The exclusive Premier O scale 60' flat cars were never produce in the TRAILER TRAIN schemes for 1960's, 1970's, 1980's era with HTTX and OTTX reporting marks.
Those used to be a more common sight.
The new USA management has to reorganize and have the production plant in China make a run of them in the real, common paint scheme for TRAILER TRAIN.
Andrew
When Mike Wolf's retirement and MTH's closure was announced, I was shocked and heartbroken of the news. Growing up, my first ever MTH train set was the Pennsylvania Steam Turbine Freight Set. This was followed up by the TEXAS and GENERAL 4-4-0s among others. Given the recent announcement, I am concerned about a few things:
1. What will happen to all the replacement parts once the company shuts down?
2. Will there be alternative places to buy or repair your MTH products?
3. Will the remaining MTH products in dealers and hobby stores sell out quickly?
Any feedback or comments would be greatly appreciated.
No one knows but this is a speculative thread so I shall speculate.
1. Certainly, as time goes on, parts won't be as plentiful. If DCS continues, then perhaps DCS parts will still be available new.
2. Since there will be no new products from MTH, then you won't be able to buy anything new unless it's NOS. There are numerous MTH repair techs on this forum and elsewhere so repairs shouldn't be a problem as long as parts are available.
3. Anecdotal evidence suggests that most popular inventory will be gone quickly. I called and spoke with a large MTH dealer (to place an order). He told me that his MTH orders and preorders from 2020 Vol. 2 have been crazy since the closing announcement. Of course, he might just be trying to gin up sales but I tend to believe him.
@MikeH posted:
3. Anecdotal evidence suggests that most popular inventory will be gone quickly. I called and spoke with a large MTH dealer (to place an order). He told me that his MTH orders and preorders from 2020 Vol. 2 have been crazy since the closing announcement. Of course, he might just be trying to gin up sales but I tend to believe him.
Honestly, I find this lemming-like behavior laughable (and sad).
Fifteen, yes fifteen years now K-Line has been gone and their stuff is still around.
George
@G3750 posted:Honestly, I find this lemming-like behavior laughable (and sad).
Fifteen, yes fifteen years now K-Line has been gone and their stuff is still around.
George
Postwar Lionel's been around a lot longer.
Rusty
@G3750 posted:Honestly, I find this lemming-like behavior laughable (and sad).
Fifteen, yes fifteen years now K-Line has been gone and their stuff is still around.
George
What is the lemming behavior, George? Buying MTH after the announcement?
Look at this way: Lo these many years that I've been involved in this hobby (all two of them 
), I have settled on new MTH Premier 18" passenger cars. I like the looks, the size, and I like the price. I only buy new MTH because I want LED lights and don't feel like converting old ones.
As of last month, I was looking forward to acquiring some MTH sets over the next few decades.
Then this announcement happened. I thought it it might be a good time to order/pre-order some sets. I bought 5 sets.
Am I lemming? Or am I just getting while the getting's good? You be the judge. Nothing really to laugh or be sad about though.
I'm sure that MTH products will be floating around on the secondary market for years to come. I'm also sure I won't be in the market because I will already have what I want. 
@MikeH posted:What is the lemming behavior, George? Buying MTH after the announcement?
Look at this way: Lo these many years that I've been involved in this hobby (all two of them
As of last month, I was looking forward to acquiring some MTH sets over the next few decades.
Then this announcement happened. I thought it it might be a good time to order/pre-order some sets. I bought 5 sets.
Am I lemming? Or am I just getting while the getting's good? You be the judge. Nothing really to laugh or be sad about though.
I'm sure that MTH products will be floating around on the secondary market for years to come. I'm also sure I won't be in the market because I will already have what I want.
Mike:
Great choice. While most of my train collection is Lionel, I really like the MTH passenger cars. I have a couple of their streamlined sets on the layout right now and plan to purchase a heavyweight set or two as well.
Pat
@onetrackmind posted:When Mike Wolf's retirement and MTH's closure was announced, I was shocked and heartbroken of the news. Growing up, my first ever MTH train set was the Pennsylvania Steam Turbine Freight Set. This was followed up by the TEXAS and GENERAL 4-4-0s among others. Given the recent announcement, I am concerned about a few things:
1. What will happen to all the replacement parts once the company shuts down?
2. Will there be alternative places to buy or repair your MTH products?
3. Will the remaining MTH products in dealers and hobby stores sell out quickly?
Any feedback or comments would be greatly appreciated.
All 3 are good questions. Unless somebody steps up and buys the company I doubt that parts will be available for more than 5 years.
2. There are guys on this forum that repair MTH trains as long as parts are available.
3. Seems like there is a lot of panic buying.
Everybody that's worried just settle down and relax. No body knows how this will play out.
@feet posted:All 3 are good questions. Unless somebody steps up and buys the company I doubt that parts will be available for more than 5 years.
