MTH 2 rail steam.

I just recently repaired a 2R MTH PS-3 J.  Attached some photos.  The primary culprit here was an improperly formed connector at the engine drawbar connection that allowed the wire to come up and out.  In this case the drawbar data wire that will definitely give you issues.  I also hard wired this for 2R operation. Simple reversible process.  Adding ground wire to engine that goes across what would be the 3rd rail pickup wire (not used in 2 rail) and making that wire go to chassis ground in the tender.

The plungers where all good with 0 resistance reading and this engine has solid axle pickups on tender and engine for right wheels.  G

I just can't help but wonder why MTH chose not to put a capacitor on the motor side like they do in HO. The MTH HO steam engines perform flawlessly over dirty track and dead frogs whereas cheaper options without a keep-alive capacitor will stall. Why didn't they keep that design in O? I run capacitors in N, HO, and S and I never have issues with stalling. It is literally a thing of the past. I'm honestly thinking the best thing to do might be to leave the MTH electronics to drive the smoke and lights, but put in a 2nd decoder like SoundTraxx, ESU, QSI, or TCS with a keep-alive capacitor wired to the motor and speaker. That way you'd retain the smoke and lights, but get better operation and sound. Just a thought...

Probably because those capacitors are very expensive. The smaller ESU smaller capacitor is $42 at Tony's. Imagine how much the larger O scale version will add to the ever increasing prices of O scale locomotives. Also O scale has a much more "captured" audience. They we are hooked and not going anywhere. Especially the guys who like 2 rail stuff. Where is the competition for MTH 2Rail? Excluding the high end companies it's Sunset and that's it and Sunset doesn't come with sound and command control. So is Sunset really in the same arena as MTH? 

In HO, MTH can easily lose a customer to one of the other manufacturers so they had better make sure their products are very good. That's their motivation for adding stuff like capacitors in HO. 

That is not what we are fixing here.  This is not an issue of loss of AC, it is an issue of data communication between tender board and boiler board, and it is the issue of less effective means to transmit chassis ground from engine to tender when in 2R mode.  Choice because of 2R-3R capability.  You would not see this in 3 rail operations, only 2 rail.  So this mod just makes chassis ground a wire connection like it is in 3 Rail mode.  G

I have one engine with driver plungers, a Lionel Dreyfuss Smithsonian Hudson. It is reserved for display. I have had wipers on some passenger cars and they wore grooves in the back sides of the wheels. These are all gone now...couldn't handle the squeaking, despite using conductive grease.

I also wish that MTH used sprung drivers and knuckle pin rods. My brass two rail steam with these features just "floats" over dips and less than perfect track, in addition to the better performance on tighter radius curves identified above.

GGG  - When my MTH PS3 J stalls on perfectly straight clean track it will only restart if I gently push either a tender truck or the locomotive driver sideway (against the rail). -then it lurches to a start.  I've installed a temporary jumper between the engine frame and the tender frame and it helps - but stalls still occasionally happen.  My conclusion is that the issue isn't the drawbar connection or PS3 connections since it restarts when I move the loco (or tender) on the rail.  I've polished the driver and tender treads until they shine - still intermittent pickup.  The only think I can think of at this point is to add wipers on the tender trucks for all wheel pickup.  Do you have any tips I may not have thought of?

Ed - I think I have the same problems.  Mine has scale wheels, Lobaugh drivers, and all tender wheels are fitted with wipers for both rails.  I don't operate it often; it needs a factory reset, but I have noticed that it operates as if the track were dirty and it were an All Nation Diesel with sintered wheels.  Maybe it is time to give up on DCS and go to a Tsunami or something.

I have 2 of the more recent J engines. One has worked flawlessly and the other has exhibited all of the issues described in the previous posts. In trying to work it out, I even fried a board by touching something I was not supposed to with a piece of metal. When the engine returned, it still had the same problems on the layout.

I noticed that the front tender trucks were very, very tightly attached to the frame. Thinking that maybe the wheels may not be contacting the rails as well as they could, I decided to pop the shell off and loosen the screw that holds the front trucks on. To do this the board above the truck screw needed to be loosened to make room for the screwdriver for the trucks. So, I put it all back together and it has run perfectly ever since. Now I don't know if unscrewing and moving the board over and back "fixed" a connection there, or if better contact on the rails by the front tender wheels was the fix.

The next time I have the shell off of the engine, I will connect the wire to the frame as others have mentioned. I have done this on my other earlier MTH J engines but forgot to do it on the latest. The others have NCE DCC installed and will work even without the tender attached.

I'm sure we'll all keep posted.

Keystoned Ed posted:

GGG  - When my MTH PS3 J stalls on perfectly straight clean track it will only restart if I gently push either a tender truck or the locomotive driver sideway (against the rail). -then it lurches to a start.  I've installed a temporary jumper between the engine frame and the tender frame and it helps - but stalls still occasionally happen.  My conclusion is that the issue isn't the drawbar connection or PS3 connections since it restarts when I move the loco (or tender) on the rail.  I've polished the driver and tender treads until they shine - still intermittent pickup.  The only think I can think of at this point is to add wipers on the tender trucks for all wheel pickup.  Do you have any tips I may not have thought of?

I would start at tender and remove all screws that provide power from right and left wheels and make sure all coating off and good contact between wheels and end of wire.  The truck screws to tender chassis too.  This may have been Chris's issue.  At engine same, except you need to check each plunger spring and wire too.

