Lionel says goodbye to transformer controlled train sets

I would say DCS was innovative too. It drove the need to Lionel to up the standard and go to Legacy. 

 

Funny how Lionel's RC is innovative command control, but any one else's RC remote is not?  G

 

 

That's OK I will never buy another that is not battery powered.  Or that can be readily converted to battery power.

My experience with rechargeable batteries depends on the usage of the item.  Experience of often used things like rechargeable phones, cell phones has been good.

 

Items that I do not use often like rechargeable drills and screw drivers has not been good.  As I have lots of these tools (most 110v and hand driven), the rechargeable one(s) do not get used often and after a couple years the batteries fail.  This goes for things like yard blowers and hedge trimmers too.  This explains why I see lots of these tools at cheap prices at yard sales, even higher quality names like Milwalukee and Porter Cable.

 

Therefore, if one is going to use a rechargeable battery run train engine only a few weeks at Christmas and then store it the rest of the year, it will be a poor choice.

 

If one has only one or two rechargeable battery engines and uses them often, all year long, it can be a better choice.

 

Charlie

If you only want a train to run under the tree, just get one of those cheap G gauge battery sets. Why put out  $100 or more for basically a decoration? I used to have a Bachmann Big Hauler G gauge set that ran on batteries and was radio controlled. It was great for running under the tree.

I think it is a mistake to not have a conventional mode. When we lost the remote for our Thomas train we were sunk, until we found it again. I think this will be bad when loco is for sale at a meet and a remote is needed, but not available. The buyer will not be able to test the loco.

I don't think the remote issue will be an issue for long once the universal is out.  You be able to get a back up.

 

The problem I wonder about is the vast amount of different set that will be produced over the years.  Lionel is a larger company than MTH, Atlas, Bachmann and they do produce a lot of set every year.  Almost seems like they have 30 or more different set each year.  NO One else does that.  MTH set strategy is total different than Lionel's in my opinion.

 

At some point Lionel will have an issue managing all these different codes and remotes for parts.

 

So I am sure it will have to evolve.  Why can't the LC remote be universal even if one channel.  Once the LC engine is powered up the remote associates itself.  Hence any remote can control any engine, but only the engine has the unique ID by model.

 

As far as future tech to replace other COMMAND Systems.  I still do not think so.  Not that it can't be done by a new manufacture that wants to take on Lio and MTH using spread spectrum Radio Control.  But the investment in Legacy and the Legacy and TMCC Compatible product sold would not be backwards compatible.  For Lionel to try to get their customers to sell their old to buy new, not because the engine performs more, or does it better, but just because the control system is better will never happen in my opinion.  They are bonded to the current methodology unless some translator is made.

 

If you look at MTH DCS, from the beginning it gave you top of the line control features for your engines and accessories.  Far more than TMCC could ever do.   Legacy became the equalizer.  MTH has continued to improve on the internal engine hardware, but all DCS engines are compatible whether PS-2 5V, 3V or PS-3.  They also innovated into all scale with the same control system via miniaturization.    HO, S, O, G  All controlled with same TIU.

 

I think Lionel has to stay on the same path with Legacy, with constant improvement in the internal electronics.  I do think the LC and LC+ can become the new conventional set model and reduces Lionel's cost to make them, which means they can continue to make them and be profitable.  But there still is a vast Conventional only group of operators that exist invisible to this forum.  Lionel product will have to have that capability, or they won't sell it.  So I can see LC+ control becoming the standard for beginner sets.

 

I know other love LC+ because of the features it gives you in a semi scale engine.  But nothing prevented Lionel from giving you those same features with TMCC.  They did in the 2000 less cruise and fan driven smoke.  But hardly anything had those features in the 2000 except MTH.

 

The problem is that TMCC R2LC is an obsolete product with limited capability.  AC based ground, with 5 outputs only.  2 couplers and 3 others configurable.  So I do think this LC+ integrate board was meant as the ultimate replacement, but it does limit usability for the person who wants a full command controlled layout despite being confined to semi scale and less expensive engines.  It is not a good fit since you need a different remote.  Though the ability to operate multiple LC+ engines is a different twist.  At the price point provided.

