Legacy L1 Mikados are in

What I’m seeing based on the hardware being used, & the forward mounted motor, this is indeed Lionel’s Legacy Mikado chassis, and not the MTH chassis,…Although the gear box issues are not nearly as bad as the Legacy K4’s woes, we have identified the Legacy Mikados as a potential trouble maker…..I have had dozens of  brand new Legacy Mikes that have not even been run yet come across the bench with what we’ve identified as very excessive gear box “slop” ……..I believe I’ve chronicled at least one Legacy Mikado on the gear box fix thread……..with that said, we do not know for sure if this latest PRR Mikado has these issues or not, …..Chris’s first example could very well be a fluke problem,…..so no rush to judgement yet!…

Pat

Lionel sure loves that K Line chassis.

@harmonyards posted:

What I’m seeing based on the hardware being used, & the forward mounted motor, this is indeed Lionel’s Legacy Mikado chassis, and not the MTH chassis,…Although the gear box issues are not nearly as bad as the Legacy K4’s woes, we have identified the Legacy Mikados as a potential trouble maker…..I have had dozens of  brand new Legacy Mikes that have not even been run yet come across the bench with what we’ve identified as very excessive gear box “slop” ……..I believe I’ve chronicled at least one Legacy Mikado on the gear box fix thread……..with that said, we do not know for sure if this latest PRR Mikado has these issues or not, …..Chris’s first example could very well be a fluke problem,…..so no rush to judgement yet!…

Pat

Well, whatever the issue Pat, when I get mine I'll be sure to send it your way for further examination if you wish to have a good look?

Lionel bought the MTH L1 tooling to then only use the shell?

After all the trouble I had getting my Mogul working, I think I'll let you guys work out this one, ha-ha.  For me the color is too light so I'm going to pass on this model.  Saved me some money this time, lol.

From what I’m seeing in Chris’s pics ( thank you Chris ) it’s definitely something we’re going to have to consider looking at, ….hopefully we get a few more field reports, and also wait & see how Chris makes out when his replacement model shows up, and he gives her a shake down run. From how Chris explained the nature of the issue, it does sound like a shifting intermediate shaft. Fortunately, the fix does 100% eliminate any issues of the shifting shaft, ……I’ve checked with many folks that have had the fix, and all report no issues, so we know it works……I wonder if Chris by chance caught the issue on film, as that would be a useful tool in preliminary diagnostics……or if he could explain exactly what he seen or heard it do in more depth,……..the clues are when he backed up with no load, it was ok, but when loaded, backing up, there was a misalignment of some sort??…if that’s the case, then the torque required to push a train in reverse, is enough to kick that shaft out of alignment…..

Pat

@Randy_B posted:

Lionel bought the MTH L1 tooling to then only use the shell?

That’s what it’s looking like so far, ….they adapted the MTH shell to their existing Mikado platform,…..OR they revamped the MTH chassis to accept their drive line,…..my money on the first …..but, as I always say, remain optimistic!…

Pat

Well now we know why it was at a good price. Not much work must have been required to adapt the MTH shell to the Lionel Mikado chassis. Hopefully we are wrong, but I think we know better by now. Maybe that was the best path forward with all things considered. I'm trying hard to remain optimistic.

I have #1369 on order and I'm eagerly anticipating it's arrival. However, the fact that they might be using a Lionel chassis instead of the original MTH one is really disheartening.  I'm not sure if it's just my perception and the lack of blackening on the tires, but the driver diameter looks smaller than the original as well.

On the paint, I agree it's a little bit too light. Though, it looks like it really depends on the angle and type of light that hits it. That sort of how DGLE should be, kind of looks black, but sometimes you're like "oh it's dark green."  These pictures exemplify it the most I think:

Note the ever so slight greenish tint compared to the trucks:
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/208551/

Note the GG1 in the center and how the paint on the body is lighter than the black trucks:
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/498972/

P.S. if this L1 has the same problems, or even the same gearbox design defects, as the Legacy K4s this will unfortunately be my last Lionel locomotive unless they actively address the problem. I like to tinker, but I can't do it on every single purchase. There's only so much time left to actually finish the layout and do "normal" maintenance on the fleet I already own.

@Randy_B posted:

Lionel bought the MTH L1 tooling to then only use the shell?

And tender at least.

@Randy_B posted:

Well now we know why it was at a good price. Not much work must have been required to adapt the MTH shell to the Lionel Mikado chassis. Hopefully we are wrong, but I think we know better by now. Maybe that was the best path forward with all things considered. I'm trying hard to remain optimistic.

