By any chance does anyone have any updated info regarding a shipping date for the new Lionel Base 3? I noticed that Lionel has removed it from their current catalog which is not a good sign?
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You mean the one on Page 226 of the current catalog?
Jon 
The last time this came up. The eta was for 4th quarter of this year. There is no concrete shipping date.
I don't even think Lionel knows when it'll ship. 
It will ship when it ships and not before.
Jon,
You are correct as I was just focused on the portion of the catalog that is normally mailed out, shame on me.
Being it was a new and coming introduced product I would have thought Lionel would have kept it in the mailed out catalog?
From the reply's it is pretty much what I expected regarding shipment "it will get here when it gets here".
I would also like to see a new Legacy hand controller to go along with the CAB 3 although that is probably not realistic? Not sure how many other folks would be interested although I do have an abundance of both Lionel Legacy and MTH TIU and controllers to keep me going for quite awhile.
Larry Brown
@Larry Brown posted:I would also like to see a new Legacy hand controller to go along with the CAB 3 although that is probably not realistic? Not sure how many other folks would be interested although I do have an abundance of both Lionel Legacy and MTH TIU and controllers to keep me going for quite awhile.
Well, the retained the CAB1L, so we get at least a hand-held controller that works with it, even though it's not a fully capable one.
@Junior posted:I gotta tell ya....Lionel's Product Succession Planning completely alludes me.
They came out with CAB1 and Remote...GREAT! Then CAB1L and Remote came out (for Legacy support]....makes sense. Then CAB2 and totally redesigned Remote came out (for full Legacy functionality)....fantastic.
Now CAB3 is due out and......there's no Remote!? And its not backward compatible with the snazzy, fully enhanced CAB2 Remote? I'm so confused.
I've seen train club members run trains on their phones (I've not seen anyone run trains from a tablet.....so far). It's not pretty. Maybe Lionel should consider selling "official reading glasses" for those running trains from the tiny screens on their cellphones.
If the objective is to attract the younger generation to model railroading..I get that. But how many of the younger generation can drop $2 grand on an engine?
Anyway...am I buying a CAB3? Mmmmmm....no.
And yes, its my understanding MTH is heading in the same direction. Sigh.....
I guess I need to chalk it up to "progress".
Just my 2 cents (now where's the cents sign on my tablet's keyboard).......sigh.
Now CAB3 is due out and......there's no Remote!? And its not backward compatible with the snazzy, fully enhanced CAB2 Remote? I'm so confused.
You are so wrong you are able to use the cab 2 remotes with the cab 3 I think you need to go back and watch Daves videos on youtube.
@Vernon Barry....I deleted my post. I realized that I was venting and that has no value here.
@Junior posted:I gotta tell ya....Lionel's Product Succession Planning completely alludes me.
They came out with CAB1 and Remote...GREAT! Then CAB1L and Remote came out (for Legacy support]....makes sense. Then CAB2 and totally redesigned Remote came out (for full Legacy functionality)....fantastic.
Actually, TMCC was first. Then lionel came out with the Legacy Cab 2 .
At that point the TMCC cab 1 was discontinued and deemed obsolete. Then (after folks complained possibly) the Cab 1 reappeared as the Cab1L with legacy compatible electronics. Then years later, Lionchief Locos 2.0 became equipped with Tmcc 🤔
So really, it's even more confusing than you first thought. The Lionchief stuff is worse. Having said all that, maybe... if enough folks complain. Maybe Lionel can come up with a Cab 3. I'm not concerned, I grabbed and extra Cab 2 for under 300 bucks right before the official discontinuation announcement.
Compatibility is always an issue and not just in running trains and sometimes you have to wonder what manufactures are thinking and sometimes they get it right and sometimes they don't and sometimes they finally come around.
I was not initially a LionChief advocate but after seeing kids who have not seen or played with a train before and you hand them a LionChief controller, give them a little overview and they are off and running having fun running a train for the first time.
Now we have trains that are compatible with all the controllers which allows the younger generation to move forward with the technology that is presented to them and they seem to pick it up pretty fast, especially in the world of computers.
We are all passionate about how we run our trains and we spend a lot of hard earned money doing so and it never ceases to amaze me how this forum works together to make that happen. I learned a lot from Marty Fitzhenry when I first got into this hobby as he always worked with all the manufactures to better the hobby, not to mention all the help he provided to everyone in the world of trains.
I am optimistic that everything will come out in the wash, it might just take a little time.
Nothing we can do about it We will be getting the CAB3 at some point whatever we like it or not. I still do not understand Lionel's long term reasoning for this product. Oh yea i get 'everyone has a phone...blah blah...and they can do SW/FW updates over the air...blah blah' but where are they going with this? No remote?? Who is really at the switch at Lionel making these long term technology decisions? Obviously, they are having MAJOR issues getting this thing to market...OY
@Don Beck posted:No remote?? Who is really at the switch at Lionel making these long term technology decisions? Obviously, they are having MAJOR issues getting this thing to market...OY
The bean counters at Lionel have the wheel, and they've decided not to invest in a new remote. It's all about the bucks, they save money by not having any physical remote.
Could the Legacy hand controller be updated for 4 digit I.D.'s and any future functions?
@Don Beck posted:Nothing we can do about it We will be getting the CAB3 at some point whatever we like it or not. I still do not understand Lionel's long term reasoning for this product. Oh yea i get 'everyone has a phone...blah blah...and they can do SW/FW updates over the air...blah blah' but where are they going with this? No remote?? Who is really at the switch at Lionel making these long term technology decisions? Obviously, they are having MAJOR issues getting this thing to market...OY
Don,
Although quite a few of us do generally agree with you, there are many who do not and have accepted what appears to be inevitable. More importantly, and to be fair, you and I and the rest of us who agree are not automatically getting a perfect view in our crystal ball, justifying such confidence in our position.
It costs big money to develop custom hardware for a handheld. This would require a commitment to the hobby by the major players that doesn't presently appear to exist.
As a result a third party may have to come in and handle our needs. Although licensing issues might get in the way, with a good vision, hardware and software expertise, and a solid sales pitch such an organization may just be able to get the job done.
BTW -- Just to be clear it's the Cab 3 App for our phones that we'll be getting at some point whether we like it or not. I think that's what you meant?
Mike
Yes And sorry to be fair. Lionel continues to develop very expensive locos, so money is not the only issue here
@Larry Brown posted:I was not initially a LionChief advocate but after seeing kids who have not seen or played with a train before and you hand them a LionChief controller, give them a little overview and they are off and running having fun running a train for the first time.
Now we have trains that are compatible with all the controllers which allows the younger generation to move forward with the technology that is presented to them and they seem to pick it up pretty fast, especially in the world of computers.
Larry,
You're right on track here, and I share your optimism, but I'm going to nitpick just a little. If these kids are finding technology so easy to adopt then you or I should be able to dispense with LionChief and hand them a Cab 2 controller instead, right off the bat.
They should also be able to get off and running a train for the first time with a Cab 2, should they not?
Mike
Most of us are pretty happy with CAB2. Why not do a CAB2 plus? All of this R and D and $ to add 4 digit address? Who cares. How many of us have 99 locos? And over the air updates and the ability to run ALL Of Lionel’s. It seems a big missed opportunity. We shall see. Meanwhile no new Base3 or App.
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:It costs big money to develop custom hardware for a handheld. This would require a commitment to the hobby by the major players that doesn't presently appear to exist.
I can't imagine it costs that much, I think it's more simply pinching pennies by Lionel. Truthfully, the people with the money simply don't have the interest in the actual business. It appears they're more interested in squeezing as much profit out of the business as possible in the short term.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I can't imagine it costs that much, I think it's more simply pinching pennies by Lionel. Truthfully, the people with the money simply don't have the interest in the actual business. It appears they're more interested in squeezing as much profit out of the business as possible in the short term.
John,
Is the tooling for a handheld on the order of that for a detailed steamer? Probably not, but very few detailed steamers are tooled up completely from scratch anymore.
There's a lot of truth in what you're saying here.
The difference between a handheld and a detailed steamer or diesel is that one needs to know electronics and modeling both equally well for a new handled to be considered "low risk". I don't think our large players currently do.
Perceived risk in the investment is the problem here. Presently steamers and diesels appear to be much more likely to be considered low risk than handhelds. To the players, using a phone as a platform for control presently appears to incur the lowest risk.
Mike
Thought #1 - As much as it sucks working at a penny-pinching company, it sucks works worse working at a company that is losing money and goes out of business, especially at the bottom of a recession. Guess what? If a company goes out of business, there is no more COBRA.