 

The counter is it is a one time investment in CAB-1l, DCS or Legacy that allows you to have full control of a layout.  Tracks, Engines, Switches, Routes, Accessories.  G

 

 

As I read through this thread -- aside from the entertainment value provided by the Kool-Aid drinkers  -- it became crystal clear to me how there could be so many folks still only interested in conventional operation.  Each of us has our "comfort zones" that we've settled into... whether we realize it or not.

 

For me, it's Legacy/TMCC/DCS.  All this LC and LC+ chatter isn't even on my radar screen.  And when new locomotives using that technology are catalog'd, I just glance over those pages.  I "get" the fact that it's Lionel's new way to deliver starter sets.  But to me it's a solution looking for a problem to solve.  It's highly unlikely that the technology will ever "replace" Legacy/TMCC/DCS.  And if it does, I won't be buying a ticket on that train, because I'll already have had too much invested in existed product.  Holds absolutely ZERO interest for me.

 

So if anything, I now better understand the thinking of the conventional-only crowd, 'cause that's where I'll be with Legacy/TMCC/DCS if any newer technology tries to supplant it.  I'll even go so far as to predict the newer technology might encounter an even higher resistance rate, because so many of us already have more trains in this lifetime than our great-grandchildren can enjoy.  There's only so much new technology that can be absorbed into this already "little corner of the world". 

 

If a newer-technology system builds on -- and is compatible with -- Legacy/TMCC/DCS, then that's fine, and I'd be interested.  If not, then it's a non-starter in my world.  Forgettaboudit.  

 

 

David 

Water over the dam.

 

My son is most interested in playing video games on Steam.

 

Watching football or basketball maybe second, playing drums third.

 

He has zero interest in trains.

 

Couldn't get him interested in Legos or the modern equivalent of Erector set (Mecanno?). I learned alot goofing around with Erector, and those electrical kit toys. Couldn't get him interested in that either.

 

You can put whatever you want on your trains, the ship is still heading towards the iceberg.

 

I think the majority of us are in agreement one no longer buys model trains with the anticipation that their value will go up, we get what we want, and we don't expect anybody is going to be able to get much for them after we die.

 

Concerning the loss of conventional transformer control, whoop dee do. There are so many used conventional transformers out there, anybody that wants one can find it, just like tubular track. Even if you only want to buy conventional engines, you can still control them with products from Lionel or MTH.

Michael T., you nailed it.  That's why I said LC/LC+ is a "solution looking for a problem to solve".  The proverbial barn door was left open years ago, and the horses have left that barn.  And for those of us who have landed in our respective "comfort zones", there is such a glut of toy trains (and power accessories) in the marketplace now, nobody should have any trouble locating what they need in the foreseeable future.

 

David

so now will the cost of those old technology transformers become a golden price?

 

the only ones that use transformers with handles-knobs are like myself as we grew up with what we thought were the current electronics available.

 

I doubt most will miss them but I wonder what will replace the upcoming phone/tablet control using apps? 

"But nothing prevented Lionel from giving you those same features with TMCC."

 

You are making some assumptions that are incorrect.  Re-engineering a TMCC compatible remote and receiver for,  say,  Thomas,  would have cost substantially more than using off the shelf R/C equipment that is available.  Lionel went with something that was readily available from suppliers, likely to be available for a decade or more hence, superior technology for communications, and strikingly cheaper. 

 

With all the doom and gloom about the future the hobby and industry, one forgets that this doom and gloom has been offered for more than half a century.  It's still wrong.  This is a small but reasonably stable hobby from the standpoint of starter sets, even if the high end is getting smaller.  There is a constant supply of 8 year olds and 80 year olds who weren't available the year before .  It isn't all about the needs of the average 50-70 year old.  Lionel sells hundreds of thousands of sets every yet, and in the future they will mostly be LionChief or perhaps LionChief +.  This technology is inexpensive, robust and simple.  It is so successful that Lionel has developed LionChief Plus the year after LionChief, and a multiple loco remote the year after that.  It seems highly likely that even more ambitious plans will be implemented as the product continues to attract consumers.

I've had DCS, I have TMCC, and frankly, I prefer LionChief plus for its virtues.  In the last year, I will have bought four LionChief Plus locos, three LionChief sets (to donate), one Legacy loco, and one conventional loco.  I may or may not be typical, but I'm sure there are plenty of folks out there with similar purchasing habits, because the number of LionChief sets and LionChief Plus locos keeps increasing in the catalog.  If it's not for you, that's fine.  But it's clear this technology and approach is a hit for Lionel. Doomsayers and Eeyore's can make all the curmudgeonly remarks but it won't change reality .