2. There are guys on this forum that repair MTH trains as long as parts are available.
3. Seems like there is a lot of panic buying.
Everybody that's worried just settle down and relax. No body knows how this will play out.
Thank you for the reply. I hope to hear more good news.
@onetrackmind posted:When Mike Wolf's retirement and MTH's closure was announced, I was shocked and heartbroken of the news. Growing up, my first ever MTH train set was the Pennsylvania Steam Turbine Freight Set. This was followed up by the TEXAS and GENERAL 4-4-0s among others. Given the recent announcement, I am concerned about a few things:
1. What will happen to all the replacement parts once the company shuts down?
2. Will there be alternative places to buy or repair your MTH products?
3. Will the remaining MTH products in dealers and hobby stores sell out quickly?
Any feedback or comments would be greatly appreciated.
O Gauge train stuff on EBay provides a useful glimpse at the real time market for buying and selling used trains. As an EBay buyer (and infrequent seller) over for a long time, I have not seen an uptick or fire sales on MTH products. The quantities and prices are still stable. Rarer, items, however, might be harder to find or bid higher because train guys might fear that they will never be available again from MTH. I, too, still watch for K-Line stuff and those prices remain steady and the availability is still there. So no need to worry or panic.
I am purchasing more new MTH stuff now from hobby shops because I, too, want to make sure I get those before they may not be available factory new.
Must say that this thread has more legs than a bus full of millipedes.
Sooner than expected, controlling trains may come down to RC and batteries in the tenders and B units!
@redjimmy1955 posted:Sooner than expected, controlling trains may come down to RC and batteries in the tenders and B units!
That day can't come soon enough IMO. Long overdue.
I immediately ordered four sets of traction tires for my USRA 0-8-0! I keep tightly close is a plastic bag out of light!
@MikeH posted:That day can't come soon enough IMO. Long overdue.
I have been hearing this for nearly 20 years now. It hasn’t happened. There’s nothing inevitable about it.
@Jim R. posted:I have been hearing this for nearly 20 years now. It hasn’t happened. There’s nothing inevitable about it.
I missed where I predicted its inevitability but thanks for setting me straight! 
@MikeH posted:I missed where I predicted its inevitability but thanks for setting me straight!
Not necessarily against it. I just doubt it will ever happen in O gauge. I’m surprised it’s not the standard in garden railways.
@G3750 posted:Honestly, I find this lemming-like behavior laughable (and sad).
Fifteen, yes fifteen years now K-Line has been gone and their stuff is still around.
George
K-line stuff may still be around, but good luck finding that specific items you wanted from the last two years of production in New in Box condition.
If Mike's announcement was causing people who had no plans to buy MTH products to run out and order piles of them, then I would agree with your assessment. That isn't what I see happening though. Instead what I see is people who would already be in the market for MTH products engaged in thoughtful consideration whether to carry through with their original plans, accelerate them or scale them back.
Another thing that I'm concerned about is when the company is gone, can the MTH products last a while to run.
Did Mr. Mike ever offer MTH for sale and if so what was the asking price? I will have to look at the bank account.
@John Pignatelli JR. posted:Did Mr. Mike ever offer MTH for sale and if so what was the asking price? I will have to look at the bank account.
It's been reported from several sources that Mike Wolf has been shopping around the company for about a year.
As far as the asking price, only Mike and any potentially interested party knows that, they are not talking and it's unlikely they will.
In other words: It's none of our business.
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:It's been reported from several sources that Mike Wolf has been shopping around the company for about a year.
As far as the asking price, only Mike and any potentially interested party knows that, they are not talking and it's unlikely they will.
In other words: It's none of our business.
Rusty
It could be your business for the right price. But then again, you don't exactly advertise this on Craigs List "Hobby Train manufacturer for sale, asking $XXXXXXXX"
Buying a business like this and of this size is not first without agreeing to some form of a Non-Disclosure agreement beforehand so that non-interested parties or failed negotiations aren't used to devalue a future sale.
@Bill N posted:K-line stuff may still be around, but good luck finding that specific items you wanted from the last two years of production in New in Box condition.
If Mike's announcement was causing people who had no plans to buy MTH products to run out and order piles of them, then I would agree with your assessment. That isn't what I see happening though. Instead what I see is people who would already be in the market for MTH products engaged in thoughtful consideration whether to carry through with their original plans, accelerate them or scale them back.
It really hit me hard seeing MTH will cease operations, at least as the business is configured today. All my Engines are MTH and I finally purchased the full DCS system with remote around 3 years ago. I will always have great appreciation for MTH and what they have contributed. That being said I have been jealous of all the members who had both MTH and Lionel control systems. As far as my wife knows MTH is closed as of today and there will be no DCS support going forward so I have no choice but to put the new refrigerator on hold and buy Lionel. ☺️
@onetrackmind posted:Another thing that I'm concerned about is when the company is gone, can the MTH products last a while to run.
Here or gone, makes no difference as to their products lasting to operate.
@Lionelski posted:Here or gone, makes no difference as to their products lasting to operate.
