aspx

Their caboose truck come with pickups installed. The most important measurement comparisons will be the height above the railhead of the bolster-to-truck pivot interface, and the ID and OD of the truck and bolster mounting bosses.  The screw size and thread type is the other thing to note.

Sometimes you get lucky like in Catnap's example above and the Atlas truck will bolt right onto a Lionel car. And sometimes not. In which case you may need drilling and filing or adding of washers to get a nice smooth truck pivot and the car at the proper height for looks as well as getting the Kadee at the right height.

Of course you can also space the Kadee down, but don't get sucked into over-lowering the car height so the Kadee mount can't get back up to proper height.  Not that anyone would be foolish enough to make that mistake...    

Thanks Pete!  I am going to order a the trucks and see what I can do.  

I bought an engine today.  An Atlas Trainman Dash 8-40CW DC, so I will want to add the NCE decoder to it when I get the engine and decoder...what sound board would you look at?  I may run it without sound to start, but am curious what you would put in it?

That is a one big 6-axle loco and will need some wide radius curves, e.g. something 50" (or 60" would even be better) to not drag freight cars off the tracks due to the overhang when going around curves.  Remember, no swinging pilots with 2 Rail, so you need wide radius curves with these big 6-axle locos and no short cars coupled to the loco unless you are running on some wide radius curves. 

As for the decoder for this loco that has both great motor control and excellent sound, then get this one:

Order this ESU Loksound V5 L sound decoder and ask for the "GE 16-7FDL Modern - S0719" sound file shown below to be loaded on it.

https://tonystrains.com/produc...ale-sound-decoder-ge

You can hear a sample if you scroll down to this ESU Loksound page and open up the link for the "GE 16-7FDL Modern"

http://projects.esu.eu/project...;type=all&cat=18

Use this speaker in the link below, if at all possible.  It has very good low end and these big GEs are very "bassy" but not sure if it will fit in the fuel tank both lengthwise or height-wise.  If it doesn't fit, you may be able to make some sort of elevated platform to mount above the decoder atop the frame between the two vertical motors above the trucks.  There will be lots of room between the motors for a decoder and possibly an elevated speaker, which would be an optimal location as it would be right below the exhaust stack so the sound will be coming out right at the stack.  Those fuel tanks are pretty big though, so it may very fit in the tank if you cut off the mounting tabs from the speaker.

https://www.parts-express.com/...1-2-x-1-1-8--264-944

Scott

Dear Andy,

Since you are going the DCC power route, why didn't you buy the ESU DCC equipped Trainman GE ?

I believe I paid $365.00 each for my 6 and they are take out of the box ready to go. Also a great value for a DCC O scale loco.

John P. Dunn Sr. Scale2Rail Promotions

jdunn posted:

Dear Andy,

Since you are going the DCC power route, why didn't you buy the ESU DCC equipped Trainman GE ?

I believe I paid $365.00 each for my 6 and they are take out of the box ready to go. Also a great value for a DCC O scale loco.

John P. Dunn Sr. Scale2Rail Promotions

Hi John...I was looking at the same engine with ESU DCC...I think it was in the $390 range plus shipping.  I bought the DC version for under $200...so even adding a nice ESU decoder, I will be around $325 for the engine with DCC and sound.  Plus this one was already lightly weathered.  I think yours has working ditch lights which is nice...mine won't...only drawback.  Should be here Monday or Tuesday.

There were a few MTH O scale locomotives, that were set-up, (3-2).  Primarily 3 rail, but had a switch, bottom of tender (3-2), and the wheels, though large flanges, were insulated/isolated, to allow the removal of the third rail pic-up, power from the Left and Right rail.   Russian Decapod is (3-2).    Click on the underlined phrase to link pictures of the Russian Decapod.   DCS units were designed for both AC and DC operation.   The large flange, O gauge wheels, would require Code 200+ rails and switches. 

Interesting manufacturing system, designed to streamline production of both two rail and three rail models, IMO  ???   Mike CT. 

