MTH Z4K Discontinuance and questions

I’m old school for power. I use postwar Lionel ZWs, but use fast blow fuses as well as TVS diodes to protect modern electronics in engines.

ZWs are built like a tank, are easy to repair, have readily available parts and can be easily serviced by the owner.

Others believe ZWs should be relegated to only provide power for accessories and lights. Some say that their day has since passed for powering our modern engines.

I do not rely on the ZWs circuit breakers as they can take forever to trip. But the easy workaround is to use fast blow fuses.

I remain unconvinced that ZWs should not power modern electronics.

Mack

Its likely the fan that is making noise. Change it out. Not a big deal. Current back ups are a couple of post war transformers hooked up to TMCC lock-ons for fast breakers plus TVS's. I plan to pick up a couple of old ZWs. They will never be obsolete and can be repaired indefinitely.

Pete

I have 2 Z4k as well as the Rowi 480w and the MRC pure Power 130w.

I have no issues with any of them. I do like the remote option for The Z4ks  and need to obtain some signal enhancers for that remote.

@Railrunnin posted:

MTH just announced they will no longer produce the venerable Z4K after the next run.

 

Thank you,

Paul

Please tell us the source of this news. I expected the spun off MTH technology company to carry on with the Z4000. This power supply should not be discontinued. There's nothing else like it.

July 22, 2020 - M.T.H. Electric Trains' Z-4000 transformer will be produced for the last time this Fall with delivery slated for late 2020/early 2021. Future productions of the venerable transformer will not be possible due to a discontinuation of the unit's microprocessor and lack of suitable replacement in the secondary electronics marketplace.

Conventional or Command Control operators have chosen the Z-4000 transformer as their go-to transformer for nearly 20 years. The industry's most powerful UL listed transformer, the Z-4000 delivers 400 watts of continuous power at just over a $1.00 per watt. There simply is no better, affordable power supply for AC model railroads than the M.T.H. Z-4000.

A built-in cooling fan keeps the unit's internal circuits running at max capacity for hours of continuous operation making the Z-4000 a great choice for club layouts, public displays, and home layouts alike. Two separate accessory outputs are included making it easy to provide 10 - 14 volts continuous AC output for trackside accessories, switches, lighting, and more.

Simply put, a single Z-4000 will power a lot of layout!

Now is the time to order the Z-4000 (Item No. 40-4000) and avoid missing out on the last run. The Z-4000 can be ordered through any M.T.H. Authorized Retailer or by calling the M.T.H. Sales Department at 410-381-2580.

@Oman posted:

Please tell us the source of this news. I expected the spun off MTH technology company to carry on with the Z4000. This power supply should not be discontinued. There's nothing else like it.

About thirty minutes ago received a MTH news letter stating that fact.

Ron

Announcement directly from MTH on 7-22-2020.

Steve

@Jim Sandman posted:

Future productions of the venerable transformer will not be possible due to a discontinuation of the unit's microprocessor and lack of suitable replacement in the secondary electronics marketplace.

 

That's an important reason right there. Unfortunately, modern devices are all too intertwined with the whims and capabilities of the suppliers of microprocessors and other components. And once a critical 3rd-party chip or part is obsolete, perfectly good and otherwise repairable products get orphaned.

With an inadequate supply of a critical part, MTH will only be able to make a finite number of new units and the expected supply of spare boards for parts and warranty support.

This sort of thing will tend to keep the less efficient, but repairable, old postwar transformers in circulation nearly forever.

The Z-4000 is an excellent product. MTH worked very hard to get it accepted for UL listing; it's a shame to see it killed of by the supply chain.

There are still new Z4000s to be had. I just looked and Amazon even has one listed. If you have a doubt, now is your opportunity to purchase a new Z4000. The same may not be said this time next year.

Our modular train club utilizes two Z4000s on the 20x40 layout and we just bought a new spare. We also use a MRC Pure Power Dual on our 12x15 layout. The 6x11 is powered by a classic (refurbished) Lionel KW. They all do an outstanding job.

Model trains were powered by transformers before the Z4000 was introduced. Trains will remain running when the very last new Z4000 is purchased. The world is not coming to an end; yet.

I anticipated this and purchased a new Z4000. It's one thing if an engine fails but the entire layout depends on the transformer...

MELGAR

I have had to return 2 Z4000's to the customers who brought them in for repair. Got a note from MTH service said no more power boards are available and none to be expected.

