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Working on a US Hobbies / KTM L&N M1 Berkshire.  I want to eventually put DCC in it so I'm thinking about replacing the open frame motor with a Pittman.  Should be a no brainer but have a few questions would like to run by the Pittman Gurus.

Don't know originality, but the current open frame motor is stamped CLW (assume Central Locomotive Works) and has a current draw of 1.45 ADC bench no load and 1.68 ADC when I hold the driveline to a stall.

The Pitmann looks to be a 94128749 with a bench no load of 1.13 ADC and  1.45 ADC when I hold the driveline to a stall.  The Pitman looks to have come out of a KTM locomotive as the front mounts fit with no modification and the rear only needs a spacer as the Pittman is about 3/16 shorter.   The shaft has an exact match hex to the KTM driveline coupler.

For DCC, I know the motor must be isolated and the front vibration mounts do that and I'll use a nylon screw and plastic spacer for the rear.  From what I read DCC track voltage runs track voltage runs 14-15.5 VDC for a motor voltage of 12 VDC which is on the Pittman tag.

Since the O decoders seem to be 4 amp capable either motor should work.  Assume the Pittman will have better low end.

So, Is it worth replacing the CLW open frame or use it and save the Pittman for a future (unknown) project.

DCC is all new to me, your thoughts

IMG_20240702_160920860

CLW as installed.

IMG_20240702_160948884

Pittman from my parts bin.

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First, what you need to figure out is the stall current of two motors.  Keep the motor shaft from spinning and then apply 12 volts DC and measure the current draw.  This recorded value needs to be below the DCC decoder current rating.  The reason you measure stall current is because DCC motor speed control works on the PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) method.  PWM are pulses that are full on and off.  The higher percentage of on pulses versus off, the faster the motor spins.  This is a digital device, it only knows two states, full on or full off, so they employ PWM as a way to provide variable speed.  Even when the loco just starts out and not even rotating yet, it receives 1000s of full on /off pulses before the motor starts to even turn.  To the DCC decoder, this looks like a stall current situation and the electronic chips need to be able to handle this current draw at the "stall" situation or you will let the magic smoke out of the decoder motor driver chips.  Hence the stall current test on the motor that everyone talks about in the DCC world.  Old open frame motors can draw huge amounts of current in this stall test (in excess of 10 Amps) and more modern can motors generally draw a smaller stall current value, hence their wide spread use in the DCC world in order to keep the stall current as low as possible to stay within the DCC decoder current rating.

Here is a video from SoundTraxx on stall current:

https://youtu.be/7KbEVKZ2JhA?si=KzRzLetWg_yYaY1c

Next thing to realize is the magnet material in those old Pittman motors can lose their magnetism.  This is not evident until the motor has been run under load awhile.   Therefore, you can see the locomotive progressively run slower and slower and slower and if you feel the motor at this point, it will be hot to the touch to the point where you cannot keep your finger on it.  A properly running motor will never be too hot to the touch.  It might get a little warm, but not hot.  Something to consider before putting a lot of time in when doing a retrofit with an old Pittman motor.  Pittman switched to different magnet materials (such as neodymium) in their newer motors in the early 2010s to avoid this from happening, since their motors are mainly used in commercial and industrial applications.  The 3rd digit in your Pittman part number is a '1', which means you have the older magnet material.   A '3' in this location means you have neodymium magnet material.  A '2' can also be found here for an intermediate magnet material that was better than the original, but not as good as neodymium.  However, it can be difficult to find a motor with neodymium magnets in the secondary market, so sometimes you just need to try and see.

Scott

Seems to run free with no binding.  Ran pretty slow with just test leads on the pittman. slower than the CLW.  Maybe I misread a decimal point.  I'll try again.  If things are true, maybe that's why it not in someone else's locomotive.  Do you have a new equivalent pittman number?  I know Ametek wants a fortune for everything though. 

I'm running off an HO power pack, but that shouldn't have anything to do with anything except maximum output, which I would be nowhere close.

I never have been able to find or decipher Pittman numbers, even to try and find a newer version (which I would have to transfer the hex onto).

If the driveline is nice & smooth, and doesn’t require a lot of force to get it to start turning, then it’s quite possible that 9412 is trying to take a poop on you. ….if the 9412 size fits well in the shell, then a more modern equivalent would be 9432. Same size motor with better magnets ……almost impossible to find on the secondary market, and prepare for sticker shock trying to buy one from Ametek ( Pittman’s parent co. ) An alternative is a pretty decent motor available at mthpartsandsales.com …this is MTH’s equivalent to a 9432 type motor. …see the screenshot below for part number …

Pat IMG_9251

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Bottom line up front: if you want DCC, just install a big decoder and leave the motor alone.