@Scott Kay  Thanks!  I will definitely take a look at ESU as they always have great sound.  I am getting an NCE decoder with my 10amp system...so I may use it to start and look for an additional sound board.  Just depends whether I buy any other engines.

@Mike CT  I knew about the MTH -2 engines with scale wheels, but not about these.  Are these proto2?  I think all their scale wheel engines are proto3...but not sure.  I will definitely get a MTH 2 rail engine at some point.  

I am also looking at a KTM brass GP35...I think that is why I went with the 10 amp system.  I didn't want to be hindered if I found an energy hog engine I liked.

@Mike CT  I knew about the MTH -2 engines with scale wheels, but not about these.  Are these proto2?   Marked on the box Proto2  I think all their scale wheel engines are proto3...but not sure.  I will definitely get a MTH 2 rail engine at some point.  

I have 2 Trainman Dash 8-40CW's and they will handle a 49.5" radius curve with no problem. 89' flat cars are no problem either. Anything below a 45" radius may become an issue unless you make some modifications to longer cars or add a shorter buffer car in between. Make sure you avoid "S" curves unless you plan on placing a long straight between them (at least 30").

Scott is correct about the sound file if you decide to go that route. That is the default sound file that Atlas used in their Trainman Dash 8's and it's also the same file I loaded into my Master Dash 8-40B, right down to the Nathan K3HA air horn. The horn may or may not be correct but it sounds good and looks like one to boot.

More great advice in this thread!  I would add to Scott's comments that you may be able to fit the next size up of Tang Band speaker - TB1931s - in the fuel tank if you cut the end tabs off. Well worth it for th extra 50Hz of bass imho. In my latest Atlas install a put the TB1931 facing up in the fuel tank and cut away the chassis above the speaker to let the air move.

Regarding decoders, I'm not sure if there's an add-on sound board that works with a D408SR. Back in the day I used Soundtraxx DSX I think. But sadly that combo won't run or sound anwywhere near as good as a LS5 DCC L decoder.

The starting off and slow running is hard to do well with the Atlas dual-motor drive.  The D408SR does OK at this, but the LS5 DCC does a far better job of smoothing out the cheap can motors in these locos imho. Here's my first LS5 DCC in action in a consist after some tuning. Atlas C424 chassis on the left:

    And here's the sound from the LS5 DCC.  The C424 prime mover fires up first .  Both locos have the TB1931s.   

Do you guys wire your Atlas can motors in series for better slow speed operation?

I also just noticed on your video Pete...it says HO decoders..?

There are no "sound boards" for the NCE D408SR.- the old Soundtraxx sound only DSX's are no longer offered.  The D408SR is a very rugged no-sound decoder - (4 amp continuous, 8 amp stall rating) .  One option would be to install it in a older locomotive that you don't particularly want or need sound in.  The other option is to sell it on-line (check out the no fee O Scale Yard Sale) and apply the proceeds toward purchase of a full function sound decoder.

I wired my AtlasO "China Drive" Erie Built" FM's in series for smoother starts.  They are drag freight units on my railroad so I didn't mind giving up some top end speed for smoother starts. 

I do wire my dual motor drives in series. This gives better starting and slow running.  But it reduces pulling power for heavier loads as one truck can spin its wheels before the other as load increase and take all the power, stopping the loco. 

I use LS HO decoders because I found I can get away with it having no grades and max 15 cars per loco. Plus I have become totally obsessed with smooth starting, slow running and sound quality. 

That's why I replace the Pittman can motors found in some older locos with smaller coreless Maxon or Faulhaber gearheads. 

The LS5 DCC "L" is a great all-round choice for O scale, and one advantage over the LS5 DCC HO is that you get a built-in keep-alive.  And because the KA is LS' own version, you can program it on Lokprogrammer or DCC programming track without having to disconnect it.

I wire the motors in parallel. I wired them in series first but found that a lot of the speed steps were redundant and the locos were in run 8 before they got to about 25 smph. After about speed step 80 the speed curve increased exponentially before a loco would top out around 40-45 smph at speed step 126.