Thank you for your reassurance, I will continue to cherish both my MTH and Lionel Trains.
....or just maybe there's another plan in the works?
Scott Smith
Let's start a Go Fund Me for OGR forum members. We can be the new owners. 
@scott.smith posted:....or just maybe there's another plan in the works?
Scott Smith
Maybe Scott told his wife he was making just ONE MORE train purchase, and she jumped at the thought and gave him the OK.
Scott, when will you break the news the purchase was MTH itself?
Just kidding of course, not really trying to suggest Scott would buy MTH (the company, that is - we all know he certainly has bought one or 2 MTH trains over the years )
-Dave
@Dave45681 posted:Maybe Scott told his wife he was making just ONE MORE train purchase, and she jumped at the thought and gave him the OK.
Scott, when will you break the news the purchase was MTH itself?
Just kidding of course, not really trying to suggest Scott would buy MTH (the company, that is - we all know he certainly has bought one or 2 MTH trains over the years
-Dave
Yes, I have over 100. I would love to have the money to buy MTH; not that I would buy them, just the money to buy them. Actually I wouldn't mind owning the company, but the thought of spending the amount that Mike Wolf spent in China to supervise is a deal breaker.
Scott Smith
And Scott , where would you hide all those boxes?
Brad
@scott.smith posted:....or just maybe there's another plan in the works?
Scott Smith
Ahh nothing like a little innuendo to fan the flames.
Maybe the July 15th Lionel catalog will have some new and special "MTH Corporation" products? 
@Landsteiner posted:Maybe the July 15th Lionel catalog will have some new and special "MTH Corporation" products?
Now you're just being silly.
Just talked to someone in the service department at MTH yesterday. No new public news.
@jhz563 posted:Just talked to someone in the service department at MTH yesterday. No new public news.
Even if they knew, they ain't talking. And if they are, shame on them. Any potential leak could jeopardize a deal in the making.
@MartyE posted:Even if they knew, they ain't talking. And if they are, shame on them. Any potential leak could jeopardize a deal in the making.
But is there any evidence that some kind of deal is in the works? All we have is Mike Wolf's statement and it seems pretty definitive: Next year, MTH will be closed down and will not exist anymore. Anything else appears to be just imagination and wishful thinking.
@Madockawando posted:But is there any evidence that some kind of deal is in the works? All we have is Mike Wolf's statement and it seems pretty definitive: Next year, MTH will be closed down and will not exist anymore. Anything else appears to be just imagination and wishful thinking.
Maybe I should have said any possible deal in the works but frankly until MTH or other entity involved announces something it's really none of our business.
If I were MTH, I would want to keep things as quiet as possible without releasing any evidence of a deal whatsoever; only leadership would know about a possible deal, and even then, only a very few critical individuals.
If there's any hint of new "news," the only hint I've seen is Trainworld's announcement that MTH will be going first in their July 16 virtual train show on Facebook. The fact that they're going first is obvious--this is the big story, and it stands to reason that this topic of "new news" will be discussed. How much MTH can talk about the future beyond what they've already said is the big unknown--perhaps even to MTH leadership as of right now.
Since there is already a team that will continue DCS I’m sure there is a contract. With that being the case, I can’t believe anyone would buy MTH without also getting DCS.
Where's Clyde Coil when you need him to get the inside scoop?
@scott.smith posted:Where's Clyde Coil when you need him to get the inside scoop?
That's a name I haven't heard in a long time!
@scott.smith posted:Where's Clyde Coil when you need him to get the inside scoop?
I thought Clyde Coyle was Neil Young - am a correct?
If so, why would he have an inside scoop on what is happening at MTH?
@Lionelski posted:I thought Clyde Coyle was Neil Young - am a correct?
If so, why would he have an inside scoop on what is happening at MTH?
He was always stirring the pot when it came to MTH. He even said that DCS was doomed because of the blue flame.
Scott Smith
@romiller49 posted:Since there is already a team that will continue DCS I’m sure there is a contract. With that being the case, I can’t believe anyone would buy MTH without also getting DCS.
There have been numerous corporate splits where the parent entity retains a free and perpetual license to use the technology that a subsidiary now owns.
@scott.smith posted:He was always stirring the pot when it came to MTH. He even said that DCS was doomed because of the blue flame.
As it turns out, we didn't need the blue flame to kill it.
@scott.smith posted:Where's Clyde Coil when you need him to get the inside scoop?
@Lionelski posted:I thought Clyde Coyle was Neil Young - am a correct?
If so, why would he have an inside scoop on what is happening at MTH?
@scott.smith posted:He was always stirring the pot when it came to MTH. He even said that DCS was doomed because of the blue flame
Tony Lash was the inside source to MTH info. Although the Clyde Coyle website and videos appeared to be Neil Young or related party, was it ever confirmed? It's been so long since the Lionel bankruptcy proceedings and how minority shareholders were dealt with; IIRC NY's Liontech reached a buyout settlement. Despite any real or perceived rift, annoyance, commentary against MTH or whatever you want to call it by the Clyde Coyle persona, it would be interesting and possibly exciting to see Neil Young with an active ownership role in an O and Standard gauge model train company.