I don't think so. I think out-of-the-box accessibility and comfort is a big problem with trains and kids. Kids today are so clever with interfaces, yet they are intimidated by things that seem so easy to us who are a little older. I have seen it in my young cousins: they were scared of moving the ZW handle, yet they took to the TMCC remote like ducks to water. If you want kids to have any chance of taking to trains, you make it easy for them, and you save some bucks on the transformer, too. Win/win.

 

LC+ solves another problem: it offers the conventional operator a traditional-sized train with higher quality sound and finer speed control than you can get from conventional DC motors without electronics. This fills a niche: Most conventional operators in 3-rail O are going to be interested in traditional-sized equipment--yet all the trains with the better innards lately have been scale offerings. Yes, there are thousands of traditional-sized, conventional engines out there--good for me, but bad for Lionel! If Lionel wants my conventional dollar, they need to give me something not already available, and LC+ does that. It finds my comfort zone while still offering an upgrade path for those who liked their LC starter sets. I see a few LC+ engines in my future, for sure.

 

I wish all the starter sets were LC+ though. The market has changed such that many engines and rolling stock which are now in starter sets look good next to higher-end items of decades past. It would be nice to be able to use those engines on conventional layouts, too. I bet some would.

 

Really, the only bad side I see for the LC starter set is that dad or grandpa could not pull out his old train to run on junior's tracks. Given how much the industry, and Lionel most of all, relies on nostalgia and cross-generation brand loyalty, I would not want to lose that possibility. But then, if dad or grandpa has an old train, he probably has the transformer, too. But I wonder if he thinks to use it as a power supply for the LC set?

As someone who works at a LHS, what LionChief sets do is enable a beginner to build a multiple train layout without the headaches of block control that is required with conventional (transformer) sets, while avoiding the biggest headache of command control, programming.

 

Stuart

 

 

I'm sure Lionel knows the market of decade ago (Polar Express) no longer exists. Their strategy today seems to be marketing expensive remote controlled traditional trains, sets and track (no tubular) to a far smaller consumer base ( grandparents).

They must believe simple command control will obsolete 70 yea.rs worth of repetitive transformer controlled trains and be their ticket to higher profits.

With so many attention getting alternatives available, not sure CC will achieve their goal.

Joe 

 

"With all the doom and gloom about the future the hobby and industry, one forgets that this doom and gloom has been offered for more than half a century.  It's still wrong.  This is a small but reasonably stable hobby from the standpoint of starter sets, even if the high end is getting smaller.  There is a constant supply of 8 year olds and 80 year olds who weren't available the year before .  It isn't all about the needs of the average 50-70 year old."

 

This is one of the best posts on this thread and I think it offers a lot of perspective on why people are running around saying the sky is falling. I have been reading about the death of trains since I can remember, I remember in the histories of Lionel how by the 1960's, TV was going to destroy three rail, then I started hearing the same thing about even scale model railroading, that tv, slot cars, rc planes, then computers, video games, etc were going to kill these off as kids suddenly became these alien creatures who didn't have what we did (doesn't matter what age we are, whether 40's, 50's,60's, etc, same thing).  It is much the same thing that drives some of the stuff we see in the broader society, nostalgia for a time that probably never really existed. Back in the golden age of Lionel or whatever you want to call it, we have this impression that these things were the video games of their generation, but in reality they weren't. Yes, a lot of kids wanted trains when they were small, but a lot of them never got them, because they were expensive, comparatively video games, even with the cost of the consoles and the games, is a lot cheaper than trains ever were. Most kids back then didn't have empires, they had a relatively modest collection of track in some sort of small layout, with a limited amount of rolling stock and engines, and it was because they were expensive, even used.  And they had the same problem back then we do today, kids as they grow up find other interests, back then kids switched to HO and N because it was less expensive and in the same small space, could have a more expansive layout. You read the articles of the people now building the layouts and what do you read? They hit their teen years, they discovered cars and romantic relationships and sports, and the trains were put in an attic or were sold or given away. If you graphed this, put age on the X axis, and interest in trains on the Y, you would see a giant shape like --|_____|--, where it is steady at the younger ages at a high level, it goes down, bottoms for a number of years, then comes back later on (and I make no claim to scale fidelity for this drawing). 