On the one hand, this appears to be yet another new tidbit of bad news in this China virus year.   I have two Z4000s and one had to be sent in for service twice since I purchased it new.  I guess if it breaks down again, it is dead.  Not good.

On the other hand, I just finally hooked up DCS and I feel like my head is now above the sand I have had it buried in.  DCS and others have made the old transformers not matter as much any more.  (For those who believe Transformer Lives Matter, I sincerely apologize).  All you need is a 12-14 volt power block and DCS and you can run your layout, right?  Right?

Actually 18-20 volts recommended for DCS.

This is another of my backups. 500 watts pure sine wave. Add appropiate breakers as needed. No need for those puny Z4000s and no circuitry to become obsolete.

@Norton posted:

Actually 18-20 volts recommended for DCS.

This is another of my backups. 500 watts pure sine wave. Add appropiate breakers as needed. No need for those puny Z4000s and no circuitry to become obsolete.

I tried running my Z4000s at 18 volts for DCS but they lit up my passenger cars too bright and I was concerned about burning holes in smoking cabooses and such at that level.  So with help from some of the fellas here, 12-14 volts seems ideal.

This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. Mike Wolf just announced he is closing the doors of MTH Electric Trains. If anything of the company remains after he closes shop, consider it a bonus. I just took delivery of a Strasburg passenger car that I pre-ordered earlier this year, and that is the last piece of MTH equipment I'm going to buy until I know more about the company's future, if there is one. Buying a piece of electronic equipment such as a Z4K with no assurance that the company that built it is going to be there to support it and honor the warranty would be a "fool's errand." I own 2 Z4Ks and like them very much; I guess I'll have to cross my fingers that nothing happens to them. 

John

I have thought about buying a spare TIU since I only have one, but I will not buy a spare Z4000.  If it bites the dust, I'll find whatever I think is the best option available when the time comes.  On another current topic, I did commend a modeler who has two older Z4000s when he wrote  he may buy a third for a spare.  I said buy it now if you have the money.  He admits he knows little about electronics and said he is familiar with the Z4000.  In his case, the chances of two going bad are slim given his age and mine.  It's just another decision each person has to make, and I can support either choice.

I agree, Mark; I own a spare TIU as well as a few brand-new DCS remotes and thumbwheel cradles just in case. There are obviously other components that can fail on the remote, but the thumbwheel cradle appears to be the weak link. Heck, I'm still using the Z4K remote for conventional operation, and love it. And, like the DCS remote, I have a few spares. However, the reality is that there will come a day when those items will wear out and will need to be replaced if I want to keep running trains.  I had heard a while back that Dallee was going to produce a new high-power transformer, but there's nothing on their website to confirm or deny that. If, in fact, the Z4K is history, that will leave an opening for someone else to meet the demand for a high-power transformer. The Z4K is supposedly MTH's best-selling product, so it is likely that the demand is there should someone else decide to rise to the occasion. 

John

It'd be interesting to know the source at MTH of the rumor. From what I've seen at dealers, Z-4000s are plentiful, and MTH inventory lists them as in stock. Unless their inventory pages and dealers websites are wrong, I don't see a shortage of these anytime soon. I actually need another transformer...been shopping around...potentially get either a couple of Z-1000s or splurge for another Z-4000 and have some power to spare.

@EricF posted:

. And once a critical 3rd-party chip or part is obsolete, perfectly good and otherwise repairable products get orphaned.

With an inadequate supply of a critical part, MTH will only be able to make a finite number of new units and the expected supply of spare boards for parts and warranty support.

 

The Z-4000 is an excellent product. MTH worked very hard to get it accepted for UL listing; it's a shame to see it killed of by the supply chain.

There is little reason that the Z4000 couldn't undergo a simple micro redesign. I was an electronics product developer for more than 35 years. I had to redesign, so as not to obsolete a product and sometimes we did it as a cost reduction. As for my investment in DCS etc, I'll deal with it when the time comes. I'm not about to panic buy, like buying toilet paper. 

@Paul Kallus posted:

It'd be interesting to know the source at MTH of the rumor. From what I've seen at dealers, Z-4000s are plentiful, and MTH inventory lists them as in stock. Unless their inventory pages and dealers websites are wrong, I don't see a shortage of these anytime soon. I actually need another transformer...been shopping around...potentially get either a couple of Z-1000s or splurge for another Z-4000 and have some power to spare.

Paul, I received an email from MTH saying that they will be discontinuing the Z4000 transformer! It's not a hoax!!

