I remember what killed the attendees' ability to have public address requests (pages) made.  I was standing in the lobby of the Orange Hall (I think this was 2007), when the following announcement came over the PA system:

"Attention!  At 2:00 PM, Bob Grubba will be giving the 'Ethics in Manufacturing' seminar in the Orange Hall meeting room."

I d*** near peed my pants laughing.  Anybody else remember that?              

George

TCA, NMRA, PRRT&HS Modeling the PRR Panhandle Division between 1948-1957.

My first York meet was in 1967( I had attended one meet at the Guernsey sales pavilion )  on the way down rte 15 stopped at traffic light and got hit from behind ( had a new 1967 Chevrolet Impala 427 SS) fortunately had a trailer hitch on and the dude that hit lost because the hitch protected our car and punched his radiator! Then went for all years following in 1984 bought a travel trailer stayed on the fairgrounds by then my son was going with me  and that tradition carried on for several years.  Then as Children got older and left the house my wife stated going with me and we made it a "get away weekend." We continued that through 2015 as we sold the bulk of my accumulation!  That coupled with the Hotel (special event pricing)  cost etc. Have not gone since and miss it! I was always in the white hall and made friends with the regulars. when my son was with me we always got at least one sausage (with peppers and onions) sandwich and of course a funnel cake and an ordered or of brickers fries! 

Now things are different life has a "new normal" our son fell at home August 22 2018 and is now a C-3 Quadriplegic and he works everyday to get better.  We speak frequently about our trips to York and remember the good times! 

So enjoy don't complain about little stuff because you never know when life can change! 

Playing with Trains since 1948

TCA #66-1559

G3750 posted:

I remember what killed the attendees' ability to have public address requests (pages) made.  I was standing in the lobby of the Orange Hall (I think this was 2007), when the following announcement came over the PA system:

"Attention!  At 2:00 PM, Bob Grubba will be giving the 'Ethics in Manufacturing' seminar in the Orange Hall meeting room."

I d*** near peed my pants laughing.  Anybody else remember that?              

George

Yeah.  One of the most memorable events of all my times at York.

 

 

RT   

IMO, the glory days of York were when OGR sponsored the Thursday night at Fridays event. That get together filled up a good part of the restaurant and it was a fun time. Times and demographics change and today the dinners and even the York event is a smaller experience.  The "old days" were the best days.

Builder of the Hill Lines ( New Delta Lines). Recreating history for the model RR community.

G3750 posted:

I remember what killed the attendees' ability to have public address requests (pages) made.  I was standing in the lobby of the Orange Hall (I think this was 2007), when the following announcement came over the PA system:

"Attention!  At 2:00 PM, Bob Grubba will be giving the 'Ethics in Manufacturing' seminar in the Orange Hall meeting room."

I d*** near peed my pants laughing.  Anybody else remember that?              

George

George,

The all-time 1st place trophy winning annoucement at York. Who could forget this one besides follow the arrows on the floor, no cell phone use and no pictures.

Ted Bertiger, President

Ocean County Society of Model Railroaders Lakewood, N.J.

www.ocsmr.com

 

The AOL fairgrounds BBQ under the carport by the side of the yellow hall. We had 5 BBQ's there until we were asked to not have them on the fairgrounds. Grown men drinking beer and talking trains after dinner there was a no-no. So we moved to the Viking Club down the block for 15 more Yorks, about 8 years worth there.

Ted Bertiger, President

Ocean County Society of Model Railroaders Lakewood, N.J.

www.ocsmr.com

 

Ted Bertiger posted:
G3750 posted:

I remember what killed the attendees' ability to have public address requests (pages) made.  I was standing in the lobby of the Orange Hall (I think this was 2007), when the following announcement came over the PA system:

"Attention!  At 2:00 PM, Bob Grubba will be giving the 'Ethics in Manufacturing' seminar in the Orange Hall meeting room."

I d*** near peed my pants laughing.  Anybody else remember that?              

George

George,

The all-time 1st place trophy winning annoucement at York. Who could forget this one besides follow the arrows on the floor, no cell phone use and no pictures.

That announcement was made in 2006.  I know because I was there to hear it and I only used to attend York every 5 years during that period: 2001, 2006 and 2011 (my last York). 