 

Why is this important? It is because probably a large percent of those train sets represent a very limited duration market and always has, the memories of some on here are focused through their own love for the trains and kind of assumed everyone had it, when they didn't. So if the LC or LC+ units ever break down, it is likely that by the time they are read to do so they likely will be abandoned by most who got them. They put these units in the context of the post war trains they so love (as I do), and think that in 20 or 30 years someone would want to run these LC starter set trains and won't be able to....when it is a totally different beast. For one thing, conventional had such a long run, up until the invention of command control in the 90's, the trains had changed very little, so there were generations of us who all we knew was the transformer  controlled/block control/forward-neutral-reverse/whistle trains, and it was a run of let's say 50 years (for postwar). 

 

But it is going to be different going down the road, as people come back in in 20 years, 30 years, they would not have experienced post war or transformer the way we did, if I had grown up and trains had remote controls on them, I would expect if I got back into it that is what would be the norm. More importantly, the mentality is going to be different for younger generations, they grow up in an era when they aren't really expecting to go back to the things they had when they were kids (with some exceptions), with things changing so rapidly, you go with what is out there, it is a very different mentality. So a kid who gets a LC set and actually likes trains, is likely to move on to DCS/Legacy if he/she stays in it. Even if the kid gets a transformer set when they become aware that there is command control out there, they likely will want to move on to that anyway.  And they are used to a world where things break, you don't necessarily fix them, like I said, in 20 years, if they get into trains again, they likely will be starting from scratch, they won't be looking back to the trains they had a ad kid, the same way if they get back into video games as an adult they won't be looking to use their old Xbox or PS unit, it will be whatever is out there. Yes, conventional trains are still relatively easy to fix, if a reverser board goes bad, there are alternatives to replace it with,and if the motor goes a can motor is relatively easy to find..but fewer and fewer will be doing that. 

 

I think some of the reaction to this is those who loved conventionally controlled trains from their youth and see trains as being that, and hate to think it is going, and in some part I suspect it is because right now, through conventional control/Post war, we can remember times past, a father or grandfather who had those kind of trains, ran them, and the idea that someday post war might be only the realm of a few nostalgia buffs or collectors for the rare items, bothers them. The world where you changed the brushes or cleaned the gaps between the commutator sections on a motor is going away, and Lionel committing to LC seems to be the death knell for that. Then we have those who see conventional as the only 'authentic' way to have trains (much the same way we sadly have those who see conventional operation as 'playing with trains' because they use command, those who pooh pooh those who like 'non scale trains' because only scale will do) and this is a threat to that idea, since it seems to indicate conventional eventually will be as obsolete as the hand crank on a car. We are in a bubble, thanks to the baby boom that drove the Lionel post war boom and kept it going during the decline after the early 60's, where conventional was it, but that is figuratively and literally dying off as we age (I am part of that period, obviously).

 

To me, if LC can get parents to buy trains for their kids, and kids get exposed to this, and it means in 20 years or 30 years or whatever some of those kids are arguing about things, how simple radio control was better than the holographic trains of the modern era, I'll be happy that there are still people into the trains. There will always be people into conventional, and if in the future let's say no more conventional controlled engines are produced, I would bet you would see a small niche market of kits to allow RC only engines to work conventionally, and there will still be transformers out there, either original ones that have been reworked, or new ones that have been made to fit the needs of those who want to do it. 

 

It is funny, I see much of the same thing in the car world, when I hear people (who are generally the same age as those complaining about the 'end' of conventional train control) complaining about the complexity of modern cars, that you can't fix them with a pair of pliers and  screwdriver the way you could in the old days, how the new cars are too complex and 'break too much' and are too expensive to repair. What they leave out is the cars today are infinitely superior to what we had back then, and that the cost of keeping and maintaining them is a lot less then they were back then (anyone remember when mechanics had to pull the heads on cars at 20k, 30k miles to 'de-carbonize' the pistons?). Cars today in many ways are so superior to what was on the roads back then, yet people mythologize them (part of the reason is back then, when a car got to 25,30k miles, people were getting rid of them to buy a new car). I am not saying that the modern command control engines are more reliable than conventional engines of the post war period were, just saying that we often mythologize what we knew well. 

