K-Line Heavyweights

Ben, I had a similar problem when adding pickup rollers to a Williams tender. Even the shortest pickup the roller would hit the axle so I just put a wrap of kapton tape over the axle. The roller still has more the tenth of an inch space on normal track but I was concerned any uneven track might cause contact. Now, no worries.

Pete

I have KLine Penn heavyweights and not which design the trucks are. Don’t have an issue running them on our club layout and our switches are Ross.
But…. the couplers tend to open with the weight of 9 cars together behind a scale GG1. I cable-tied each coupler shut and no more uncoupling.
Anyway, for $25 a car, we’ll worth the small mod on them.

I have a set of Williams and MTH heavyweights and the trucks and rollers are horrible. I know I will need to replace them. Thank you for the insights.

Jay

Hey Ben,

How far back do those Heavyweights go as far as a date? I have 6 Heavyweights brand new in a box, unused yet, need people & lighting. Have LED's on a tape roll and some of GRJ's voltage/rectifier boards for the lighting purpose. Will have to check out the trucks on these. Hobby Shop in Somerville, N.J. was closing it's doors and the owner sold me 6 pasenger cars, still in a sealed box, for $200.00. Glad you brought this up!

    Steam Forever

            John

I believe that due to this shorting issue, many of the heavyweight passenger cars were part of a safety recall. Check this link.

https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/1...-Recall-Model-Trains

@N&WY6b posted:

Hey Ben,

How far back do those Heavyweights go as far as a date? I have 6 Heavyweights brand new in a box, unused yet, need people & lighting. Have LED's on a tape roll and some of GRJ's voltage/rectifier boards for the lighting purpose. Will have to check out the trucks on these. Hobby Shop in Somerville, N.J. was closing it's doors and the owner sold me 6 pasenger cars, still in a sealed box, for $200.00. Glad you brought this up!

    Steam Forever

            John

I am going to guess the ones in the yellow and black boxes are OK. The earlier ones in the black with gold lettering may be the ones to check.

Pete

@Norton posted:

The earlier ones in the black with gold lettering may be the ones to check.

That's the style of the Southern Pacific set I have. I'll have to look at my cars again. Currently have no issues with them. Although, I did rewire the trucks and interior lighting.

First, Ben, nice work figuring out how to fix those cars.

Thanks, milnyc, for posting this link!

Second, how did a CPSC recall get put into play? Was there a fire caused by these cars? Did MDK realize they were a fire hazard? And, how much $$$ did this product recall cost K-Line?

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

... how did a CPSC recall get put into play? Was there a fire caused by these cars? Did MDK realize they were a fire hazard? And, how much $$$ did this product recall cost K-Line?

Mark,

First of all the recall, and most likely the truck issues mentioned by the OP, are only problems associated with K-Line's first generation of scale heavyweights, which was labelled "The Heavyweights" by K-Line's marketing folks at the time.  You'll find that term prominently displayed on the packaging.  They did not extend to any of the more recent heavyweight passenger cars K-Line produced.

At the time these cars were so much more detailed than anything that came before them, and of course were in scale length which was also novel, so I immediately bought a set (NY Pacemaker, K71-4907-5) as soon as they were introduced.

Within a short period of time it became apparent that the wiring, as installed from the factory, was quite a bit shorter than it should have been, restricting pivoting of the truck and eventually causing wear-through on the insulation where it passed through to the interior of the car.  There were also apparently issues with a spring configuration on the pickup assembly.

If I remember correctly this is why the recall occurred.  Sparks and smoke.

Check out this forum post for more details:

     K-line recall on passenger cars? (5/12/17) | Tom weaver

Mike

The things one can learn here are endless. Found this post and pulled out my LIRR set from 2000. Sure enough, the rollers contact the axles when depressed fully. I never had the problem due to no switches on my old Christmas layout, but with my in-construction layout there will be 16 Ross switches. So, this discovery is timely in that it saves me the grief of figuring it out. BTW- yellow and black boxes. Thanks to all!

K line heavyweight trucks also  had a zinc pest problem.

FWIW here is my simple fix.

Pete

@Terry Luft posted:

K line heavyweight trucks also  had a zinc pest problem.

