Weaver cars and trucks are the biggest pieces of crap in o gauge. It ridiculous that Lionel would do anything to match them
Matt Makens posted:Weaver cars and trucks are the biggest pieces of crap in o gauge. It ridiculous that Lionel would do anything to match them
Thats your opinion Matt, I try to run only Weaver rolling stock on Weaver Delrin trucks and wheels. For me they work the best especially the Delrin wheels. Roll great and the wheels stay clean, also really quiet. I use Kadee couplers.
Clem
Matt Makens posted:Weaver cars and trucks are the biggest pieces of crap in o gauge. It ridiculous that Lionel would do anything to match them
Gotta disagree here... Weaver Delrin trucks and wheels very reliable and quiet on my 2 rail layout..and in the event of a derail they don't short out.
willygee posted:Matt Makens posted:Weaver cars and trucks are the biggest pieces of crap in o gauge. It ridiculous that Lionel would do anything to match them
Gotta disagree here... Weaver Delrin trucks and wheels very reliable and quiet on my 2 rail layout..and in the event of a derail they don't short out.
On the other hand, I prefer the Weaver die cast 3-Rail Bettendorf trucks, as well as the Weaver die cast 2-Rail Bettendorf trucks.
Matt Makens posted:Weaver cars and trucks are the biggest pieces of crap in o gauge. It ridiculous that Lionel would do anything to match them
Weaver cars filled a long-ignored niche and evolved from kit form to ready-to-run. If you weight them to NMRA standards, they track very well, even with the plastic wheels. I still pick them up on eBay, add weights and install Intermountain wheels and Kadee couplers and they're fine. The early cars were a bit delicate because they had scale-sized stirrups but properly-weighted cars track well in a train with brands from other manufacturers.
As to Lionel going back to thumbtacks, it makes the trucks lighter and MUCH easier to work with if you want to switch over to Kadees. I wish I had checked the Lionel Catalog as I would have ordered 2-rail wheelsets to go with my 65-foot mill gondalas (which were very well done).
Nope, junk!!! Especially plastic wheels
"Lionel has lost a ton of sales by going backwards."
Seriously? Scale modelers are a small part of the three rail market, in dollar sales in all likelihood. Even if Weaver's former customers never bought a Lionel product, Weaver was likely <1% of the three rail market.
The bulk of three rail sales, dollarwise, are almost certainly still Lionel sets in dollar volume, and I'd guess MTH RailKing and Lionel LionChief+ are far in excess of dollar sales of true scale equipment.
SIRT posted:
Topic has been discussed already ...
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...74#74777184326320074
Lionel has lost a ton of sales by going backwards.
I assume you have the financials to back up that statement. While I personally dislike the couplers I wouldn't even know if they lost sales over them.
Death to the lobster claw. Convert to kadee and be much happier.
Matt Makens posted:Weaver cars and trucks are the biggest pieces of crap in o gauge. It ridiculous that Lionel would do anything to match them
Ouch.
Couldn't disagree more.
That Weaver's die cast trucks alone are so hard to find since their demise speaks for itself.....as an example. I'll try the Lionel 'improved' version, for sure,...but not preferentially.
I have nothing but total respect for Weaver's contribution to the hobby. But why insult Lionel's judgment in salvaging/improving Weaver's efforts?? "Ridiculous"?....."arousing or deserving ridicule :extremely silly or unreasonable"?....double ouch.
Don't beat around the bush, Matt......tell us how you really feel!
Weaver....R.I.P.
Lionel...Steady as she goes.
KD
Originally posted by Matt Makens:
Weaver cars and trucks are the biggest pieces of crap in o gauge. It ridiculous that Lionel would do
anything to match them
MTH Authorized Service Tech
President Chief Operations Officer, The Lenny Lines
Boy are you so narrow minded.
I have yet to hear hobbyists and scale modelers complain of these:
If it wasn't for Weaver models, we wouldn't have any unique models that others didn't want to attempt to bring to market.
But that's ok Matt, more for us and less for you!
NOT like Lenny and his "Circle L Boyz were near perfect with their offerings, 
including some items as of yesterday!
