Lionel Mogul - Time for Answers! UPDATED!

Lionel received the new parts in March.

They were manufactured wrong and didn't work. This was stated by Gary/Superwarp on another thread.His Loco is the guinea pig

I believe Dave Olson was having the parts made "again" hopefully corrected to finally fix the issue.

This was either mentioned on a forum thread or possibly on one of the Lionel Facebook live videos.

At this point. I would "think" Lionel would give you a refund if you requested one. Can they really expect someone to keep it??

Dave is doing the best he can. I'm sure he doesn't call the shots.

What bugs me most is the fact that that these locos are still for sale on dealer shelves and websites.

Thats just plain bad business if you ask me, and not the way the M.R. Era Lionel did things.

Lionel should offer a refund. This fiasco has gone on way to long.

   Bill T

"Lionel should offer a refund."

Has anyone asked for a refund and been refused?

@Dave Olson any updates? 

They've had my Mogul for quite a while now.  I would like to have an idea of when I might actually get it back.   Not good, Big L.

http://www.lionel.com/products...witcher-300-6-28323/

Back when Mike R. was still there and the above engine failed the 4th time he did refund my $$ LOL!

They've had my Mogul for quite a while now.  I would like to have an idea of when I might actually get it back.   Not good, Big L.

I think the bigger bummer is I still want one. The Everett RR Mogul is a great looker. Unfortunately, I cannot buy one until given the green light.

Not for nothing, but I think Lionel should start looking at another factory for production, or at least put pressure on the factory to up its quality control. Between this, the issues with Lionscale rolling stock and the NW2 issues with loose trucks these problems don't bode well for Lionel.

DaveP posted:

Not for nothing, but I think Lionel should start looking at another factory for production, or at least put pressure on the factory to up its quality control. Between this, the issues with Lionscale rolling stock and the NW2 issues with loose trucks these problems don't bode well for Lionel.

Someone at Lionel may also want to "investigate" their in-country Quality Control Inspector. Sure seems like a lot more defects/errors should be caught over in China.

DaveP posted:

Not for nothing, but I think Lionel should start looking at another factory for production, or at least put pressure on the factory to up its quality control. Between this, the issues with Lionscale rolling stock and the NW2 issues with loose trucks these problems don't bode well for Lionel.

LionScale rolling stock (ex-Weaver tooling) is made in Pennsylvania and painted in North Carolina, not in China. I don’t recall of any quality-control issues with these cars.

@Dave Olson posted this update on April 3:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...-legacy-mogul-update

And replied to a post on May 1 with this info:

”The issue is the gears. Waiting for the factory to make new samples since the "fix" run did not fix the issue.

I have every intention of inquiring about a refund this week. I really don't want one - I really think it is a nice little engine and perfect for my layout - but enough is enough. 

Jim R. posted:

DaveP posted:

Not for nothing, but I think Lionel should start looking at another factory for production, or at least put pressure on the factory to up its quality control. Between this, the issues with Lionscale rolling stock and the NW2 issues with loose trucks these problems don't bode well for Lionel.

LionScale rolling stock (ex-Weaver tooling) is made in Pennsylvania and painted in North Carolina, not in China. I don’t recall of any quality-control issues with these cars.

 

I was referring to this ...

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...dern-boxcar-nice-but

DaveP posted:

Not for nothing, but I think Lionel should start looking at another factory for production, or at least put pressure on the factory to up its quality control. Between this, the issues with Lionscale rolling stock and the NW2 issues with loose trucks these problems don't bode well for Lionel.

That is not as easy as you may think. From what I understand Chinese factories are getting away from making trains and moving into other production. They don't need our train business anymore.

Scott Smith

So i’ve heard - and I know these toys are just a drop in the hat in Chinese manufacturing

scott.smith posted:

DaveP posted:

Not for nothing, but I think Lionel should start looking at another factory for production, or at least put pressure on the factory to up its quality control. Between this, the issues with Lionscale rolling stock and the NW2 issues with loose trucks these problems don't bode well for Lionel.

That is not as easy as you may think. From what I understand Chinese factories are getting away from making trains and moving into other production. They don't need our train business anymore.

Scott Smith

Rapido Trains (HO & N) occasionally puts out video's regarding production.  This one was posted in December 2017. 

At 2:24 owner Jason Shron outlines some of the current problems:

In the video, Rapido also checks out the possibilities of moving production inland 500 miles!

I would bet the folks at Lionel are not allowed to discuss these kind of issues in public.

Rusty

Gee, one small shortline loco, thrown out like a bone in a sea of redone articulated or just redones, and it doesn't work.  They should redo the Weaver 2-8-0, maybe in the Philippines, or somewhere affordable.

Jason is moving just about 75% of his company to the new location. Most of his employees are making the move, the rest are staying at the present factory. Rapido has gained a great following of customers because of these video's. I have a few Rapido HO dome CP cars on pre-order, getting a few of his New Look buses too. 

colorado hirailer posted:

Gee, one small shortline loco, thrown out like a bone in a sea of redone articulated or just redones, and it doesn't work.  They should redo the Weaver 2-8-0, maybe in the Philippines, or somewhere affordable.

