@NYC Fan posted:

Because of "Build To Order" those of us who want a particular item are forced to preorder to make sure we get one. I know some distributors order more and you can sometimes find these items for sale after they've been delivered. But not always. The more popular road names may be gone by the time they come out. But preordering should not and need not be a crap shoot if Lionel would pay attention to what is being manufactured and insure that the production model is faithful to the catalog representation.

Has anyone returned one of these high end preordered locomotives because of these issues?

Yes.

Skip, you’ve hit the nail squarely on the head.  Until it creates pain for Lionel, it will probably never change. These color problems have been going on for nearly five years and they keep happening.  Consumers are getting stuck with stuff they don’t like (although, in fairness, I believe there are many buyers who are ambivalent to the color mistakes).  The dealers are getting stuck with the rest or are spending their own money to try to fix the mistakes (e.g., it was a dealer who first started paying to repaint the Js). Yeah, Lionel has remade a shell or two, but otherwise the burden has not been theirs.

I honestly believe Lionel knows the issue and the frustration it causes for many of their loyal and longtime buyers. They either simply don’t care or they are not capable of fixing it, but they are not unaware.

I’ve long since thought that for many of us, if not most of us, fidelity to previous model releases is more important than fidelity to the prototype.  When I order something based on a catalog illustration, my assumption is that it will be like the one that came out eight years ago that I missed on - or loved and want another one - or whatever.  This should actually make life easier for manufacturers since they really just need to be good at doing what they’ve already done, not something new.  I think that’s the part that’s the most maddening about all of this: look again at Gary’s list (paint mistakes, horrible new couplers, etc) - these are all self-inflicted fumbles of things that have been made at an excellent level before.  It’s not a case of trying something new and failing, it’s suddenly forgetting how to do what you’ve done extremely well for a longtime.  

I think the only real fix on the consumer level is to decide you have enough stuff.  We can’t control anything else anyway.

I passed on this run of Ten Wheelers but was able to pick up one from the previous run once the news broke. The next thing on my want list is the Camelbacks but I have no idea what the paint will look like on those. The catalog images actually show the dreaded light color for the smokeboxes. I don't know what was prototypical but I'm just used to the graphite by now and much favor it.

@Rider Sandman posted:

I think the only real fix on the consumer level is to decide you have enough stuff.  We can’t control anything else anyway.

Indeed.

While I still do buy things and have a few things on my "need/want" list, if I never got another locomotive it wouldn't be the end of the world.  I have plenty to keep me busy and interested.  I think what Lionel should realize is that there are seemingly less and less young folks getting into the hobby, let alone O scale.  Sure people get into O all the time, but are there enough to replace those that are leaving the hobby?  In order for me to continue to spend that kind of money on locomotives, it's got to be correct and not be broken when I get it.

@rplst8 posted:

Indeed.

While I still do buy things and have a few things on my "need/want" list, if I never got another locomotive it wouldn't be the end of the world.  I have plenty to keep me busy and interested.  I think what Lionel should realize is that there are seemingly less and less young folks getting into the hobby, let alone O scale.  Sure people get into O all the time, but are there enough to replace those that are leaving the hobby?  In order for me to continue to spend that kind of money on locomotives, it's got to be correct and not be broken when I get it.

Unfortunately for me, I fall into the category of "young folks getting into the hobby". Most of the engines that I am interested in were made between 5-10 years ago when I was too young (still in school/ had no expendable income) to buy. These (Legacy PRR K4, M1a, Visionline GG1, the 2012 catalog N&W J) are extremely hard to find on the second hand market so it seems like the only way for me to get my hands on them is for Lionel to re-issue them.

@Prr7688 posted:

My thoughts exactly. I have a few items that I am interested in ordering if they are in upcoming catalogs, but I do not want to bet on the "Quality Control aspects" with my wallet.

I really wanted to get one of the latest N&W J's (my local dealer always orders extra) until I saw the bright orange paint.

The PRR H10's looked HORRIBLE or I would have bought one. From the silver smokebox to the yellow whistle, bell, and pop valves (they should be gold). The tender deck and cab roof were also not the (IMO) the correct shade of red. I know there's an entire thread on this alone... but I think all colors on the PRR engines should match the colors currently found on the engines at RRMPA as they are (truly) the experts.

