@BradFish1 posted:What do you have to press on the CAB2 to change the tone of the whistle and bell on these?
@BradFish1 posted:What do you have to press on the CAB2 to change the tone of the whistle and bell on these?
I believe you press the aux button and then whistle, keep repeating and they will rotate.
@RickO posted:So much for Chris's first engine being an isolated incident.
I wonder if you look through the spokes of the powered axle you'll see the secondary gear shaft walking out of the chassis?
I’m 95% certain I could see an intermediate shaft on mine. I haven’t run it because it came early Friday and now we’re on vacation far from home.
@harmonyards posted:Let’s not hit the panic button just yet fellas, …..
thanks to my partner in crime @Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 , I have his L1 in route to my shop to see what’s going on. When it gets here, I’ll open it up, and take a look at everything. Beings this thread is not originally intended for an issue, I will start a new thread, and we’ll leave this thread for all the sugar & spice & everything nice. Let’s keep an open mind till we what’s going on. We’ll discuss all the whizzbang mechanical wizardry on a new thread in the Harmon Shops….
Pat
No panicking, but it’s time to call a spade a spade Pat. I know I’m a complainer on these forums, but I’m also plunking down hard earned money. It’s not right, and it’s not fair. Lionel is taking us all for chumps.
Well, when mine arrives at Pat's, he'll get to the bottom of this for sure. Yeah it is not a great thing that something new isn't working correctly or as it should. Yeah we shouldn't have to have someone poke in there and see what's going on, fix it, and send it back. This is the constant discussion which we all say just about the same thing.
I don't know what needs to be done for things to be right straight from the manufacturer, heck, I don't think any of us do. It would be one thing if a message came out saying, "We're aware of the problem, and we'll fix it.", but I think we know that won't come unless there's something else to be a bridge way too far. Yeah, the bridges have all been crossed, at least from our perspective, what more could there be?
I do know that I have a bunch of engines suffering from gearbox ills that need to go see Pat. K4's, Mikados, you know. See what this L1 brings, hopefully no others.
@rplst8 posted:I’m 95% certain I could see an intermediate shaft on mine. I haven’t run it because it came early Friday and now we’re on vacation far from home.
Yep, it's there. From the outside, it looks to be identical to the k4,the other mikados ,as well as h10.
Once you know what to look for, the shaft is easy to spot. It's in just about everything. The only difference is that the larger locos have a much larger diameter shaft and bushing that appears to give the setup tighter tolerances.
The smaller shaft setup, rocks back and forth in the bushing and shows more slop. On top of the side to side movement that ultimately leads to gears disengaging.
On a side note. Imo folks should pay attention to these extra bushings and give them a drop or two of oil just as they would the axle.
I'd like to know how bad these engines would perform if Lionel went back to the traditional worm gear on the axle gear gearbox.
The original K Line Mike's and k4s had a traditional gear setup with a forward facing motor didn't they? Every video I've seen, they run well and have a good low starting speed.
Are the motors these days just not making the torque they did years ago because of product cheapening and inflating prices at the same time?
Lionel just keeps making the same mistakes over and over.
Hopefully (maybe) those prr hippos will turn out better if Lionel has to use the MTH chassis. While the tether on the usra 0-6-0s is a disaster. The ball bearing worm in the MTH tooled gearbox is a quality design.
This has sure been a buzzkill with regard to Lionel acquiring MTH tooling, at this point its .....so what?
@rplst8 posted:No panicking, but it’s time to call a spade a spade Pat. I know I’m a complainer on these forums, but I’m also plunking down hard earned money. It’s not right, and it’s not fair. Lionel is taking us all for chumps.
I’m not going down that rabbit hole bashing the orange box people, …..if you want to, have a ball, I’m here to get the locomotive down the road. ( in both directions ) …….and technically, this ain’t the thread to do it on either,…..as neither me or you wrote the original post….and as I mentioned earlier in a reply, when I get Dave’s engine, I’ll open it up and we’ll take a look and I’ll start a new discussion…..BUT please!!!….let’s use that thread as a useful tool, to aid in diagnostics, & a remedy……not a bashing seminar!!……maybe, just maybe if we keep a civilized discussion, and point out the flaws, and point out the remedies, we’ll get the attention of the orange box folks…..if they turn a deaf ear, then it’s game on,….my suggestions…..for what it’s worth,…..
Pat
@RickO posted:I'd like to know how bad these engines would perform if Lionel went back to the traditional worm gear on the axle gear gearbox.