Parallel wired can motors still give stellar low speed performance albeit not spread out over as many speed steps, I'm not too concerned about my locos increasing speed in 0.6 or 0.7 smph increments when moving from a dead stop. My locos top out at a more prototypical 60-65 smph when they are wired in parallel but then again I don't run a switching layout where more finite control is desired.

Bottom line is that a good decoder, and my experience is limited to ESU LokSound L's and XL's, will clean up the slop from a cheap DC can motor. My locos usually smooth out at speed step 4 or 5 in 128-speed step mode with the motors wired in parallel and that is certainly good enough for my running preferences.

@Keystoned Ed  No sound needed on everything...since I got a free board I will use it on something!  Thanks for the information.

@Pete M  I won't have any grades right now either...I assume even with an HO decoder you are using a larger speaker?

@catnap  This engine won't be used for switching since it is a fairly large engine...so maybe parallel will be better for this one and in series will be better for smaller switching engines in the yard.  Great info!

I just want to say THANKS to everyone that has contributed so far.  This thread was way more than I bargained for and the amount of information is awesome!  Great thread IMHO.  Can't wait to get my engine and the DCC system to run some trains!

You will need some of these to keep the trains running... 

Andy: Yes, one reason for swapping out motors so I can use "HO-sized" decoders is to fit even bigger speakers as well as getting better starting and slow running.

For example this P&D F7B chassis which is basically a Tang Band 1942s with a truck at each end  

  I don't run my locos this loud for ops sessions but the extra bass still gets one's attention. 

Mike CT posted:

There were a few MTH O scale locomotives, that were set-up, (3-2).  Primarily 3 rail, but had a switch, bottom of tender (3-2), and the wheels, though large flanges, were insulated/isolated, to allow the removal of the third rail pic-up, power from the Left and Right rail.   Russian Decapod is (3-2).    Click on the underlined phrase to link pictures of the Russian Decapod.   DCS units were designed for both AC and DC operation.   The large flange, O gauge wheels, would require Code 200+ rails and switches. 

Interesting manufacturing system, designed to streamline production of both two rail and three rail models, IMO  ???   Mike CT. 

There were MTH Scale Wheel locomotives that were Proto 2. The locomotive pictured above is indeed Proto 2. You can tell by the polarity switch. Proto 3 does not have a polarity switch. Also Proto 2 doesn’t have DCC capability. Only Proto 3 has DCC. 

Pete M  very interesting drive on this B unit. could you tell me more. is it commercially avalable  or is this something you built. I have replaced some of my gear towers with the 360 engineering ones and this is a good improvement but I like the idea of smaller motors like yours , my layout is a branch line so i never have much of a load on the locos.   Rick

Rick, it is commercially available from Jay Criswell.  I don't want to break the rules here re vendors, so pm me or email me at: gp9u at rogers dot com   and I'll be happy to share more details.

Pete 

@Scott Kay  Thanks for the recommendation on the sound board.  Quick question...if I were to buy that Loksound decoder with the GE 16-7FDL Modern soundfile pre-loaded...can the sound be changed at a later date if I ever wanted to use that decoder in a different engine?  Thanks!

Yes, you can change the sound file at any time; however, you need to invest in a LokProgrammer (~$150) to do so (or know someone that has one to do it for you).  You cannot use free software, such as JMRI, to upload a sound file on ESU decoders.  However, JMRI freeware can be used to adjust CVs for the sound file that is currently installed in the decoder.  

https://tonystrains.com/produc...-53452-lokprogrammer

Scott

Thanks Scott...That is what I thought, but wanted to make sure...nothing I need soon, but nice to have the option.

Scott Kay posted:

Yes, you can change the sound file at any time; however, you need to invest in a LokProgrammer (~$150) to do so ...

Does the LokProgrammer only make changes to aftermarket ESU Loksound decoders? Or, can it also be used  to make changes … change the prime mover package, etc … to the decoders that come factory installed in Atlas locomotives? Such as whenever Atlas ships new SW and MP15 switchers

Thanks

EBT Jim posted:

Scott Kay posted:

Yes, you can change the sound file at any time; however, you need to invest in a LokProgrammer (~$150) to do so ...