Thought #2 - The company I work at now has found out a microprocessor will be obsoleted and many products will need to be redesigned and re-tested. All this money will be spent for NOTHING, just eating up profits and bonuses. The company's strategy is to NOT obsolete our products.
The trains are so so sophisticated now, what exactly would you all like to see them add to make this hobby more enjoyable? I don't get Lionels long term goals here.
Lionel does not need long term goals there major competition is no longer competition MTH is gone and Lionel is going back to where they were in the 90's expensive no quality control and now they can drag their feet on the cab 3 because no threat exists.
When I run my trains, I use a Cab1-L, and while I have a Cab2, I don't use it much unless running a train that has a lot of extra features. The touch-pad saves me from having to remember all the button presses. A Cab1-L is perfect for me, and it is still available. While I do think there is a need for a Cab3 (previously iCab), and it can add to the experience, it is not for everyone.
I don't believe Lionel is dragging their feet, there is a lot on their plate, and I can speak to that directly as I developed a lot of technology for Lionel for many years. It takes time to design, test, and manufacture, as there is a limited budget. I know that the team at Lionel wants the Base3 and Cab3 released to the hobby, because they have so much energy invested in the design and development. I can confirm it will be worth the wait, don't ask me how I know.
The Base3 system will only improve over time, and the need to bring all of the disparate control systems to work smoothly together will make running the trains easier, no matter the technology inside. After all, it is about running the trains, not figuring out the technology inside them. Every now and then part obsolescence and the need to unify the various technologies needs to happen, it is not an easy path to follow.
As there was a lot of "discovery" when Legacy was introduced, the LUG meetings really helped to bring a new dimension to the running of our trains. I am hopeful that the Base3 will generate as much fun and excitement as Legacy brought quite a few years ago. I think it will.
Happy Easter,
Bottom line for me still is: No CAB3, no new Base 3 being ordered.
And I hope that Lionel sees that there are a lot of us like that when marketing decides whether to make a CAB3 or not.
My question is, when did MTH disappear? MTH has changed their business model and they now sell more trains then ever. And they do have a new DCS/WIFI System in the pipeline but they are in the same boat as Lionel, when will it be manufactured and be available for us? Who knows, probably about the same time the CAB3 arrives. My bigger concern is Lionel continues to manufacture these expensive engines and they have given us no option for electronic parts to repair the engines we currently own. There is no way you will ever convince me that all those electronic parts just disappeared right before the half price sale last November.
Just my 2¢
WOW, I must say I never expected my inquiry into the CAB3 to generate so many replies all of which were really good. I wish I had the time to respond to each as they were all well done, and I am sure respected by all.
We even had the previous (and well respected) CTO of Lionel respond and I agree with his feedback as everything "especially really good things" takes time. There is an old saying around "you need to crawl before you can walk" and sometimes it takes a little time to get there.
I also appreciated the "demeaner" in which all responded which goes back to "train people" being very "special people" as when you get right down to it, we all just want to to run our trains and have fun, as we only get so much time on this earth.
If you could ask Marty he would tell you the same thing.
Something important that nobody is discussing is Lionel’s commitment to maintaining and updating the CAB-3 app. Look at history as your guide. iCab hasn’t been updated in 6 years! I sent a list of bugs to Lionel several years ago. But they weren’t addressed. It’s business. They moved on to other projects. The primary issue with apps is that, unlike a hardware remote, constant developer intervention is necessary to keep it updated and running . Each new iOS version can potentially break an app. Backing up apps isn’t a guarantee either. Backups for iOS are only links to download whatever the latest version is in the App Store. If Lionel were to disappear, the app would vanish too. Remotes don’t. I have a pre-order in for a BASE-3 but I don’t have a good feeling about the software support. And MTH is no better. They haven’t updated their app in 4 years. Neither company has displayed a good record when it comes to supporting and updating these apps that are the so called way of the future.
@GregR posted:Neither company has displayed a good record when it comes to supporting and updating these apps that are the so called way of the future.
An excellent point! 
@Don Beck posted:Most of us are pretty happy with CAB2. Why not do a CAB2 plus? All of this R and D and $ to add 4 digit address? Who cares. How many of us have 99 locos? And over the air updates and the ability to run ALL Of Lionel’s. It seems a big missed opportunity. We shall see. Meanwhile no new Base3 or App.
Don,
I agree with you about most of us being happy with the cab2. With the cab3 being an app I'm sure Lionel is trying to influence the next generation of kids that want to get into trains. 4 digit address, I'm right there with you. Just seems like Lionel can get a new fan base and make more money, so come up with a new command system that will bring everything together, then Lionel will release/ rerelease locomotives to 4 digit address. The wheels just keep spinning IMO.
Many people bring up kids and this hobby. This ain’t the 50’s. My personal view is that kids will become adults before entering the hobby. You simply don’t see small layouts on this forum or magazines that are owned and operated by children. The collections on the walls and monstrous layouts are all from adults after spending thousands of dollars. Forget the apps and put simplicity back into the trains.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I can't imagine it costs that much, I think it's more simply pinching pennies by Lionel. Truthfully, the people with the money simply don't have the interest in the actual business. It appears they're more interested in squeezing as much profit out of the business as possible in the short term.
Ahh, financialization. While I admired and regularly read the late economist Milton Friedman's newspaper columns as a young man, I believe that the whole "shareholder value" thing has gone too far and is a major (though often subconscious) contributor to today's political angst/frustration. I'm not going to lobby for two trainmen on every train, in addition to the engineer and conductor, but PSR, a shareholder value derivative, doesn't optimize overall performance, when one considers shareholders, shippers, and employees. The same can be said, in a different context, on the model railway front.
I look forward to the Base 3 whenever it arrives and with whatever glitches it includes at release. It's another arrow in the quiver, which is why I acquired a Cab-1L, in addition to my TMCC Cab-1, and Cab-2 well after my Base 3 order was placed. A year from now (hopefully), I'll be able to run most of my locos with the original TMCC controller, Cab-1L, Cab-2, Bluetooth via Cab-3, and run a few others via Lionel Bluetooth or BluRail/Blunami. A feast of options! (Only lacking DCS because I have no modern MTH locos.)
Do I need a new handheld? Not if what I have continues to work. Am I comfy with smartphone/tablet only? TBD, but open to trying it out.
Legacy came out in 2007, and I know it is now 16 year-old technology, but it worked! I understand that technology generally improves over time and is updated or replaced, but what was so wrong with engines from that time? What do the new engines do that is so much better or desired over engines from 5 to 16 years ago?
So now we have expensive engines that we are waiting for a way to control them with access to all of their features. How long will the Base3 be in vogue before a Base4 is announced?
@illinoiscentral posted:Thought #2 - The company I work at now has found out a microprocessor will be obsoleted and many products will need to be redesigned and re-tested. All this money will be spent for NOTHING, just eating up profits and bonuses. The company's strategy is to NOT obsolete our products.
Thought #3…
Why not base the Cab-2 successor on the same microprocessor that is being used on the new Legacy boards that are in the locomotives?
Why isn’t there a parts shortage problem with the electronics that go into the locomotives?
@SantaFeFan posted:I don't believe Lionel is dragging their feet, there is a lot on their plate, and I can speak to that directly as I developed a lot of technology for Lionel for many years. It takes time to design, test, and manufacture, as there is a limited budget. I know that the team at Lionel wants the Base3 and Cab3 released to the hobby, because they have so much energy invested in the design and development. I can confirm it will be worth the wait, don't ask me how I know.
The Base3 system will only improve over time, and the need to bring all of the disparate control systems to work smoothly together will make running the trains easier, no matter the technology inside. After all, it is about running the trains, not figuring out the technology inside them. Every now and then part obsolescence and the need to unify the various technologies needs to happen, it is not an easy path to follow.
They probably aren’t dragging their feet. What happened is they made an architectural mistake…
They essentially put two control systems and three command systems in one box. And, made them tightly coupled.
Control: wifi and cab2/cab1L RF
Command: Bluetooth, LionChief, and Legacy
The original LCS approached this in a modular way, allowing components to be “loosely coupled” (via serial or PDI) and added at the owners’ level of need. E.g wifi module etc.
If they can’t produce a new physical remote with one control interface (Legacy 2.4GHz signal) while dealing with parts obsolescence, what makes them think they’ll be able to manage and support the Base3 over the long haul?
@Frank Mulligan posted:Legacy came out in 2007, and I know it is now 16 year-old technology, but it worked! I understand that technology generally improves over time and is updated or replaced, but what was so wrong with engines from that time? What do the new engines do that is so much better or desired over engines from 5 to 16 years ago?
The only thing that has improved are the number of effects (whistle, blowdown, pop-off, and cylinder steam) and the quality of the sounds. That said, you’re correct, the Base3 and four digit addressing isn’t required for that.