The original K Line Mike's and k4s had a traditional gear setup with a forward facing motor didn't they? Every video I've seen, they run well and have a good low starting speed.
Are the motors these days just not making the torque they did years ago because of product cheapening and inflating prices at the same time?
Lionel just keeps making the same mistakes over and over.
Hopefully (maybe) those prr hippos will turn out better if Lionel has to use the MTH chassis. While the tether on the usra 0-6-0s is a disaster. The ball bearing worm in the MTH tooled gearbox is a quality design.
This has sure been a buzzkill with regard to Lionel acquiring MTH tooling, at this point its .....so what?
In my theory Rick, ….( others are welcomed to rebut it ) this design of gear box is an attempt to overcome the major drawback of what DC electric motors are available to pull from vendor stock to get the job done. ……Pittman’s Lo-Cog claim isn’t just a sticker on the motor, it’s a patented armature design that virtually ( darn near 100% ) eliminates any motor cog, …..in a direct worm to wheel gear box, this cog would be horrible in low speed steps, …..now inject legacy with a gazillion speed steps, and the problem would be10X more horrible……So the compound gear box is the solution to overcome the dreaded motor cog. As you add up multiple gear set’s backlash, you’ve already made the clearance you need to get past the straight line segments of an armature, and you’re in motion, …..then the cog is nearly irrelevant as the motor begins to spin past that point…..hope that makes sense….
Pat
Agreed Pat, definitely not a place to bash. We've been down that road way to many times which is why I tried to choose my words carefully and not go down any road with exit signs. We'll just have to wait on the new things as they come along and see what has issues. I'm hoping that new stuff not yet here doesn't have problems when they arrive, but if they do, I'll be in you inbox. Like you said, "you want the engine", that is why I ordered it. It is annoying for sure if it has issues running, but I still want it. That is my bottom line. Whenever my railroad gets built to the fullest of what my expectations are, I'll have some slick running engines.
Just got my L1 from Ro yesterday. Had a few minutes for a quick test. Pulling a four car diecast hopper set, it ran fine in both directions. I didn't have a chance to really give it a good run but so far mine appears to be ok. Hopefully there are more good results than bad...
@will2926 posted:I recently purchased the AT&SF L1 Mikado and its incredible! Be sure to check out my review on YT and subscribe to will2926! Thank you and happy railroading!
Any problems with the #882?
@harmonyards posted:Note the spacer on the intermediate shaft I’ve circled from your photo.
So the compound gear box is the solution to overcome the dreaded motor cog.
Pat
For some reason Lionel is not putting in a spacer to limit back on forth slop of the worm for units with the forward facing angled motor? But they do for the units with the motor in the firebox design? That is very strange. Anyways, if caught before gear damage that seems like an easy enough repair.
On the compound gear box, as stated the compound gear box is to eliminate motor cog. The gear box also acts a fulcrum allowing the motor do more work with less stress on the motor. Let us say that the main worm has an 8:1 gear ratio. That means that it takes 8 revolutions of the armature to turn the wheel one revolution. At low speed you might experience significant cogging effects as the armature spins slowly to turn the wheel.
In the compound gear box that means that spur gear next to the worm also turns 1 revolution per 8 revolutions of the armature. That side spur gear meshes with a larger spur gear that is on the wheel axle. Let us say that it takes 3 revolutions of the small gear to turn the larger spur gear on the axle. Each stage of the gears is multiplicative. Thus, with an 8:1 ratio at the worm and then 3:1 with the spur gears that would be 8x3 for a 24:1 gear reduction. That means it takes 24 revolutions of the armature to turn the wheel one revolution. At low speeds cogging is eliminated since the armature spins much faster to turn the wheels.
@WBC posted:Any problems with the #882?
For some reason Lionel is not putting in a spacer to limit back on forth slop of the worm for units with the forward facing angled motor? But they do for the units with the motor in the firebox design? That is very strange. Anyways, if caught before gear damage that seems like an easy enough repair.
if caught before gear damage that seems like an easy enough repair.
I’ll quote gunrunner John on this ….
Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing!
Pat
@harmonyards posted:….
Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing!
Pat
Why would I have somebody else do a repair for me?
@WBC posted:Why would I have somebody else do a repair for me?
Why buy a new locomotive, that needs to be repaired?
If it’s not an easy repair, all the more reason to complain that Lionel is acting in bad faith.
All they need to do is put a throwout bearing in there and the problem goes away. This is silly!
@rplst8 posted:If it’s not an easy repair, all the more reason to complain that Lionel is acting in bad faith.
