I am an avid fan of remote control for running my Legacy and DCS locomotives and I'll never use an app on an iPhone or iPad. There are so many reasons why using a remote is preferred that I will not bore everyone here with me personal list. The proof in the pudding is the prices for remote systems in the secondary market. Given that the prices reflect scarcity and demand, using remotes seems to be very popular. There is no reason for me to buy a Base 3 without an updated remote control.
@MartyE posted:I would hope there is a way to transfer the entire database. If not, for a smaller layout it probably won't be a big deal but for a large layout with a lot of TR (trains), Accessories, and Switches it could be a pain although 1 time. I suspect that LSU may get upgraded with a possible path to at least importing that existing Legacy (Base 2) information. Dave can tell us for sure.
I'm confused, why would you think there would be a problem moving the BASE2 roster to the BASE3, it seems they clearly stated that was possible! See highlighted bullet point.
Attachments
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I'm confused, why would you think there would be a problem moving the BASE2 roster to the BASE3, it seems they clearly stated that was possible! See highlighted bullet point.
Again I have yet to meet a memory module that transfers a database. Yes you can get all the "Orange Module" information via a black Multi Engine module but at least as the modules and LSU stand today they cannot transfer engine IDs (associated with the engine data), switch, train, accessories and other database information. I would hope however you could use LSU to import your current Legacy database that does contain all that information.
@MartyE posted:Last I checked, the Black Module doesn't hold the ID for any engines, Train Build information, Switch and Accessory information. Sure you can create a Multi-Engine Module that contains the Names, Road Number and personality of the engines but without the database, there is no association with and ID.
I would hope there is a way to transfer the entire database. If not, for a smaller layout it probably won't be a big deal but for a large layout with a lot of TR (trains), Accessories, and Switches it could be a pain although 1 time. I suspect that LSU may get upgraded with a possible path to at least importing that existing Legacy (Base 2) information. Dave can tell us for sure.
Agree MARTY. I have been thinking of if there is a way to plug the Cab2 base or handheld into the Cab3 and do all the transfers from there? I am wondering if DAVE and his crew pondered this. Probably but it would be nice to know. I guess in time….
@laz1957 posted:Agree MARTY. I have been thinking of if there is a way to plug the Cab2 base or handheld into the Cab3 and do all the transfers from there? I am wondering if DAVE and his crew pondered this. Probably but it would be nice to know. I guess in time….
I would say if there is a way, which I suspect there is, it will be done via the LSU program. Right now we can already back up the Legacy base to a file on our PC so I think this would be the most logical way, via the LSU program. Whether they come up with an alternate would be a question for Dave.
BTW I have made several multi engine modules. It's a great feature. Even engines that don't have a factory module, once in the Legacy base are able to have their "personality" reside on the Black Module.
"using remotes seems to be very popular"
Indeed. Nobody wants to use their phone in HO to control their trains. So many remotes to choose from in HO and they still keep coming. You don't see the got to appeal to kids with phones for the hobby's future routine in HO.
- Crank
@Eccentric Crank posted:"using remotes seems to be very popular"
Indeed. Nobody wants to use their phone in HO to control their trains. So many remotes to choose from in HO and they still keep coming. You don't see the got to appeal to kids with phones for the hobby's future routine in HO.
- Crank
Yep........I've always thought that was a lame excuse. If they stop producing a designated remote, I am far less likely to buy any new train product; instead, I'll convert / upgrade the locos I have and be just as happy. Time in my train room is my escape from the phone / tablet.
@Eccentric Crank posted:"using remotes seems to be very popular"
Indeed. Nobody wants to use their phone in HO to control their trains. So many remotes to choose from in HO and they still keep coming. You don't see the got to appeal to kids with phones for the hobby's future routine in HO.
- Crank
Crank,
I hear ya, but ..
I don't think you can successfully speak for everyone. "Nobody" isn't the correct word, either in 'O' or in 'HO', or any other scale
Some people want to use their phone. Some people are ok with it, even if not totally satisfied.
Then there are the rest of us.
If you're trying, with the statements in your post, to convince the phone folks that using a phone is a doomed folly then you're going to fail.
How do I know this? They're trying just as hard to get us to abandon our handhelds. Tug of war. No one wins.
Neither approach is right here.
We need to drop the emotional appeals on both sides and we'll all be better off in the long run.