So now we have expensive engines that we are waiting for a way to control them with access to all of their features. How long will the Base3 be in vogue before a Base4 is announced?
This is the crux of the problem. Lionel doesn’t have a way to enable all of the Legacy features with the current conventional, universal remote, and Bluetooth control options.
A Cab-1L doesn’t do it either.
@rplst8 posted:Thought #3…
Why not base the Cab-2 successor on the same microprocessor that is being used on the new Legacy boards that are in the locomotives?
Why isn’t there a parts shortage problem with the electronics that go into the locomotives?
Good questions.
However the micro in the Cab 2 does very different things than the one(s) in the locomotives. User interface vs. motor and feature control. Could the same one be used? Most likely but not efficiently, in both size and cost.
Secondly, maybe there is also a shortage in the micros that go in the locomotives. How do we know?
Lastly, I don't think that anyone's actually said that there's a shortage of either. Are we just assuming so? It could be that some parts are just not going to be made anymore and there are no easy replacements to be found.
My choice for show-stopper isn't the micros but the unique flexible plastic display/touch pad used for the virtual, programmable keys. The Cab 2 is the only device I've ever seen that uses this technology. Smartphones don't, most appliances don't -- they have glass touchscreens. Where does Lionel find a replacement for this?
Mike
Jon Z. is optimistic, so that's a good sign. He's the only one commenting who has detailed and hands on knowledge about the development of Lionel command control systems. New systems can be problematic and people don't like change.
Editorial rant here: LionChief, despite all the bad mouthing by people who don't use it 
, was rock solid pretty much from the getgo and has remained that way. The Universal Remote and the remotes that came with the sets/locos were inexpensive and very reliable. LionChief enabled Lionel to keep set prices very low compared with the competition for many years. Time passes and stuff changes. MTH doesn't make sets at all. Lionel sets are more expensive. Not that anyone here seems to care, one way or the other. But dealers and average consumers care.
The Base 3 and whatever comes along with it down the road is targeted at this group--the folks with big investments in their hobby and lots of technical sophistication. Jon Z. uses his cab-1L and he's forgotten more about technology than 99.999% of the people in the hobby. So we'll just have to see how things play out. Some folks will be unhappy and some will adjust. When DCS/PS2 came out (and Legacy) there were all sorts of folks wringing their hands and complaining about various stuff, and the Base 3 will be no different. Change ain't easy. Stay chill.....
Thank goodness I’m a conventional/analog operator when it comes to my 0 gauge trains.
@Landsteiner posted:Jon Z. is optimistic, so that's a good sign. He's the only one commenting who has detailed and hands on knowledge about the development of Lionel command control systems. New systems can be problematic and people don't like change.
Interesting thread!
@Landsteiner. Could you please elaborate on this? I could not find a previous reference (is he one of the posters above?). Thanks
Jon Z. uses his cab-1L and he's forgotten more about technology than 99.999% of the people in the hobby.
Forgotten it? I invented a lot of it, patented it, and many products are still being sold and used after 20 years! I just like my Cab1. The batteries last for years, it is always on with a key press, quills the horn, runs the trains. Good enough to relax and get my “fix”.
@rplst8 posted:They probably aren’t dragging their feet. What happened is they made an architectural mistake…
They essentially put two control systems and three command systems in one box. And, made them tightly coupled.
Control: wifi and cab2/cab1L RF
Command: Bluetooth, LionChief, and LegacyThe original LCS approached this in a modular way, allowing components to be “loosely coupled” (via serial or PDI) and added at the owners’ level of need. E.g wifi module etc.
If they can’t produce a new physical remote with one control interface (Legacy 2.4GHz signal) while dealing with parts obsolescence, what makes them think they’ll be able to manage and support the Base3 over the long haul?
As Clyde Coil would comment “Even Magneta would be impressed with the Base3”. I could say more, but there’s that NDA Dr. ZW signed, dang!
I confess I use the CAB1L most of the time, but I do like the CAB2 for when I want to exercise some of the fancy features like wheel-spin with the Big Boy or Challenger.
@SantaFeFan posted:Jon Z. uses his cab-1L and he's forgotten more about technology than 99.999% of the people in the hobby.
Forgotten it? I invented a lot of it, patented it, and many products are still being sold and used after 20 years! I just like my Cab1. The batteries last for years, it is always on with a key press, quills the horn, runs the trains. Good enough to relax and get my “fix”.
ok, the dots are connected. Too bad about those pesky NDAs!
@SantaFeFan posted:As Clyde Coil would comment “Even Magneta would be impressed with the Base3”. I could say more, but there’s that NDA Dr. ZW signed, dang!
I'd love to be a fly on the wall if you and those other two former Lionel employees ever got together. lol!
@RickO posted:I'd love to be a fly on the wall if you and those other two former Lionel employees ever got together. lol!
We all still keep in touch often! Lou, Neil, John, Mark, Bruce, Tyler, and I chat on the phone and exchange emails. Neil offers to assist Lionel when we chat. What an amazing time it was back in 2006, all driven by an unbelievable passion to create a system so unique and innovative. Everyone is doing well and prospering.
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:My choice for show-stopper isn't the micros but the unique flexible plastic display/touch pad used for the virtual, programmable keys. The Cab 2 is the only device I've ever seen that uses this technology. Smartphones don't, most appliances don't -- they have glass touchscreens. Where does Lionel find a replacement for this?
A glass touch screen could replace the dot matrix touch buttons just fine. What makes the Legacy Cab-2 the best option to control Lionel trains is:
- the detented red rotary encoder for speed control.
- the train brake slider
- the whistle/horn slider
- the brake/boost scroll wheel
in two words… tactile feedback.
@rplst8 posted:A glass touch screen could replace the dot matrix touch buttons just fine. What makes the Legacy Cab-2 the best option to control Lionel trains is:
- the detented red rotary encoder for speed control.
- the train brake slider
- the whistle/horn slider
- the brake/boost scroll wheel
in two words… tactile feedback.
Which can be accomplished with an app and a connected gamepad-style controller.
My gripe about all of the current & past controllers is the ergonomics. In the early 90s while the CAB1 was still on the drawing board who seriously thought of that design? All they had to do is look at how some of the then-current gaming systems evolved from their 70s & 80's predecessors to come up with a better design. Instead, it was the Intellivision from the '70s that won:
But even the old Intellivision controller had buttons on the side that could be used by other fingers.
And again in the early 2000s, they could have easily looked at what Nintendo & Sony both did with their console controllers to build a more ergonomic handheld.
Tactile feedback is nice but if the controller has poor ergonomics, the experince becomes a real downer.
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@SantaFeFan posted:We all still keep in touch often! Lou, Neil, John, Mark, Bruce, Tyler, and I chat on the phone and exchange emails. Neil offers to assist Lionel when we chat. What an amazing time it was back in 2006, all driven by an unbelievable passion to create a system so unique and innovative. Everyone is doing well and prospering.
You must have been quite a team, the result was certainly stellar! 
"I invented a lot of it, patented it, and many products are still being sold and used after 20 years! I just like my Cab1. The batteries last for years, it is always on with a key press, quills the horn, runs the trains. Good enough to relax and get my “fix”. "
My apologies. Rushing to post before our Easter Brunch with son and his wife . Should have read "Jon Z uses his cab-1L. And he has forgotten more about Lionel command systems than 99.999% of hobbyists know."
Point being each of us has our preferences. Contrary to what some think, those preferences have virtually nothing to do with one's expertise or insights. All about what one likes.
Lionel cannot please everyone all the time, but they've managed to do well enough to be the dominant manufacturer of starter sets and command technologies over the last 25+ years. Make that 120+ years. Give Ryan, Dave and their teams time, and they likely will find the sweet spot in the marketplace, albeit constrained by resources, including market size and money. It's easy for those of us who don't work within those constraints and realities to make decisions for them, with no consequences, of course .
@H1000 posted:Which can be accomplished with an app and a connected gamepad-style controller.
My gripe about all of the current & past controllers is the ergonomics. In the early 90s while the CAB1 was still on the drawing board who seriously thought of that design? All they had to do is look at how some of the then-current gaming systems evolved from their 70s & 80's predecessors to come up with a better design. Instead, it was the Intellivision from the '70s that won:
But even the old Intellivision controller had buttons on the side that could be used by other fingers.
And again in the early 2000s, they could have easily looked at what Nintendo & Sony both did with their console controllers to build a more ergonomic handheld.
Tactile feedback is nice but if the controller has poor ergonomics, the experince becomes a real downer.
So many, many, many people have been, and continue to be, happy with the Cab 1 and the 1L. It's apparent that you don't share this opinion.