And that’s probably the truth of it, ….to keep the costs down, use the existing tools that are already running to make the chassis,…..I’m sure the orange box people weighed the options when they acquired this model’s set of tools,…..OR, perhaps they only bought the shell tools??…as Ryan points out, both the locomotive & tender,……it’s no big trade secret that each mfr.’s Mikado chassis is adaptable to several model types, so no harm, no foul there,…..I would say this as a whole, and pretty much should put some misgivings to bed,…..yes, the gear box issues are kinda a downer, but having been inside A LOT of these Legacy engines, they are very nice, very rich in detail, so IF the gear box becomes an issue, …I certainly wouldn’t let it stop you guys from getting the model, beings you like it……I can’t speak for the orange box people, nor shall I, but if there’s a problem unaddressed, we’ll address it, & soldier on,…..think of it like this,…..when you buy a new car, you get the basic mfr. warranty, or you can opt for an extended warranty, now I can’t speak for extending the electronics warranty, but if the gear box needs fixing, think if it as an extended “drive train “ warranty,…..self imposed,…..😉

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

if there’s a problem unaddressed, we’ll address it, & soldier on,…..think of it like this,…..when you buy a new car, you get the basic mfr. warranty, or you can opt for an extended warranty, now I can’t speak for extending the electronics warranty, but if the gear box needs fixing, think if it as an extended “drive train “ warranty,…..self imposed,…..😉

Pat,

We definitely appreciate your services and all that you publish here on the forum. You'd have every right to keep the fixes to yourself and only help those that sent you their chassis. At least knowing there is a fix before something self-destructs is good peace of mind. Thank you very very much.

My issue with the MTH premier converts is IF there is no Whistle Smoke and Moving bell- where prototypical, them I'm not buying! I have PLENTY of locomotives. Sound and quillable whistles is not cutting it for me for the price. Thats what I will be looking for in the latest catalog.

I just like the extra details on the Legacy models relative to the less expensive versions. I wish there was a separate line without all of the smoke features (that ultimately fail). Spend that money on more separately applied details with less reliance on molded in details. I do like the sounds though.

@rplst8 posted:

Pat,

We definitely appreciate your services and all that you publish here on the forum. You'd have every right to keep the fixes to yourself and only help those that sent you their chassis. At least knowing there is a fix before something self-destructs is good peace of mind. Thank you very very much.

Well, I wanted to make the fix DIY compatible, but after several examples ran through the shops, it was way too difficult to nail down the bushing sizing,…..with dozens of these fixed, I have yet to see two that took the same measurements…..and given the tight confines of that gear box, the final measurement has to be “snuck up on” …the biggest factor is to have zero drag ( or as close to zero as possible ) this way you guys never see that drag show up on your lower speed steps, ….drag is friction, friction is amperage, yata, yata, yata,…you get the picture…..😉

Pat

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

My issue with the MTH premier converts is IF there is no Whistle Smoke and Moving bell- where prototypical, them I'm not buying! I have PLENTY of locomotives. Sound and quillable whistles is not cutting it for me for the price. Thats what I will be looking for in the latest catalog.

Sometimes both of your wishes don’t fit in the boiler on certain applications…….So if you’re stuck on both added features on the same engine, you’ve narrowed yourself down in a tight corner,….😁

Pat

Pats great, no question, but if the first thing I have to do when I receive a new licomotive is send him an email. Why do I bother with a "new" model anyway?

Unless we spend $2500 on a VL bigboy, gearbox repair has to be figured in to the preorder price?

If I ran something on a museum layout 50 hrs a week, that's one thing.

Especially when the paint is wrong and we haven't even seen the red yet.

It seems to be just as cost effective to buy a used MTH l1 and have err put in it. Then at least you have correct colors and a solid drive train.

@RickO posted:

Pats great, no question, but if the first thing I have to do when I receive a new licomotive is send him an email. Why do I bother with a "new" model anyway?

Unless we spend $2500 on a VL bigboy, gearbox repair has to be figured in to the preorder price?

If I ran something on a museum layout 50 hrs a week, that's one thing.

Especially when the paint is wrong and we haven't even seen the red yet.

It seems to be just as cost effective to buy a used MTH l1 and have err put in it. Then at least you have correct colors and a solid drive train.