Playing in the background I think I hear the song "Old Man"
Dang Hoss!
I think Neil Young sold off all of his Lionel collection. Don't even know if he's still interested in the hobby.
I would like to see tinplate with Legacy installed
For those wondering about the obscure recent posts, Clyde Coil and the Coilcouplers website were active on the old AOL discussion boards prior to the start of the OGR Forum. Whether Clyde was or sometimes was Neil Young will remain a mystery to most. The website, while inactive, is still up. Clyde enjoyed communicating with folksy expressions such as those mentioned above.
The reason this is all relevant to Mike Wolf's retirement and MTH is that there was a fair amount of competitive friction between Lionel and MTH during the 1994-2010 or so period, give or take. From what I hear, Neil Young never took it personally and had a perfectly civil relationship with Mike Wolf. Maybe the last bigo lawsuit from 20 years ago changed that. I am aware of no information whether Neil still has an ownership interest in Lionel.
Neil Young is probably one of the few hobbyists who could buy MTH, but I doubt that will be happening, although that's just a guess. I wouldn't be surprised if Mike Wolf consulted Young at some point on the issues of selling and retirement, but from what I read in the media, Neil is occupied with other things, and after all, is in his mid-70s. Not when most of us want to wager tens of millions of dollars on a new enterprise. It has long been known that Neil's original involvement with Lionel and Liontech (a partnership that developed TMCC and later developments related to TMCC) was driven in part by his interest in developing a simple system easy for his sons to operate. I don't think DCS would meet those needs if they still are relevant. TMCC seemed to do the desired job. Long may Neil run. He certainly provided lots of good will and entertainment when he was a regular York attendee. Nothing stays the same forever.
Just think about it, dealers won’t be able to survive on Lionel alone. We O scalers took a big hit when Weaver closed up.
@onetrackmind posted:When Mike Wolf's retirement and MTH's closure was announced, I was shocked and heartbroken of the news. Growing up, my first ever MTH train set was the Pennsylvania Steam Turbine Freight Set. This was followed up by the TEXAS and GENERAL 4-4-0s among others. Given the recent announcement, I am concerned about a few things:
1. What will happen to all the replacement parts once the company shuts down?
2. Will there be alternative places to buy or repair your MTH products?
3. Will the remaining MTH products in dealers and hobby stores sell out quickly?
Any feedback or comments would be greatly appreciated.
All of your and mine expensive proto2 and proto3 locos get gutted of electronics and turned into dummies. Ebay , here we come!
@Landsteiner posted:For those wondering about the obscure recent posts, Clyde Coil and the Coilcouplers website were active on the old AOL discussion boards prior to the start of the OGR Forum. Whether Clyde was or sometimes was Neil Young will remain a mystery to most. The website, while inactive, is still up. Clyde enjoyed communicating with folksy expressions such as those mentioned above.
The reason this is all relevant to Mike Wolf's retirement and MTH is that there was a fair amount of competitive friction between Lionel and MTH during the 1994-2010 or so period, give or take. From what I hear, Neil Young never took it personally and had a perfectly civil relationship with Mike Wolf. Maybe the last bigo lawsuit from 20 years ago changed that. I am aware of no information whether Neil still has an ownership interest in Lionel.
Neil Young is probably one of the few hobbyists who could buy MTH, but I doubt that will be happening, although that's just a guess. I wouldn't be surprised if Mike Wolf consulted Young at some point on the issues of selling and retirement, but from what I read in the media, Neil is occupied with other things, and after all, is in his mid-70s. Not when most of us want to wager tens of millions of dollars on a new enterprise. It has long been known that Neil's original involvement with Lionel and Liontech (a partnership that developed TMCC and later developments related to TMCC) was driven in part by his interest in developing a simple system easy for his sons to operate. I don't think DCS would meet those needs if they still are relevant. TMCC seemed to do the desired job. Long may Neil run. He certainly provided lots of good will and entertainment when he was a regular York attendee. Nothing stays the same forever.
"Long may you run.
Although these changes
have come"
Long may MTH run... I'm not ready to throw in the towel. MTH E8's just arrived at you local hobby shops, waiting for the passenger cars to match. Just got my CNW F3 and am enjoying it. Built a bridge today. Our hobby lives on...
Perhaps my new MTH trains are crossing over the river of Denial. Perhaps MTH employees are getting ready to make an announcement. Who knows?
I'm sure Railking/MTH tooling will live on in some way shape or form. If not as one company maybe spread out through the industry.
The big question is if whoever acquires the tooling will continue to use the DCS platform or go with something else.
@IRON HORSE posted:
Perhaps my new MTH trains are crossing over the river of Denial.