Verify that the 6 wires in the drawbar connectors are tight and fully seated on both ends.  G

I hope that the person at MTH who is responsible for the circuit design for 2R engines is reading this. I think that MTH needs to relook at this. I know that traditional O Scalers do not think much of the insulated axle used on 2R steam, but anything that would eliminate the use of a hidden plunger that has a spring that is sensitive to excess amperage can't be the best that they can do. The old and tried and true way of insulating wheels on one side should be a consideration. They should be able to design running gear so that the piston rods exit the center of the cylinders also. A "Collectors Edition" with sprung drivers and knuckle pin rods, perhaps at a modest price premium, would make a good product great. My opinion.

You want a USH mechanism with a die cast boiler and tender.  Sunset does everything you want in brass.  

I can identify - I like die cast for some reason.  I want a die cast PA and E-7.  I can make my own mechanism.  I do have the MTH Hudson with all the things mentioned above fixed.

I wonder - could it be that you would come out ahead buying a Sunset and an MTH of the same thing, then eBaying the leftover parts?  Sometimes parts sell for more than the entire model would.

Hudson5432 posted:

I hope that the person at MTH who is responsible for the circuit design for 2R engines is reading this. I think that MTH needs to relook at this. I know that traditional O Scalers do not think much of the insulated axle used on 2R steam, but anything that would eliminate the use of a hidden plunger that has a spring that is sensitive to excess amperage can't be the best that they can do. The old and tried and true way of insulating wheels on one side should be a consideration. They should be able to design running gear so that the piston rods exit the center of the cylinders also. A "Collectors Edition" with sprung drivers and knuckle pin rods, perhaps at a modest price premium, would make a good product great. My opinion.

Can you explain what you mean a little better?  An isolated axle is bad, but an isolated wheel isn't?  MTH actually uses isolated wheels on the tender side, and I think the opposite is better.   What specifically are you talking about?

Seems to me the plunger functions well when new and if the engine is not over loaded. If the metal chosen is wrong and a better material is needed that is an easy mod.  The hidden springs are easily accessible and easily tested via continuity between right wheels.

I would have stuck with the 10pin vice 6 pin for PS-3, that would have left room for the left wheel ground being wired.

For the tender if they went with an insulated axle both tender trucks could also pick up ground with metal bearings in side frame, and both could also get right wheel with axle contacts.  Redundancy would greatly enhance operation.  Especially for drawbar data between engine and tender.  You could run 2 wires for data with a 10 pin.  Of course some may not like esthetics. 

But if you are a pure 2 Railer, the engine can be easily modified for 2R wired continuity rather easily.  Granted an engine may have some bugs, but there are a lot of 2 Railers running these with no issues.   G

I would prefer the engine and tender electrical scheme that is found in USH and PSC engines, with no inaccessible plunger, and in fact no plungers at all. The USH and PSC system has been well proven over several decades. I am a two railer with USH and PSC engines, as well as a number of MTH engines. At one time MTH did use the "USH" system. I have an old MTH 2 rail Empire State Hudson and it still runs flawlessly, although it does not have sound. I also have a newer MTH 2 rail Dreyfuss Hudson, with the large plug, that has both communication problems with a low DCS signal, and also problems just staying "lit". I have the same Dreyfuss Hudson issues as the previous poster. Disassembling a painted engine to "get at" a plunger makes me reluctant to tackle this, so the engine ends up as a hangar queen. I have also noticed that the wheels on my Dreyfuss get a lot dirtier a lot quicker.

I have been considering buying an articulated in 2 rail, with candidates either the N&W "A" or a UP Challenger, but wonder what either of these would do to my layout due to their weight. MTH could save a lot of money in shipping if they investigated ways to make their engines a little lighter. Note I said "a LITTLE"!. I have a Sunset B&O EM-1 2-8-8-4 that cannot outperform my MTH B&O Q-3 Mike!

I do not see a problem with using die cast vs brass for construction, although with the heavier die cast engine I keep a close watch for track issues with my ME track.

The mistake they made, other than deviating from standard 2-rail polarity, was in insulating drivers at the axle.  That means that side rods and valve gear also have to be insulated, and it makes things difficult for machinists who want better 2-rail flanges and tread profiles.

I use plungers all the time for pickup - plain old brass rod against steel wheels seems to work for about a thousand hours of actual around the layout operation.  I routinely replace MTH Diesel wipers with plungers.

I only own a SP Daylight. No major issues considering the price.

When 2 railing an MTH "3/2" loco that was made for 3 rail I insulate the modified 2 rail drivers at the rims with 10 thou fish paper pressed between the new machined steel tires and the modified driver centers that are reduced in width to a scale profile.  Because of the odd split axles on MTH 3/2 locos and the insulated axle bushings in the frame on the right side of the model I install the insulated drivers on the right side of the loco (reverse of standard practice) and insulate the left side of the tender trucks.  The un-insulated drivers then conduct power through their axles and the non-insulated bronze axle bearings into the frame.  I do not rely on the spring loaded plungers in the loco frame for power pickup.  My conversions have no power pickup problems that I have been made aware of by the owners of my conversions.

IMO MTH would have done 2 rail modelers a favor by following conventional 2 rail practice and not trying to re-design the concept of a 2 rail steam loco.

Joe Foehrkolb

Why doesn’t one just get rid of all the electronics then use the common side on the left of the loco to collect power, an insulated drawbar made of fiberglass, etc, and insulate the left side of the tender trucks with the tender chassis and right side of the trucks grounded.  This approach does not require wipers at all, except maybe on the tender trucks to improve contact.

I can identify with Phil's grandson's experiment with the 54 and 49.5 radius and Sunset steam.  I did something similar several years ago at Christmas and had a track around the tree in which I tested one of my Sunset 4-8-4s.  It looked a little silly with the overhang, but it negotiated the curve without derailing etc.  Good luck and welcome to 2-Rail!