And I hate it for you guys, …..believe me, I’ve got 25,000 Hudsons to build, ain’t like I need the work, but I know some of you guys love these engines to pieces,…so the insurance policy stands at the ready,…..a lot of guys wait till the factory warranty dies, then they send them in…..we’ve touched upon this on the gear box thread on god only knows what page, but not all of these are destined to croak,……so get your engines if you want them, and enjoy it, if it develops an issue, we all know there’s a solution, and it’s not shelf bound,…..😁

Pat

@Cmontagna posted:

Guys - Once I get my replacement I'll report back on how it operates. The motor is rear facing, you can see it angled from high front to low rear in some of the clips. Speaking with my buddy Sid he is thinking they may have used the frame from previous Mikado runs. I don't believe those models have had gear issues. The engine runs beautifully in forward and reverse, only issue is when it is coupled with other cars causing a higher load on the motor, could be a board issue too perhaps. I was texting with a friend yesterday and he tested his out and was not able to replicate the issue mine has, so let's take a deep breath for now!

As for the color, some have mentioned it's PRR, they were never always the the same. That being said, it's a bit frustrating that it's not the Brunswick we expected. I think it may be a great candidate for weathering if you're into that sort of thing. Nothing is more prototypical than a PRR locomotive that looks like it was left outside for 20 years without a wash.

Did I miss the issue with Chris' L1..."high load on motor..." but what is happening, exactly?

I have a bunch of Mikes waiting for me to send off to Pay from a bit ago. I have to wait though because not only of other projects, lacking boxes, UPS possible strike, as well as not wanting to put too much stuff on Pat's plate as it is. I didn't send him some stuff that I could have recently to make some space for myself with relatives coming to get it out of my hair for a bit, but I just didn't have enough time to sort some things out and send his way. Also, need to nest a little bit of money for all the projects to come as well as what's being worked on.

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

My issue with the MTH premier converts is IF there is no Whistle Smoke and Moving bell- where prototypical, them I'm not buying! I have PLENTY of locomotives. Sound and quillable whistles is not cutting it for me for the price. Thats what I will be looking for in the latest catalog.

That's what makes this hobby great, we all have different priorities in what we look for.  Stuff like swinging bell and whistle smoke take up room in the boiler.  A dinky rear-facing motor helps make that room.  For me, I wouldn't give a nickel for those features.  Give me a big honkin' motor and bulletproof gearbox.  Add correct paint (Williams, Weaver, MTH and Atlas with their 0-6-0 all seemed to have no problem with Pennsy Dark Green Locomotive Enamel) and I'm good.  Only Lionel seems to repeatedly confuse the PRR color with US Army olive drab.

Any 1369 pics anywhere ??? - I definitely need to see it before a purchase / not a fan of the light “Army Green”

Now I’m nervous about the upcoming 2-10-0 hippos

🤞🙏

Any sightings of the Lehigh & New England version?

@Paul Kallus posted:

Did I miss the issue with Chris' L1..."high load on motor..." but what is happening, exactly?

In his last video on his YouTube channel, he described an issue where if he operated the locomotive in reverse, with a load behind it, it would move, or operated in fits and starts.

@Bob posted:

Add correct paint (Williams, Weaver, MTH and Atlas with their 0-6-0 all seemed to have no problem with Pennsy Dark Green Locomotive Enamel) and I'm good.  Only Lionel seems to repeatedly confuse the PRR color with US Army olive drab.

@dorfj2 posted:

Any 1369 pics anywhere ??? - I definitely need to see it before a purchase / not a fan of the light “Army Green”

I'm not sure the color is as bad as some of the photos posted here seem to indicate. I don't want to post pictures without @Cmontagna's permission, but if you watch his last video on the L1s, there are some parts where it looks pretty black. The paint color seems to be sensitive to the light hitting it. Which is what DLGE should do. It's not black, it's not green. I'll reserve judgement until I have it in-front of me.

That said, IMHO it's much easier to fix a paint job than to re-engineer and rebuild a driveline.  Not that I'm an expert on either.

@rplst8 posted:

I'm not sure the color is as bad as some of the photos posted here seem to indicate. I don't want to post pictures without @Cmontagna's permission, but if you watch his last video on the L1s, there are some parts where it looks pretty black. The paint color seems to be sensitive to the light hitting it. Which is what DLGE should do. It's not black, it's not green. I'll reserve judgement until I have it in-front of me.

That said, IMHO it's much easier to fix a paint job than to re-engineer and rebuild a driveline.  Not that I'm an expert on either.

Go for it!

@rplst8 posted:

if you watch his last video on the L1s, there are some parts where it looks pretty black. The paint color seems to be sensitive to the light hitting it.

Yep. I noticed that too. It's like the paint gets washed out in direct light. But it looked much darker in diffused light.

@Cmontagna posted:

Go for it!

@BillYo414 posted:

Yep. I noticed that too. It's like the paint gets washed out in direct light. But it looked much darker in diffused light.