Do what I did with the H10. I bought a brand new never used Weaver version online, then sent it to @Bruk to convert to Legacy with swinging bell and whistle steam. His work is incredible, and it looks far better than Lionel's version. Cost a little more in the end, but worth every penny.

Matt

@Prr7688 posted:

Unfortunately for me, I fall into the category of "young folks getting into the hobby". Most of the engines that I am interested in were made between 5-10 years ago when I was too young (still in school/ had no expendable income) to buy. These (Legacy PRR K4, M1a, Visionline GG1, the 2012 catalog N&W J) are extremely hard to find on the second hand market so it seems like the only way for me to get my hands on them is for Lionel to re-issue them.

I'm somewhat in the same boat.

I started into O around 2002-2003 after college but my collection was limited to just a Williams New Haven Alco PA ABA set and some streamliners.  I didn't start expanding my collection until 2010 or so, but it was mostly just a piece of rolling stock here or there.  I had gotten an MTH SD70Ace and a cheap RailKing set, both with ProtoSound 2.0 by then as well.

Around 2017 I really started aggressively buying locomotives I wanted to collect once I had saved up and established myself a little more.  There are still things I really want that haven't been made in awhile and most were done before Legacy.

My advice is to learn to repair them and buy broken ones.  As long as the drivetrain is intact, the electronics are replaceable.  That or find older ones that others can upgrade for you.

@rplst8 posted:

My advice is to learn to repair them and buy broken ones.  As long as the drivetrain is intact, the electronics are replaceable.  That or find older ones that others can upgrade for you.

Solid advice!

I'm handy enough to repair and troubleshoot any electrical or mechanical problems, but don't have the temperance to fix paint colors.

@Prr7688 posted:

I'm handy enough to repair and troubleshoot any electrical or mechanical problems, but don't have the temperance to fix paint colors.

Same.  I’m hoping to add the “artsy” side of modeling (painting, weathering, etc.) to my toolbox as I build my layout.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

The Metca PRR Ten Wheeler should be showing up soon. I got an email that it was shipping. So, guess we'll see what colors it got when it arrives won't we?

Looking forward to mine also! I’ll post pics when it arrives

@EricTrainMan posted:

Looking forward to mine also! I’ll post pics when it arrives

I keep tracking mine, but it looks like it has got a while to get out of the starting gate. By tomorrow I imagine it will be moved instead of label created still.

This 16 second video showing the Nicholas Smith Strasburg Railroad 4-6-0 #972 was in my YouTube recommended videos.

The boiler front paint color looks a little darker than some of the others but that might just be the available lighting.

It's at least gray and not silver, still too light IMO.

I notice that there are a lot of "background" sounds now, more than with previous Legacy.  All sorts of groaning, creaking, squeaking, etc.  I though someone was leaving a voice message until I turned down the volume on the engine!

I just got my Ten Wheeler today from Mr. Muffins. I gotta say, the gray on the smokebox is not as bright as it has been made out to be by previous posts in this thread. I will admit it is not prototypical still but it is by no means a light gray. Either way, it is my first Legacy with Whistle Steam locomotive and I could not be any more thrilled.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's at least gray and not silver, still too light IMO.

I notice that there are a lot of "background" sounds now, more than with previous Legacy.  All sorts of groaning, creaking, squeaking, etc.  I though someone was leaving a voice message until I turned down the volume on the engine!

Thats one thing with all the Lionel issues of late, electronics and legacy sound have been top notch.

@Tuscan Jim posted:

Yeah, this just kills me--always waiting for a model of a SRR steam prototype to pull my nice coaches, but for now I'm going to settle on the Legacy SW8 and pretend it's for an ultra rare excursion some kind.  At least they actually have one and the Lionel version and it's livery seem to be pretty well done...

Haha I got an mth 611 for this exact reason

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's at least gray and not silver, still too light IMO.

I notice that there are a lot of "background" sounds now, more than with previous Legacy.  All sorts of groaning, creaking, squeaking, etc.  I though someone was leaving a voice message until I turned down the volume on the engine!