Especially in light of the discontinuances these folks are committed to seeing them (at least the 1L) go on as long as possible.
Is this a good time to be hammering on that original design?
Do you have any specific suggestions for improvements? If so, they probably won't be considered anyway since the end, and not the future, for handhelds seems to be near.
But if you will maybe you can tell us that you have a specific way to make smartphones naturally ergonomic for controlling things that move? There seems to be a need for this.
Mike
Wow another Base 3 discussion.
While I prefer to use my Cab2, I have operated my trains with HighRail App and iCab. I prefer the tactile feel of the remote. That being said I look forward to the Base 3 that will open up so much more and still allow all those who like the Cab 2 and Cab1L to continue to use them. Technology is moving forward. An App allows for so much more because it's not limited by hardware. Functions can be added to our trains and a control added to the app.
When all else fails the Cab2 still works with it. IMO the advantages will outweigh any perceived negatives. When Base3 is released I hope the Legacy Users Group can get together with Dave and do what we did with Legacy!
The fracas in the Taiwan Straits may delay all train stuff! I love my transformers.
Gunny
@MartyE posted:Wow another Base 3 discussion.
That being said I look forward to the Base 3 that will open up so much more and still allow all those who like the Cab 2 and Cab1L to continue to use them. Technology is moving forward. An App allows for so much more because it's not limited by hardware.
Like what? Other than the four digit engine address nothing has been announced. I don’t have 99 engines plus one so a Base 3 doesn’t give me anything new over my current setup and I suspect 99% of us are in the same boat.
I do feel those who want to get into command and due to what ever reason Lionel won’t have a system to sell for well over a year.
It seems like a "solution looking for a problem" MSRP, what around $500? Please I don't need an expensive devise in order that I get four digit addressing and SW/FW updates. The ones done on the CAB2 over the years were minor and easy to upgrade. And as been beat to death, using my phone/tablet to run my trains? Please. And Oh yes, a way so that all, (in my case, none) of the various other Lionel hand held's can be used by one unit? What joke. Sorry, Dave, et.al. you guys really needed to think thru a bit more.
So many, many, many people have been, and continue to be, happy with the Cab 1 and the 1L. It's apparent that you don't share this opinion.
Perhaps because there were no other options to choose from. If you don't like it, too bad because it's not evolving until a completely new replacement system is released. Even Nintendo in the 80's realized that their block square controllers needed help and released better options that fit in the user's hands better and with additional control features.
Is this a good time to be hammering on that original design?
Given the complete inability from 30 years ago to think outside of a literal "box" design, I wouldn't put much faith in their ability to build a better "One size fits some" remote today. Even the DCS & CAB2 remotes were sub-par for their time, but we bought and adapted to them because that's all there was available.
Do you have any specific suggestions for improvements? If so, they probably won't be considered anyway since the end, and not the future, for handhelds seems to be near.
Yeah, look at some modern high-end TV remotes and build something that naturally fits in your hand, and don't over compensate with size. If you're going to copy the Intellivision controller, at least incorporate the side buttons to enhance the usability and find ways to make the other four fingers of your hand usable beyond just holding the remote. Maybe make those side button functions customizable to whatever you as an operator want, they were already halfway there with the implementation of the "big red button".
But if you will maybe you can tell us that you have a specific way to make smartphones naturally ergonomic for controlling things that move? There seems to be a need for this.
Connected gamepads so that you can customize specific functions and commands to the buttons you want. Plenty of automation in this world already uses a smartphone interface with analog add-on controls similar to this in many industries. Heck, our seed dealer for our farm uses a gantry crane to load our trucks that run on an Android tablet with an add-on joystick. They can operate it via a touch screen or with the joystick attached to the tablet. Pick the controller that best fits your hands & meets your needs by customizing the buttons to match how your layout operates. Lionel could even build their gamepad interface module for Apple & Android devices and market it in their own catalog. Set it up with a default button layout but also allow the end user to remap button locations to their liking.
NOTE: PHOTOS DELETED PER OGR TOS COPYRIGHT POLICY
Here's my $.02 on the controller debate. First- I don't want to run my trains with a cell phone, or any other touch screen device. My favorite features of the CAB-2 were its absolute speed steps, and the detents of the Big Red Knob. Yes it was bulky, but it had a precision feel which is absent from the CAB-1 and CAB-1L.
I grew up with video games, owned and played most of the systems. I'm not convinced that a game controller with joysticks, triggers, etc., is necessary or desirable to run model trains. If the controller supports ergonomic one-handed operation, that's a boon. None of the controllers in the image above except possibly the last one could be used one-handed.
There are companies that make purpose-built model train controllers. North Coast Engineering (NCE) comes to mind. It was apparent 20 years ago that the DCS hand-held was just an inferior copy of the NCE controller. Presently, CVP Products (AirWire), and especially Ring Engineering (RailPro) make controllers. I've tried them both, and I like them both. These are much smaller companies than Lionel, yet somehow they are able to make and sell their own physical controllers. I'm still hoping for a CAB-3 to go with my BASE-3. Perhaps Lionel could make a deal with one of these companies?
First- I don't want to run my trains with a cell phone, or any other touch screen device.
The RailPro device you "like" is pretty much a smartphone device with a rotary knob. Everything you do on that thing is touch screen except turning that knob. If a turning knob is your requirement, why can't rolling a joystick in a circular motion CW or CCW accomplish the same feeling.
None of the controllers in the image above except possibly the last one could be used one-handed.
Some other controllers that are also not one handed - Cab1, Cab2, MTH DCS Remote, Railpro, CVP Airwire, NCE ProCab. While some functions can be operated with only one hand on these devices, their design still requires two hands to properly use the remotes. I don't know of anyone with long enough thumbs to reach the big red wheel on a CAB remote without using their other hand. This isn't an argument to say that app-based remotes are one-handed, but rather that every remote available to us (past & present) requires two hands for complete operation (except maybe the Lionchief remotes).
I'm still hoping for a CAB-3 to go with my BASE-3. Perhaps Lionel could make a deal with one of these companies?
I believe that the path forward for a CAB3 hardware remote will be utilizing the current CAB3 app with an add-on peripheral. I think that it would be very possible for Lionel to build (or contract with a 3rd party) a device that works exclusively with the CAB3 app.
I guess my advice would be to hang on to your controllers if that's what is causing you angst. As long as Lionel has parts they'll repair them.
As far as Base3 if you are only thinking you are getting 4 digit addressing out of it, I think you will be sadly mistaken. I suspect with this platform there can be features and operational functionality added pretty easily. While the hardware remote will be left behind the App will be able to integrate them easily into it's control.
What I don't understand is if you already have a Legacy System and are happy with it and Lionel will repair them at least for the foreseeable future then why are you upset about Base3? You don't seem to have anything to lose.
Personally I do like a remote but I am also someone that understands the need to move away from hardware based remotes and let someone else deal with that. It's not perfect but as long as Lionel can make an app that is responsive I think I'll be able to make the transition. Besides I'll still have my Cab2 and personally I think I probably look at my remote more than I think.
Again I think the possibilities outweigh the perceived negatives. I'll be the first to say though I could be wrong but the Legacy Users Group is looking forward to seeing what Dave and his team came up with.
@H1000 posted:I don't know of anyone with long enough thumbs to reach the big red wheel on a CAB remote without using their other hand. This isn't an argument to say that app-based remotes are one-handed, but rather that every remote available to us (past & present) requires two hands for complete operation (except maybe the Lionchief remotes).
Well maybe I'm a freak of nature but I operate the cab 2 one handed all of the time. No issues reaching the"big red knob" as you say either.
I like having one hand free to, throw a switch, grab rolling stock, pan a camera, sip a coffee or a beer etc.
The big red knob is actually a good design because it gives the user a relative idea of how much "throttle" they are giving , by the amount of rotation without having to look at anything. The number one complaint with The DCS handheld ,is the thumb wheel which has to be repeatedly scrolled to control throttle.
There is not enough travel on a gaming joystick to slowly modulate through 200 speed steps, with 1/2"of travel, it'll be all or nothing.
A gaming controller is designed to execute a multitude of commands in seconds. We aren't constantly accessing every single function on our trains every minute of run time. Not to mention. The features don't respond that fast anyway. Most of the time the train is running around the layout and ringing the whistle and bell. There simply is no need to have multiple fingers at the ready.
All of the "meat and potatoes " train operation can be accessed on the cab 2 without ever looking at the remote. I do it every operating session, one handed, even reaching the "big red knob". I've done multiple switching moves etc. One handed, without issue, not looking at a remote, or a screen, but the trains. Which imo, is the whole point.