I'm guessing that the gear ratio is at least 24:1 (it would be useful to know for sure.)  A Pittman 9412 is a slow-turning motor, probably slower than the CLW motor that's in there now, so you're going to lose some top speed.  That may or may not be important to you.  The "1" in 9412 indicates that this particular Pittman doesn't have rare-earth magnets (which were probably introduced after it was made.)  You didn't mention if your Pittman has ball-bearings.  If the CLW is already a 7-pole motor, the Pittman may not be much smoother or more powerful, so there's no performance advantage in the swap.

A swap also introduces issues with form factor and driveline angle.  An open frame motor is asymmetrical.  Because there are no magnets nor motor case at the bottom gap between the poles, the armature shaft can lay down very close to the chassis and line up with that bearing support Pat pointed out.  If you install a can motor (*unless it's a gearhead motor) the output shaft is in the center and it's going to sit higher, which will mess with the alignment.  The gearbox itself will rotate to line up, but you'll have to make a new bearing support or a custom torque brace, etc.

Scott thanks for posting link to the video, but I don't agree with your logic 100%.  When a loco is starting out, even a heavy train on a grade with the slack stretched, it'll definitely be pulling some amps, but not "stall current" the way it's defined in the video.  Remember, Soundtraxx wants high sales revenue and zero customer claims of failed decoders.  So it's in their interest to sell you a bigger decoder than you can probably get away with.  In the video, the guy presses the loco into the track and forces the wheels to stop turning (it hurts me to watch this!)  In actual use that should NEVER happen!  A properly-designed loco should spin its wheels when it's overloaded.  This is a function of many variables: weight on drivers, gear ratio, motor torque, driver tire material, track cleanliness, etc.  USH are really well-engineered.  But if a previous owner packed extra lead in there, I would personally remove a little until you're confident that the wheels will spin when overloaded.

For decoder selection purposes, I would measure max current like this:  Hold the tender coupler or the boiler front and let the loco push against your hand.  SLOWLY increase voltage until the wheels alternately slip and grab.  Check your amps, and THAT's the max current that you're likely to see in use.  Your CLW is a permanent magnet motor, not a wound field "universal" motor, so my guess is that the DC current draw will still be well within range for DCC.  Plenty of space in the tender, so worst case stepping up to the next-larger size decoder might cost a few bucks more.  Think of it as cheap insurance.

If you had a ball-bearing Pittman 9434, or if you come back and tell me that the loco is geared at 16:1, then I would advocate for a Pittman swap.  But I'm guessing that your "Big Emma" is a pretty good performer already, and I don't see any reason that you can't convert her to DCC in situ.  My $.02.

I have replaced open frame motors in all of my KTM (MG & USH) steam locomotives with various Pittman can motors over the years.   In all cases operating performance improved.  The most noticeable improvement was in smooth low speed running - particularly starting trains on a grade.  I've install 2 amp Soundtraxx decoders in O scale steam locomotives with mixed results.  They work fine in smallish locomotives with efficient motors (like Key and Sunset 2-8-0's), but they can't handle the current draw on heavier locomotives.  The good news is that Soundtraxx Tsunami decoders when they don't like the load flash the headlight 8-10 times and shut down before damage occurs.  Last month I tried a TSU2200 in a regeared, re-motored Max Gray 0-8-0.  It worked fine on a roller stand, but couldn't handle working a 20 car cut in the yard.  The fix was to install a TSU4400.  As has been reported - there is a very wide performance spread (RPM, starting torque, and current draw) among Pittman can motors.  I recommend swapping out the open frame motor for a good high torque can one.  For a locomotive the size of a 2-8-4 go for the TSU4400 - you won't have a load issues.  In most of my mid-sized steam (like KTM PRR M1 4-8-2)'s I was able to install the TSU4400 in the boiler (and a speaker under the stack).  The MTH 9432 replacement looks interesting - does anyone have its performance specs. 

More information.

The 9412 is bad and has been marked, after 10 minutes of running blocked up I could not touch 8 seconds it was so hot.

The old CLW motor runs faster and is drawing 1.1 amps on blocks and stall of 5.75 amps.

Gear ratio is 24 to 1.

I have ordered a Pittman 15 volt 9433 and a MTH 9432 knockoff.