I attended very frequently from the late 80's to the late 90's when the bandit shows were in their glory.  I remember the Billy Budd show in the ballroom, tent, parking lot and extending a couple of blocks down the adjacent residential area (not to mention the evening mini-shows in the hotel rooms).  You couldn't even drive into the Sheraton parking lot, let alone park there.  I always managed to run out of cash before the actual York show opened on Friday.  Fortunately the banks had a fresh supply. 

The combination of TCA opening on Thursday and the tax man clamping down at the Billy Budd managed to all but kill off the bandit shows.  Too bad.

Several years ago there were informal meetings in the Orange Hall conference room before the meet opened at Thursday noon. I attended several and they were always very informative. Subjects varied but I remember several “how to” demonstrations on scenery and a session on how to plan track layout taking “overhang” into consideration. I know some Forum regulars participated. Not sure who actually organized them. 

I’m glad I started this thread as this is what York’s all about!! Make York what you want it to be!!! I know everyone is getting older but help put in as much effort and showcase what this show has to offer. All it takes is a new train to get on here and see the bashing of York and say he’s not going. Keep it positive and that new guy might too have a life full of memories there!!! Keep the stories going as we’re all gearing up for York!!

eddie g posted:

Tom, You must have a lot of interesting stories about the train meets in the late 60's, and some of the things you found back then. How many 2332's did you have? Did you save anything?  Ed tca77-11670

Well remember Fairbanks Morse trainmasters selling for $30.00! Bought "stuff" that was going to be super scarce and really increase in value!!!(make big $$$$$)  Well it seems everybody did the same thing and brought to sell at the same time!!  

One memorable Saturday I had sold nearly nothing and between 1 and 2pm I sold nearly $6,000 in o Scale items I had been trying to sell for several years!!! 

One Item In particular was the complete set of Hiawatha Passenger car kits by  Walthers I had a price of $450.00 on them and a gentlemen was coming by my table (going the wrong way as he had come in to use the restroom in the white hall)  well he got 2 steps past my table, spied the set and backed up! "How much do you want for the set?"   $450.00 says I  "would you take oh never mind I've been looking for this set for a long time!'"    we completed the transaction and about that time some of the his friends showed up and started picking on him about taking up all the room in the car!!  

As they were about to leave He asked me why I was selling the set and I replied I thought I would never get them built. His reply "I'm 89 what do you think my chances are?"  

He was dressed in suit and tie and I'm certain  true gentleman. I will never forgot his name "Garland Branch"

  

  

Playing with Trains since 1948

TCA #66-1559

My first York meet was April 1984. I stepped into the Blue Hall for the first time...and at that time I learned the definition of an anxiety attack. Since then I've missed 3 meets. I'm starting to think this is like a Twilight Zone episode...each time I go I lose 6 months off my life.

 

rat

scale rail posted:

For years my great friend Jim Madden would ask me to come along with him to York. I would think about it and then just say "no" it's just a bigger than normal TCA meet. Wish I took him up on it. He's gone now. Don

Don, Just do it sometime.  I know you are a long way away, but you’ll be glad you did.

Doug N 

 

 

Chief Engineer of the "See & Owe" railroad. When I see something that I like I will soon owe someone for it.

G3750 posted:

I remember what killed the attendees' ability to have public address requests (pages) made.  I was standing in the lobby of the Orange Hall (I think this was 2007), when the following announcement came over the PA system:

"Attention!  At 2:00 PM, Bob Grubba will be giving the 'Ethics in Manufacturing' seminar in the Orange Hall meeting room."

I d*** near peed my pants laughing.  Anybody else remember that?              

George

I certainly do remember that. Amazing that K-Line would hire him after what he cost Lionel. But it really was very funny.

Gerry

  Home of the BRATS RR  

 

 

 

gmorlitz posted:
G3750 posted:

I remember what killed the attendees' ability to have public address requests (pages) made.  I was standing in the lobby of the Orange Hall (I think this was 2007), when the following announcement came over the PA system:

"Attention!  At 2:00 PM, Bob Grubba will be giving the 'Ethics in Manufacturing' seminar in the Orange Hall meeting room."

I d*** near peed my pants laughing.  Anybody else remember that?              

George

I certainly do remember that. Amazing that K-Line would hire him after what he cost Lionel. But it really was very funny.