Later K-Line heavyweights might have but not "The Heavyweights" line as far as I can tell.  Because they were so popular there are many, many, many of these out there.  You can find them everywhere, eBay, shows, auctions.  I run across many of these over the years and have never seen any with zinc pest, or any reference to zinc pest in them.

Mike

I have a set of K-Line Long Island Rail Road blue "Cannonball Express - Dashing Dan" heavyweight passenger cars that have been on my layout since I bought them (new) years ago. Have never had a problem but I don't run them very often. The pickup rollers do contact the axle if pushed far enough. I don't see an easy way to make a proper repair so I won't run them any more and will instead run my well made MTH 18-inch LIRR "Madison" cars on which the pickup rollers cannot come in contact with the axles. Thanks for pointing out this problem.

MELGAR

I have 3 sets.  All came in dark boxes as i recall .  About half of them had the trucks fall apart

@N&WY6b posted:

Hey Ben,

How far back do those Heavyweights go as far as a date? I have 6 Heavyweights brand new in a box, unused yet, need people & lighting. Have LED's on a tape roll and some of GRJ's voltage/rectifier boards for the lighting purpose. Will have to check out the trucks on these. Hobby Shop in Somerville, N.J. was closing it's doors and the owner sold me 6 pasenger cars, still in a sealed box, for $200.00. Glad you brought this up!

    Steam Forever

            John

John

That was a great price on those   

The cars I converted are the second run Heavyweights   They had interiors with no people   They were in the Black and yellow box The first six car set is K-44382  The Lackawanna Limited 6-Car Set These came out in 1999 with the F3 A-B-A   They look a lot better with the LED's   I also used one from Rays Trains for the Observation with the Tomar marker lights and the drumhead

The second set I converted were all custom painted in Erie   I believe they were NYC green to start   They were also a mix of first and second runs    The baggage car had fixed doors so that was a first run   The diner and two coaches were second run with interiors    Each coach had a different type truck on it     Not sure of the timeline on these   

The first release were in the black box with silhouettes in the window.   Those are the ones that were recalled 

@milnyc posted:

I believe that due to this shorting issue, many of the heavyweight passenger cars were part of a safety recall. Check this link.

https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/1...-Recall-Model-Trains

That was 1996 and the first run of these cars   They didnt have interiors  Mine came out in 1999

The cause of the recall on the K -Line Heavyweights was due to a lack of electrical isolation with the coupler assembly. One of my Ringling Bros. Circus cars derailed while my young daughter was playing with it. The derailment caused a short, this short sent voltage from my ZW through the metal frame and the all metal coupler assembly. The centering spring of the coupler assembly turned cherry red from the voltage and caused the cotton snow mat under the track to catch fire. When I returned to “fix” the train for my daughter I had an open flame under a live Christmas tree! I contacted K-Line, Classic Toy Trains, and the govt consumer office at that time, the same day. The gov’t issued a recall, the repair was to replace the washer that the centering spring rested on with a fiber one thereby breaking the circuit. The recall had nothing to do with wiring of the roller pickup. I strongly recommend anyone using K-Line “heavyweight” passenger cars check the truck-coupler assembly to ensure there is electrical isolation. This is at least the third time I’m responding to incorrect speculation as to why the recall took place, if you don’t have specific knowledge of the recall keep your opinions to yourself. I’m sure there are still many cars that didn’t have the fiber washers added, these cars could still be a fire hazard if not under adult supervision.

@Trainmstr posted:

keep your opinions to yourself

I do not believe this attitude is warranted and does nothing to help educate us here on the forum.

......And the congregation said ...AMEN!

     Steam Forever

           John

GRJ, Darrell, N&WY6b...

In post 6 the author offered that the recall was likely due to the roller shorting problem. Of course, it wasn’t, but if someone took that at face value without looking further they might believe that if they have the later roller frame or if they have insulated the axle they are now safe. That wouldn’t have any effect on the spring issue in the recall, would it? So they now have a false sense of security that things are fine because they read here that the (implied) solution is newer roller frames or insulting the axle while the original recall issue may still be sitting in the couplers.

MHM tried to set that straight. Trainstr is correct that if you aren’t sure about something, don’t offer an explanation for it, and I would add, particularly so if it’s safety related. It could have have been more gentle, but it was still correct, because once you’ve read it on the Internet it has to be true...