I tried calling you John but kept getting a whistle blowing in my ear. I guess you were working on the layout. All joking aside, gray is better than silver, just wish we didn't have to say that. Instead saying, "look at that great graphite by George, they've done it!"

My Lionel Legacy Boston & Maine ten-wheeler. A beautiful model despite the light-gray firebox. Runs well conventionally, no cosmetic defects, realistic sounds.

MELGAR

The SRR version from Nicholas Smith looks very nice.

Has anyone received their Southern or T&P?  Would be interested to see how they turned out.

Here is the PRR METCA version

https://youtu.be/8ROfmTcGRrA

@EricTrainMan posted:

Here is the PRR METCA version

https://youtu.be/8ROfmTcGRrA

Just got mine yesterday, and oddly, it looks just like yours!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Just got mine yesterday, and oddly, it looks just like yours!

Funny how that works! Overall I’m pretty happy with it. Sounds are great and I like the 5 whistle options they selected. It’s a solid 8/10 from me. Not to beat a dead horse, but the only thing separating it from being a home run in my mind is the missing back up light and a little more tender detail. The molded in hatch looks more like a lionchief/railking piece. Overall a great engine though!

I am out of town or I would send a the Southern which I thought turn out well.

@SouthernFan56 posted:

That does not look like the proper color!

@SouthernFan56 posted:

Oh my.

@SouthernFan56 posted:

Wat. 😦

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

That does not look like the proper color!

There are lots of similar painted in other scales, perhaps not exactly the same but close.

From our friends at Sunset

Here is a link on an S2 Northern

http://www.rgusrail.com/mtgn2584.html

And a class O-1 Mikado

http://www.rgusrail.com/ndgn3059.html

@EricTrainMan posted:

Here is the PRR METCA version

https://youtu.be/8ROfmTcGRrA

That’s a sharp looking engine! Looks good next to the pacific. Wish I had gone for one of those. Thanks for sharing and also, nice layout, looks like it’s got a nice long mainline.

@WBC posted:

There are lots of similar painted in other scales, perhaps not exactly the same color.

Green... yes,similar?...not so much.

That 10 wheeler is a pastel green that isn't accurate for anything but an Easter egg.....or maybe a 57 Chevy.

@SouthernFan56 posted:

Oh my. This reminds me of those summer picnics as a kid. My aunt's and my mom would all make some dessert dish for the parties, and someone would make some jello with Cool Whip. That green color is the color of that dessert. Brutal I think would be the proper term on that color. It should be a much darker green, not something mixed with Cool Whip.

@SouthernFan56 posted:

That’s supposed to be Southern Green??......🤢....🤮....oh my god!...they really got to get a paint dude that ain’t color blind!!.....wow!!!.....Kitchen Aid just called, ....they want their green paint back for the mixer plant,...😳😳😳

Pat

Couple of comments about the METCA PRR Ten-wheeler:

1. Did the PRR ever run a ten-wheeler without a Belpaire firebox?

2. Are those colors on the cab roof and the tender deck the same?  To me, the cab roof looks like a darker red.  And, do the cab window colors match either the cab roof or the tender deck?  They look closer to the tender deck color, but not quite the same.

Chuck

The cab roof is a darker red.  I believe that was actually prototypical for at least some PRR steam, it's been discussed here before.

Thank goodness they are being repainted by the dozens and the price is reasonable. I have photos of piles of boxes, two pallets, and at least 25 engines in the process of being painted.

But all is not lost. How about an Easter train? All that is needed is a set of pastel cars... pink, light blue, lavender, and yellow should be perfect.

Someone mentioned Southern green so I figured I would share this pic of mine for anyone interested.

@Chessie1 posted:

Someone mentioned Southern green so I figured I would share this pic of mine for anyone interested.

So, if that’s the Southern one, what’s the one SouthernFan56 posted?......now I’m confused, and could use some straightening out,....clearly yours looks more appropriate,...

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

So, if that’s the Southern one, what’s the one SouthernFan56 posted?......now I’m confused, and could use some straightening out,....clearly yours looks more appropriate,...