Gerry

Gerry,

I was shocked, absolutely shocked that Maury Kline hired him.  What was he thinking?    Tells you something, doesn't it?  

George

TCA, NMRA, PRRT&HS Modeling the PRR Panhandle Division between 1948-1957.

This is only back to April of 2014 and while certainly not an "old" York memory it was only done on one other occasion.   Here are some pics from the 1st York Tailgate Party on Thursday morning prior to the meet held in the parking lot between the grandstand and Orange Hall:

20140424_09392320140424_09463420140424_09532720140424_09534120140424_10082520140424_10085220140424_10091620140424_100918

- Greg

Member of the Brotherhood of the Crappy Basement Layout

Associate Member of the NJ Hi-Railers

Image result for nj hirailers logo

 

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G3750 posted:
gmorlitz posted:
G3750 posted:

I remember what killed the attendees' ability to have public address requests (pages) made.  I was standing in the lobby of the Orange Hall (I think this was 2007), when the following announcement came over the PA system:

"Attention!  At 2:00 PM, Bob Grubba will be giving the 'Ethics in Manufacturing' seminar in the Orange Hall meeting room."

I d*** near peed my pants laughing.  Anybody else remember that?              

George

I certainly do remember that. Amazing that K-Line would hire him after what he cost Lionel. But it really was very funny.

Gerry

Gerry,

I was shocked, absolutely shocked that Maury Kline hired him.  What was he thinking?    Tells you something, doesn't it?  

George

Maury Kline was no angel himself and there was a very good reason on why Maury hired him. Bob Grubba had allot of contacts with builders overseas and Maury wanted what both Lionel and MTH was getting into----the scale 3 rail segment of the hobby. 

Dave

"I'm not in the know, just who was Bob Grubba ?"

Bob Grubba is very much alive and well.  Indeed, his company, Broadway Limited Imports is one of the premier importers of high quality HO and N scale brass locomotives with DCC and passenger and freight cars.  They also import some interesting sound systems.  One of his partners is Ken Silvestri, who also worked for Lionel in the 1990s.

https://www.broadway-limited.com/

My own view is that Mr. Grubba has been the subject of slander by people in the O gauge hobby.  Mostly people who are misinformed about the substance of the lawsuit against Lionel for allegedly "using MTH designs" back in the 1990s.  In reality, the "crime," if any, was committed by Korean designers who worked for multiple companies and provided the same designs to both Samhongsa (MTH's partner) and Korea Brass (Lionel's partner).  People were convicted in Korea, but never in the USA.

Was Bob Grubba, who was head of Lionel's engineering department at the time, aware that this was going on?  Perhaps. But it was accepted and common practice in Korea, and continued until MTH decided Lionel was competing too effectively .  It went on under the radar, so to speak.   This lawsuit led to both Samhongsa and Korea Brass going out of business I believe.

However, Grubba was neither indicted nor involved in the actual "borrowing" of designs, was never named in the lawsuit and bears little or no responsibility for what was going on in Korea in my view.  Our industry's contempt for him  is misplaced.  His success while at Lionel and K-Line and as the owner of Broadway Limited suggests he is both competent and without legal liability. 

What happened was ugly and you can argue about who was to blame, but Grubba was, at worst, guilty of not knowing that contractors in Korea (MTH; Lionel) and the USA (K-line; Lionel) were using other people's intellectual property.  Not an indictable offense, or even morally culpable in my view.

The old AOL group has been meeting up every York on Thursday and Friday nights for dinner/many drinks. We were part of the original AOL online forum group back when prodigy was around, then AOL formed.

We are going on about 25 years of great friendship from being in this great hobby with folks living in different parts of the country from the east to the west coast.

Ted Bertiger, President

Ocean County Society of Model Railroaders Lakewood, N.J.

www.ocsmr.com

 

Found these pictures from past York meets.  The first one is of the bus that Neil Young used to bring out.  The second is Neil at a Friday night AOL dinner.  The third is the Wild Bill crew from Michigan (really miss you Bert!).  The last is of Tony Lash in the middle with me, Bob, Norm, and Bert.

aaqaaraasTonyandGlancy

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I didn't get my first taste of York until '97-'98.  It was train sensory overload.  MTH product displays and repair tents, Big-Mo display, Lionel tent, squeezing through the crowded aisles in red, blue/silver halls and the twists, turns, cubbyholed dealers and occasional puddles under the grandstand (yellow/gold hall?).  The toy train sounds, smell of smoke fluid, french fries, and funnel cakes with the lingering odor of chicken manure from the nearby empty cages stacked around the grandstand.  Ending the day with a smile, some train items, remembering the 1 or 2 things I forgot to go back to see and how good it felt to sit down and rest my sore feet.