The old Weaver Diecast 2-8-0 molds went to Atlas O.

Just wondering, considering the  extensive work being done to get them right if Lionel will return the engines back to dealers to sell as new or refurbished/rebuilt? 

Joe 

These Lionel posts are like an old broken record. The Lionel apologists make me laugh. There is a problem, a lot of problems that is why I work on the old tinplate.

DaveP posted:

Jim R. posted:

DaveP posted:

Not for nothing, but I think Lionel should start looking at another factory for production, or at least put pressure on the factory to up its quality control. Between this, the issues with Lionscale rolling stock and the NW2 issues with loose trucks these problems don't bode well for Lionel.

LionScale rolling stock (ex-Weaver tooling) is made in Pennsylvania and painted in North Carolina, not in China. I don’t recall of any quality-control issues with these cars.

 

I was referring to this ...

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...dern-boxcar-nice-but

Yep, that would qualify as another problem. I had missed that one, though the problem looks like it was limited to that boxcar due to the old Weaver design, according to the thread.

So it isn’t just the Chinese production that’s an issue for Lionel.

The shortage of workers in the Guangdong province is very likely tied in to the production and quality control problems Lionel is facing. And Lionel isn’t alone. I have heard different production-related complaints on specific items from Athearn and Scale Trains in HO scale, and we all know about Atlas’ production problems.

If you haven’t watched the nine-minute video by Rapido Trains (mentioned by Rusty Traque above), you should if you want some idea of what’s going on in that province.

At some point, each manufacturer will have to address these quality control problems. I don’t personally know what the reasonable solution is, given that domestic production would not support profit margins or existing prices.

Jim R. posted:

At some point, each manufacturer will have to address these quality control problems. I don’t personally know what the reasonable solution is, given that domestic production would not support profit margins or existing prices.

Except for MTH, who has had the same manufacturer build its trains for over a decade (maybe 2).

Lionel still seems to have the "Lions share" of issues and the  frequency of issues has increased dramatically in the last year or two. Probably the result of going with the lowest bidder.

Landsteiner posted:

"Lionel should offer a refund."

Has anyone asked for a refund and been refused?

Yep and was told thanks for my patience!

-Regards

CS

Jim R. posted:

@Dave Olson posted this update on April 3:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...-legacy-mogul-update

And replied to a post on May 1 with this info:

”The issue is the gears. Waiting for the factory to make new samples since the "fix" run did not fix the issue.

The motor bracket and gears are different than the TMCC and conventional versions.

I refuse to give up on this engine.”

You can see this thread at:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...86#79142442687459186

I haven’t heard Lionel say it will deny a refund to anyone who wants one. Obviously, it is trying to avoid a full recall as well as satisfying those who want a working Mogul. So those who are too frustrated to care may want to contact Lionel directly and see if a refund is an option. Then report back here.

Hello Jim,

I emailed Dean Brasseur with customer service last week and inquired about a refund or even a credit for something else.  His response to me were that they're  going to try a few more things before they start repairing them and to please hang in there.  He thanked me for my patience and he knew how i felt.  So to answer your question,  NO a refund is not an option right now.

Blake

  So to answer your question,  NO a refund is not an option right now.

Any recourse going through your credit card company (if used to buy the loco)?
I thought many card companies offered customer protection / warranties.

C W Burfle posted:

  So to answer your question,  NO a refund is not an option right now.

Any recourse going through your credit card company (if used to buy the loco)?
I thought many card companies offered customer protection / warranties.

Hi C.W.

I haven't even given that a thought.  I did use my card but I think the card company would go after the dealer that sold it to me instead of Lionel, but then again, I'm sure the dealer knew about the problems those moguls were having way before selling it to me.

Blake

I haven't even given that a thought.  I did use my card but I think the card company would go after the dealer that sold it to me instead of Lionel, but then again, I'm sure the dealer knew about the problems those moguls were having way before selling it to me.

I'm not so sure that should be your concern.

I think proper protocol would be to reach out to the dealer for the refund first if you have the locomotive in your possession.  If they refuse, then get with your CC company.  The policies are not all the same and Amex is actually the most customer oriented of them all.  The other card policies through Visa and MC can largely depend on the issuing bank and the actual card.

If the loco is at Lionel, I would send an official certified letter requesting a refund to get the ball rolling.  I would notify your dealer as well just in case.  Again if Lionel refused I would notify the dealer and give them the chance to assist.  If again it was refused then notify the CC company.

Keep in mind even if using a debit card many banks offer buyer protection.  PayPal has it too.

TexasSP posted:

I think proper protocol would be to reach out to the dealer for the refund first if you have the locomotive in your possession.  If they refuse, then get with your CC company.  The policies are not all the same and Amex is actually the most customer oriented of them all.  The other card policies through Visa and MC can largely depend on the issuing bank and the actual card.

If the loco is at Lionel, I would send an official certified letter requesting a refund to get the ball rolling.  I would notify your dealer as well just in case.  Again if Lionel refused I would notify the dealer and give them the chance to assist.  If again it was refused then notify the CC company.