 

I honestly thing Lionel is smart to drop the transformer for these starter sets, it makes sense, conventional might seem simpler (it is), but it also fits what will intrigue kids and adults today. The other thing is the starter set engines are more akin to the cheap engines Lionel came up with in past years for their base starter sets, the scout engines, the cheap steam engine that was my son's first train set engine 20 years ago or so, so LC if it makes it cheaper than LC+ makes sense (personally, I doubt supporting conventional control with lC+ is all that much more expensive than LC, reversing logic and maybe being able to sound the whistle plus the slide switch to set mode can't be all that much, at most a couple of bucks, I think they are doing that because they want people to move up to the more expensive engines, that will support both). I haven't seen any sign that conventional only engines are going away in the near future, or that they are removing conventional from the command engines, given that it doesn't cost them much if anything to support it, given how simple conventional operation is, so I don't know why the conventional operators care, likewise with the amount of transformers out there, old and new, I doubt if they need one it won't be available, now or in the future. 

 

 

Dont you still need a transformer to run LC+, TMCC, DCS, ETC. We're does the power come from? Indeed, an interesting thread. 

They're talking about the traditional low tech transformer with one or two levers (or dials) where the poor unfortunate operator has to plant himself at one location in order to enjoy his trains.

 

Rusty

As long as the operator is enjoying the trains why should it matter where he or she is situated?

 

Pete

I wonder what effect this will have on the secondary market? It's my impression that folks who purchase these radio controlled sets won't be able to stop by the local train show (or train shop) and pick up a gang car, or any other traditionally control motorized piece, take it home, and just use it with their set.

 

Oh, well.

Yep, a conventional powered motorized unit will fly like Superman with 18 volts hitting the rollers.

 

   Bill T.

I agree, most of us don't have layouts so large we can't see what the train at the far end away from us is doing.

Looks like we're going from this...

 

To this..

 

Thank you Lionel for becoming part of the problem!

 

Jerry

My comment was tongue-in-cheek. 

 

It seems they're coming up with more things to add degrees of separation from operator and train in the name of "fun."

 

And of course, only funky remotes and smart phone apps will bring the young'uns into the hobby.

 

I wonder how many new model railroaders "Battle Train" (remember that?) brought into the hobby.

 

Rusty

 

Is it really adding a degree of separation, or is it replacing a degree of separation that already exists (transformer handles) with a different one (remote)?

How would you know, and I believe you are incorrect.  MTH can make PS-3 sized for HO.  I am sure Lionel has the competence to do the same, and in fact the CTO has already done it under the ERR product line.  But as I stated TMCC is an older and less capable product line.  My only point is that it is not LC+ that delivered the Semi-scale steam shell, it came from the TMCC 2000 vintage line.  A fan driven smoke unit does not required LC+ to work, they been using them for years.  LC+ sounds are used in conventional engines under the Trainsounds and RS Convention.  Board exist already.

 

Lionel's new team has systematically been going through the product lines and updating and improving the electronics and consolidating products.  The Legacy board are an integrated board now varied by software.  The RS line also had an upgrade to sounds and an integrated board. New CAB-1L just done to replace CAB-1, etc...  Plus I wasn't talking Toy sets, but the LC+ line.  Those products good easily have been done with ERR TMCC/Cruise and a fan driven smoke unit.

 

LC+ really isn't an off the shelf product, if so where can we buy it.  Rather they built an integrated control, motor drive and sound board that operates on an off the shelve current technology.  Just like TMCC was using current components and frequency of the time.  Good on them.

 

I still think this is all about Corporate operation and profit vice some other scheme.

 

There are 4 or more different conventional electronic reverse units used in just the Polar Express.  With one upgrade to electronics and making it the only conventional product line, they can shutdown and no longer have to support 4 separate boards.

 

They exchange an MSRP $149 transformer for a $30 walwart.  The electronics is a wash less initial development cost.  In one swoop you save a $100 in MSRP cost of the set while only reducing MSRP $20 and giving more capability to a customer.  With only a few limitations.  (MSRP cost comparison is just relative).

 

As far as market share, profits, future of the hobby, that is all to be determines in the coming years.  All new products have an initial surge in sales.  Long term sales and there impact are determine with time.  Hope it works out.

 

As far as you ending comments I did not quote.  As Ronald Reagan said... There you go again.