As to mounting, the CLW sits higher off the frame but the 9412 would mount with minimal clearance.

I did not measure the 9412 stall current since it is bad.

Here is some more data and results from my KTM M1 remotor project.

My 15.1V 9433 came, so it was time to do some comparisons.  I ordered a tachometer in order that I could compare speeds.

The original (assumed) CLW open frame motor and the 15.1V 9433 both turned comparable no load speeds of 4800-5500RPM (my tachometer would not settle completely) at about 12.4V.  The MTH motor and my old heating 12V 9412 both turned about 7500RPM at the same 12.4V.

The MTH motor seems to mirror the Pittman 9432 in all respects as Pat stated.

Seeing that the 15.1V motor seemed to match the CLW motor, that is what I decided to use.  The electrical characteristics of the 9433 are 0.12A no load, 1.9A with a simulated heavy load, and 3.55A stall.  Those current draws will help getting a DCC decoder much easier.  It fits, but makes a full firebox.

I wanted to put in a new universal joints, but the short distance (0.430in/11mm) between motor shaft and gearbox shaft precluded that unless I cut shafts which I did not want to do so I used the original KTM universal/coupler.  I used the original vibration isolator/busings and screws vs the front pin/rear support of the original

I ran the 9433 after installation for several minutes and while it did get warm, but not hot.  I could hold my fingers on it continuously.

I'll most likely rewire for convention operation while I am deciding/obtaining a decoder.

Pat, will you rebuild my bad 9412 into a good 9432.  I have a 9434 but that extra 5mm in length makes for a LONG motor.  Would take a BIG engine for that to fit.

@NHVRYGray posted:

Here is some more data and results from my KTM M1 remotor project.

My 15.1V 9433 came, so it was time to do some comparisons.  I ordered a tachometer in order that I could compare speeds.

The original (assumed) CLW open frame motor and the 15.1V 9433 both turned comparable no load speeds of 4800-5500RPM (my tachometer would not settle completely) at about 12.4V.  The MTH motor and my old heating 12V 9412 both turned about 7500RPM at the same 12.4V.

The MTH motor seems to mirror the Pittman 9432 in all respects as Pat stated.

Seeing that the 15.1V motor seemed to match the CLW motor, that is what I decided to use.  The electrical characteristics of the 9433 are 0.12A no load, 1.9A with a simulated heavy load, and 3.55A stall.  Those current draws will help getting a DCC decoder much easier.  It fits, but makes a full firebox.

I wanted to put in a new universal joints, but the short distance (0.430in/11mm) between motor shaft and gearbox shaft precluded that unless I cut shafts which I did not want to do so I used the original KTM universal/coupler.  I used the original vibration isolator/busings and screws vs the front pin/rear support of the original

I ran the 9433 after installation for several minutes and while it did get warm, but not hot.  I could hold my fingers on it continuously.

I'll most likely rewire for convention operation while I am deciding/obtaining a decoder.

Pat, will you rebuild my bad 9412 into a good 9432.  I have a 9434 but that extra 5mm in length makes for a LONG motor.  Would take a BIG engine for that to fit.

Yep,…😁

Pat

A setback, but overcame.  I apologize for no pictures, but I didn't think till things were reassembled. 

I made a test fit originally and while tight, worked.  Well when assembled and powered up, the end of the armature shaft was rubbing the inside of the back head, RATS.  I could the move the motor mount forward or move the motor forward on the mount.  Changing the motor mount was going to be the most difficult and possibly affect alignment so lets move the motor forward.

Originally I used the original rubber isolating bushings to put the # 6 mounting  screws through, if I got rid of them the motor could move forward about 0.065 inch, problem was the mount holes were WAY to big as they were meant for the rubber bushings, I turned #6 flat washers down to fill the holes, Standard #6 flat and lock washers mounted the motor tight in the mount.  That 0.065 inch may as well have been an inch and did the trick.

Next issue was the shaft alignment was now way off.  A piece of 0.026 flat stock in front of the mount screws lined things up just right.

Some judicious wire routing and all is well again.  Run time on blocks in forward and reverse yielded no odd noises so we are good right now for analog operation.

About two hours of rework time, but that's not bad.  A good learning experience.

Now while we are on a KTM motor issue, I have two KTM brand RH-4462S motors.  These seem to be equivalent to a Pittman 9434 61mm motor.  If a not so small engine such as a Berkshire is a tight fit for a 56mm motor what in the world would the 61mm single shaft go in? 

Pat - 9412 on the way.

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