So is it safe to conclude that a new form(s) of MTH will include:

1.  DCS and updates (for sure, already announced)

2. No Z4000s (for sure, announced today),  no Z1000s and no transformers?

3.  Power bricks only?

4.  A smaller, limited catalog based on the other downsizing?

It seems to me that forensic science is starting to form conclusions...  

Since they are officially announcing the ending of the Z4000 for sure, can we assume other things beside DCS will continue?  Can we expect more discontinued announcements based on supplier limitations or parts that will not be renewed/redesigned?  Won't this reinforce the possibility that certain things will endure?

@Norton posted:

Actually 18-20 volts recommended for DCS.

This is another of my backups. 500 watts pure sine wave. Add appropiate breakers as needed. No need for those puny Z4000s and no circuitry to become obsolete.

If you don't mind me asking where can you get that transformer. I would like to buy one if possible.

This is what is inside the box. Just search on Acme 500 VA Transformer. There are many for less on ebay.

https://www.amazon.com/Acme-El...former/dp/B005G5HLHO

I added a variac, switch, breakers, and binding posts. When powering command control trains I put a fast breaker between this and the track, specifically a TMCC Lock On. Opens as fast as any Lionel or MTH transformer. Its basically a Lionel Powerhouse brick on steriods.

Pete

@Norton posted:

This is what is inside the box. Just search on Acme 500 VA Transformer. There are many for less on ebay.

https://www.amazon.com/Acme-El...former/dp/B005G5HLHO

I added a variac, switch, breakers, and binding posts. When powering command control trains I put a fast breaker between this and the track, specifically a TMCC Lock On. Opens as fast as any Lionel or MTH transformer. Its basically a Lionel Powerhouse brick on steriods.

Pete

Thank you Sir. I will check them out.

What the Z4000 discontinuation announcement sounds like to me is, this would have happened even if MTH wasn't closing its doors.  Possibly the new DCS company will be working on some sort of replacement for the Z4000.  Anyway, MTH is making another run of them this fall, and with the current number in stock they'll be around for a while I'm guessing.

Maybe if someone continues MTH production they'll make a replacement.  There's so much we don't know and a lot of things could happen in a year's time.

@ROGERW posted:

Paul, I received an email from MTH saying that they will be discontinuing the Z4000 transformer! It's not a hoax!!

I didn't think it was a hoax...just wanted to know if it was from sales, Mike Wolf or someone in particular. I believe all their products will end, except DCS, unless someone steps up and takes over the lines.

One simple aspect of all MTH's transformers, Z-500, Z-1000, and Z-4000 is that they make great transformers for DCS due to the banana plug style terminals. Hooking up and disconnecting TIUs, bricks, etc, is made so much easier. The other great feature of the Z-4000 is the digital readout of volts and amps, also makes for easy viewing in darker places. I've also noticed how volts and amps constantly change as engines, lighted cars, etc. are added, smoke units turned on/off, and with modern electronics sensitive to voltage fluctuations being able to monitor prominent displays is a great feature IMO. Many a time its been when I turn off a smoke unit the voltage will jump, and then I dial back a notch to keep it in the suggested zone.

If DCS is indeed continued in future years, then IMO it'd be wise to continue some variety of transformer like the Z-family as they facilitate compatibility.

@Paul Kallus posted:

I didn't think it was a hoax...just wanted to know if it was from sales, Mike Wolf or someone in particular. I believe all their products will end, except DCS, unless someone steps up and takes over the lines.

One simple aspect of all MTH's transformers, Z-500, Z-1000, and Z-4000 is that they make great transformers for DCS due to the banana plug style terminals. Hooking up and disconnecting TIUs, bricks, etc, is made so much easier. The other great feature of the Z-4000 is the digital readout of volts and amps, also makes for easy viewing in darker places. I've also noticed how volts and amps constantly change as engines, lighted cars, etc. are added, smoke units turned on/off, and with modern electronics sensitive to voltage fluctuations being able to monitor prominent displays is a great feature IMO. Many a time its been when I turn off a smoke unit the voltage will jump, and then I dial back a notch to keep it in the suggested zone.

If DCS is indeed continued in future years, then IMO it'd be wise to continue some variety of transformer like the Z-family as they facilitate compatibility.

I don't see DCS continuing for very long. With no new engines being built I don't see much of a demand for it.  

I hope I'm wrong.