Mike
@MartyE posted:The CAB2 is over 15 years old roughly. No one could have anticipated all of the possible scenarios that would change in the last 15 years especially with a hardware based remote. Lionel has kept the Cab2 relevant by having it still operate as it does now with Base3. Any new features that Base3 is delivered with and any new functions and features Lionel may add can easily be added to an App and most likely with some customized controls. Maybe that is what you were saying?
My illiteracy of the technology belies my fondness of running trains.
I just want to run them without having my head spin.
I believe there's a point when too much technology hinders the enjoyment.
@Walter Anderson posted:My illiteracy of the technology belies my fondness of running trains.
I just want to run them without having my head spin.
I believe there's a point when too much technology hinders the enjoyment.
Agreed, Walter; it can be overwhelming, and if we spend less time running trains and more time tinkering with the system that controls them, what's the point? The thing I enjoy most about command control is the freedom to walk away from the transformer and run trains from anywhere in the room. I use the speed control, horn/whistle buttons, smoke and coupler controls, but that is about it. Maybe someday I'll use more of the features, but I doubt it.
@Walter Anderson posted:My illiteracy of the technology belies my fondness of running trains.
I just want to run them without having my head spin.
I believe there's a point when too much technology hinders the enjoyment.
Walter,
With your statements it appears that you're taking issue with everyone who's posted in this thread, one way or the other. This is so because the Base 3, and all command control before it, seems to be overkill for the hobby. Unfortunately we're interested in it and its future.
I highly respect your position and the care with which you chosen these words, but the answer for you is quite simple.
Just ignore it. With a few simple exceptions everything made over the years with command control in it also runs in conventional mode. You get to use your transformer just as you always have.
Don't let it bug you. Just realize that there has to be room for new things, as there has been for over 120 years. Command control has been here for almost 30 of those years. It's not new, but it once was.
In the end this situation is no different. When things get overwhelming remember to run the trains as you see fit, not as others might imply or suggest. The trains, your trains, are the important thing here and not what everyone else may be chattering about.
Mike
@Walter Anderson posted:My illiteracy of the technology belies my fondness of running trains.
I just want to run them without having my head spin.
I believe there's a point when too much technology hinders the enjoyment.
I'm with you on this. That said, there are many for whom the technology and operating it and tinkering with it are part of the enjoyment. I think it depends in part on how much time (plus interest and patience) one has to devote to understanding the ins and outs of the technology. I'm not there. I love command control, but have too many other demands on my time to spend a lot of it delving into the intricacies of all the electronics and gizmos. To me, even the Cab 2 has a learning curve that's fairly steep given the time I have to devote to it. Even if you learn how to do a certain thing, remembering that same procedure later is another question. The Cab 1L works for me. Judging from Santa Fe Fan's remarks, it appears those of us who prefer it are in good company! 
Landsteiner,
Just saw your thread referring to finding the comment from the previous CTO of Lionel.
His call sign is SantaFeFan and he is the 24th response for this thread.
There were so many good responses to this thread I wish I had time to comment and/or reply on all of them. I was impressed with everyone's responses.
I am sure the Base 3 will make it at some point although wish someone at Lionel would reply as an example the two Dave's from the Dave and Dave show as have not heard anything from those guys in a while and then there was the Martye guy who used to coordinate the Lionel LUG meetings way back when although have not seen anything from him lately?
Obviously, the BASE 3 is a step in the right direction and hopefully down the line we will see a new handheld? There was a reply that someone commented around trying to get the new generation of kids into trains and I am afraid that is a tough one and for many reasons.
If we go back to a comment around all the expensive and sophisticated locomotives Lionel is putting out as the only folks that usually buy them are us old and retired folks with those that have the money to spend on them.
Of course there are other folks not retired who also can afford to do the same and it seems that somewhere along the line within Lionel they will recognize that. I am probably opening up a big can of worms here and I mean no disrespect.
Also, at the right age kids do pick up the control systems pretty fast if the interest is there and they have access to a layout? Game systems have been at the top for many years and will probably continue to do so?
Way to much technology out there that kids have access to and each kid is different.
Larry B.
Looks like I put my reply into the wrong thread as I thought I was putting it into "Lionel Products" and instead it got into Lionel Base 3.