The recall in 1996 had nothing to do with the problem I described in my OP   The fix for the problem in the recall was to place fiber washers on either side of the coupler spring to prevent it from heating up with a short on the track   The fiber washers isolate the spring from electrical contact    The shorts I described in my posts are momentary    They are on cars that came out in 1999 and they already have the fiber washers on the coupler spring.    Nothing heats up   It just trips either the transformer or in  my case the PSX  and then recovers   The liquid electrical tape or tape on the axel seems to prevent my problem 

There is an easy check for the coupler spring recall   Pop the c clip on the coupler arm and insure there are fiber insulator washers on either side of the spring as that is what heats up.

@Trainmstr posted:

The cause of the recall on the K -Line Heavyweights was due to a lack of electrical isolation with the coupler assembly. One of my Ringling Bros. Circus cars derailed while my young daughter was playing with it. The derailment caused a short, this short sent voltage from my ZW through the metal frame and the all metal coupler assembly. The centering spring of the coupler assembly turned cherry red from the voltage and caused the cotton snow mat under the track to catch fire. When I returned to “fix” the train for my daughter I had an open flame under a live Christmas tree! I contacted K-Line, Classic Toy Trains, and the govt consumer office at that time, the same day. The gov’t issued a recall, the repair was to replace the washer that the centering spring rested on with a fiber one thereby breaking the circuit. The recall had nothing to do with wiring of the roller pickup. I strongly recommend anyone using K-Line “heavyweight” passenger cars check the truck-coupler assembly to ensure there is electrical isolation. This is at least the third time I’m responding to incorrect speculation as to why the recall took place, if you don’t have specific knowledge of the recall keep your opinions to yourself. I’m sure there are still many cars that didn’t have the fiber washers added, these cars could still be a fire hazard if not under adult supervision.

Don’t really matter what the short is, a ZW will go into arc welding mode with out some basic mods,….also agree with John, ….who gave you the in charge card?…you don’t like the opinions, you’re free to move on,……

y’all are making mountains out of mole hills, ….again,….wrap tape around the offending axle, and the problem with the roller touching the axle is solved,…..

Pat

I’m guessing the reason K-Line trucks are notorious for sagging springs on their passenger trucks with pickups, is that the roller spring is not isolated from the circuit, and being continuously exposed to voltage from the track, is the same reason Trainmstr experienced a BBQ’d passenger car?

I still have one unrun set of preSandy K-Line 15” aluminum passenger cars. I’ll assume they weren’t affected?

@harmonyards posted:

y’all are making mountains out of mole hills, ….again,….,…..

Pat

The guy had a fire under his Christmas tree with his daughter 2 feet away   I dont think thats a mole hill   He could have been more civil in his post but I see where he is coming from even though that had absolutely nothing to do with my post

As mountains out of mole hillls directed at me I thoght this forum was to share ideas not to prove how smart we are.  Take a look at how many people didnt know the problem existed my self included   I finally ran these cars and was disappointed that they wouldnt make it around the layout once after I spent decent money to insall LED lighting   I think this mole hill post makes alot more sense than a 15 minute video on how to move boxes around

@bluelinec4 posted:

The guy had a fire under his Christmas tree with his daughter 2 feet away   I dont think thats a mole hill   He could have been more civil in his post but I see where he is coming from even though that had absolutely nothing to do with my post

As mountains out of mole hillls directed at me I thoght this forum was to share ideas not to prove how smart we are.  Take a look at how many people didnt know the problem existed my self included   I finally ran these cars and was disappointed that they wouldnt make it around the layout once after I spent decent money to insall LED lighting   I think this mole hill post makes alot more sense than a 15 minute video on how to move boxes around

It wasn’t directed at you, …

as far as the fella with the fire, it couldn’t have anything to do with the ZW, right?…it’s definitely the car’s fault…..

Pat

Jeez

First off it’s not a case of not liking an opinion voiced here, I read opinions I don’t agree with everyday on this site and don’t say anything. It’s about a safety issue. You all sometimes forget we have newbies visiting this site for information, the last thing we should be doing is forwarding a false safety narrative. I’d like to hear how many of you were even aware of the recall and what the facts are. Imagine a young father goes to a garage sale or train meet and buys his child some trains, in that sale are some heavyweights, he knows nothing about fast acting breakers or the need for them. Can’t you all see the potential for a serious issue? Maybe your years in the hobby are clouding your judgement. Could I have worded my response differently? Yes. If me wanting this site to provide accurate information to everyone is being “King for a day” so be it.