Pat

316 is the Texas and Pacific

@Chessie1 posted:

316 is the Texas and Pacific

Ahh,..ok thank you,...I thought I was going crazy,...I take it the color is off even for a Texas & Pacific?...I have no knowledge what colors they should be,...so my comment may have jumped the gun, ....and if so, I’ll stand tall & corrected,...😉

Pat

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The cab roof is a darker red.  I believe that was actually prototypical for at least some PRR steam, it's been discussed here before.

This is the Atlantic from the most recent batch. Colors look right for PRR.

@SouthernFan56 posted:

@harmonyards posted:

Ahh,..ok thank you,...I thought I was going crazy,...I take it the color is off even for a Texas & Pacific?...I have no knowledge what colors they should be,...so my comment may have jumped the gun, ....and if so, I’ll stand tall & corrected,...😉

Pat

Hmm, catalog looks slightly darker and more of a solid type green without white added into it, lol.

I think when the initial release of the catalog, I said that the color was similar to Baldwin steamer at Steamtown. Number 20 or something like that, what is it darn it?

@harmonyards posted:

Ahh,..ok thank you,...I thought I was going crazy,...I take it the color is off even for a Texas & Pacific?...I have no knowledge what colors they should be,...so my comment may have jumped the gun, ....and if so, I’ll stand tall & corrected,...😉

Pat

No, you’re good.  It’s way off.

http://nonjohn.com/T%20&%2...0Boogie%20Woogie.htm

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Hmm, catalog looks slightly darker and more of a solid type green without white added into it, lol.

I think when the initial release of the catalog, I said that the color was similar to Baldwin steamer at Steamtown. Number 20 or something like that, what is it darn it?

Baldwin 26, argh. The color for Baldwin 26 is slightly darker, but close.

@WBC posted:

There are lots of similar painted in other scales, perhaps not exactly the same but close.

From our friends at Sunset

Here is a link on an S2 Northern

http://www.rgusrail.com/mtgn2584.html

And a class O-1 Mikado

http://www.rgusrail.com/ndgn3059.html

I agree it is in the ballpark, but not a homerun. The T&P green here looks closer to toy-ish plastic to me. I was thinking of picking up one but not now!

@Bill Webb posted:

Thank goodness they are being repainted by the dozens and the price is reasonable. I have photos of piles of boxes, two pallets, and at least 25 engines in the process of being painted.

Bill, where did you hear they are getting repainted? You mentioned this in the 2-8-8-2 thread and I am eager to learn more!

@rplst8 posted:

No, you’re good.  It’s way off.

http://nonjohn.com/T%20&%2...0Boogie%20Woogie.htm

Thanks for clearing that up, .....I didn’t want to come off as another bandwagon jumper ........but that is off even for what you’re picturing it should be close too,...

Pat

@rplst8 posted:

No, you’re good.  It’s way off.

http://nonjohn.com/T%20&%2...0Boogie%20Woogie.htm

But they got the silver smoke box pretty close, it actually is silver!

As delivered, as advertised. Wow. This is unreal.

Wow, the green looks right and the smoke box looks all wrong on the catalog picture!  Look at the picture of the prototype, the smokebox is right on the "as delivered" model.

@Rider Sandman posted:

As delivered, as advertised. Wow. This is unreal.

Mint chocolate choo choo

Wow.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Wow, the green looks right and the smoke box looks all wrong on the catalog picture!  Look at the picture of the prototype, the smokebox is right on the "as delivered" model.

It would be interesting to know if the smoke box really is silver or if it’s battleship gray that shows up as silver in the lighting of the photo. I’m willing to bet it’s gray. Either way, this is an abomination.  

At some point, one has to assume they simply can’t figure this stuff out and give up on them. It’s real close to that time for me.

@tom21pa posted:

Mint chocolate choo choo

I didn't even think of mint chocolate. That is priceless. So I guess with the Lionel Ale, soon will be coming Texas & Pacific Mint Chocolate Chip Ice Cream? Guess no more graphite, no more standard greens, off color reds and shiny silver for everyone. Ugh.

Another laughable paint job by Lionel. Like RickO said, it's the Easter egg special. They finally get the smokebox about right, and then screw up the rest! You don't know what you're going to get from them these days until you actually see it.