Keep in mind even if using a debit card many banks offer buyer protection.  PayPal has it too.

I just sent an email to the dealer so lets see what kind of response i get.

Blake

IMO, this whole thing's got "class action"  written all over it....

I think it would really help Lionel's image in this if they set up an online form you could fill out your name, address, email, and locomotive number so that they know how many are waiting for this fix.  Plus it gives us comfort in knowing Lionel can drop me a line with a RMA once they have a fix.  And if they use something like Google forms then there is no real manpower spent on it to maintain it once it's set up.  Once they have a fix, they just start at the top of the list and start issuing RMAs.  Would also keep them from getting bogged down by having an onslaught of RMA requests.

Dealers usually limit returns and refunds to 30 days from date of purchase. They can facilitate warranty returns after that point, but they are dependent on Lionel honoring that warranty.

If Lionel is refusing refunds right now, that’s a problem for both dealer and customer alike. 

Again, I understand why Lionel is trying to fix the Mogul rather than offering immediate refunds, but I think the suggestion that buyers be patient has worn way too thin with a few. Given that the product is completely unusable at this point, Lionel needs to clearly state what its criteria is for making its choice of repair or refund.

More to the point, I can see why certain customers are demanding a refund at this juncture. If the repair parts had arrived in working order, buyers would have had confidence in the process. But they didn’t. Lionel should consider that aspect before denying a refund right now. 

Let me just add that there is probably no one more frustrated than Dave Olson at this point. He has spent a massive amount of time on the diagnosis, design solution and attempted repair of the problem created by this one model, only to have his efforts wasted by Lionel’s production partner. And he has angry buyers making it all the more gut-wrenching. Ouch!

In case anyone is curious as to my experience so far....

I have reached out to my bank and they are ready to file a dispute to get my $$$ back once I give the go-ahead. The charge to buy this lemon is flagged on the account, ready to go.

I have emails out to my Dealer and will be giving Lionel Service a call later this afternoon. I've been more than patient on this thing.

scott.smith posted:

DaveP posted:

Not for nothing, but I think Lionel should start looking at another factory for production, or at least put pressure on the factory to up its quality control. Between this, the issues with Lionscale rolling stock and the NW2 issues with loose trucks these problems don't bode well for Lionel.

That is not as easy as you may think. From what I understand Chinese factories are getting away from making trains and moving into other production. They don't need our train business anymore.

Scott Smith

With Chinese quality as bad as it is they need to quit making trains.

Jim R. posted:

Dealers usually limit returns and refunds to 30 days from date of purchase. They can facilitate warranty returns after that point, but they are dependent on Lionel honoring that warranty.

If Lionel is refusing refunds right now, that’s a problem for both dealer and customer alike. 

Again, I understand why Lionel is trying to fix the Mogul rather than offering immediate refunds, but I think the suggestion that buyers be patient has worn way too thin with a few. Given that the product is completely unusable at this point, Lionel needs to clearly state what its criteria is for making its choice of repair or refund.

More to the point, I can see why certain customers are demanding a refund at this juncture. If the repair parts had arrived in working order, buyers would have had confidence in the process. But they didn’t. Lionel should consider that aspect before denying a refund right now. 

Let me just add that there is probably no one more frustrated than Dave Olson at this point. He has spent a massive amount of time on the diagnosis, design solution and attempted repair of the problem created by this one model, only to have his efforts wasted by Lionel’s production partner. And he has angry buyers making it all the more gut-wrenching. Ouch!

 

I think the cost of refunds should be Lionel's burden, however restitution for those who purchased this locomotive won't work that way.  The CC company, bank, or PayPal will refund and pull the funds from the dealer it was purchased from.  The dealer will need to similarly force a refund through their financial institution if Lionel refuses to refund them.

UPDATE!

Just got off the phone with Katie over at Lionel's Customer Service center. She told me that they are now taking the Moguls back and issuing RA numbers for them, as of this morning. The repairs will not be done until sometime this fall (September/October per her estimate). They want them all there to prep them and expedite the repairs once parts are in.

After a few more questions, Lionel agreed to "buy back" my Mogul. I will be shipping it back to Lionel tomorrow and will be getting a check in the mail sometime in the next few weeks for the total purchase price.

Just what I was told, don't hold me to it.....

SJC posted:

UPDATE!

Just got off the phone with Katie over at Lionel's Customer Service center. She told me that they are now taking the Moguls back and issuing RA numbers for them, as of this morning. The repairs will not be done until sometime this fall (September/October per her estimate). They want them all there to prep them and expedite the repairs once parts are in.

After a few more questions, Lionel agreed to "buy back" my Mogul. I will be shipping it back to Lionel tomorrow and will be getting a check in the mail sometime in the next few weeks for the total purchase price.

Just what I was told, don't hold me to it.....

After a long refreshing weekend in the mountains of Vermont I find this thread.  Dave has said nothing to me and the last time I talked to him was last week awaiting another batch of parts.  I will inquire and get back to you all.

I really want a fix for this engine.  I have no Rutland steamers on my roster.  I'm sure Dave will find the fix as this issue is taking a lot of his time which should be used for up and coming projects.