Looks like I got my response into the right place and I see the Martye responses which is good as he has a lot of knowledge and experience in Lionel control systems.
Any estimates on the cost🤯🤯🤯of a new handheld?
@Walter Anderson posted:Any estimates on the cost🤯🤯🤯of a new handheld?
About $1,000,000 I guess, since there isn't one planned!
On the good news front, they're continuing production of the CAB1L, so there is a decent physical remote for more basic operations at least.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:About $1,000,000 I guess, since there isn't one planned!
Ha, only a cool million.......lol 😂
Chump change these days.
How ya doin John? Well I hope😉
Does anyone have an update on when the Lionel Base 3, Lionel part number L-2208010 will be available for purchase from any dealer in the US?
In a recent video from Dave, should be shipping from overseas in February, hitting dealers for you to purchase by April.
@MI-Marc posted:Does anyone have an update on when the Lionel Base 3, Lionel part number L-2208010 will be available for purchase from any dealer in the US?
I would highly suggest watching this. A lot of questions are answered straight from the source.
If development costs are an issue, then both Lionel and MTH should have adopted DCC rather than developing (mostly) proprietary systems of their own.
@MartyE posted:I would highly suggest watching this. A lot of questions are answered straight from the source.
Marty,
Great to put a face to a name. Thanks for getting this information for everyone.
@IC EC posted:If development costs are an issue, then both Lionel and MTH should have adopted DCC rather than developing (mostly) proprietary systems of their own.
I'm not sure about MTH, but Lionel has had their skin in the game for awhile, TMCC since 94' and legacy since 2006. Dave said in a video that the base3 has been in works long before base2 was going to be discontinued.
"If development costs are an issue, then both Lionel and MTH should have adopted DCC rather than developing (mostly) proprietary systems of their own."
At the time Lionel's TMCC was developed there were no DCC components that could be used for three rail O gauge and no digital sound systems available at all. So TMCC and Railsounds were answers to questions that DCC could not answer for many years afterward. Claims to the contrary are ignoring historical realities of the 1990s.
@Jerryc86 posted:I'm not sure about MTH, but Lionel has had their skin in the game for awhile, TMCC since 94' and legacy since 2006. Dave said in a video that the base3 has been in works long before base2 was going to be discontinued.
I'm pretty sure that Lionel expected to have the BASE3 several years ago, it just didn't happen for a variety of reasons.
@Jerryc86 posted:Marty,
Great to put a face to a name. Thanks for getting this information for everyone.
Thanks Jerry.
I think Dave has given us some great information and he really wants it in our hands but he also wants it to be right. I suspect along with the discussed hardware delays getting the App just right is a priority.
@Landsteiner posted:"If development costs are an issue, then both Lionel and MTH should have adopted DCC rather than developing (mostly) proprietary systems of their own."
At the time Lionel's TMCC was developed there were no DCC components that could be used for three rail O gauge and no digital sound systems available at all. So TMCC and Railsounds were answers to questions that DCC could not answer for many years afterward. Claims to the contrary are ignoring historical realities of the 1990s.
That is true and I really like both my Lionel Legacy and MTH DCS systems. Both systems have greatly improved model train operation, capability, realism, and sounds. However, if Lionel and MTH had, from the beginning, built upon a system used by the much larger HO community, we might not be in the current predicament with the lack of Lionel/MTH control systems and lack of handheld remotes. If only the Base 3 was compatible with DCC handhelds....
@IC EC posted:If only the Base 3 was compatible with DCC handhelds....
Gee, DCC handhelds aren't compatible with DCC systems! There are a ton of DCC makers, and I doubt many of the remotes work with competing systems.
@IC EC posted:That is true and I really like both my Lionel Legacy and MTH DCS systems. Both systems have greatly improved model train operation, capability, realism, and sounds. However, if Lionel and MTH had, from the beginning, built upon a system used by the much larger HO community, we might not be in the current predicament with the lack of Lionel/MTH control systems and lack of handheld remotes. If only the Base 3 was compatible with DCC handhelds....
If we're being fair about this, no one could have predicted the success of TMCC (especially in light of the fact that DCC was being developed around the same time) and it was fairly new technology. So I don't fault any of the manufacturers for not incorporating it into their locomotives. What I do fault them for, is not incorporating DCC support in their locomotive electronics. MTH rectified this when they released ProtoSound 3.0 and Lionel has at least demonstrated compatibility with it in the S-scale offerings.