Here's how it's supposed to look.

http://nonjohn.com/Texas%20&%20Pacific%20316.jpg

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I didn't even think of mint chocolate. That is priceless. So I guess with the Lionel Ale, soon will be coming Texas & Pacific Mint Chocolate Chip Ice Cream? Guess no more graphite, no more standard greens, off color reds and shiny silver for everyone. Ugh.

Or the double mint express

@Rider Sandman posted:

It would be interesting to know if the smoke box really is silver or if it’s battleship gray that shows up as silver in the lighting of the photo. I’m willing to bet it’s gray. Either way, this is an abomination.  

At some point, one has to assume they simply can’t figure this stuff out and give up on them. It’s real close to that time for me.

At least they got the black right...

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

At least they got the black right...

Rusty

Pretty soon, all black engines are what we'll all have to buy. It is getting crazy how much the paint schemes are getting further from what they're supposed to be. The N&W J's, the red stripe was off a bit, though I think someone had said that it looked a little bit like how it had at some point or was close to now. The graphite has become shining silver, Tuscon Red becomes orangish, the Challenger became a clown train, the Niagara became the 20th Century Limited, the new L2 Mohawk becomes a Pacemaker. What is next? Navy blue becomes Army green?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The cab roof is a darker red.  I believe that was actually prototypical for at least some PRR steam, it's been discussed here before.

While it may be prototypical to some PRR steam, surviving PRR steam has the darker red on both cab roof has the same darker red on the tender deck.

Check out this picture of 7002's cab/tender at RRMPA. They show the same shade of dark red. I trust them as the authority when it comes to shades of paint for PRR.

Edit: Also check out this thread which contains pictures of 1223 cab and tender taken from walkway over the tracks.

@Prr7688 posted:

While it may be prototypical to some PRR steam, surviving PRR steam has the darker red on both cab roof has the same darker red on the tender deck.

Check out this picture of 7002's cab/tender at RRMPA. They show the same shade of dark red. I trust them as the authority when it comes to shades of paint for PRR.

bad link for some reason

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

bad link for some reason

Thanks Dave, it should be fixed now.

@Prr7688 posted:

Thanks Dave, it should be fixed now.

Love the pics. I took a whole boatload of pictures when I was there. Last time I took less though, maybe because it was York Week, lol.

@breezinup posted:

Another laughable paint job by Lionel. You don't know what you're going to get from them these days until you actually see it.

I guess in this case. Trains "are like a box of chocolates......."

Rick, that really captures it. I wish I would have come up with that one. Almost makes me think of My Cousin Vinny now. "And since it was GM, where both cars offered in Metallic Mint Green?" "They were!"

Surely Lionel has issued a blanket RMA so these can be returned without sticking it to the dealers. It does beg the question, who inspected one of these and okayed it for shipment in the first place?  

Expecting this....

And got this???.....ugh!!!!

Wow!!! I feel really bad for you guys. I thought my NYC smoke box was disappointing, but that flat pale green is down right disturbing.  And nothing like what was advertised in the catalog. Even worse than the Vision Line Niagara. Who at Lionel is responsible for these horrific color choices??? I knew a girl once who drank a whole bottle of Boone's Farm Apple Wine and threw up that color.

@Rider Sandman posted:

Surely Lionel has issued a blanket RMA so these can be returned without sticking it to the dealers. It does beg the question, who inspected one of these and okayed it for shipment in the first place?  

Are any inspections able to take place right now with COVID going on?

Edit: I know Scott Mann normally takes a trip to the factory to inspect personally and I am assuming here that Lionel would do the same. Is this a reasonable assumption?

@0-Gauge CJ posted:

Are any inspections able to take place right now with COVID going on?

Edit: I know Scott Mann normally takes a trip to the factory to inspect personally and I am assuming here that Lionel would do the same. Is this a reasonable assumption?

You know, in-person inspections are great, but we have this thing.  Called… The Internet.  Oh, and these other things called digital cameras…

Here’s what I don’t get.  Lionel and other manufacturers need to get permission from the owners of these old railroads to use the logos and trade dress, right?  What company that gives permission to make models of their equipment is going to be “OK” with them looking like this???