 

Why cast disparaging remarks on those that don't agree with you. Just argue facts and let folks figure it out.

 

I am sorry TMCC, DCS and Legacy are too complicated for you.  I am just a caveman when I started and I had no problems, nor do the multitude of 8 to 80yo I seen come into the LHS I managed.  Preference is one thing, saying it is too hard to master is a red herring.

 

How long do you think you can keep an 8yo engaged with a simple 5 button remote.  You won't.  In my opinion they need to challenged to keep them engaged.  That means added complexity when ready.  DCS and Legacy do that.

 

LC is a direct replacement of conventional sales.  LC+ is a catch some more that replaces TMCC product.  How that all works out will be seen.  G

 

 

When I was a kid the big thing in music was the cassette tape. Then came compact disc and digital recording. People threw out their vinyl albums in favor of the new technology. Vacuum tube amps gave way to integrated circuits. Now those old technologies are making a comeback. People are seeking the "soul" of the music  that digital technology removed. Perhaps something like that will happen to O-gauge in 40 or 50 years.  LOL

I think that already happened for some of us. Prewar is fairly affordable nowadays...come and join us! 

 

Tom

"I am sorry TMCC, DCS and Legacy are too complicated for you.  I am just a caveman when I started and I had no problems, nor do the multitude of 8 to 80yo I seen come into the LHS I managed.  Preference is one thing, saying it is too hard to master is a red herring."

 

This is both inaccurate and a serious misinterpretation of what was written, both as to content and intent. 

 

TMCC is fairly easy, reasonably reliable,  but more expensive to manufacture than LC and LC+.  Compare the costs of basic ERR boards (about $100 as I recall) with replacement printed circuit boards for LC ($20-30 as I recall).  That's objective information.

 

DCS is less simple and less bulletproof than both TMCC and LC.  I don't have enough Legacy experience to comment, but my impression is that it is more complex than TMCC, and also has occasional reliability issues.  DCS is also quite expensive compared with LC boards.  Compare the replacement costs of MTH PS3 boards with similar replacement costs for LC.  The information is available on the respective websites.  PS3 is about $200.  LC printed circuit boards are in the $20-30 range when I checked today.

 

The RF link and overall communication reliability for LC is, at least in my hands,  and from what I read here,  and hear from many others I know, substantially less subject to interference and signal loss than TMCC (not that it's a very big issue), and substantially more trouble free and less quirky than DCS.  No one is suggesting that the additional expense of TMCC, Legacy and DCS aren't entirely worthwhile for those interested in those additional capabilities.  I am suggesting that LC and LC+ have a lot to offer consumers from reliability, value and compatibility standpoints.

 

My comment about the number of 8 and 80 year olds and the size of the hobby had nothing to do with these issues, of course.  It had everything to do with the tendency of some experienced hobbyists to moan about the future of both civilization and model railroading.  If, for instance,  one sees smart phones as the devil's work or some sort of moral issue, I personally find that rather silly.  Times change, model railroading seems to continue.  New people come into the hobby.  People lose interest and/or die.  These are realities, but the hobby goes on this last half century despite some hiccups.  I feel sympathy for those are threatened by these entirely benign changes in the hobby and life in general but I'm not likely to experience their opinions as life and death issues, at least for myself.   They are entitled to their opinions, but when they make character assessements of the young people I train and my children based upon these distorted metrics, I do take exception in a firm but civil way .

Would you please be so kind as to cite your sources for statements like " Lionel sells hundreds of thousands of sets" and "But it's clear this technology and approach is a hit for Lionel."? Do you have knowledge of this or are you referencing anecdotal personal opinion? Just curious.

 

As far as kids liking this remote more, I will say this- My son is 8 and he has been running TMCC, DCS, and Legacy since he was 3. He has never had a problem with being able to understand how to use any of those systems. He was given a Lionel G scale Polar Express set that contained an RC control that looks basically the same as LionChief. Guess which one he got bored with and doesn't run anymore? He also has conventional engines that he enjoys running with the transformer. He also understand cloud computing... I think you would be surprised what kids are capable of grasping these days.

 

What I don't understand is why Lionel on one hand is saying here is a low cost remote system, then on the other hand they are saying- The future is an app running on your device, not remotes anymore. It would make more sense IF the apps could also control the LC and LC+ engines, but nope. I think they are fishing in both ends to see what response they get.