Broadway Ltd. puts out some nice product in the HO and N gauge field.

Landsteiner posted:

"I'm not in the know, just who was Bob Grubba ?"

Bob Grubba is very much alive and well.  Indeed, his company, Broadway Limited Imports is one of the premier importers of high quality HO and N scale brass locomotives with DCC and passenger and freight cars.  They also import some interesting sound systems.  One of his partners is Ken Silvestri, who also worked for Lionel in the 1990s.

https://www.broadway-limited.com/

My own view is that Mr. Grubba has been the subject of slander by people in the O gauge hobby.  Mostly people who are misinformed about the substance of the lawsuit against Lionel for allegedly "using MTH designs" back in the 1990s.  In reality, the "crime," if any, was committed by Korean designers who worked for multiple companies and provided the same designs to both Samhongsa (MTH's partner) and Korea Brass (Lionel's partner).  People were convicted in Korea, but never in the USA.

Was Bob Grubba, who was head of Lionel's engineering department at the time, aware that this was going on?  Perhaps. But it was accepted and common practice in Korea, and continued until MTH decided Lionel was competing too effectively .  It went on under the radar, so to speak.   This lawsuit led to both Samhongsa and Korea Brass going out of business I believe.

However, Grubba was neither indicted nor involved in the actual "borrowing" of designs, was never named in the lawsuit and bears little or no responsibility for what was going on in Korea in my view.  Our industry's contempt for him  is misplaced.  His success while at Lionel and K-Line and as the owner of Broadway Limited suggests he is both competent and without legal liability. 

What happened was ugly and you can argue about who was to blame, but Grubba was, at worst, guilty of not knowing that contractors in Korea (MTH; Lionel) and the USA (K-line; Lionel) were using other people's intellectual property.  Not an indictable offense, or even morally culpable in my view.

Lacking above is also Bob G's involvement in the Lionel vs. MDK K-Line speed control and transformer trade secret lawsuit that eventually led to the demise of MDK-K-Line.

https://www.bizjournals.com/tr...05/09/05/story6.html


Lionel Settles K-Line Trade Secrets Lawsuit
08/10/2005
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

COMPANY CONTACT:
Mark Erickson
(586) 949-4100 x 1467
Lionel L.L.C.

MEDIA CONTACT:
Hollis Rafkin-Sax, 212-850-5789, or
Kristin Celauro, 212-850-5652,
Financial Dynamics

LIONEL SETTLES TRADE SECRETS LAWSUIT
K-Line Admits Using Lionel’s Technology and Consents to Permanent Injunction

Chesterfield, Michigan — August 10, 2005 — Lionel L.L.C., the nation’s number one model train maker, today announced that it has reached a settlement with K-Line Electric Trains, Inc. in a trade secrets lawsuit brought by Lionel. Under the terms of the settlement, K-Line and the other defendants, Maury Klein and Robert Grubba, admitted that they paid Lionel’s chief engineer to develop advanced versions of Lionel’s operating systems and features that were used in a number of K-Line’s engines and electrical transformers. They further admitted that these products actually contain Lionel’s technology and are currently for sale in the marketplace.

As part of the settlement, K-Line agreed to the entry of a permanent injunction that requires them to stop selling all products that use Lionel’s technology by the end of its 2005 fiscal year, and to pay Lionel a royalty on all of those products sold during that time. Lionel did not insist on the immediate recall of K-Line’s engines and transformers already in the marketplace, as it had requested in its original complaint. In addition to the royalty, K-Line also agreed to reimburse Lionel up to $700,000 for its legal and related costs.

In late July, Lionel filed a complaint in the United States Bankruptcy Court for the Southern District of New York against K-Line, its owner Maury Klein and Robert Grubba, a former Lionel employee now working for K-Line. The 105-year-old model train maker claimed that the defendants had enlisted Marty Pierson, then Lionel’s employee and chief engineer, to work surreptitiously with K-Line, and incorporate Lionel’s current sound, speed control and electrical transformers into some of the K-Line products. The complaint alleged trade secrets, copyright infringement and tortious interference with contract claims.