Having said all of that. I suspect there's always a "chance" that we could see a new handheld in the future. The Cab1 was deemed obsolete, then eventually reappeared as the Cab1L. A few years later Tmcc reappeared in Lionchief 2.0.
I exclusively use the cab2 to control my trains. I still have cab1 that sits gathering dust just in case my cab2 breaks and it needs to go in for repair. I would love a new Cab 3 remote but that is not a viable option right now. I spoke with Dave Olsen about a Cab3. His reply was that it was not economically feasible to create one at this time without the price been ridiculously high. He specifically stated that creating a remote with a touch screen using current technology was expensive. We have already seen Lionel having to stop making the IRV2 sensors due to the price increase of components. Dave Olsen stated that on the forum months ago. As long as Lionel can keep my Cab2 working, I'm good. I didn't order a base 3, not because of the remote, but because I don't have any Lion Chief locs. Lion Chief 2.0 Plus engines support TMCC so all my locs work with one remote. There is no benefit for me to get a Base 3. After its out, and they offer new features in engines that require a base 3, I would consider it at that point. 4 digit addressing is not a feature I need as I don't own that many engines. For those that got started with Lion Chief locs and want to get into more feature engines with Legacy, the base 3 makes a lot of sense. Now, all your locs can be controlled with one system. That's a great upgrade path for those that started with Lion Chief.
I appreciate the discussion on a physical hand held and agree if the Cab 2 could be updated, you have the physical shell.
What I am still not clear on is the "value proposition" that the Base 3 is going to bring me. What will it allow me to do that I can't do today
My Cab 2 works fine (for now) and I also use the DCS app with Wi-Fi.
John
" For those that got started with Lion Chief locs and want to get into more feature engines with Legacy, the base 3 makes a lot of sense. Now, all your locs can be controlled with one system. That's a great upgrade path for those that started with Lion Chief."
No doubt this is one of the main purposes of the Base 3. One command base to serve them all .
@MartyE posted:As far as Base3 if you are only thinking you are getting 4 digit addressing out of it, I think you will be sadly mistaken. I suspect with this platform there can be features and operational functionality added pretty easily. While the hardware remote will be left behind the App will be able to integrate them easily into it's control.
If there are other features, they should advertise them. They might get more buyers.
Part of me wonders if the delays are related to a lack over preorders to make the whole thing practical in quantity.
That said, the way they should be approaching it is as an enabler for sales of locos. It should be similar to how Nintendo sells the systems at a slight loss or break even to make money on games.
Disagree The longer they wait to deliver, the more people will be come dis enchanted and dis interested. They got issues with this thing! Lionel added many features over the years to the CAB2. We wait...and wait...and wait....
@RickO posted:The number one complaint with The DCS handheld ,is the thumb wheel which has to be repeatedly scrolled to control throttle.
Our problem with the fragile thumb wheel is that it also is the selector button, MTH needed another button for that.
@SantaFeFan posted:I know that the team at Lionel wants the Base3 and Cab3 released to the hobby, because they have so much energy invested in the design and development. I can confirm it will be worth the wait, don't ask me how I know.
Titillating statement, that. 
One controller able to control everything will be quite an achievement. It doesn't seem surprising that it's taking a while to get it right. It was unfortunate timing for Lionel that the unavailablility of parts caused the demise of the Cab 2, and parts shortages affected Cab 1L availability, before they were able to get the Cab 3 completed and on the shelves.
These electronic parts shortages are everywhere, as we know. I have a friend who ordered a new GMC Yukon SUV (ordered more than a year ago) and received it in late February. He was told some of the features that would normally be on the vehicle wouldn't be on it. The reason - the chips necessary for the operation of those items were not available.
@SantaFeFan posted:We all still keep in touch often! Lou, Neil, John, Mark, Bruce, Tyler, and I chat on the phone and exchange emails. Neil offers to assist Lionel when we chat. What an amazing time it was back in 2006, all driven by an unbelievable passion to create a system so unique and innovative. Everyone is doing well and prospering.
Nice to hear that you guys are still hanging out together and doing well.
@rplst8 posted:If there are other features, they should advertise them. They might get more buyers.
Part of me wonders if the delays are related to a lack over preorders to make the whole thing practical in quantity.
That said, the way they should be approaching it is as an enabler for sales of locos. It should be similar to how Nintendo sells the systems at a slight loss or break even to make money on games.
Note I said features could be added which implies as Dave and his team create the ability to make a button or custom control is much simpler.
As far as preorders while I don’t know the numbers , Train Worlds Ken Jr. said more than once his preorders were very high. I suspect that’s true with other vendors.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The bean counters at Lionel have the wheel, and they've decided not to invest in a new remote. It's all about the bucks, they save money by not having any physical remote.
This is why the Cab2 Legacy should/can be adaptable to any updates and modernization.
A phone app can still be used by those who choose to do so.
Otherwise. If the big money investors only see the Lionel corporation as a Golden goose.
It will be milked until it no longer can produce and runs dry.
The bosses are only trying to keep the liquid (cash) flowing out of this Goose.
Hash tag: suckers greed
P.T. Barnum
@Walter Anderson posted:This is why the Cab2 Legacy should/can be adaptable to any updates and modernization.
The CAB2 is over 15 years old roughly. No one could have anticipated all of the possible scenarios that would change in the last 15 years especially with a hardware based remote. Lionel has kept the Cab2 relevant by having it still operate as it does now with Base3. Any new features that Base3 is delivered with and any new functions and features Lionel may add can easily be added to an App and most likely with some customized controls. Maybe that is what you were saying?
I'm in no rush and it sounds like the right people are involved!
FWIW...Trainworld now has Base 3 availability as September 30th 2023. (Don't shoot the messenger!)
I have a question about the Cab2 data into the Cab3 device.
Is there a port to plug into that will download all the numbers from the Cab2 base and remote, to be brought up into the Cab3 base? Or will this data,( numbers of engines, kinds, etc.), will have to be all done over via hand or orange modules?
@laz1957 posted:I have a question about the Cab2 data into the Cab3 device.
Is there a port to plug into that will download all the numbers from the Cab2 base and remote, to be brought up into the Cab3 base? Or will this data,( numbers of engines, kinds, etc.), will have to be all done over via hand or orange modules?
That's a very good question for @Dave Olson to chime in on. How do we transfer existing databases to Base3? Can we use LSU to copy or convert the Legacy Base database to Base3 or will we have to rebuild?
@MartyE posted:That's a very good question for @Dave Olson to chime in on. How do we transfer existing databases to Base3? Can we use LSU to copy or convert the Legacy Base database to Base3 or will we have to rebuild?
The BASE3 will have a port that will accept a black memory module. You can upload everything from your old system to the module and download it to the BASE3 from that module. The BASE3 will even include a black writable memory module.
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OH MY, the issues that keep us up at night...SIGH
@H1000 posted:The BASE3 will have a port that will accept a black memory module. You can upload everything from your old system to the module and download it to the BASE3 from that module. The BASE3 will even include a black writable memory module.
Last I checked, the Black Module doesn't hold the ID for any engines, Train Build information, Switch and Accessory information. Sure you can create a Multi-Engine Module that contains the Names, Road Number and personality of the engines but without the database, there is no association with and ID.
I would hope there is a way to transfer the entire database. If not, for a smaller layout it probably won't be a big deal but for a large layout with a lot of TR (trains), Accessories, and Switches it could be a pain although 1 time. I suspect that LSU may get upgraded with a possible path to at least importing that existing Legacy (Base 2) information. Dave can tell us for sure.
@Don Beck posted:OH MY, the issues that keep us up at night...SIGH
I sleep pretty well.
Yea, me too...a gummy, a gummy there
I am an avid fan of remote control for running my Legacy and DCS locomotives and I'll never use an app on an iPhone or iPad. There are so many reasons why using a remote is preferred that I will not bore everyone here with me personal list. The proof in the pudding is the prices for remote systems in the secondary market. Given that the prices reflect scarcity and demand, using remotes seems to be very popular. There is no reason for me to buy a Base 3 without an updated remote control.
@MartyE posted:I would hope there is a way to transfer the entire database. If not, for a smaller layout it probably won't be a big deal but for a large layout with a lot of TR (trains), Accessories, and Switches it could be a pain although 1 time. I suspect that LSU may get upgraded with a possible path to at least importing that existing Legacy (Base 2) information. Dave can tell us for sure.
I'm confused, why would you think there would be a problem moving the BASE2 roster to the BASE3, it seems they clearly stated that was possible! See highlighted bullet point.
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@gunrunnerjohn posted:I'm confused, why would you think there would be a problem moving the BASE2 roster to the BASE3, it seems they clearly stated that was possible! See highlighted bullet point.