"Would you please be so kind as to cite your sources for statements like " Lionel sells hundreds of thousands of sets" and "But it's clear this technology and approach is a hit for Lionel."? Do you have knowledge of this or are you referencing anecdotal personal opinion? Just curious."

 

Sure.  The information about set sales derives from conversations, a few years ago,  with Lionel personnel (not to be named,  obviously, particularly given the current emphasis on secrecy), published media interviews with Lionel,  and legal documents from the MTH lawsuit.  The information about LionChief comes from interviews in the media with Lionel leadership, simple inspection of the catalog, discussions with dealers of my acquaintance, and importantly, the rapid response to public comment that led to introduction of changes such as LionChief Plus and the multi-loco remote.  If it's not a hit, one would have to conclude that Lionel has a suicide wish or is intentionally trying to deceive the public .  I've also used the product extensively, and it's terrific, better value than anything else in the economy end of the hobby.

 

I never said all kids would prefer LionChief.  I said parents would prefer not to spend $300-400 on a RailKing set as opposed to $100-250 on a LionChief set, at least as an initial investment in the hobby.  The simple fact is that people differ.  A small number, mostly those with financial means, may dive in with a $500-1000 investment.  But most are just looking for a train for around the tree, at least initially.  LionChief and LionChief Plus provide that initial investment and the next step at reasonable cost.  And the ability to operate the locos on any layout in command control mode without additional purchases.  I would also point out that Lionel isn't exactly ignoring the high end or scale 3 rail crowd (just check the catalogs) but these folks are numerically probably <5%, maybe <1% of their customers (just my guess).  Probably account for a much larger percent of profits, but in terms of shear numbers, those of us here with thousands or tens of thousands of dollars invested in the hobby are a tiny minority.

Just anecdotally, Lionel was selling their sets just a few years ago on Amazon, at below dealer cost directly to the consumer.  LHS had an uproar. Does that factor in?  # produced, versus # sold at MSRP is two different issues.

 

LC sets and the LC+ are two totally different conversations.

 

The LC sets moving away from transformers and only providing remote control has its pro and cons.  That is all I am saying.  It certainly fits the introduction, run on parents layout model.  But I think falls short on the expanding into the hobby and keeping the attention model.

 

LC+ as a replacement for TMCC versus what could Lionel build and not build is a different conversation.

 

As far as cost and such, you do realize CTO has taken the R2LC/R4LC hardware platform and created the Legacy radio board that looks like this and cost $32 or the RCDR for $40.  So where the LC+ winds up will be interesting to see in time.  So I just don't see your reasoning for the change as reality, I think there where other factors that drove the change.  Primarily driving the cost to make a set down, while providing a marketing change to attract customer to rebuy products they have potentially bought before, and since it does fit a segment of the market not addressed, there was probably an easy board decision to give the green light.  All this is just my assessment.  No direct knowledge other than my experience managing a hobby shop and watching the process of the O market.  G

 

 2.4 GHz radio controlled digital spread spectrum drones and airplane models sell for as little as $29.95 retail for the ready to fly versions, which tells me that the wholesale cost of the 2.4 GHz transmitter and receiver components may be as little as $10-15, perhaps even less.

Will Lionel start placing LC+ into scale sized locomotives or is the LC+ an entry level set aimed at a younger demographic crowd?

"Will Lionel start placing LC+ into scale sized locomotives or is the LC+ an entry level set aimed at a younger demographic crowd?"

 

Excellent question.  I have no idea personally.  I think it will be demand driven.  If they have enough people asking for this, as they did for LionChief Plus when they only had LionChief, and as they did when people asked for a multi-loco remote, they will do it.  They won't want to cannibalize their Legacy sales, but they may be willing to do the dual inventory thing they once did for TMCC and conventional locos if the demand is large enough.  My guess is it will happen gradually if at all.  One loco in a few popular road names offered with Legacy and another similar one with LC+ with a price differential to test the waters.

Just hope that the new battery operated/remote control trains/starters sets that Lionel may introduce are not manufactured with plastic wheels and axle (to reduce the cost). This may be done by Lionel as the electrical pick-up from the tracks are no longer required and instead of conductive track it comes with plastic track, like the New Bright G scale disposable trains.