Yeah, so here are some examples.

Greenish:

Blacker:

rplst8 - I’m hoping that’s the case / I REALLY want this engine 😊🙏👍🏼

I have the #882 Santa Fe on order so I am not too worried about the color. The forward facing motor rather than a big motor in the firebox is a bit disappointing.

The gear box discussion is an example of what a single mess up can do can do to a reputation. Is it not that the gear box issue stems from a K-4 produced about 12 years ago?   I have a Santa Fe T1b Berkshire with the compound gearbox. It has held up just fine over the years. I just had my locomotive apart to lube it and there was not wear. The Lionel version is far superior to the K-line version (which I also have). While I may not run my Berkshire 50 hours day, it is one of my favorites and I am sure it has at least 500 to 1000 hours on it. Besides, does the forward facing motor have a compound gearbox?

Similar compound gearboxes are used all over the place in HO.

Where is the B&M Berkshire I have been waiting for?

They broke the tooling?

Hoping no problems with that one.

@cswalter posted:

Where is the B&M Berkshire I have been waiting for?

They broke the tooling?

Hoping no problems with that one.

The new eta is 3/2024

@Cmontagna - you mention the paint color compared to your M1...

Can you post pics of the engines side by side, both in direct and diffused light?

@RickO posted:

The new eta is 3/2024

They had it at October last I looked.

Oh well.

Thanks

@WBC posted:

The gear box discussion is an example of what a single mess up can do can do to a reputation. Is it not that the gear box issue stems from a K-4 produced about 12 years ago?   I have a Santa Fe T1b Berkshire with the compound gearbox. It has held up just fine over the years. I just had my locomotive apart to lube it and there was not wear. The Lionel version is far superior to the K-line version (which I also have). While I may not run my Berkshire 50 hours day, it is one of my favorites and I am sure it has at least 500 to 1000 hours on it. Besides, does the forward facing motor have a compound gearbox?

Similar compound gearboxes are used all over the place in HO.

The forward facing motor and compound gearbox aren’t problems per se. Its the transverse slop that is allowed by not having a properly sized throwout bearing. (Also possibly a metal hardness mismatch.)

@WBC posted:

I have the #882 Santa Fe on order so I am not too worried about the color. The forward facing motor rather than a big motor in the firebox is a bit disappointing.

The gear box discussion is an example of what a single mess up can do can do to a reputation. Is it not that the gear box issue stems from a K-4 produced about 12 years ago?   I have a Santa Fe T1b Berkshire with the compound gearbox. It has held up just fine over the years. I just had my locomotive apart to lube it and there was not wear. The Lionel version is far superior to the K-line version (which I also have). While I may not run my Berkshire 50 hours day, it is one of my favorites and I am sure it has at least 500 to 1000 hours on it. Besides, does the forward facing motor have a compound gearbox?

Similar compound gearboxes are used all over the place in HO.

I’ll address your comments one at a time …….

your T1b Berkshire’s gear box is of a different design. We’ve identified those Legacy gear boxes that are robust, and have a generous spacer to keep the idler gear centered in the gear box.

All of the latest Legacy offerings with the forward mounted RS385 share a similar gear box design.

I don’t know what H.O. models have to do with this discussion……

Pat

@rplst8 posted:

In his last video on his YouTube channel, he described an issue where if he operated the locomotive in reverse, with a load behind it, it would move, or operated in fits and starts.

Chris has a longer review of this engine.  Later on the video , when the engine is clipping along, what sounds to me like gear noise can be heard over the soundset.

On a side note. The suspense regarding the shade (s) of red is killing me.

@RickO posted:

The new eta is 3/2024

Where did you hear this? Trainworld and Charles Ro have them set for October. Not that I'm complaining, but the March 2024 ETA is definitely news to me.

@0-Gauge CJ posted:

Where did you hear this? Trainworld and Charles Ro have them set for October. Not that I'm complaining, but the March 2024 ETA is definitely news to me.

https://www.lionelstore.com/Bo...CY-A1-Berkshire-1401

@RickO posted:

Chris has a longer review of this engine.  Later on the video , when the engine is clipping along, what sounds to me like gear noise can be heard over the soundset.

On a side note. The suspense regarding the shade (s) of red is killing me.

I heard this too, ….I’d love to get my hands on that exact example to do a diagnostics,….we also could be jumping the gun, as I’ve said before, this could be a fluke issue with that one model,….the motor mount screws could simply be loose, allowing the motor to shift and misalign……hopefully the orange box people did address the shortcomings of this gear box type, ……I’m sure we’ll find out,,…

Pat