All they need to do is put a throwout bearing in there and the problem goes away. This is silly!
Shouldn’t we diagnose the ACTUAL issue before we implement the fix, OR decide how easy it is or isn’t?…😉
Pat
Sure, I’ll hold of on further judgement until I open mine up in a week.
Forgetting about drivetrain issues for a minute one thing this engine appears to do well is SMOKE - pretty impressive - there's a ton of videos posted already
I got two of the L1's 1369, and 1627. Both of them are great locomotives and I love them. I do notice that 1627 seems to be the only one with any noticeable issue, and its almost a non issue to me. Others mileage may vary...
As it is moving slowly in reverse about to stop, you will see the drive wheels stop abruptly like the backlash has caught up to the stopped motor. That is the best way I can describe it.
To me its a non issue as you almost have to be watching it really close to see it happen. I plan to run both of mine as is and keep them the way the are until it becomes an issue. At which time I will look into a fix or have someone like Pat look at it. The same with my legacy K4...
Test ran a new L1, #1627 last night. Pulled and pushed 14 cars up and down a 2% grade on my layout. Two of the cars were diecast and one was aluminum, Reversed the train, pushing the cars up the incline and had no issues and no gear noise noted without sound on.
Since we are getting both good and bad reports on this engine maybe it’s not a design issue but rather a tolerance issue on some of the gears or axles they are using in the gearbox. If the gear or axle supplier is not holding true on all the tolerances perhaps that is why some engines are fine and some are problematic. Just a thought. I’ve seen this happen in industrial applications.
@romiller49 posted:Since we are getting both good and bad reports on this engine maybe it’s not a design issue but rather a tolerance issue on some of the gears or axles they are using in the gearbox. If the gear or axle supplier is not holding true on all the tolerances perhaps that is why some engines are fine and some are problematic. Just a thought. I’ve seen this happen in industrial applications.
Rod, I can not answer the specific question in regards to this new release of the L1, as I have not been inside one yet, ….( I’ll have one here in a matter of a few days ) however, in all the other applications this type of specific gear box design, it really wasn’t just the gears themselves that were the issue, but more specifically, the casting of the drive block’s gear cavity. With dozens and dozens of past releases coming through the shop, the actual measurements that varied greatly across a wide spectrum was the width of the gear box cavity,……that measurement dictated how far over the gear shaft could “ wander” off center. …..I’ve found widths that ranged all the way up to 1/8” from the narrowest box I took a recording from…with that said, the intermediate shaft rides up against a bushing pressed into the cavity walls, …so if the wall is moved, the intermediate shaft along with it’s gear cluster, can move too,…….I can not say for certain this is the issue with the L1, but we’ll find out …..very soon,….
Pat
Thanks Pat. Makes sense.
I ordered two, one is here & the other arrives today, I’ll test them & let you all know if they have the gearbox issue or not. Got the Mr Muffin Tuscan & a doghouse version from Ro
I’ll have Dave’s L1 tomorrow if tracking holds true,…….I might even have time tomorrow evening to test it straight out the box, establish a base line, ( issues or not ) then dive inside for the exploratory,…….get your popcorn & soda pop ready, …..I’ll let y’all know on this thread I’ve got it, then we’ll jump on over on a new thread,…….IF this is indeed a gear box issue, we’ll update the original gearbox repair thread to include this model by item # ……
Pat
FedEx delivered the #882 Santa Fe L1.
Took it out of the box and put it on the track. Powered the L1 up. I was expecting a small nuclear explosion. However, ran perfectly with 10 aluminum cars both forward and reverse. A little disappointing really, considering all the build up.
A couple of pics from my office.
One item to consider, the gears of my unit were dry.
Reading about the L1. Lionel made a Prewar 226E into the Postwar by switching the 4-6-4 wheel arrangement to a 2-8-4 wheel arrangement. I read that the L1 and the K4 Pacific where essentially the same locomotive where the wheel arrangement was switched out. I didn't know. or realize, the real railroads did the same thing as Lionel did.
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@harmonyards posted:I’ll have Dave’s L1 tomorrow if tracking holds true,…….I might even have time tomorrow evening to test it straight out the box, establish a base line, ( issues or not ) then dive inside for the exploratory,
Pat
It'll be interesting to see what you find.
What's curious is, all of the previous gearbox failures are a result of the worm sliding the gears over and out of full contact when the engine travels forward.
This latest batch is having trouble in reverse where in the other gearboxes the worm would push the gears into full contact range.
Not to beat the horse, just thinking out loud.