Lack of full DCC support by the manufactures on new locos today is inexcusable at this point, and not providing drop in board replacements at a reasonable price or some sort of firmware upgrade capability for older models to add it is really unfortunate.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Gee, DCC handhelds aren't compatible with DCC systems! There are a ton of DCC makers, and I doubt many of the remotes work with competing systems.
Good point. It would be nice, though, to work together as a model railroading community to lower costs, increase commonality across the scales, and avoid a situation like we have with the Base 3 which is likely discouraging to newcomers to O gauge. Anyone still have an Atari computer, Betamax VCR, laser disk, floppy disk, or pager? I think proprietary, even if technologically superior, is generally bad.
I'd guess the number of Lionel customers who want DCC is extremely small. Given the fact that development budgets are not infinite 
, they have focused on those who have been buying their LionChief, TMCC and Legacy locomotives, hence the Base 3. I wouldn't rule out their eventual development of DCC compatibility in the future, but it will be market driven depending on demand. Right now, the demand is probably close to zero. And it's not clear that DCC operation on the same layout as TMCC/Legacy/LionChief locomotives is either easy or even feasible. The momentum of what they do is dictated by 120 years of product out there on people's layouts. DCC is not necessarily a good fit in that regard.
Lionel has had DCC compatibility since 2013. S gauge Legacy engines made beginning in 2013/2014 all operate on DCC. If more O gauge operators were interested in DCC control of their Legacy engines Lionel would likely invest more in the DCC compatible version of the Legacy system. For example we do not get Bluetooth or 4 digit addressing. There are many S gauge Legacy engine owners who run them with DCC. The Legacy engines run on the same track as engines with DCC decoders, same power supply, same controller.
This whole discussion reminds me of the VHS vs. Beta and Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD wars. The market ultimately decides what the standard would be.
@IC EC posted:Good point. It would be nice, though, to work together as a model railroading community to lower costs, increase commonality across the scales, and avoid a situation like we have with the Base 3 which is likely discouraging to newcomers to O gauge. Anyone still have an Atari computer, Betamax VCR, laser disk, floppy disk, or pager? I think proprietary, even if technologically superior, is generally bad.
I actually still have my original Atari video game console with games and…….wait for it…..my Mattel Intellivision video game console and games! And they both still work!
@Junior posted:I actually still have my original Atari video game console with games and…….wait for it…..my Mattel Intellivision video game console and games! And they both still work!
So does my awesome Sharp RP-117 turntable, but does anyone answer the support lines?
@IC EC posted:Anyone still have an Atari computer, Betamax VCR, laser disk, floppy disk, or pager? I think proprietary, even if technologically superior, is generally bad.
Lots of people have Apple computers... But I agree, bad! 
@AmFlyer posted:Lionel has had DCC compatibility since 2013. S gauge Legacy engines made beginning in 2013/2014 all operate on DCC. If more O gauge operators were interested in DCC control of their Legacy engines Lionel would likely invest more in the DCC compatible version of the Legacy system. For example we do not get Bluetooth or 4 digit addressing. There are many S gauge Legacy engine owners who run them with DCC. The Legacy engines run on the same track as engines with DCC decoders, same power supply, same controller.
MTH has had DCC in all their offerings for at least ten years, every PS/3 locomotive is fully DCC compatible. And now Atlas is offering DCC compatibility in their PS/3 offerings.
@IC EC posted:So does my awesome Sharp RP-117 turntable, but does anyone answer the support lines?
We can't get current manufacturers to answer their support lines nowadays, let along manufacturers from 30-50 years ago. I think you all will need to wait for the long delayed Lionel and MTH Command Control products to actually show up and be available for purchase. Then maybe some of our electronics gurus can get together and build their own remotes for them since the manufacturers seem to think everyone needs to use an app.
@IC EC posted:Good point. It would be nice, though, to work together as a model railroading community to lower costs, increase commonality across the scales, and avoid a situation like we have with the Base 3 which is likely discouraging to newcomers to O gauge. Anyone still have an Atari computer, Betamax VCR, laser disk, floppy disk, or pager? I think proprietary, even if technologically superior, is generally bad.
My laser disk still works great! When I can find a compatible TV....