No denial for me. I placed my first order with 3rd rail/ Sunset, albeit hoping for a second run of F3s.
@Landsteiner posted:For those wondering about the obscure recent posts, Clyde Coil and the Coilcouplers website were active on the old AOL discussion boards prior to the start of the OGR Forum. Whether Clyde was or sometimes was Neil Young will remain a mystery to most. The website, while inactive, is still up. Clyde enjoyed communicating with folksy expressions such as those mentioned above.
I am aware of no information whether Neil still has an ownership interest in Lionel.
Neil Young is probably one of the few hobbyists who could buy MTH, but I doubt that will be happening, although that's just a guess. I wouldn't be surprised if Mike Wolf consulted Young at some point on the issues of selling and retirement, but from what I read in the media, Neil is occupied with other things, and after all, is in his mid-70s. Not when most of us want to wager tens of millions of dollars on a new enterprise. It has long been known that Neil's original involvement with Lionel and Liontech (a partnership that developed TMCC and later developments related to TMCC) was driven in part by his interest in developing a simple system easy for his sons to operate. I don't think DCS would meet those needs if they still are relevant. TMCC seemed to do the desired job. Long may Neil run. He certainly provided lots of good will and entertainment when he was a regular York attendee. Nothing stays the same forever.
Generally there seemed to be a 99% concensus that Neil Young was Clyde. Darn tootin'. There are conflicting reports about the extent of Young's continued financial interest in Lionel. Evidence seems to lean toward close relations (see Neil Young sets) but that his financial interest was terminated sometime during the transition of ownership to Guggenheim, although there are still some references to part ownership that can be found. It would seem more probable that he sold all his interest, but no one (at least anyone who would know) has talked about it, that I'm aware of.
He was instrumental in developing a command control system for Lionel trains to make it easier for his son Ben, who has cerebral palsy, to operate the trains. His son Zeke has cerebral palsy as well. His daughter, Amber, has epilepsy. Been a tough road, no doubt about it. Given Neil's age (getting older, like the rest of us), it seems he's been simplifying his life with trains a bit, and moving ahead with other interests. He's been selling off at least some of his collection of Lionel items. The chance that he would have any interest at this point in biting off ownership of MTH seems as remote as anything I can think of.
Just my opinion, for what little it's worth. I'm a huge NY fan. Lots of music memorys going back 50 years. Interesting guy, curious in some ways, but then, he's an artist. Certainly an active mind, and interested in a wide range of things. Looking forward to hearing lots more from him in the future.
@Oman posted:No denial for me. I placed my first order with 3rd rail/ Sunset, albeit hoping for a second run of F3s.
Actually the current run of F3 from 3rdrail is the second run.
@superwarp1 posted:Actually the current run of F3 from 3rdrail is the second run.
Did not know that. Maybe there will be a 3rd run because of people like me; that is no MTH and Lionel issues.
"dealers won’t be able to survive on Lionel alone."
What evidence do you have that is the case? Most train dealers I know are primarily Lionel dealers and only secondarily MTH dealers. And they mostly sell HO and N scale in terms of dollar volume.
@NYC 428 posted:I think Neil Young sold off all of his Lionel collection. Don't even know if he's still interested in the hobby.
I would like to see tinplate with Legacy installed
I think I caught a glimpse of him at York in October 2018 or April 2019, which was after the auction of his collection of prototypes, so maybe he's still interested. However, he is not currently listed as a TCA member.
looks like MTH's policy's on repairs have changed to reflect them closing. called yesterday afternoon to get a feel for the price of getting one of my HO G's repaired. MTH is not taking "billable" repairs now. IE if you don't have a valid warranty they wont take it in. they were helpful in referring me to ASC's but id rather just swap the board with a ESU decoder myself.
basically MTH's CSR said that they are not taking anything not under warranty. with the exception of TIUs, Remote's, and Z4000s
@Landsteiner posted:"dealers won’t be able to survive on Lionel alone."
What evidence do you have that is the case? Most train dealers I know are primarily Lionel dealers and only secondarily MTH dealers. And they mostly sell HO and N scale in terms of dollar volume.
That’s an interesting perspective you have. Where do you live? In the Cleveland, OH area we have lost most shops over the last decade. The only shops worth visiting within a 2 hour drive are Stockyard Express and Mercer Junction. Both of them are almost exclusively MTH. We don’t even have a good option for HO or N. Just a couple of small shops. I concur with the OP that this will have a big impact. As a 2R modeler I was never happy with MTH and their multi faceted way they did Porto 3/2. Having said that, at least they were making products. Lionel doesn’t seem to care about developing 2R engines, Weaver is gone, Atlas is on life support, now MTH. New RTR products are going to be down to 3rd Rail and converting Lionel rolling stock.
I was driven out of S scale by the lack of products, I wonder if O scale will be much of the same. Meanwhile HO just keeps getting better and better...
"Where do you live?" Western NY state.