@WBC posted:FedEx delivered the #882 Santa Fe L1.
Took it out of the box and put it on the track. Powered the L1 up. I was expecting a small nuclear explosion. However, ran perfectly with 10 aluminum cars both forward and reverse. A little disappointing really, considering all the build up.
A couple of pics from my office.
One item to consider, the gears of my unit were dry.
Reading about the L1. Lionel made a Prewar 226E into the Postwar by switching the 4-6-4 wheel arrangement to a 2-8-4 wheel arrangement. I read that the L1 and the K4 Pacific where essentially the same locomotive where the wheel arrangement was switched out. I didn't know. or realize, the real railroads did the same thing as Lionel did.
One item to consider, the gears of my unit were dry.
did you open yours up?
Pat
@RickO posted:It'll be interesting to see what you find.
What's curious is, all of the previous gearbox failures are a result of the worm sliding the gears over and out of full contact when the engine travels forward.
This latest batch is having trouble in reverse where in the other gearboxes the worm would push the gears into full contact range.
Not to beat the horse, just thinking out loud.
Rick, not all the gear boxes are 100% identical,…..dependent upon the model, the intermediate shaft is flipped around, …..some have the spur on the engineer’s side, some on the fireman’s side….
Pat
I stand corrected Pat.
@harmonyards posted:
did you open yours up?
Pat
I did not. I checked by removing the grease screw and using a fuzz free acrylic pipe cleaner. If there is grease in the gearbox there will be some residual on the pipe cleaner, if no grease or oil then the pipe cleaner comes out clean.
@RickO posted:I stand corrected Pat.
No worries Rick, …..I can tell you that all the previous runs of Legacy Mikados did not exhibit any in-field failures that I recall hearing of, …..but we did open a lot of them, and found there was sufficient enough lateral movement to warrant applying the fix, ……..so the potential for a failure was there,…..obviously, the worst offenders are the legacy K4 ……and quite a few of the H10’s I’ve seen were on the verge of failing ….by evidence of the bronzish goo made by grinding gears/ and or bushings……
Pat
@WBC posted:I did not. I checked by removing the grease screw and using a fuzz free acrylic pipe cleaner. If there is grease in the gearbox there will be some residual on the pipe cleaner, if no grease or oil then the pipe cleaner comes out clean.
I the cases where I’ve opened the newer engines with the intermediate shaft, there is usually just a blob of Vaseline at the top.
@rplst8 posted:I the cases where I’ve opened the newer engines with the intermediate shaft, there is usually just a blob of Vaseline.
You’re being generous with the descriptive buddy, …..most I’ve seen is about pea size, and usually clung to the wall only!…..
Pat
@harmonyards posted:You’re being generous with the descriptive buddy, …..most I’ve seen is about pea size, and usually clung to the wall only!…..
Pat
Indeed. My intention wasn’t to be complimentary Pat! 😂
@RickO posted:What's curious is, all of the previous gearbox failures are a result of the worm sliding the gears over and out of full contact when the engine travels forward.
This latest batch is having trouble in reverse where in the other gearboxes the worm would push the gears into full contact range.
It could be that the worm and worm wheel are cut the other direction.
Lionel Legacy L1 Mikado …Tales From Harmon Shops
For those who haven't seen, Pat has my L1 Mikado and is checking out what it's insides are all about. Have a look.
Tossing in my opinion on the color since I just opened mine.
Under non-fluorescent, warm lighting the color actually looks pretty good. I'd say it could stand to be a couple shades darker, but it shows much better than the photos in this thread would indicate.
Where the color is a miss is the lettering. It's more yellow than gold (not that true gold would be correct), and thus presents almost in a highlighter fashion.
The color is dark enough that the black pilot really isn't noticeable.
Obviously, every layout has differing conditions, but this'll work for me, especially with some weathering.
So I finally got to run my copy of #1369 around my “layout” today. The videos are still uploading and I will post them soon.
Other than a little squeak here and there, overall mine seems to have no obvious problems. It operates forward and reverse with very little noise, and was able to push a small train in reverse with no issues. Currently I don’t have any grades on the layout, so it’s an easy task for really any locomotive.
The paint is excellent in my opinion. Next to my WGH Funeral K4s, the smokebox is clearly darker. The paint occasionally knocks on green’s door, but under 2700K LED lighting, it looks fantastic.
The banshee whistle is OUT OF THIS WORLD good. I really, really like it, so kudos to the audio team there. Other sounds are good too, though I haven’t put it fully through its paces.