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Rick, that really captures it. I wish I would have come up with that one. Almost makes me think of My Cousin Vinny now. "And since it was GM, where both cars offered in Metallic Mint Green?" "They were!"

Rick’s comparison is .....”iiiiiiiiidentical” .....😉...

Pat

@rplst8 posted:

You know, in-person inspections are great, but we have this thing.  Called… The Internet.  Oh, and these other things called digital cameras…

Here’s what I don’t get.  Lionel and other manufacturers need to get permission from the owners of these old railroads to use the logos and trade dress, right?  What company that gives permission to make models of their equipment is going to be “OK” with them looking like this???

100% agree.  I can't see why Lionel can't make a reference color chart and send it to the manufacturer.  They take the model and place it next to the chart and shoot it with a camera in the same shot.  It either matches the colors on the chart or it doesn't.

I'm sorry folks but I will never accept a locomotive that is so off in color that you have to pay someone else to make it right.

@harmonyards posted:

Rick’s comparison is .....”iiiiiiiiidentical” .....😉...

Pat

Pat, as my brother says when saying the line you are quoting, "you have to remember to clap your hands." Too many times have I quoted that and been corrected by him. Heck, I supposed to be the movie guy in the family, but the leading lady is why he remembers it better than me even though I like her too.

@0-Gauge CJ posted:

Are any inspections able to take place right now with COVID going on?

Edit: I know Scott Mann normally takes a trip to the factory to inspect personally and I am assuming here that Lionel would do the same. Is this a reasonable assumption?

I’m talking about stateside inspection before they were sent to the dealers. In other words, how could someone in North Carolina open the container and deem these worthy to pass on to their dealers?

I learned years ago as a young engineer that it is much better to build in quality than it is to inspect in quality. But, at a minimum you have to try to do the latter if you’re not doing the former!

Look at attached photo of actual T & P 4-6-0 # 316,looks pretty close to me.

Could someone please recommend and inform me with contact information of someone who could repaint and change the lettering on this T&P 4-6-0 engine ?

Thank you.

@trains52 posted:

Look at attached photo of actual T & P 4-6-0 # 316,looks pretty close to me.

I think an appointment with the eye doctor is in order!

How long is this silliness from Lionel going to last. Stop offering steam locomotives other than black until the contractor is held accountable. You are making a total fool out of the once great Lionel name. Do a recall and fix this mess.

Remember, they are only  Toy Trains

@trains52 posted:

Remember, they are only  Toy Trains

...to some.

To others, such as myself, these are upper-end models that should be close to realism. (I reserve the term 'high-end' for 3rd rail and other manufacturers who work in brass that are extremely realistic).

FYI, This is how Lionel defines the engines in the "Legacy" family (taken straight from the catalog):

Note the use of the phrases: 'life-like detail' and '[resemblance] to true-to-like counterparts'.

Now, I don't think anyone is counting the rivets on these. However, paint shades are one of the first things you see when walking into the same room as the models and should be right.

The old 'catch all' phrase created to forgive Lionel from these latest abominations.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think an appointment with the eye doctor is in order!

  

Yup.   And here's a good broad daylight shot of the real one posted earlier:

http://nonjohn.com/Texas%20&%20Pacific%20316.jpg

The green mint pastel color Lionel used isn't even close. It's roughly like the aaf0d1 shown below. I don't think any locomotive in history has ever been painted this color! 

#aaf0d1 Color Information

In a RGB color space, hex #aaf0d1 (also known as Magic mint) is composed of 66.7% red, 94.1% green and 82% blue. Whereas in a CMYK color space, it is composed of 29.2% cyan, 0% magenta, 12.9% yellow and 5.9% black. It has a hue angle of 153.4 degrees, a saturation of 70% and a lightness of 80.4%. #aaf0d1 color hex could be obtained by blending #ffffff with #55e1a3. Closest websafe color is: #99ffcc.

@trains52 posted:

Remember, they are only  Toy Trains

"Toy Trains" don't cost $100 a car or $500-2000 for a locomotive.