I'm working on the basis of personal experience and what I know of large national dealers like Charles Ro, ads in CTT and OGR. The bigger dealers are primarily Lionel and carry MTH as a second line. Stockyard Express and Mercer Junction are probably much smaller than the dealers I'm thinking of locally and nationally. And there is no question but that the dollar value of the HO and N gauge markets is many times that of the 3 rail O gauge market. The 2 rail O gauge (and S gauge) markets are a fraction of the 3 rail market in dollar value as far as I've read and heard about. I think the loss of MTH will primarily affect 3 rail O gauge, and primarily shops like those you mentioned.
I too will be curious as to what Dave does at Mercer. His store is primarily MTH but he does have some Lionel and I believe will order anything in you want. Dave's store is pretty awesome. I hope he's able to adjust to the loss of MTH if it truly does go away.
@Landsteiner posted:"dealers won’t be able to survive on Lionel alone."
What evidence do you have that is the case? Most train dealers I know are primarily Lionel dealers and only secondarily MTH dealers. And they mostly sell HO and N scale in terms of dollar volume.
Interesting! You must live in LIONEL LAND! Most of the shops in my area or the big ones I deal with on the internet are mostly MTH. I am not say there are not mostly all Lionel Shops (Rio comes to mind) but I am not near RIO or those shops. The shops that carry MTH and Lionel are definitely going to take a hit. I can not say they will or will not survive but if they are selling more than LIONEL now it must mean: 1. there is a demand for non Lionel products and 2.they are making money from other than Lionel products because they could not survive in the area they are in without selling more than Lionel. Not everyone bleeds Lionel. When you say trucks do you think only MACK as they are the ones who were there in the beginning. Do you say Snap on for tools? I am just making a point. Other people like other products. I personally feel Lionel is a great product. Their sound files are the best. BUT MTH definitively has the best operating system. I can run all makes with 99% of all functions. I can not with Lionel Legacy but yet I am still spending BIG money. Lionel Products are high priced. They know it and just today released a catalog with starter kits that have dropped in price along with some of their stand alone items. But compare Legacy and Premier. I as one who is retired and on a limited budget can NOT afford the high cost of Lionel for the product when MTH was not only cheaper but color correct and had as good or better detailing. AND YES I am sure everyone will have a comment. But as I said, MACK SNAP ON and what we have will always dictate what people deem as good or best Hence Ford and Chevy! You have your opinion but it does not mean mine or others are wrong. EVERYONE NEEDS TO BE HAPPY! Buy what you want and run what you want just PROMOTE and ENJOY the HOBBY!
If Ford went out of business, would loyal Ford owners stop buying cars?
@Mallard4468 posted:If Ford went out of business, would loyal Ford owners stop buying cars?
LOL I actually know a person who will not buy another vehicle because Plymouth is not made anymore. For what they have spent to keep their Plymouth running they could have bought a Rolls Royce!
Charles Ro does carry more Lionel than MTH, but TrainWorld, the other huge east coast dealer, carries about equal Lionel and MTH.
It's hard to imagine the hobby without MTH products...its not an exaggeration to state that the variety of their trains and accessories has been tremendous.
Nicholas Smith and Mr. Muffin appear to be pretty large volume of both Lionel/MTH products combined as well. They, along with the ones mentioned above, are the main guys I look for when my LHS doesn't have what I need.
MTH might surprise a lot of people by still being around when Mike Wolf is kicking back with a beer in 1 hand and his DCS in the other and his retirement account smiling with him a year from now. I am told by my LHS his employees have been pretty much running the company, anyway, for the past two years . I'm doubling down on MTH, as i continue to buy their stuff. Their products are too nice to disappear completely.
I would suggest that model train stores are not just about Lionel and MTH. HO and N (and even large scale and Z) are the main market in model trains when taken in total. Substantially larger than three rail O gauge, particularly high end models. Lionel's set sales occur in a variety of locations and are significant proportion of sales. Train stores that only deal in O gauge three rail are a minority of stores I'd venture a guess. Even Ro and Trainworld, etc. carry other gauges. Thus the impact of MTH's possible disappearance is in part going to be mitigated by realities other than the relative proportion of Lionel and MTH sales in my or anyone else's geographic area. Reports of the total model railroading market have always suggested that HO dwarfs everything else in dollar volume.
If MTH ends up out of business, manufactures like Lionel, Atlas and 3rd Rail will still be around to fill the void. Just think, the volume of trains that MTH sold will now be absorbed by the remaining manufactures.
There will be no shortage of O scale, just look at the latest Lionel catalog.
I also think that if any part of MTH survives, it will be Railking along with DCS.
But DCS can't survive on its own without a sustainable conduit for its product, so it needs Railking or some other derivative of MTH.
Dealers will have plenty to sell between O, HO, N, G and Z.
@Landsteiner posted:"Where do you live?" Western NY state.
Me too! I live in WNY.
@Mallard4468 posted:If Ford went out of business, would loyal Ford owners stop buying cars?