Again I have yet to meet a memory module that transfers a database. Yes you can get all the "Orange Module" information via a black Multi Engine module but at least as the modules and LSU stand today they cannot transfer engine IDs (associated with the engine data), switch, train, accessories and other database information. I would hope however you could use LSU to import your current Legacy database that does contain all that information.
@MartyE posted:Last I checked, the Black Module doesn't hold the ID for any engines, Train Build information, Switch and Accessory information. Sure you can create a Multi-Engine Module that contains the Names, Road Number and personality of the engines but without the database, there is no association with and ID.
I would hope there is a way to transfer the entire database. If not, for a smaller layout it probably won't be a big deal but for a large layout with a lot of TR (trains), Accessories, and Switches it could be a pain although 1 time. I suspect that LSU may get upgraded with a possible path to at least importing that existing Legacy (Base 2) information. Dave can tell us for sure.
Agree MARTY. I have been thinking of if there is a way to plug the Cab2 base or handheld into the Cab3 and do all the transfers from there? I am wondering if DAVE and his crew pondered this. Probably but it would be nice to know. I guess in time….
@laz1957 posted:Agree MARTY. I have been thinking of if there is a way to plug the Cab2 base or handheld into the Cab3 and do all the transfers from there? I am wondering if DAVE and his crew pondered this. Probably but it would be nice to know. I guess in time….
I would say if there is a way, which I suspect there is, it will be done via the LSU program. Right now we can already back up the Legacy base to a file on our PC so I think this would be the most logical way, via the LSU program. Whether they come up with an alternate would be a question for Dave.
BTW I have made several multi engine modules. It's a great feature. Even engines that don't have a factory module, once in the Legacy base are able to have their "personality" reside on the Black Module.
"using remotes seems to be very popular"
Indeed. Nobody wants to use their phone in HO to control their trains. So many remotes to choose from in HO and they still keep coming. You don't see the got to appeal to kids with phones for the hobby's future routine in HO.
- Crank
@Eccentric Crank posted:"using remotes seems to be very popular"
Indeed. Nobody wants to use their phone in HO to control their trains. So many remotes to choose from in HO and they still keep coming. You don't see the got to appeal to kids with phones for the hobby's future routine in HO.
- Crank
Yep........I've always thought that was a lame excuse. If they stop producing a designated remote, I am far less likely to buy any new train product; instead, I'll convert / upgrade the locos I have and be just as happy. Time in my train room is my escape from the phone / tablet.
@Eccentric Crank posted:"using remotes seems to be very popular"
Indeed. Nobody wants to use their phone in HO to control their trains. So many remotes to choose from in HO and they still keep coming. You don't see the got to appeal to kids with phones for the hobby's future routine in HO.
- Crank
Crank,
I hear ya, but ..
I don't think you can successfully speak for everyone. "Nobody" isn't the correct word, either in 'O' or in 'HO', or any other scale
Some people want to use their phone. Some people are ok with it, even if not totally satisfied.
Then there are the rest of us.
If you're trying, with the statements in your post, to convince the phone folks that using a phone is a doomed folly then you're going to fail.
How do I know this? They're trying just as hard to get us to abandon our handhelds. Tug of war. No one wins.
Neither approach is right here.
We need to drop the emotional appeals on both sides and we'll all be better off in the long run.
Mike
@MartyE posted:The CAB2 is over 15 years old roughly. No one could have anticipated all of the possible scenarios that would change in the last 15 years especially with a hardware based remote. Lionel has kept the Cab2 relevant by having it still operate as it does now with Base3. Any new features that Base3 is delivered with and any new functions and features Lionel may add can easily be added to an App and most likely with some customized controls. Maybe that is what you were saying?
My illiteracy of the technology belies my fondness of running trains.
I just want to run them without having my head spin.
I believe there's a point when too much technology hinders the enjoyment.
@Walter Anderson posted:My illiteracy of the technology belies my fondness of running trains.
I just want to run them without having my head spin.
I believe there's a point when too much technology hinders the enjoyment.
Agreed, Walter; it can be overwhelming, and if we spend less time running trains and more time tinkering with the system that controls them, what's the point? The thing I enjoy most about command control is the freedom to walk away from the transformer and run trains from anywhere in the room. I use the speed control, horn/whistle buttons, smoke and coupler controls, but that is about it. Maybe someday I'll use more of the features, but I doubt it.
@Walter Anderson posted:My illiteracy of the technology belies my fondness of running trains.
I just want to run them without having my head spin.
I believe there's a point when too much technology hinders the enjoyment.
Walter,
With your statements it appears that you're taking issue with everyone who's posted in this thread, one way or the other. This is so because the Base 3, and all command control before it, seems to be overkill for the hobby. Unfortunately we're interested in it and its future.
I highly respect your position and the care with which you chosen these words, but the answer for you is quite simple.
Just ignore it. With a few simple exceptions everything made over the years with command control in it also runs in conventional mode. You get to use your transformer just as you always have.
Don't let it bug you. Just realize that there has to be room for new things, as there has been for over 120 years. Command control has been here for almost 30 of those years. It's not new, but it once was.
In the end this situation is no different. When things get overwhelming remember to run the trains as you see fit, not as others might imply or suggest. The trains, your trains, are the important thing here and not what everyone else may be chattering about.
Mike
@Walter Anderson posted:My illiteracy of the technology belies my fondness of running trains.
I just want to run them without having my head spin.
I believe there's a point when too much technology hinders the enjoyment.
I'm with you on this. That said, there are many for whom the technology and operating it and tinkering with it are part of the enjoyment. I think it depends in part on how much time (plus interest and patience) one has to devote to understanding the ins and outs of the technology. I'm not there. I love command control, but have too many other demands on my time to spend a lot of it delving into the intricacies of all the electronics and gizmos. To me, even the Cab 2 has a learning curve that's fairly steep given the time I have to devote to it. Even if you learn how to do a certain thing, remembering that same procedure later is another question. The Cab 1L works for me. Judging from Santa Fe Fan's remarks, it appears those of us who prefer it are in good company!
Landsteiner,
Just saw your thread referring to finding the comment from the previous CTO of Lionel.
His call sign is SantaFeFan and he is the 24th response for this thread.
There were so many good responses to this thread I wish I had time to comment and/or reply on all of them. I was impressed with everyone's responses.
I am sure the Base 3 will make it at some point although wish someone at Lionel would reply as an example the two Dave's from the Dave and Dave show as have not heard anything from those guys in a while and then there was the Martye guy who used to coordinate the Lionel LUG meetings way back when although have not seen anything from him lately?
Obviously, the BASE 3 is a step in the right direction and hopefully down the line we will see a new handheld? There was a reply that someone commented around trying to get the new generation of kids into trains and I am afraid that is a tough one and for many reasons.
If we go back to a comment around all the expensive and sophisticated locomotives Lionel is putting out as the only folks that usually buy them are us old and retired folks with those that have the money to spend on them.
Of course there are other folks not retired who also can afford to do the same and it seems that somewhere along the line within Lionel they will recognize that. I am probably opening up a big can of worms here and I mean no disrespect.
Also, at the right age kids do pick up the control systems pretty fast if the interest is there and they have access to a layout? Game systems have been at the top for many years and will probably continue to do so?
Way to much technology out there that kids have access to and each kid is different.
Larry B.
Looks like I put my reply into the wrong thread as I thought I was putting it into "Lionel Products" and instead it got into Lionel Base 3.
Looks like I got my response into the right place and I see the Martye responses which is good as he has a lot of knowledge and experience in Lionel control systems.
Any estimates on the cost🤯🤯🤯of a new handheld?
@Walter Anderson posted:Any estimates on the cost🤯🤯🤯of a new handheld?
About $1,000,000 I guess, since there isn't one planned!
On the good news front, they're continuing production of the CAB1L, so there is a decent physical remote for more basic operations at least.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:About $1,000,000 I guess, since there isn't one planned!
Ha, only a cool million.......lol 😂
Chump change these days.
How ya doin John? Well I hope😉
Does anyone have an update on when the Lionel Base 3, Lionel part number L-2208010 will be available for purchase from any dealer in the US?
In a recent video from Dave, should be shipping from overseas in February, hitting dealers for you to purchase by April.
@MI-Marc posted:Does anyone have an update on when the Lionel Base 3, Lionel part number L-2208010 will be available for purchase from any dealer in the US?
I would highly suggest watching this. A lot of questions are answered straight from the source.
If development costs are an issue, then both Lionel and MTH should have adopted DCC rather than developing (mostly) proprietary systems of their own.
@MartyE posted:I would highly suggest watching this. A lot of questions are answered straight from the source.