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I picked up my Lionel 65 foot mill gon this week good job on the mill gon, I bought it because I like the looks of it and also it has the new trucks. Well the weaver trucks are NOT a drop in replacement. When you convert a Weaver car to Kadee or 2 rail, one screw, take the truck off remove the coupler and reinstall with same screw. Matches the Kadee gage perfect. Lionel take the truck off, unscrew the coupler, reinstall the truck. The car still rides to high to the Kadee gage. the car is to high! Thus the supplied spacer to get the Kadee to right height. (But the car is still to high). And 2 rail trucks like Weaver, Athern, trucks will not fit because the mount (bolster ?) on the car is to low. You have to use the Lionel truck. I wonder if the X Weaver cars, now Lionel have this problem ?
Weaver when I bought, less than $30.00 use any 2 rail truck, correct ride height, no coupler shims needed. 
Lionel when Bought, over $70.00 no choice in trucks, wrong ride height
Again Lionel why did you not use the excellent Weaver trucks and mounting ? 
Its not just Lionel, MTH and Atlas also do this. 
Ok I think I did my criticism for a year or two.
Back to running trains and having fun.
superwarp1 posted:Death to the lobster claw. Convert to kadee and be much happier.
If you could get them to work on 031, 042 and 036 then I would agree. All my HO are Kadee equipped but the ogauge lobster claw are fine for me except for the new designed thumb tack.
Rod Miller
superwarp1 posted:Death to the lobster claw.
I'll warm some butter! 
I'm good with most claws, but that came out very funny 
Every Weaver set of trucks I've had (from swap outs ), the tack was clipped off to stop shorting; too low. I know you two railers kinda need them, but I dont like plastic wheels and weighting to keep them from climbing, and they seem to make track dirty faster. More static? Imagination? Doesn't matter, just not my choice.
The cars and locos had great detail, and are more delicate because of it.
The metal trucks are sturdy, but have issues too."just like Lionels; only different". Every plastic truck I had has broken; 5. Five total because the guy broke #6 from three cars he had, and was already weary of them. Wouldnt let me pay for them either, "junk" he said. I have to agree now.
I just picked up a new Lionel caboose and that thing was sporting high heels right out of the box. The new trucks are cheaper, that's all. They are high riders just like everything else they make. I think Lionel might have outdone themselves though and these new trucks ride to new heights. Sky's the limit. If you want to use their Kadee mounts you'll still have to break out your angle grinder and blowtorch:
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...re-marquette-caboose
Weaver was awesome, really wish they could have stuck around.
Mike Reagan, question, how many dollars do the trucks add to the purchase price of the car? I'm sure we could save a lot of time money if the cars were sold without trucks and just purchase what we favor separately. Lionel would also save in production time (more cars out the door in a day) and labor cost, which would lower the price of the car even further for the consumer. Right now we're destroying a truck and coupler that we not only paid for, but also paid for it to be installed over sea's. I feel this would be a win win business decision for both the consumer and Lionel.
romiller49 posted:superwarp1 posted:Death to the lobster claw. Convert to kadee and be much happier.
If you could get them to work on 031, 042 and 036 then I would agree. All my HO are Kadee equipped but the ogauge lobster claw are fine for me except for the new designed thumb tack.
Rod Miller
I have no issues running on 042. If you are doing anything tighter than that you are not running scale cars. Going Kadee should be for scale cars only.
People should be asking a different question. Are the new trucks better or worse than MTH or AtlasO? I just picked up a AtlasO Trainman Rutland car after years of not buying any Atlas rolling stock and the truck design is total junk. I don't know if Atlas is using a cheaper design than their master line but the the trainman truck is absolute junk. One of the trucks can't even pull a few cars without opening and the cross member pieces is thin and easily bent. Good thing I convert to Kadee, or that car would be useless.
It will be interesting to see what the new Milk cars will have in a month or two?? I haven't gotten to converting my inventory of milk cars to Kadee yet as that older truck design was the best Lionel has ever done. Not the easiest to dismantle to add a scale couplers but for those who like the lobster claw, bullet proof.
" I'm sure we could save a lot of time money if the cars were sold without trucks and just purchase what we favor separately. "
I'm not Mike, but....It sounds good, but from a inventory logistics and cost standpoint, it's a non-starter for Lionel. The vast majority of purchasers would not want to have to purchase trucks separately. The small minority who want Kadee couplers or some other variation are just going to have to go to the trouble and expense of modifying the rolling stock.
Dave Zucal posted:Mike Reagan, question, how many dollars do the trucks add to the purchase price of the car? I
Since Mr. Reagan no longer works for Lionel, and hasn't for quite some time, you really don't expect him to answer, do you?