Does the LokProgrammer only make changes to aftermarket ESU Loksound decoders? Or, can it also be used  to make changes … change the prime mover package, etc … to the decoders that come factory installed in Atlas locomotives? Such as whenever Atlas ships new SW and MP15 switchers

Thanks

Someone can give a better answer than I can for sure, but I was watching a video this morning after I read Scotts reply...and to my knowledge if it is an ESU 4, 5, or select decoder whether you buy it aftermarket or it came in the loco, you can change prime mover, sounds, and set up functions for the engine/decoder.  So short answer Yes (unless someone smarter than I knows differently)

Here's my unerstanding so far:

Loksound V4, Select and LS5 allow users to upload ESU sound files as well as firmware updates. Some loco manufacturers use proprietary sound files but not all are available on the ESU site. 

Generally you can write a soundfile downloaded from the ESU site onto a Loksound V4, Select and LS5. But if you over-write a proprietary sound file you can't get it back if it's not on the ESU site and the loco manufacturer won't share it with you. That's because ESU doesn't allow the sound portion of files to be saved from a decoder onto your computer, just the CV settings portion. That's to protect their sound recording IP.

Some manufacturers used an "Essentials" version of the Select which lacked some features but I think this was mainly in HO.

All LS versions have all CVs adjustable by the user. As well Loksound V4 and LS5 decoders offer the capability to edit and write your own sound files. Select does not.

Loksound V4 and Select are now the previous generation.

Today ESU offers just the LS5 range in two variants:  LS5 DCC for North America and Australia, and LS5 for Europe and other markets. The LS5 DCC version supports only DCC protocol and has a few changes to better align it with US manufacturers such as Soundtraxx and TCS, mainly in momentum, braking and speed matching. 

There is no LS5DCC version of the "XL" but there is for the "L" and smaller sizes.

The LS5 supports other protocols such as Motorola, M4 and Selectrix not commonly found in North America and Australia.

All LS5s have the sound file editor capability.

I hope I'm on the right track here, anyone please LMK if not! So far the above has been borne out by my own experiences with LS at least.

OK, as I wait for my DCC system and engine to be delivered...I am contemplating a shelf switching layout in the 12'x2' variety...maybe 14'x2' (30" max width).  I have been looking at turnouts and read many posts about them.  Mainly I have looked at Signature Switch and Oscale Turnouts...any preference of one over the other?  Pros and cons?  

I have also read things about turnouts being dcc ready?  What does that entail?  And do I care?  Thanks!

Here is a good website for DCC wiring topics in general:

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/

Here is a sub link talking about DCC Friendly turnouts:

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm

Scott

Andy, what follows is purely my opinion based on my own experience.  

I think you can have a lot of fun with a switching layout in O scale.  I sure do! 

Regarding switches: I would say Signature Switch Co. are robust, accurate, consistent and reliable. As well they are "DCC friendly" out of the box which I will expand on below. I have several in Code 148 rail including regular #6 LH and RH and as well as 3-way curved which I use to increase siding capacity in staging.  They can be had in a range of standard sizes and custom one-offs as well.

However they lack the finer detailing parts and visual accuracy of O Scale Turnouts. 

I don't own any O Scale Turnouts switches but I understand they are made using fine scale components including highly detailed frogs, switch rails, guard rails, tie bars etc. which result in an almost "P:48-like" scale accuracy (except for the gauge of course).    Visually superb with options for how much detail you prefer and work you want to do.  I do have some turnouts built from these components (just not as accurately because I lack the skills)  and they look amazing. These can be made DCC friendly with a little work.

The only slight concern I have is that some of the coarser 2-rail wheel profiles with deeper flanges may not run quite as smoothly through them because they are so accurate.  This is not the fault of the turnouts. They are perfect with closer-to-scale-profile wheels such as NWSL .145. 

As for DCC friendly, this generally means turnouts where all rails and the frog are powered in such a way that there's no possibility of power loss or short circuit as equiment rolls through. 

The links Scott posted are a great help.