LOL I actually know a person who will not buy another vehicle because Plymouth is not made anymore. For what they have spent to keep their Plymouth running they could have bought a Rolls Royce!
(....which would have cost him more every day than any Plymouth could have....)
But, anyway - no, if Ford were to go, those people would still but cars, but probably fewer of them. For car guys, cars are not interchangeable - and second choice is just that. Part of the problems with a monopoly (a Single Big Gorilla has some of the aspects of a monopoly, even if it isn't actually one) is a less dynamic marketplace, therefore less interest, therefore fewer purchases, therefore less product variety....
Weaver's and K-Line's exit has affected my general level of interest in this hobby, and certainly my purchasing. It - the 3RO field - is far less dynamic than it once was. This is inevitable, but the loss of MTH probably will be remembered as the tipping point, when the Critical Mass of this 3RO hobby was lost. We won't feel it for a while. This whole model train thing is more marginal in the US than most other real countries, anyway (assuming that the US qualifies as a "real country").
@D500 posted:This whole model train thing is more marginal in the US than most other real countries, anyway (assuming that the US qualifies as a "real country").
Planning on a move to one of those "real countries" any time soon? We wouldn't want to keep you against your will...
"This whole model train thing is more marginal in the US than most other real countries, anyway (assuming that the US qualifies as a "real country")."
This means what?
WNY = West New York is also the name of a town in New Jersey, just north of the Lincoln Tunnel.
I think this topic is drifting.... BTW, Mike Wolf is retiring
@SIRT posted:
Still tawken about me?
Wow, 23 pages!
Yes you!!
Watched some of the Trainland Virtual Train Meet. Andy didn’t seem like he would be carrying on at MTH. I got the impression he will be done with the business side when MTH closes next year. I always enjoyed talking to Andy at York. I wish him well.
OK guys....keep this on topic or we will close the thread and not allow another one like it to start. Your vacations, and vehicle discussions, etc. were deleted. Looks like some of you just don't get it...as we have warned some of the same people over and over to stay on topic and quit posting unrelated material contrary to the thread and the purpose of this forum.....so....if you are going to do this know that the mods have been instructed to delete your membership account.
As I have posted, back a few years ago, (at an online estate auction) I bought an MTH Proto 1 Commodore Vanderbilt. It was (then) some 20+ years old, but new in the box. I of course had no idea that it suffered from the dreaded zinc pest, only to find that the drive wheels were falling apart. A replacement chassis was the only "fix" but was no where to be found, from MTH parts or anywhere else.
I wrote a letter to Mike Wolf, saying that I expected no warranty or other consideration- but asking him if he could help find a replacement chassis to buy. Five days later, a new chassis showed up, no cost. I was shocked and pleased that such personal care was still there in the business. When I met him at York to thank him again personally, he seemed to have no recollection of my situation, so maybe one of his employees handled it. But still, the character and culture of a company, big or small, in a huge industry or a small one, comes from the top.
Not only was MTH and Mike Wolf good for the industry, he was a good guy from my perspective. I wish him the best.
I buy a lot of trains from Ready to Roll in Miami. The owner, Bill Lucas, is a great guy and a long time MTH dealer. Mike Wolf owns a home in south Florida and visits Ready to Roll from time to time, usually on Saturdays where I’ve met him several times. One Saturday several years ago I went to the store with a broken DCS remote hoping that Bill could fix or replace. Mike Wolf happened to be there this day and asked me what happened to my remote. He was familiar with the problem and proceeded to disassemble the remote and fix it right at the counter before my eyes! Needless to say, I was amazed and impressed. Mike is a true “train guy” who has made enormous contributions to this hobby. He will be greatly missed.
Who knows, maybe Mike will have to take a part time job there to supplement his Social Security and fix trains. 
Pete
@MartyE posted:Watched some of the Trainland Virtual Train Meet. Andy didn’t seem like he would be carrying on at MTH. I got the impression he will be done with the business side when MTH closes next year. I always enjoyed talking to Andy at York. I wish him well.
He sounded very noncommittal to me, possibly leaning toward him not carrying on. For MTH to continue successfully, it will need to have a passionate train person at the helm. I don't know Andy - is he a true "train nut"?
Speculating that he's a) done pretty well financially and b) he's a contemporary of Mike Wolf, I'd guess that he wouldn't want to bet his own retirement money on the future success of MTH. I know that I wouldn't do it.
@Mallard4468 posted:........ For MTH to continue successfully, it will need to have a passionate train person at the helm. ,,,,,,,
In my opinion, it would be better to have someone experienced in running a business of this size [ preferably successfully ! ]; experience with the Chinese, or access to a "China hand", would be a big plus. If he [ OK, or she....] is a train person, which would be another plus, they will have to let the business side of the brain over ride the passion side.
Remember, Mike W. got his BS in Toy Train Mfg at Jerry Williams U, and Lionel paid for his Master's........