“We’re very pleased with what happened today. This outcome makes it clear that we will not tolerate the kinds of behavior that forced us to take this action,” said Jerry Calabrese, Lionel’s CEO. “That said, we’re happy we could spare the model train business a protracted legal action and get on with our real business of making trains.”

Calabrese added, “We did not insist on our original request for a recall of K-Line’s products already in the market because we were concerned that doing so could have caused a hardship for retailers so close to the critical Christmas selling season. More important, this action wasn’t about money. It was about making clear to the world that K-Line’s new and sophisticated technical features were really the property of Lionel.”

Under the terms of the settlement, K-Line agreed to a permanent injunction on the use of Lionel's technology, and renounced any claims to the improperly acquired Lionel intellectual property. Finally, Klein and Grubba agreed to be jointly and severally liable for the money damages awarded to Lionel.

Lionel L.L.C. is one of the world’s leading marketers of model trains and accessories. Established in 1900, the Lionel name is the most widely recognized brand in the toy train industry and one of the most recognized brands in America. Lionel has been at the center of every major innovation in toy train manufacturing and marketing since its inception

You can have a steam train ...If you'd just lay down your tracks.

"Lacking above is also Bob G's involvement in the Lionel vs. MDK K-Line speed control and transformer trade secret lawsuit that eventually led to the demise of MDK-K-Line."

Bob was chief of engineering at K-Line at the time.  He didn't steal any of Lionel's plans (he had been chief of engineering at Lionel).  He hired the Lionel engineer as a consultant designer and that individual was believed to have used Lionel technology for his consulting to K-Line.  Whether Bob Grubba knew about this is moot, since hiring someone who does something wrong is not in and of itself his responsibility.  Lionel's lawsuit against K-Line named their own engineer, but not Grubba if I recall correctly.  Grubba is thus taking the hit on his reputation for the actions of others (designers in Korea and an engineer at Lionel).  Very likely unfair and not reflective of the facts as they were litigated in court.

Back in ‘01 I wanted to join the TCA so I could go to York. I called up a Lionel repair shop and asked if they would sign the application. They said no because they didn’t know me. I did find one person through this forum and then Allan Miller said he would do the second signature. Thanks again Allan! After mailing the forms to Allan and then to the TCA I was on my way to my first York. 

I will never forget the experience. The crowds, the Yellow Hall, my first OGR Forum Meeting (Myron was still the owner at that time). The sights, sounds and smells was like train heaven to me. I can’t always attend but I have made at least half the Yorks since then. 

At one of the Yorks just after that first one I sat next to Tony Lash at the OGR Meeting. I will never forget how he told the Lionel rep why does Lionel charge so much more than MTH for the same locomotive (not the exact words). I was like Holy Cow.

For years it was the same lady on the loud speaker. I wonder if she still does it. 

Phil

TCA Member

NYCHS Member

MTH RR Club

Landsteiner posted:

"Lacking above is also Bob G's involvement in the Lionel vs. MDK K-Line speed control and transformer trade secret lawsuit that eventually led to the demise of MDK-K-Line."

Bob was chief of engineering at K-Line at the time.  He didn't steal any of Lionel's plans (he had been chief of engineering at Lionel).  He hired the Lionel engineer as a consultant designer and that individual was believed to have used Lionel technology for his consulting to K-Line.  Whether Bob Grubba knew about this is moot, since hiring someone who does something wrong is not in and of itself his responsibility.  Lionel's lawsuit against K-Line named their own engineer, but not Grubba if I recall correctly.  Grubba is thus taking the hit on his reputation for the actions of others (designers in Korea and an engineer at Lionel).  Very likely unfair and not reflective of the facts as they were litigated in court.

I don't want to take this YORK Memories thread more off the rails and it's unlikely to change your opinion despite the evidence and Lionel press release above:

"Maury Klein and Robert Grubba, admitted that they paid Lionel’s chief engineer to develop advanced versions of Lionel’s operating systems and features that were used in a number of K-Line’s engines and electrical transformers. They further admitted that these products actually contain Lionel’s technology and are currently for sale in the marketplace."