Marty,
Great to put a face to a name. Thanks for getting this information for everyone.
@IC EC posted:If development costs are an issue, then both Lionel and MTH should have adopted DCC rather than developing (mostly) proprietary systems of their own.
I'm not sure about MTH, but Lionel has had their skin in the game for awhile, TMCC since 94' and legacy since 2006. Dave said in a video that the base3 has been in works long before base2 was going to be discontinued.
"If development costs are an issue, then both Lionel and MTH should have adopted DCC rather than developing (mostly) proprietary systems of their own."
At the time Lionel's TMCC was developed there were no DCC components that could be used for three rail O gauge and no digital sound systems available at all. So TMCC and Railsounds were answers to questions that DCC could not answer for many years afterward. Claims to the contrary are ignoring historical realities of the 1990s.
@Jerryc86 posted:I'm not sure about MTH, but Lionel has had their skin in the game for awhile, TMCC since 94' and legacy since 2006. Dave said in a video that the base3 has been in works long before base2 was going to be discontinued.
I'm pretty sure that Lionel expected to have the BASE3 several years ago, it just didn't happen for a variety of reasons.
@Jerryc86 posted:Marty,
Great to put a face to a name. Thanks for getting this information for everyone.
Thanks Jerry.
I think Dave has given us some great information and he really wants it in our hands but he also wants it to be right. I suspect along with the discussed hardware delays getting the App just right is a priority.
@Landsteiner posted:"If development costs are an issue, then both Lionel and MTH should have adopted DCC rather than developing (mostly) proprietary systems of their own."
At the time Lionel's TMCC was developed there were no DCC components that could be used for three rail O gauge and no digital sound systems available at all. So TMCC and Railsounds were answers to questions that DCC could not answer for many years afterward. Claims to the contrary are ignoring historical realities of the 1990s.
That is true and I really like both my Lionel Legacy and MTH DCS systems. Both systems have greatly improved model train operation, capability, realism, and sounds. However, if Lionel and MTH had, from the beginning, built upon a system used by the much larger HO community, we might not be in the current predicament with the lack of Lionel/MTH control systems and lack of handheld remotes. If only the Base 3 was compatible with DCC handhelds....
@IC EC posted:If only the Base 3 was compatible with DCC handhelds....
Gee, DCC handhelds aren't compatible with DCC systems! There are a ton of DCC makers, and I doubt many of the remotes work with competing systems.
@IC EC posted:That is true and I really like both my Lionel Legacy and MTH DCS systems. Both systems have greatly improved model train operation, capability, realism, and sounds. However, if Lionel and MTH had, from the beginning, built upon a system used by the much larger HO community, we might not be in the current predicament with the lack of Lionel/MTH control systems and lack of handheld remotes. If only the Base 3 was compatible with DCC handhelds....
If we're being fair about this, no one could have predicted the success of TMCC (especially in light of the fact that DCC was being developed around the same time) and it was fairly new technology. So I don't fault any of the manufacturers for not incorporating it into their locomotives. What I do fault them for, is not incorporating DCC support in their locomotive electronics. MTH rectified this when they released ProtoSound 3.0 and Lionel has at least demonstrated compatibility with it in the S-scale offerings.
Lack of full DCC support by the manufactures on new locos today is inexcusable at this point, and not providing drop in board replacements at a reasonable price or some sort of firmware upgrade capability for older models to add it is really unfortunate.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Gee, DCC handhelds aren't compatible with DCC systems! There are a ton of DCC makers, and I doubt many of the remotes work with competing systems.
Good point. It would be nice, though, to work together as a model railroading community to lower costs, increase commonality across the scales, and avoid a situation like we have with the Base 3 which is likely discouraging to newcomers to O gauge. Anyone still have an Atari computer, Betamax VCR, laser disk, floppy disk, or pager? I think proprietary, even if technologically superior, is generally bad.
I'd guess the number of Lionel customers who want DCC is extremely small. Given the fact that development budgets are not infinite , they have focused on those who have been buying their LionChief, TMCC and Legacy locomotives, hence the Base 3. I wouldn't rule out their eventual development of DCC compatibility in the future, but it will be market driven depending on demand. Right now, the demand is probably close to zero. And it's not clear that DCC operation on the same layout as TMCC/Legacy/LionChief locomotives is either easy or even feasible. The momentum of what they do is dictated by 120 years of product out there on people's layouts. DCC is not necessarily a good fit in that regard.
Lionel has had DCC compatibility since 2013. S gauge Legacy engines made beginning in 2013/2014 all operate on DCC. If more O gauge operators were interested in DCC control of their Legacy engines Lionel would likely invest more in the DCC compatible version of the Legacy system. For example we do not get Bluetooth or 4 digit addressing. There are many S gauge Legacy engine owners who run them with DCC. The Legacy engines run on the same track as engines with DCC decoders, same power supply, same controller.
This whole discussion reminds me of the VHS vs. Beta and Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD wars. The market ultimately decides what the standard would be.
@IC EC posted:Good point. It would be nice, though, to work together as a model railroading community to lower costs, increase commonality across the scales, and avoid a situation like we have with the Base 3 which is likely discouraging to newcomers to O gauge. Anyone still have an Atari computer, Betamax VCR, laser disk, floppy disk, or pager? I think proprietary, even if technologically superior, is generally bad.
I actually still have my original Atari video game console with games and…….wait for it…..my Mattel Intellivision video game console and games! And they both still work!
@Junior posted:I actually still have my original Atari video game console with games and…….wait for it…..my Mattel Intellivision video game console and games! And they both still work!
So does my awesome Sharp RP-117 turntable, but does anyone answer the support lines?
@IC EC posted:Anyone still have an Atari computer, Betamax VCR, laser disk, floppy disk, or pager? I think proprietary, even if technologically superior, is generally bad.
Lots of people have Apple computers... But I agree, bad! 
@AmFlyer posted:Lionel has had DCC compatibility since 2013. S gauge Legacy engines made beginning in 2013/2014 all operate on DCC. If more O gauge operators were interested in DCC control of their Legacy engines Lionel would likely invest more in the DCC compatible version of the Legacy system. For example we do not get Bluetooth or 4 digit addressing. There are many S gauge Legacy engine owners who run them with DCC. The Legacy engines run on the same track as engines with DCC decoders, same power supply, same controller.
MTH has had DCC in all their offerings for at least ten years, every PS/3 locomotive is fully DCC compatible. And now Atlas is offering DCC compatibility in their PS/3 offerings.
@IC EC posted:So does my awesome Sharp RP-117 turntable, but does anyone answer the support lines?
We can't get current manufacturers to answer their support lines nowadays, let along manufacturers from 30-50 years ago. I think you all will need to wait for the long delayed Lionel and MTH Command Control products to actually show up and be available for purchase. Then maybe some of our electronics gurus can get together and build their own remotes for them since the manufacturers seem to think everyone needs to use an app.
@IC EC posted:Good point. It would be nice, though, to work together as a model railroading community to lower costs, increase commonality across the scales, and avoid a situation like we have with the Base 3 which is likely discouraging to newcomers to O gauge. Anyone still have an Atari computer, Betamax VCR, laser disk, floppy disk, or pager? I think proprietary, even if technologically superior, is generally bad.
My laser disk still works great! When I can find a compatible TV....
@Darrell posted:My laser disk still works great! When I can find a compatible TV....
I still have a Z80 computer from the 1970's stored away that has dual 8" floppy disks. Last time I fired it up for grins, it still worked fine.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I still have a Z80 computer from the 1970's stored away that has dual 8" floppy disks. Last time I fired it up for grins, it still worked fine.
Back when they still built things to last longer instead of throw it away after a few years and have to buy new items because no parts available anymore even just when it's a few years old.🤬
)@MartyE posted:I would highly suggest watching this. A lot of questions are answered straight from the source.
Just finished watching the video….it was very informative and is definitely worthwhile watching.
I do have a question. I’m running Lionel’s CAB1L remote and Base1L (I skipped migrating to Lionel’s Cab2/Base2 because what I have works great. As a result I’m totally clueless regarding Cab 2/Base 2 capabilities and connect-abilities). It is connected to my DCS base via a serial cable. I run all my engines through DCS (yes….the thumb wheel sucks. But running Lionel and MTH engines together via a single remote is SO nice).
I’m considering migrating to Base 3. After watching @MartyE’s video I came to realize there is no port in the Base 3 to connect my DCS (I’m guessing that went away with Base 2?). If I want to run Lionel and MTH engines at the same time I will need to use two remotes or one remote and one cellphone app? Is that correct?
Without reading all 3+ pages, if I have Cab/Base 1L and less than say, 5 legacy engines, is a Cab 3 base worth it?