In pracitice it means that the frog is isolated and powered correctly for the selected route from a Tortoise switch, a Frog Juicer or similar.  As well closure rails are powered the same as their adjacent stock rails, and switch rails (if hinged) have their own flexible feeders. This way they don't rely on pressure against the stock rail or a power path through their hinge.

The Signature Switch Co turnouts have one-piece switch rails and closure rails so there's no need to feed them separately. They're DCC friendly because power is carried to all the right areas by the PCB ties that are gapped appropriately which also isolates the frog.  You just need to power the frog separately.

I am not certain about how O Scale Turnouts are wired except to say that the frog would be isolated ready to be powered. I just found out the switch rails on these are one-piece also which is good. Not sure if the closure rails may need to be wired to their stock rails,  I think not after a bit more reading.

Summary (opinion again): If you want the best accuracy and realism go for O Scale Turnouts but you may need to add some feeders, plus limit your choice of wheelsets a bit.

If you want bullet-proof running for most wheelsets and maybe a bit less wiring, but less accurate details, then go with Signature Switch Co.

When I converted from 3-rail to 2-rail while still using 3-rail wheels, I asked Signature Switch to make #6 switches for 3-rail size wheels.  The switches work fine and mate nicely with code 148 Atlas and Micro Engineering track.  I think Brad modified the depth and width dimensions of the frogs so the 3-rail wheels would work and so far I have had zero problems.

I bought a load of 2-rail wheel sets a while back and attempted to convert some of my rolling stock to 2-rail only to find they will not work going thru the frogs of the  custom #6 switches.

 I converted 6 cars and will be converting them back to 3-rail for now. I’d rather have trouble free operation than wheels with smaller flanges that keep derailing. When the trains are moving it’s hard to tell anyway. I don’t think simply shimming the frogs will fix it so I can use 2-rail wheelsets.

Pete M posted:

Andy, what follows is purely my opinion based on my own experience.  

I think you can have a lot of fun with a switching layout in O scale.  I sure do! 

 

 

Pete,

Would it be possible to post your track plan here on OGR if you have one?  If not, maybe a couple of photos?  Is your empire basement sized or bedroom sized?  Thanks.

@Scott Kay  Thanks for the links...I am a research nerd and will enjoy reading those and learning more.

@Pete M  Opinion or not...I appreciate your insight on the matter.  That was a good read.  Right now, I am looking more for bullet proof than anything else.  I don't know enough about wheelsets and what not to make those discerning choices yet.  I figure once the track/switches are ballsted 99% of anyone will not notice the details.  Do these use the Atlas rail joiners as well if I use Atlas or ME track?  @Amfleet25124 beat me to it...I was going to ask if you had plans of your layout or an overhead shot?  Also...dimensions.  

I think I can get a 14'x2' shelf layout fairly easily in the space I have.

Andy, the rail joiners are usually specified by the rail code.

"New" Atlas flex track and switches are Code 148. That's roughly equivalent to modern main line rail. There's also Code 125 flex track made by ME, and years ago Old Pullman which you can still find used sometimes. That equates roughly to older mainline and modern branch line and siding tracks.  As well there's code 100 rail that you'd use to hand-lay your track for steam era and light rail trackage into the Diesel era.

O Scale Turnouts and Signature Switch Co can make turnouts with Code 148, 125 and 100. I suspect they make mostly Code 148 for the modern era modellers and Code 125 for Steam an early Diesel era.

So you'll want to get rail joiners for Code 148 or 125 accordingly.  Atlas offers some slightly clunky "fake joint bar" joiners for their Code 148.  ME I think offers their more discrete ones in Code 148 and 125.   You can find them at the well-known 2-rail vendors.  As well you can get very nice cast scale joiners in both sizes from Right-O'-Way.      

My layout plan is below.  Click on the attachement for a clearer view.

I am very fortunate to have a basement about 39ft x 25ft less the garage.  It's bascially a freelance shortline having a small central yard with one switching area to the east and two to the west.  There's staging at each end to connect to the "rest of the world".

But if you look at each switching area separately, I think they could each be shelf layouts in their own right.  Might need to add a switching lead for headroom, maybe on a narrow drop-down or lift-out section.