Best regards, SZ
With all of the brick and mortor hobby shops closing across the country, perhaps this might be in good timing. The O gauge market is pretty saturated with fewer new younger modelers entering the hobby and longtime enthusiasts passing on. We now have more O gauge trains to choose from then ever beforehand.
If MTH were to be reconstituted as a publicly-owned company, I'm prepared to buy stock whether or not it produces earnings for me. I would consider my investment to be a contribution to supporting the hobby - and it might result in some equipment I would buy in the future.
MELGAR
Nikhil, I'm sorry to say this, but all the "feel good" the anecdotal evidence in your post means nothing. It all comes down to numbers.
For a potential buyer, this deal is like any other business deal. There is an asking price, a business valuation, a few years of financial statements, perhaps a pro-forma statement looking forward a few years, and other pertinent information about the business. A buyer will look at the numbers and make a judgement about whether there's an opportunity here.
The numbers have to work. But the numbers may not work for a lot of reasons:
The bottom line? If the numbers don't work, there is no viable business here. Given that Mike is preparing to turn out the lights and lock the doors, it would appear that the numbers have not worked for any potential buyer so far.
A disclaimer: I'm not privy to any "inside" information here. I'm just trying to make the point that this deal is no different from any other business deal. If the numbers don't work, there won't be a deal. It really is that simple. It has nothing to do with how "iconic" certain MTH products might be.
Nikhil, I don’t think you are aware of the nuances of a publicly owned company.
In such companies, stock holders demand a strong return on their investments, and demand that the stock price increases steadily. Sometimes, they also expect a quarterly dividend.
If a company fails to meet those conditions and the stock price tumbles, the company is overhauled and eventually lost.
Sorry, but based on market conditions, MTH is hardly an attractive company for an IPO.
And since no buyer has emerged yet while MTH continues to liquidate its stock, I’m losing faith that it will continue as a privately held company as well.
Should we worry that our MTH products would soon be worn out and irreparable once the company closes its doors?
I'm stocking up!
😎
@onetrackmind posted:Should we worry that our MTH products would soon be worn out and irreparable once the company closes its doors?
Nope! With so many locos out there, Somehow. Somewhere someone will have replacement parts.
I met him one time at York. I was very impressed with him.
He gave us great products at a fair price. His innovations and competition in the market was sorely needed.
He has earned his retirement and I wish him well.
It's a shame that our hobby isn't as large and profitable as we think it is.
@onetrackmind posted:Should we worry that our MTH products would soon be worn out and irreparable once the company closes its doors?
Based on my ownership of MTH trains, they are delivered in good shape and generally run for a long time before they may need to be repaired. But their closure will result in my cutting back my train purchases. Parts are more of a concern for me.
MELGAR
The engines themselves I think are less worrisome.... It's all the other stuff... TIUs, Remotes, WIUs, Z4000s, and support of the WiFi app that's going to suck if it goes away. You always drop a remote eventually. In a club environment, you need a steady stream of all this stuff to keep the place running. You have accidents, roof leaks, lightening strikes, the utility company putting 600V where the 110V goes (yes this happened at AGHR).... you name it. If you can't replace what breaks, it won't last long as a running layout.
That's one reason why I've stuck with conventional operation. My Z4000s have been in operation for twenty years without problems. Steam engine tethers and traction tires may be another story.
MELGAR (Ph.D.)
@Rich Melvin posted:Nikhil, I'm sorry to say this, but all the "feel good" the anecdotal evidence in your post means nothing. It all comes down to numbers.
For a potential buyer, this deal is like any other business deal. There is an asking price, a business valuation, a few years of financial statements, perhaps a pro-forma statement looking forward a few years, and other pertinent information about the business. A buyer will look at the numbers and make a judgement about whether there's an opportunity here.
The numbers have to work. But the numbers may not work for a lot of reasons:
- Asking price too high?
- Business valuation too high?
- Do the financials show declining revenue over the last few years?
- Production logistic issues = high costs?
- Personnel issues?
- Licensing issues?
The bottom line? If the numbers don't work, there is no viable business here. Given that Mike is preparing to turn out the lights and lock the doors, it would appear that the numbers have not worked for any potential buyer so far.
A disclaimer: I'm not privy to any "inside" information here. I'm just trying to make the point that this deal is no different from any other business deal. If the numbers don't work, there won't be a deal. It really is that simple. It has nothing to do with how "iconic" certain MTH products might be.
Agree! The real question is the value of any assets! Or, whats left after the real estate is sold off. Lionel, has a control system and is already producing engines and boxcars, etc. Bachmann is doing their thing. So, bascially in comes down to a couple of accessories no one else produced. Plus, a control system that at times could be like Morris the cat - In my experience.
IMHO, the game is over! Eventually, some things may be bought up! But, at a cost that is pennies.
Just run the heck out of them. If in the future a loco dies and can't be repaired make a unpowered unit out of it. I have MTH locos going all the way back to the very early PS-1 era, have not had to replace the electronics or convert to unpowered yet.
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