It would be really nice if someone from Lionel who monitors this forum would chime in and at least acknowledge the problem. I don't expect a recall, but at least discuss a solution going forward so that we customers can pre-order with some degree of confidence!!!

Skip, on another forum Lionel told a buyer of the T&P engine he could return his engine to his dealer and Lionel would refund the dealer so he wouldn’t be stuck with the engine. I suspect that would only apply to engines not run though. Lionel also made it clear they won’t be repainting nor replacing shells.

Pete

Ugh, that stinks.

Skip aka NYC Fan,

Haven't seen you in a long time. Hope you are doing well. The problem with your post is that it makes complete sense and is reasonable.

Erol

Maybe Lionel should devote a YouTube video to how they are addressing their paint problems.  Of course the first step in recognizing that you have a problem is admitting that there is a problem...

@Norton posted:

Skip, on another forum Lionel told a buyer of the T&P engine he could return his engine to his dealer and Lionel would refund the dealer so he wouldn’t be stuck with the engine. I suspect that would only apply to engines not run though. Lionel also made it clear they won’t be repainting nor replacing shells.

Pete

I didn't expect that there would be any repainting or replacement for the product that's already been delivered. I think it would be reasonable for Lionel to acknowledge the problem to the extent that they recognize that customers are unhappy with changes to the catalog renditions and preproduction models displayed at train shows, and, discuss how they can remedy the situation so that it doesn't continue to happen in the future and we can pre-order with confidence.

I will say that if all of the people who bought that Texas & Pacific 4-6-0 returned that particular locomotive (it really is unacceptable) it might certainly get Lionel's attention.

@NYC Fan posted:

I didn't expect that there would be any repainting or replacement for the product that's already been delivered. I think it would be reasonable for Lionel to acknowledge the problem to the extent that they recognize that customers are unhappy with changes to the catalog renditions and preproduction models displayed at train shows, and, discuss how they can remedy the situation so that it doesn't continue to happen in the future and we can pre-order with confidence.

I will say that if all of the people who bought that Texas & Pacific 4-6-0 returned that particular locomotive (it really is unacceptable) it might certainly get Lionel's attention.

The only thing that really got addressed to any kind of fixing was the Polar Express passenger cars IIRC. Thing is how are these engines different from those cars? Overall cost. There it is. Thing is though, if you add up the number of cars in the set, the production number produced and compared it to these T&P engines, I would think that the Polar Express cars would number more. For their part(Lionel), it is much easier to redo the cars than fix the engines because of the time involved in the work to them.

So does this mean that anyone that returns a T&P engine, that it goes to the scrap heap like the Moguls or do they get set aside to be reused down the line in another mis-painted future Ten Wheeler?

Either way we the consumers look at it, it is extremely aggravating. What we want we just don't seem to get. What they advertise/promote always seems to be slightly off mark or past Jupiter, Pluto, or any other planet we don't want to be near.

What do they want us to do? Do they want us to out source painters, Harmon Shops, Altoona Works, Schenectady, what? It is getting to the point where almost all of us have grievances that make not even a ripple in the ocean.

I was thinking today of bugging 3RD Rail to see if they would consider making a Dreyfuss Hudson. It would have to be two different versions(two road numbers), one with 12 wheel tender, other with the PT tender. At least we would know that it would be one great model(or two in this case should that happen).

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

The only thing that really got addressed to any kind of fixing was the Polar Express passenger cars IIRC. Thing is how are these engines different from those cars? Overall cost. There it is.

Interesting...plus, technically, the "Polar Express" didn't actually exist, did it?

Mark in Oregon

@Strummer posted:

Interesting...plus, technically, the "Polar Express" didn't actually exist, did it?

Mark in Oregon

Well, the first run they had done the colors were spot on(I didn't get any of these), but the next and most recent ones the blue was so far off like the T&P mint green. One of the guys at York that year was ready to rip into Ryan(which he sort of did). Regardless, the issue was supposed to be corrected and I don't know the particulars, but if you were to look up "Polar Express wrong color" or something to that effect you would find the info on that.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I was thinking today of bugging 3RD Rail to see if they would consider making a Dreyfuss Hudson. It would have to be two different versions(two road numbers), one with 12 wheel tender, other with the PT tender. At least we would know that it would be one great model(or two in this case should that happen).