Because it's modern era, I have one or two larger industries with multiple spots in each area rather than several smaller industries.  But each spur may have up to 6 spots, each of which may require a specific product/car type in a specific spot. Plus not all cars are ready to be pulled every session so sometimes cars have to be moved and re-spotted.

As well there may be off-spot cars stored in a siding that need to be switched first before the industries. So each area can take more than an hour to switch with a 2-person crew.     

Here's a few clips of the switching jobs:

https://www.youtube.com/playli...pWGXAKZmSQ1c-zvvdOnz

I hope this is helpful. Happy to share more if of interest of course.

Thank you Pete M.

With the exception of my holiday themed rolling stock, I've been gravitating towards scale-sized equipment (not 2-Rail though) the last year. or so  As I don't have a current layout, I'm only able to run trains at my multi-gauge club, where the O is 3-rail and there is a lot of support and assistance if needed (very important IMO).  I've been hesitant to try 2-Rail because then I would have nowhere to run the trains.  I'm into post 1970's equipment and long 70+ foot freight and passenger cars, so it restricts the radius and type of layouts that I can think about conceptually.  

BTW, I just subscribed to your channel 

Kevin, thanks for subscribing!

You might find that radius isn't too much of an issue.  The curve around the end of the peninsular on my plan is 36" radius. I run only 4-axle Diesels but I also have 73ft Centerbeams and an 80ft business car with 2-axle trucks. Everything gets around that curve with no issues. I did have to make "fine adjustments" to a couple of my brass locos.

To be fair it would be hard to couple or uncouple on that curve. But it's is mainly hidden by scenery and a view block so it's not an issue.  The rest of the visible layout is 48" radius and above. Manual coupling and uncoupling works great with Kadee 8xx and 7xx series couplers.

After watching some of PeteM's videos, I can certainly understand how O scale can tug at one's modeling "givens n' druthers".

The heft and size of the engines and rolling stock, along with the nice sized speakers that can be installed within the engines, really makes for some visual and auditory impact.

By the way: Nice layout, Pete!

Andre

Thank you Andre!  I'm a big fan of your layout build which I follow on MRH. 

I do find O scale is good at the "in your face" feel of railfanning switching operations. The down side is that it's really hard to model distance or a sense of running a train in open country between towns. Well, unless one's wallet is a lot larger than mine!   

Andy:

Do you have a trackplan yet? 14' x 2' (30" max) ought to make a pretty neat urban/industrial layout in O 2r.

PeteM:

Thank you on the kind words about my layout build. No layout construction is taking place right now as I'm enjoying operating with my friends. (So no updates to my build thread at MRH.) However, I will start "Phase 2" once the weather is too hot to do fun stuff outside. "Phase 2" will be to install/seal/smooth/paint blue the backdrop boards, installing overhead LED strip lighting on the upper/lower levels including valance for same, and adding front fascia to all benchwork. I figure this will take most of the summer, so train running will be nixed until Phase 2 is accomplished.

Also looking forward to the day that I can start my little L-shaped shelf urban/industrial Kansas City "West Bottoms District". I love little end cab switchers in the big city and I love road/road switcher powered trains battling the Ozark Mountains. The two weren't compatible, so having two manageable layouts was my answer! I already have a "Definite Maybe" starting point for a trackplan:

Of course, the above won't be built exactly as illustrated, but I do like the basic components including the wye in the corner. Okay, enough of me interupting Andy's thread. I encourage you to stop by over at one of my MRH threads and share input.

Andre

laming posted:

Andy:

Do you have a trackplan yet? 14' x 2' (30" max) ought to make a pretty neat urban/industrial layout in O 2r.

...

Andre

Andre...I don't have a plan yet.  I just came up with the idea of the switching layout.  I did measure this morning and I think the size will have to be 12'x2', but I think I can definitely get my feet wet with 2 rail this way.  We are only going to be in this house for about another 1 1/2-2 years.  We are moving once my daughter starts college.  So I am not sure what I will get done with landscaping the layout, but I would like to have it operational anyway.