I think we've beat this to death. I'm not converting to kadee so for my money I'll buy what I like.
Rod Miller
Hot Water posted:Dave Zucal posted:Mike Reagan, question, how many dollars do the trucks add to the purchase price of the car? I
Since Mr. Reagan no longer works for Lionel, and hasn't for quite some time, you really don't expect him to answer, do you?
He would still know the general information to make a pretty accurate estimate in answer to Dave's question, dontchya think?
RadioRon posted:Hot Water posted:Dave Zucal posted:Mike Reagan, question, how many dollars do the trucks add to the purchase price of the car? I
Since Mr. Reagan no longer works for Lionel, and hasn't for quite some time, you really don't expect him to answer, do you?
He would still know the general information to make a pretty accurate estimate in answer to Dave's question, dontchya think?
Absolutely he does!!!! But, again, do you REALLY expect him to respond,,,,,,,,,at all?????
Lets wait and see.
I just got my 2017 50' double door ATSF express box car and it has the plastic non-sprung trucks with thumb tack decoupler also and yes it a steps backwards in looks and quality to my PS-1 boxcars. The PS-1 trucks make the whole car feel more substantial, while the new 50' car almost feels too light with the plastic framed trucks.
I keep all my Lionel collection box stock so the upgrade ability is not for me.
SuperChiefer84 posted:I just got my 2017 50' double door ATSF express box car and it has the plastic non-sprung trucks with thumb tack decoupler also and yes it a steps backwards in looks and quality to my PS-1 boxcars. The PS-1 trucks make the whole car feel more substantial, while the new 50' car almost feels too light with the plastic framed trucks.
I keep all my Lionel collection box stock so the upgrade ability is not for me.
Is this a scale car you are referring to? This past Saturday, I checked out some of those Lionel "grain door" SCALE boxcars, and they had the "new" truck with the "thumb tack", and aside from the "thumb tack" the trucks them selves did have EXCELLENT detail with REAL springs. As a 3RS modeler, I would have had no problems removing the "claw", grinding off the top of the truck bolster in order to lower the car, and installing Kadee body mounted couplers. In my opinion; NICE JOB Lionel!
The title of this thread was spot on. Lionel clearly has clearly taken a major step backwards with their incredibly short-sighted and downright stupid decision to replace their die-case metal sprung trucks and operating couplers containing hidden uncoupling tabs, which has been the Lionel standard for many years, with the new trucks containing the gross couplers with the large and UGLY thumb tacks. Despite the various explanations I have heard or seen in this thread, I strongly suspect that the real reason Lionel made this decision was to downgrade to cheaper couplers, but to charge the same for them and the freight and passenger cars that have them to increase profits. I was really shocked to see these couplers in person on the Scale PS-1s and other Scale freight cars at the York Show. They look absolutely horrific close up, and even worse on the passenger cars.
If Lionel wanted to use these couplers on the LionScale cars, so be it, but why make the change on their Scale cars? The overwhelming majority of the buyers of Lionel Trains, probably 90-95%, are three rail collectors and operators who never change the couplers, and were highly satisfied with the former trucks and couplers. And yet, according to Ryan Kunkle, Lionel supposedly made this decision to make it easier to change the couplers for the small minority of Lionel buyers who want to convert the couplers to Kadee for 2-rail operation. Even if that were the case, or even a component part of the rationale for the decision, why would Lionel make a decision that disenfranchises the vast majority of its customer base to satisfy the small minority. Ryan candidly admitted that Lionel made this decision without conducting any surveys among its customers. Worse, he indicated that Lionel will no longer manufacture any more of the former high quality trucks and couplers, so replacement of these gross new couplers will be difficult, as the stock will quickly be depleted.
I had an interesting discussion with the owner of one of Lionel's major distributors concerning this issue. He agreed that Lionel's decision was a really bad one. When I asked him why Lionel made it, he had a very simple explanation - "They're not train guys."
Hopefully, Lionel will come to its senses and reverse this horrific decision, or alternatively offer two versions of its Scale cars, one with the former trucks and couplers and the other with the inferior new ones. However, if the decision stands, as someone who has purchased hundreds of Lionel freight cars over the years, including all of the PS-1s they have produced up to now, I will have to settle for filling out my collection with old stock and buying MTH and Atlas freight cars. One thing is for sure. I will never purchase any Lionel cars with the gross new trucks and couplers or spend additional dollars to change them out for the former trucks and couplers, assuming they are even available.
