Legacy Steam Engines Picking Gargraves Switch and Derail going Straight

First - the obvious question - are the failing engines capable of negotiating 054 curves (or do they have a 072 curve requirement)?

Second, it appears the front pilot truck possibly can't rotate enough to negotiate the 054 curve - so you might want to check this.

Third - probably a photographic artifact, it looks like the track leading to the switch is rising slowly and "crowns" mid switch. Take a straight edge laid flat on the rails to see if such a crown exists. This might be taking weight of the front pilot truck just as it tries to negotiate the curved frog of the switch.

There's not much that WON'T pick a Gargraves switch that is less than 0-54   Sets of passenger cars routinely do that.  0-78 or 0-100 are better.

John

@MED posted:

First - the obvious question - are the failing engines capable of negotiating 054 curves (or do they have a 072 curve requirement)?

Second, it appears the front pilot truck possibly can't rotate enough to negotiate the 054 curve - so you might want to check this.

Third - probably a photographic artifact, it looks like the track leading to the switch is rising slowly and "crowns" mid switch. Take a straight edge laid flat on the rails to see if such a crown exists. This might be taking weight of the front pilot truck just as it tries to negotiate the curved frog of the switch.

The video seems to confirm point 3, the locomotive is rising up for some reason.

You will probably have to add a straight before it to "straighten out" the wheels before they enter the switch.

John

The engines picking the switch are all O54 or less, I'm upgrading from O48 track to this, all my locomotives except one are for O42 or less.

Yes the engines rise up because they pick the switch and the rise up over the rail so that the front truck continues to turn but the drive wheels derail.

As for adding a straight, I really don't have room for that in the track plan, I guess if forced I could try to make that work.

Also, just to add I have a Ross wye switch that these engines appear to have no issues with.  Also, I have another gargraves switch that causes no issues but the train enters from the turnout side so "with" the switch so it can't pick the rails.

Could I add a bit of solder or something to the end of the switch rail to push the wheel in?

All of my Gargraves switches are in a box.  I really don't like them.  Can't afford Ross switches right now so Grandson's layout has Fastrack switches and mine have older Marx switches.

John

Quick update from this morning.

Running trains this morning I took a small piece of painters tape and put in on the inside of the rail right before the switch points. That seems to do the trick, forcing the wheels in just enough that they don't pick the switch at all.

Now I just need to craft a permanent fix, maybe silver or white painters tape.

Good work!

I should have remembered doing something similar using goop adhesive and thin evergreen plastic pieces (0.02 or ??). At any rate I used fine sand paper to taper the edges.

One thing to consider is to taper this rail to a finer point.  Look at a Ross switch, this point is tapered very thin at the end.  FWIW, I had some Gargraves switches, but after some quick tests, I decided that going all Ross was worth the money.

@ArtsModelTrains posted:

Quick update from this morning.

Running trains this morning I took a small piece of painters tape and put in on the inside of the rail right before the switch points. That seems to do the trick, forcing the wheels in just enough that they don't pick the switch at all.

Now I just need to craft a permanent fix, maybe silver or white painters tape.

Try a small piece of vinyl tape (electrical tape).  I use it on Fastrack to prevent shorts with certain wheels that go through the switch and it doesn't come off or wear down.

The idea of shaving the moveable rail down is OK, but removing it won't be easy.

John

That point needs to be filed some. Shaped.

+1 on the track needs to be absolutely level.  The video seems to show that the loco is climbing a ramp as it approaches the switch.  Use a straight edge and make sure the approach track and the switch are in the same plane.  I doubt replacing the Gargraves with Ross would fix issues caused by ramps.  I deal with this issue with modular layouts and always have to adjust the vertical mating of corner modules to get a level approach to the curves.

@ArtsModelTrains posted:

Quick update from this morning.

Running trains this morning I took a small piece of painters tape and put in on the inside of the rail right before the switch points. That seems to do the trick, forcing the wheels in just enough that they don't pick the switch at all.

Now I just need to craft a permanent fix, maybe silver or white painters tape.

Tape would be a band aid repair at best, not to mention it’d get chewed up and gummy in short order. I’d pay attention to John’s suggestion. If you’re not capable or comfortable filing the rail, find someone that is,….

Pat

@Craftech posted:

The idea of shaving the moveable rail down is OK, but removing it won't be easy.

Why would you remove it?  You can fix it without removing it, Dremel to the rescue.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

One thing to consider is to taper this rail to a finer point.  Look at a Ross switch, this point is tapered very thin at the end.  FWIW, I had some Gargraves switches, but after some quick tests, I decided that going all Ross was worth the money.

Yikes, good find, that is a bump!

@Tracker John posted:

+1 on the track needs to be absolutely level.  The video seems to show that the loco is climbing a ramp as it approaches the switch.

It's hard to tell because the video goes out of focus. In the last seconds as the camera pans right it almost looks as though there is a dip in the track right before the turnout.

I sighted down the track across all off the turnouts on my layout from the long end.

I shimmed out any dips with index cards. Any rises that could be lowered by snugging down the track screws a bit ,were addressed as well.

I see lots of videos on youtube with trains bouncing across uneven track, big gaps , and squared curve transitions.

Imo , good wiring and track are vital to a reliably running layout. It's easy to rush construction in the anticipation of getting trains running.

I had similar issue with Gargraves and MTH premier steamers with 4 wheel lead trucks, no others. Replaced the Gargraves with Ross, problem went away. Something in the design of the switch, and 4 wheel truck. Different engines of all sorts performed fine on Gargraves switch, but everything is running well on Ross.

Older Gargraves switches had points made of their tubular rail, essentially sheet metal and had a very sharp point. The later ones have cast points and have a thicker end like yours. Should be very easy to grind them sharp with a dremel and a stone or sanding drum. Use a spacer so the point is not right up against the running rail. Also check the gauge of the pilot wheels and make sure they are not too wide.

Pete

The reason that stuck out to me is Ross shipped one switch that didn't have the tapering done before it shipped.  Since it was already installed, I didn't feel like ripping it out and sending it back, I'm sure they'd have made it right if I returned it.  So, I just broke out the Dremel with my Cratex wheel and tapered it like all the other switches, problem solved.

I agree with the above. Try filing down the blunt switch point. Good time to buy a dremel if you don’t have one.

Thanks for the feedback, yeah I figured the tape wasn't the permanent solution. I'll try the dremel approach and worst case I'll swap it out for a Ross switch.

@ArtsModelTrains posted:

Thanks for the feedback, yeah I figured the tape wasn't the permanent solution. I'll try the dremel approach and worst case I'll swap it out for a Ross switch.

As you grind down the point, keep checking the gauge. You want 1.25” (scale 5 feet) between the point and the opposite rail or the same as the track itself.

Pete

That’s fixable.  Shim the track to make sure it is level throughout the switch and lead in to it and sharpen the point as advised.