Any help designing/ideas would be appreciated!

Oh, I think I have decided to use the Signature Switch turnouts...now I just need to start the layout design.

I received my Atlas Dash 8 engine today.  It is a beast...pictures don't do the size justice.  I think it is 18" long.  I don't have 2 rail track yet, but I couldn't resist testing it.  I ran it on 3 rail track with an old DC transformer I had lying around.  It ran well.  I also like it since it was already weathered lightly.

I only have one 2 rail freight car so far and it is very light.  I am about to add some weight to it to get it to NMRA standards.  I am waiting on some Atlas trucks and some kadee couplers to convert a few of my 3 rail freight cars over also.

I also got my NCE DCC system delivered a few minutes ago...so I am about to open that up and start reading.

Awesome! Very nice locomotive! 

Agreed Phil! 

Andy, does it have a DCC decoder in it? If so which make/model?

It was advertised as DC only...but it does have a speaker.  I am going to open it up this afternoon to double check.  Would be great if someone installed a decoder already.   I do have the NCE decoder that came with my NCE system, but I may sell it and go ahead and buy the Loksound decoder.  This engine is so big, I don't know how well it will do on a switching layout.  May have to park it on the layout and save it for a future layout...it could sit in an engine house and occasionally stretch its legs.

I have heard different answers with this...can the NCE system run a DC only engine?  I have heard both yes and no...but only 1 engine at a time.  If no, then I may install the NCE decoder just to be able to run DCC.  I am looking at a few other engines so I want to be able to test the system soon.

roll_the_dice posted:

laming posted:

Andy:

Do you have a trackplan yet? 14' x 2' (30" max) ought to make a pretty neat urban/industrial layout in O 2r.

...

Andre

Andre...I don't have a plan yet.  I just came up with the idea of the switching layout.  I did measure this morning and I think the size will have to be 12'x2', but I think I can definitely get my feet wet with 2 rail this way.  We are only going to be in this house for about another 1 1/2-2 years.  We are moving once my daughter starts college.  So I am not sure what I will get done with landscaping the layout, but I would like to have it operational anyway.

Any help designing/ideas would be appreciated!

Oh, I think I have decided to use the Signature Switch turnouts...now I just need to start the layout design.

Hi Andy,

As a O scale rookie (didn't have any O scale until last year, and never had or built any layout in any scale) I certainly can't give advice in building a layout. However, since I'm also looking at building a point-to-point switching layout due to space limitations, I've found a couple of resources helpful.

The first is a website called shelflayouts.com; it features the work and philosophy of a guy named Lance Mindheim. While Lance works primarily in HO and N, his ideas translate well into any scale. His website has lots of great information on building realistic (mainly) industrial switching shelf layouts. It includes FAQ's, a blogpost with his ideas and tips, as well as information on common mistakes and things to avoid, as well as things to consider when building a layout. Most of his modeling is modern i.e., post-transition era modeling in 70's to current day. Another bonus is track plans to get you thinking and show what can be done in different spaces.

The other resource I've found helpful is Tony Koester's current 4-part series in Model Railroader about building an O scale sectional switching layout. While the theme is specific (Nickel Plate Road in 1950's Wingate, Indiana), again there are basic design features and ideas which can translate into anything you want to do. The series began with the January 2020 issue and ends in April.

While neither resource is a step-by-step guide on "how I did it", both are good resources for ideas on helping you (and me, for that matter, when I get around to it!) think about how to go about building a layout. Keep in mind that both stress historical research or field reconnaissance in what you want to model, even if you're only borrowing ideas from a particular place, railroad, era, or setting.

Good luck with your layout plans and look forward to seeing how you progress!

Kyle Evans

roll_the_dice posted:

It was advertised as DC only...but it does have a speaker.  I am going to open it up this afternoon to double check.  Would be great if someone installed a decoder already.   I do have the NCE decoder that came with my NCE system, but I may sell it and go ahead and buy the Loksound decoder.  This engine is so big, I don't know how well it will do on a switching layout.  May have to park it on the layout and save it for a future layout...it could sit in an engine house and occasionally stretch its legs.