Does it come down to your view, for example, would the person who: suborns perjury, pays a bribe or pays some other person to take what they have no right to be held harmless or considered not to have participated in the execution of a crime or should the law and society look only at the recipient of the cash?  Complicity or conspiracy to commit a crime or in this intellectual property civil action is still considered a liability.

Enough legal chit-chat-crap.  I hope you have a good York week if you are going, if not, still have a good week.  There's still time to make more wonderful York Train Meet memories for all.

You can have a steam train ...If you'd just lay down your tracks.

"Lionel press release above."  I have no doubt that to avoid proceeding with an expensive lawsuit, Grubba (and Klein) agreed to the stipulations made. The agreement fell apart later.  Whether it was strictly true or not that Grubba and/or Klein knew Pierson was going to use Lionel's intellectual property is an entirely separate issue.  Just as in criminal cases defendants sometimes settle for pleading to a lesser charge even though they are innocent, to avoid even more severe penalties should they go to trial.  Happens regularly.  We just cannot and probably never will know whether Klein and Grubba knew what Pierson was going to do.

In any case, my purpose wasn't to re-litigate the MTH or Lionel lawsuits, but to point out that Bob Grubba has never been found liable by a judge and/or jury nor has he been criminally charged.  This was a negotiated pre-trial settlement that Lionel won.  The presumption of innocence should prevail.  His reputation has taken quite a beating in the third rail O gauge hobby, and I'd say it's mostly hearsay and slander/libel until proven otherwise in a legal proceeding. He's also providing "best in class" models in HO and N in many instances as well. This serves the hobby better than lawsuits, especially lawsuits (you know the ones) that represent pique, jealousy or sore losing more than substance, of which we've had a few.  Thankfully not recently.  In summary, give peace a chance.

Hi All,

Peter, thanks for posting this image of the Forum get-together back in its early days (it may have been the first one), when it was still in the grandstand over the old Yellow Hall. (That's me, second from left in the third row up from the front [I still had some brown hair then].) How young we all look! Nice to see Barbara Saslo and Fred Dole in the photo, too. The Forum was a much more intimate group back then. I'm Forum member no. 76 and there were probably only a few hundred members in those early days. Wow, has it grown!

George, your remembrance of the announcement about Bob Grubba's "ethics in manufacturing seminar" made me laugh anew about that. Anyone at the meet being able to request a PA announcement led to some pretty silly things being broadcast throughout the fairgrounds over the years, but that had to be among the best. And much as much I miss some of that, it's a much more serene York Meet now without them (the nagging about following the floor arrows is probably the worst of today's "official" announcements--and people still walk the wrong way in the halls anyway).

Seeing Neil Young playing with Lionel trains in their white tent outside the east entrance to the Yellow Hall was a treat.

That eerie orange tint on all of MTH's stuff due to the sun shining through their orange tent was a bit weird. I bet they were glad to see that tent go.

I remember Mike Wolf sitting on his stool in the Yellow Hall repeatedly launching a flying disc from one of his new-at-the-time helicopter launching cars; sometimes they'd make it up to the underside of the grandstand, which he really got a charge out of. He was like a little kid playing with his new toy on Christmas morning.

The bandit meets really were pretty fantastic back in the '80s and '90s. I can still remember many of the items I bought out in the parking lots of the various hotels, including the Billy Budd, the Best Western and the Holidome. I guess the Holidome (I never remember what it's called now) is the last O gauge meet left. The Flyer folks, I think, still have theirs over at the West York Reliance firehouse.

My first York Meet was either Fall 1985 or Spring 1986--I was a guest at my first one and I have a 1986 TCA number--and I've been to most York meets since then. My wife, Kathie, and I usually make it part of a long weekend getaway and I remember our daughter as a baby in a stroller being at York; she'll be 29 next month. In years when the ladies couldn't make it, I took the bus down from Long Island or drove down myself a few times. Even did it in one day once, though I'd never do that again!

And though much has changed at York, it's still a fantastic experience and one I look forward to each spring and fall. Though at first I wasn't sure how adding the half-day on Thursday would be, I've come to enjoy the extra time to browse, so I'll miss it as the meet goes back to only Friday and Saturdays.

Keep the York Meet memories flowing.

Chris

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