D&H 65 - spot on!
To say they are not train guys is not the case. I’m pretty sure a former Lionel product specialist was involved here.
Perhaps not, but that was the opinion of one of Lionel's largest distributors who has been in the business many years. He should know.
This is a bad move by Lionel. I would be upset to pay all the money for the new Lionel gondola’s, open the box and find out it’s got the goofy old thumbtack couplers on it.
A big step backwards.
Hot Water posted:SuperChiefer84 posted:I just got my 2017 50' double door ATSF express box car and it has the plastic non-sprung trucks with thumb tack decoupler also and yes it a steps backwards in looks and quality to my PS-1 boxcars. The PS-1 trucks make the whole car feel more substantial, while the new 50' car almost feels too light with the plastic framed trucks.
I keep all my Lionel collection box stock so the upgrade ability is not for me.
Is this a scale car you are referring to? This past Saturday, I checked out some of those Lionel "grain door" SCALE boxcars, and they had the "new" truck with the "thumb tack", and aside from the "thumb tack" the trucks them selves did have EXCELLENT detail with REAL springs. As a 3RS modeler, I would have had no problems removing the "claw", grinding off the top of the truck bolster in order to lower the car, and installing Kadee body mounted couplers. In my opinion; NICE JOB Lionel!
Ditto
To say they are not train guys is not the case. I’m pretty sure a former Lionel product specialist was involved here.
Isn't "former" a key word here?
Matt Makens posted:Weaver cars and trucks are the biggest pieces of crap in o gauge. It ridiculous that Lionel would do anything to match them
I have a bunch of Weaver plastic trucks that I've set up with Intermountain metal wheels. They've been fine on the club layout. They track well across uneven track because they're equalized (which works better than sprung). The only problem I've had is if I dropped one onto a hard surface, breaking it. I don't like the three-rail coupler implementation, though, as it raises the car height (necessary to clear the three-rail flanges).
C W Burfle posted:To say they are not train guys is not the case. I’m pretty sure a former Lionel product specialist was involved here.
Isn't "former" a key word here?
How so?
How so?
Doesn't "former" mean that the person doesn't currently work at Lionel?
Make good use of the "Block Feature".
Feel free to block me.
I don't block people, I usually am interested in reading what others have to say, even when I don't agree with them.
C W Burfle posted:How so?
Doesn't "former" mean that the person doesn't currently work at Lionel?
Make good use of the "Block Feature".
Feel free to block me.
I don't block people, I usually am interested in reading what others have to say, even when I don't agree with them.
CW... Just curious how that matters to the coupler subject. Mike was there when the coupler change was made and even posted as to why the change was made. Not sure that he is a former employee is relevant.
LOL! The "Block" statement is in my signature was a joke so you won't be blocked. I rarely use it but recently had to. I always find your posts to be thoughtful and respectful.
CW... Just curious how that matters to the coupler subject. Mike was there when the coupler change was made and even posted as to why the change was made. Not sure that he is a former employee is relevant.
LOL! The "Block" statement is in my signature was a joke so you won't be blocked. I rarely use it but recently had to. I always find your posts to be thoughtful and respectful.
You got me there. If Mike was there when the coupler change was made, then I will agree that its unfair to say that they didn't have enthusiasts in key positions.
Thank you for the complement on my posts.
I don't see how this decision (which I find unattractive, but not a deal breaker) can be the result of Lionel having no train guys. The decision was made to help those who want more prototypical couplers and trucks modify the product.
The notion that there are no train guys at Lionel is a bald faced lie that has never been true or is a product of ignorance. At all times in the last 20-25 years there have been train guys and hobbyists at Lionel. I don't believe the CEOs at other companies have layouts at home. I don't believe the current Lionel CEO has a personal layout. Neither did Jerry Calabrese or other Lionel CEOs, excepting Richard Kughn. But then again, the CEOs of other companies don't have layouts at home either from what I hear.
The train guys currently at Lionel include at least Ryan and Brian. I doubt there is anyone at the other vendors who is more of train guy than Mike R is and was. As for this train guy calumny, it's a lie that has often been often repeated by those who are fans of other manufacturers, who wish to badmouth Lionel. I can only conclude that the likely reason for perpetuating this frequent falsehood is that Lionel is the 800 pound gorilla in the industry, which cheeses them off .