I have heard different answers with this...can the NCE system run a DC only engine?  I have heard both yes and no...but only 1 engine at a time.  If no, then I may install the NCE decoder just to be able to run DCC.  I am looking at a few other engines so I want to be able to test the system soon.

That locomotive is equipped to take an ESU LokSound Select L decoder. It’s as easy as removing the shell and dummy plug on the motherboard and plugging in a LokSound Select L.

You can either program the decoder with a LokProgrammer before installing or program it on a test track after it has been plugged in.

roll_the_dice posted:

I have heard different answers with this...can the NCE system run a DC only engine?  I have heard both yes and no...but only 1 engine at a time.  If no, then I may install the NCE decoder just to be able to run DCC.  I am looking at a few other engines so I want to be able to test the system soon.

I think the opposite is true. If you put a DC engine on the DCC live tracks, I'm thinking the engine is going to take off like a bat out of ****. I'm not going to test it.

But you can run a DCC decodered engine with conventional DC. I do it often by mistake. I have toggles to run the railroad between DCC or DC. It isn't only one engine at a time that will move on DC. Any engines that are on the live DC tracks will move just like conventional DC, all forward or back as you apply power. I have all of my yard tracks isolated on toggles to prevent engines I don't want powered from running in this state. Basic DC setup.

You can put a DC engine on DCC tracks with no issue.  Have done this many times.  On my Digitrax there was a specific number you selected which changed affected the frequency and would adjust it through the tracks to make the engine run.  It was rather noisy though.

Andy, it looks like Atlas claimed the 2-rail version will handle 36" minimum radius. I bet it will be fine on 40" and #5 and up turnouts. So you should be able to switch with it. 

It was in their lower-priced Trainman range, so not sure if they offered it as just DC/DCC ready or maybe there was a "Gold" version with a Loksound decoder installed.   Might be a plug or socket on the board for a decoder at least.

I'm not a NCE user so I'll defer on the DC loco question. 

If you do decide to take the shell off, be nice to the screws. Atlas has usesd 2 versions that I've seen: Self-tappers direct into plastic, or machine screws into threaded brass inserts.

If self-tappers, they come out fine, but can bring some of the plastic thread with them. When reinstalling, make sure the self-tapper goes into the exisiting thread and doesn't try to cut another thread.  You can gently start the screw slowly in reverse until you feel a slight click. At that moment the thread on the screw is aligned with the thread in the plastic and you can go ahead and screw it in gently. Don't over tighten!

The brass inserts may turn in the plastic and start to pull out with the screw. They can be pressed back in flush and secured with a tiny drop of superglue around the outside before refitting the shell.

Pete _{(whose Atlas locos only have about half their original shell screws left, just don't tell anyone)}  

One thing to watch for with DC loco on DCC track is not to leave a DC loco sitting still for too long. The "zero-stretched" DCC signal causes can motors to slightly oscillate back and forth continuously when stopped (that's the buzz you hear as soon as you put the loco on DCC powered track),  which can cause motor heating over time.

Atlas O (trainman) CSX GE Dash 8-40CW diesel.

Details........

• 2 rail DCC operation with QSI sound
• Diesel Exhaust
• New in Box,
• factory warantee
• All axles powered and dual can motors with brass flywheels
• Scale dimensions
• Directional LED lighting
• Fixed pilots, scale wheel sets and scale couplers
• Separately-applied wire grab irons and handrail stanchions
• "Gull wing" cab
• Prototypical painting and lettering
• Length: 17.5" without couplers, 18" over couplers
• Weight: 5 lbs.
• Minimum radius curve: 36" (2-Rail)
• Oscillating Ditch Lights
• New truck design with single point lubrication for longer life with no disassembly required

QSI® Quantum System™ Features:

• Authentic diesel engine sounds
• Coupler impact sounds when operated with DCC
• Squealing brakes, doppler effect and air let-off in neutral
• Helper mode that mutes the whistle and bell for double heading
• And more!

=================

Per Atlas ads. Atlas installed an ESU Decoder and not QSI.