"If, in fact, the Z4K is history, that will leave an opening for someone else to meet the demand for a high-power transformer. "

There is the Lionel ZW-L, which is about 50% more dollars and 50% more watts.  Also allows remote control in conventional mode through 4 built-in Legacy Powermasters.  See attached instruction manual.

The ZW-L is a beast for sure, and I considered it when I decided to upgrade my power. More than the higher price, it was the fact that it is not UL-listed that turned me away from it. 

"it is not UL-listed that turned me away from it."

There are other certifying organizations and Lionel used another organization that certifies consumer electronics. Cannot recall the name.  This "only UL certified" business is more advertising than technology is my guess.  I suspect (but do not know for sure) that Lionel used who they did because UL might have become very expensive and/or bureaucratic.  I cannot imagine Lionel making a consumer product that isn't properly vetted, and this one was vetted by a reputable certifying agent as far as I have heard.

While the Z4k is a nice transformer, I'm not sure I understand the worry about the availability of this or any other hobby transformer for that matter.  Power transformers are plentiful on electronic parts websites like Mouser or Digikey.  If you are using DCS or TMCC you don't need a variable voltage source and it's pretty trivial to buy a transformer, some TVS diodes, and circuit breakers (or fuses) to make yourself a power supply.  There are lots of websites and YouTube videos out there - and if it got to the point where there was nothing available on the market - I'm sure someone here could put together a small tutorial on what to buy and how to built it.

@Landsteiner posted:

"it is not UL-listed that turned me away from it."

There are other certifying organizations and Lionel used another organization that certifies consumer electronics.

Intertek, ETL is the most common next to UL. They test to the UL standards.

@Landsteiner posted:

"it is not UL-listed that turned me away from it."

There are other certifying organizations and Lionel used another organization that certifies consumer electronics. Cannot recall the name.  This "only UL certified" business is more advertising than technology is my guess.  I suspect (but do not know for sure) that Lionel used who they did because UL might have become very expensive and/or bureaucratic.  I cannot imagine Lionel making a consumer product that isn't properly vetted, and this one was vetted by a reputable certifying agent as far as I have heard.

UL stands for Underwriters Laboratories.  Underwriters are sort of the people who will back an insurance policy.  Basically if they say it's OK, you're insurer is more likely to cover a loss if it causes a fire.  It protects the consumer and the manufacturer from liability.

That's not to say that there aren't other agencies that do similar things, or are respected by the insurers.  That said if Lionel is willing to sell it, my guess is their liability insurer is comfortable with the risk - so it's unlikely it poses a hazard.  What is more likely is that due to the high power output of the new ZW it didn't fall into a consumer category at UL and would have been prohibitively expensive to register as a professional or commercial device.  Just a guess.

@Oman posted:

Intertek, ETL is the most common next to UL. They test to the UL standards.

Then why not go UL!!????  UL is most recognized.  Or maybe the unit could not pass the UL testing?

Like to hear an explanation.

Ron

The ZW-L is ETL Listed. Both ETL and UL are Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories (NRTL's.) UL is also the developer of the testing standards. Both UL and ETL test to the same UL developed standards.

@PRRronbh posted:

Then why not go UL!!????  UL is most recognized.  Or maybe the unit could not pass the UL testing?

Like to hear an explanation.

Ron

It could be a cost issue or timing issue. At the time, UL may have had a backlog. Most likely, it is a cost issue. There's nothing wrong with an ETL listing.

@rplst8 posted:

While the Z4k is a nice transformer, I'm not sure I understand the worry about the availability of this or any other hobby transformer for that matter.  Power transformers are plentiful on electronic parts websites like Mouser or Digikey.  If you are using DCS or TMCC you don't need a variable voltage source and it's pretty trivial to buy a transformer, some TVS diodes, and circuit breakers (or fuses) to make yourself a power supply.  There are lots of websites and YouTube videos out there - and if it got to the point where there was nothing available on the market - I'm sure someone here could put together a small tutorial on what to buy and how to built it.

Because it doesn't carry a "designer logo" yuck 😝

Things won't work right if you're unfamiliar with them 😵

How's that for "standard" 🤣

Here is another transformer alternative.  Landscape transformer from Home Depot.  They have either a 300 watt or 500 watt that run at 15 volts.  $100 - $150. I have been using one for several years to power accessories and I am sure they are UL listed.   Can anyone tell me if there is a reason this wouldn't work or is a bad idea for DCS?

It would probably work fine, but why bother?  You'd have to add quality circuit protection to it anyway.