John, I didn't admonish you for posting false information, I referred to the specific post which contained "I believe that due to this shorting issue, many of the heavyweight passenger cars were part of a safety recall. " I even gave the #. I simply thought the reaction to a snippy post was even more of the same. I pointed out that MHM's post corrected it.

Ben's post also let people who didn't bother to dig into the recall info know that the roller issue wasn't the recall issue. As far as Ben's post after mine, in the future I promise to try to predict what might be posted some time after I do so I can properly adjust my post to reflect that future event to calm everyone.

I've only been here a couple of years, but I've seen way too much of this.

@Norton posted:

FWIW here is my simple fix.

Pete

I just had the same problem with one of my DM&IR cabooses that I recently got. Noticed arcing and shorting out the track. Finally caught what was going on. If you look real close you can see some etching on the roller and axle. I added some oil to the springs and right now anyway, I did not get the arcing. What type of tape did you use for your fix?

It's a shame when a post becomes an argument.

@Jeff B. Haertlein posted:

I just had the same problem with one of my DM&IR cabooses that I recently got. Noticed arcing and shorting out the track. Finally caught what was going on. If you look real close you can see some etching on the roller and axle. I added some oil to the springs and right now anyway, I did not get the arcing. What type of tape did you use for your fix?

@coach joe posted:

It's a shame when a post becomes an argument.

True that Coach, so let’s turn it around!…

Jeff, the tape Pete used is called Kapton tape, one of its many uses is for electrical insulation,…..it’s available just about everywhere!….

Pat

Great! Thanks for the tip !

@coach joe posted:

It's a shame when a post becomes an argument.

It's even more a shame when a safety-related post becomes an argument.

I'm going to be blunt.

A fire, a real fire with flames, is a life-threatening situation.  The facts are important and deserve to be shared so that none of us ever see such an event on our layouts, or in our homes.  Remember that our stuff is capable of starting such a fire.

Now, here's the problem.  The internet is full of bogus banter, too much of it emotionally charged, rather than based on facts.

Do we have to worry about this here, on the OGR forum.  Yes, unfortunately.  It's everywhere.

Our best option to circumnavigate this is to stick to the technical facts, especially on this topic of safety.

On the flip side when you cite technical facts please be aware that you might be challenged, which is not only to be expected but to be encouraged.  We deserve verified facts.

Ask yourself this before you post: Where did my facts come from?  Are they based on true verifiable events, data, and conclusions, or instead on emotions?

Please check your emotions at the door.

Presently, based on the raw emotion seen in this thread, I'll stick to the text in the recall issued by the CPSC for my facts.

Let's lighten up a bit, OK?

M.H.M.

Certified Safety Engineer, Credential FS Exp (TüV Rheinland, # 229/14, Automotive) , 2013-2018

@coach joe posted:

It's a shame when a post becomes an argument.

especially when it is over 25 years a go , from a company that no longer exists

Age and manufacturer are irrelevant in this hobby, old trains and manufacturers long gone are operated on layouts every day.

As MHM said: See CPSC Release 97-053 dated 12-24-1996. If I knew how to attach it from my phone I would, maybe someone else will attach it. It was also published in CTT sometime in spring of 97. The CPSC is specific in saying to not use the cars until corrected.

In the release it says K-Line estimated 20,000 units were effected. That’s a large number in a small hobby.

@Trainmstr posted:

Age and manufacturer are irrelevant in this hobby, old trains and manufacturers long gone are operated on layouts every day.

So let me get the facts straight, as I’ve never even heard of this safety recall. Im guessing it was you that got the recall rolling?……I know you fellas got itchy trigger fingers, but I’m just looking to understand, ……so your daughter was running trains under the Christmas tree, with an old postwar ZW??…correct??..and she was running some Kline Heavyweights, and there was a derailment, which led to a fire. ( first and foremost, thank the lord & your quick thinking she’s safe ) ……if this was an antique ZW, was anything done to it to mitigate a short before this happened?……I mean, I could see this happening to many components on locomotives, and cars alike, ….I’m just curious as to why the Kline cars were absolute to blame, …..if they were, then ok,….

Pat