3rd Rail has done one already. Best detail of all of them. They have also made an ESE, J1a, J1d, and J3a Super Hudson. A few are on ebay now.

Pete

@Norton posted:

3rd Rail has done one already. Best detail of all of them. They have also made an ESE, J1a, J1d, and J3a Super Hudson. A few are on ebay now.

Pete

Dang it Pete, raining on my parade! That is a beautiful model. I wish I could get one. I did see a J1d out there, but I was looking at something else for a bit. I may have to expand my horizons of course, but that will wait for a bit(but not too long, lol).

Pete, I don't seem to see the J3a Super Hudson on there. Maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me. I do see two other Hudson's, but they are made by two other companies altogether. What am I missing?

Dave, I was saying all of those engines have already been made by 3rd Rail. They have all been on the auction site in past. I still say your best path to getting a Dreyfuss is get a Lionel TMCC or MTH one and have Sid or Bruk upgrade it for you. They are both well detailed,  solid engines with Pittmans that anything produced today will not have.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Dave, I was saying all of those engines have already been made by 3rd Rail. They have all been on the auction site in past. I still say your best path to getting a Dreyfuss is get a Lionel TMCC or MTH one and have Sid or Bruk upgrade it for you. They are both well detailed,  solid engines with Pittmans that anything produced today will not have.

Pete

Ah, and yeah. I was asking Pat on one of the MTH runs that I saw, was the one with the paint that is off. I'll keep looking of course, because that is one of the things I do a lot of. Got a different engine that will be coming to me in a few. Plus waiting on that Kline Hudson to see if it doesn't sell. If it doesn't, I'm in a good place. If it does sell, well at least I tried. Heck, who knows, maybe I'll check out one of the J1's by 3RD rail. I'm a Hudson junky, lol.

Since we don't have any living witnesses on the forum who can tell us exactly what shade of green is "gray-green",  I will simply repaint my new Lionel to look like the two Weaver ten wheelers I have already painted and placed on my layout. That will meet the "good enough" criteria for me.

I just looked this up on YouTube to compare colors on the Southern version. First two are from the video, last is from the catalog. I thought that the catalog was off as it was more metallic than what it was supposed to be. Is the color almost right or there(aside from the super shiny boiler that shouldn't be)?

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I just looked this up on YouTube to compare colors on the Southern version. First two are from the video, last is from the catalog. I thought that the catalog was off as it was more metallic than what it was supposed to be. Is the color almost right or there(aside from the super shiny boiler that shouldn't be)?

Don't forget the catalog image is Photoshopped.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

Don't forget the catalog image is Photoshopped.

Rusty

Yeah, space painted, out there, colors galore. Question is though, is the models color close to what the Southern colors are supposed to be? I have only just gotten the call today that the Ten Wheelers I ordered are in, and wouldn't be able to check the color out until I pick it up. I do have a FM Trainmaster(old one) that is Southern, but I don't know if that color is the same as what the Crescent Limited colors are. Granted the video was short, and the picture I cropped of the tender was glared by light because of the camera angle. Wish there was more videos out there.

The green on the Southern ten wheeler is lighter than the green they used on the Crescent Limited Pacifics.  The engine runs perfectly and the smoke output is great especially for the whistle steam.  I wish the green was closer to the Crescent Limited green. 

Neal Jeter

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Is the color almost right or there(aside from the super shiny boiler that shouldn't be)?

I’m not an expert on the Southern, but as delivered it looks pretty close.  The catalog has the tender looking darker while the boiler looks shiny or metallic like you say.

Compare here to the Ps-4 at the Smithsonian:
https://americanhistory.si.edu...bject/nmah_214493%2C

Even the two pictures they have there look different from one another due to the lighting, and they are of the same locomotive!

I’m not a Southern expert by any stretch, but the green looks to be fairly consistent with a Southern FM I have from years ago. The smoke box and fire box are no bueno.  I can’t comment on the red.  

But for the color fumbles, these are very nice models. I’ve been trying to unsee the T&P version, but it’s in a class by itself.....