@Junior posted:I’m considering migrating to Base 3. After watching @MartyE’s video I came to realize there is no port in the Base 3 to connect my DCS (I’m guessing that went away with Base 2?). If I want to run Lionel and MTH engines at the same time I will need to use two remotes or one remote and one cellphone app? Is that correct?
NO- INCORRECT.
The BASE3 uses PDI LCS ports for serial data. So you buy the LCS SER2 module, and one PDI cable (modules don't come with cables). The SER2 module has the serial port for your TIU connection.
http://www.lionel.com/products...rter-2-ser2-6-81326/
This has been covered a few times and confirmed to be the way to use both together.
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@Junior posted:Just finished watching the video….it was very informative and is definitely worthwhile watching.
I do have a question. I’m running Lionel’s CAB1L remote and Base1L (I skipped migrating to Lionel’s Cab2/Base2 because what I have works great. As a result I’m totally clueless regarding Cab 2/Base 2 capabilities and connect-abilities). It is connected to my DCS base via a serial cable. I run all my engines through DCS (yes….the thumb wheel sucks. But running Lionel and MTH engines together via a single remote is SO nice).I’m considering migrating to Base 3. After watching @MartyE’s video I came to realize there is no port in the Base 3 to connect my DCS (I’m guessing that went away with Base 2?). If I want to run Lionel and MTH engines at the same time I will need to use two remotes or one remote and one cellphone app? Is that correct?
Vernon addressed this correctly. Dave also addresses this @ 1:08:10 of the video.
@Stinky1 posted:Without reading all 3+ pages, if I have Cab/Base 1L and less than say, 5 legacy engines, is a Cab 3 base worth it?
Probably not. If you are happy with what you have then I would stick with it. Once you add more Legacy and maybe LC and LC+ engines you may reconsider so you can run them under 1 remote.
@Stinky1 posted:Without reading all 3+ pages, if I have Cab/Base 1L and less than say, 5 legacy engines, is a Cab 3 base worth it?
So it depends. AFAIK you can't connect the LCS WiFi module to a Base-1L, so if you wanted to use your phone (which some people do) to control your trains, then a Base3 would allow you to do that.
The other things that I find as key features of the CAB-2 (over the CAB-1L) are:
- When controlling a locomotive in Legacy or TMCC mode, rotating the big red knob sends absolute speed commands which makes operating MU consists (lash-ups) much much more reliable.
- The train brake slider. Once you learn how to use this, it provides much more realistic operation of starting out a heavy train.
The Base3 along with the Cab3L app (or CAB-2) should also provide these features I'd imagine, but it hasn't been released yet so I can't say for sure.
@rplst8 posted:So it depends. AFAIK you can't connect the LCS WiFi module to a Base-1L, so if you wanted to use your phone (which some people do) to control your trains, then a Base3 would allow you to do that.
You can connect the LCS Wifi module to the Base-1L. Originally this was going to be my plan starting my own layout. The only reason I did not start out that way, a vendor messed up and shipped me the CAB-1 remote instead of the base, and then there was a sale on CAB2 990 sets and I just made that leap- but that was 2018.
Wifi module manual https://www.lionelsupport.com/...648781325250WiFi.pdf
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Thanks @MartyE, @Vernon Barry and @H1000 for clearly and concisely answering my question. Your help cleared the way for me to move to the next generation of CAB control.
I apologize if these questions have already been asked in various threads:
1. Is there a way to connect Cab 1 and base into the Base 3? I like using the Cab 1 when I am doing things like crawling under the layout and I don't want to bang up my Cab 2.
2. With the Base 3, is there a way to control conventional locomotives with a remote or smart device?
@Jeff2035 posted:I apologize if these questions have already been asked in various threads:
1. Is there a way to connect Cab 1 and base into the Base 3? I like using the Cab 1 when I am doing things like crawling under the layout and I don't want to bang up my Cab 2.
YES- just the same way as anything serial gets connected- a PDI cable and a SER2 module.
2. With the Base 3, is there a way to control conventional locomotives with a remote or smart device?
Base 3 in and of itself is just like all previous bases- just that, command control radio signal over 455KHz. So just by itself, NO.
To control track power- you need a track power control device like a Legacy Powermaster. Another possible option is a ZW-L since it also accepts Legacy commands from a base.
Thank you Vernon.
I am good to go and will order a Base 3.
If we learn nothing else in this topic:
A whole bunch of people buying Base3 (sometimes referred to also as CAB3) may find that many installs are going to require at least one PDI cable and SER2 module.
http://www.lionel.com/products...rter-2-ser2-6-81326/
Again, most installs in some way used or might need to use the previous serial port- or maybe you are connecting your old system (original TMCC base), or one of a dozen other reasons are going to need a serial port.
When Base3 ships- who wants to take that bet that any existing supply of SER2 modules- unless Lionel also predicted this( @Dave Olson ???) , could get back to "market" price higher than MSRP because of supply and demand?
And you thought only Legacy CAB2 sets and Base-1L went sky high prices.
Again, Christmas stocking stuffer idea- a SER2 and matching PDI cable.........
No, I don't sell them nor have a pile of them.
I just bought myself one spare before typing this.
I’ve been buying LCS components for the future receipt of the Base3 at York shows. You tend to find them cheap at the shows. I have 2 of the SER2 that were less than $30. Plan is to use one for the DCS and a second in case I figure out how to integrate my TPC400.
@MartyE posted:Again I have yet to meet a memory module that transfers a database. Yes you can get all the "Orange Module" information via a black Multi Engine module but at least as the modules and LSU stand today they cannot transfer engine IDs (associated with the engine data), switch, train, accessories and other database information. I would hope however you could use LSU to import your current Legacy database that does contain all that information.
The way they phrased it, I suspect they will include a NEW module with enough memory capable of storing an entire database.
@Calebro posted:The way they phrased it, I suspect they will include a NEW module with enough memory capable of storing an entire database.
After talking to Dave the database for Legacy is able to be put on a black module. Not 100% sure of the procedure but it can be done.
@Gary P posted:Back when they still built things to last longer instead of throw it away after a few years and have to buy new items because no parts available anymore even just when it's a few years old.🤬
I disagree.
They aren't built any differently today then they were back then (in the late 1970's, for John's Z80, for example, and my TRS-80 Model III from Radio Shack which has had a similar longevity). The throw-away mentality started before that, in the 60's.
However, a very recent oddity that affects our perception of this situation is the sudden retreat of many component manufacturers who've walked away from years (or even decades) of prior business because it's "no longer profitable".
No one back in the day could have predicted this. Back then, and up until two years ago, it was all good business.
Mike
@Vernon Barry posted:When Base3 ships- who wants to take that bet that any existing supply of SER2 modules- unless Lionel also predicted this( @Dave Olson ???) , could get back to "market" price higher than MSRP because of supply and demand?And you thought only Legacy CAB2 sets and Base-1L went sky high prices.
Again, Christmas stocking stuffer idea- a SER2 and matching PDI cable.........
I just did a scan, tons of people have them in stock, so there are probably quite a few in the supply chain.
@MartyE posted:Vernon addressed this correctly. Dave also addresses this @ 1:08:10 of the video.
I watched the video again; fast forwarding to the spot you documented and have no idea how I missed this!
I need to stop watching videos 10:30 at night!
Hey @MartyE….
Quick question….are there special cables needed to connect the Base 3 to the LCS Ser 2 to the MTH TIU?
If so, would you be able to list which cables I need to purchase to make these connections?
@Junior posted:Hey @MartyE….
Quick question….are there special cables needed to connect the Base 3 to the LCS Ser 2 to the MTH TIU?
If so, would you be able to list which cables I need to purchase to make these connections?
You will need one of the following PDI cables depending on how far Base3 is from the SER2.
1' 6-81500, 3' 6-81501, 10' 6-81502, 20' 6-81503.
This will connect the SER2 to the Base3.
On the serial port of the SER2 you will need MTH DCS to Legacy Cable 50-1032 to connect to the TIU.
Thanks @MartyE...
My TIU is already connected to mr CAB1L; so I have that cable.
Does the Ser2 need any kind of power supply? If so, is that a special cable also?
@Junior posted:Thanks @MartyE...
My TIU is already connected to mr CAB1L; so I have that cable.
Does the Ser2 need any kind of power supply? If so, is that a special cable also?
The BASE3 will supply the power that normally came from the LCS power supply package, so you don't need anything extra in that regard.
Awesome! Thanks GRJ! 👍
I hear the base 3 is coming in April.
@Peter Gulotta posted:I hear the base 3 is coming in April.
2024 or 2025??
2024
