Need Help with TMCC/DCS

If you check out your DCS manual I think you will find a short version of how to program a TMCC engine to run under DCS. It works quite well and will also work with Legacy.

If you need more info Barry's book has a lot more info.

 

Rod

Just to state what, to me, is obvious: use an appropriate Lionel "CAB" unit to run TMCC/etc, and the DCS stuff to run the PS2/3 stuff. Just pick up one and put down the

other. (I have a DCS Remote Commander and a CAB-1.)

 

If you're going to get all "blendy" with systems, well, too fancy for me. And asking for it.

Peter,

but for whatever reason, I can’t get the Southern Crescent to respond

From page 175 of The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition:

At times, a TMCC engine may not respond to a command from the DCS Remote. The way to address this is as follows: 

• First, while sending a TMCC engine a command from the DCS Remote, observe the Lionel Command Base. If the red LED on the Command Base does not blink at least once when the command is sent, there is a connection problem between the TIU and the Command Base. If this is the case, ensure that the cable between the TIU and the Command Base is tightly connected to both devices, that the correct end (both ends are labeled) is plugged into each device, and that it is the correct cable for the command base to which the TIU is connected. If it is not the correct cable it should be replaced 

• Another reason why the TMCC Command Base's red LED may not blink when sending a command from the DCS Remote, to the TMCC engine, could be because the wrong TIU address was entered when the TMCC engine was added to the DCS Remote. The TIU address entered must be for the TIU to which the TMCC Command base is connected 

• If the red LED on the Command Base does blink when the DCS Remote sends a TMCC command, the problem may be that the TMCC command is not reaching the engine. Ensure that the TMCC 

engine is on a powered track that is connected to one of the TIU's output channels 

• If the engine still does not receive the command, it's possible that the wire connecting the Command Base to the outside rails is not getting to the track upon which the TMCC engine resides. This may be because the outside rails are not all connected either through the rails themselves or through the transformer Common wiring if more than one transformer is providing track power. To ensure that the TMCC signal reaches all of the TMCC engines on the layout all of the time, connect a Common terminal from all of the layout's transformers together after ensuring that all the transformers are in phase as discussed in section Transformer Considerations, Phasing Transformers earlier in this book.

 

If the TMCC engine still does not respond to commands from the DCS Remote, it's possible that the TMCC engine has a TMCC ID# that is different from what was entered into the DCS Remote when the engine was added. In that case, change the TMCC engine's TMCC ID# to some other number as described in section DCS Menus, System Menu, Engine Setup earlier in this book. Then attempt to control the TMCC engine again using the changed TMCC ID#. If it still does not respond the TMCC engine itself may be the problem.

 

This and a whole lot more is all in "The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", now available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book from MTH's web store site!

 

CLICK HERE go to MTH's web page for the book!

Barry,

 

OK, thanks very much.  I should have read through your book on this but it's been a while since I had any problems with my MTH stuff and, therefore, forgot that you even discussed this topic. 

 

Will update this thread later to advise progress.

 

Thanks again.

 

Peter 

 

Barry could you please let me know on what page it shows or tells me how to hook up my DCS to my Lionel TMCC units. Thanks in advance James

Alibatwomble / James - in the second edition printed version, it starts on page 121, and pages 122-124 have the diagrams.

When I originally hooked up my TMCC base to my DCS system, the TMCC engines would not respond to any commands.

 

As it turns out, the issue was that the cable connecting the TMCC to DCS was incorrect.

 

In my environment, the "box" on the cable has to be on the TMCC side, not the DCS. I don't know if it is supposed to be this way or not, but if I put the "box" on the DCS end of the connection, I get nothing.

The "box" on my cable is toward the Legacy command base, not the TIU, so that would be correct.  It's a one-way cable, so the reverse probably wouldn't work.

 

John,

 

That's correct!

 

 

Peter,

 

That's also correct - thanks!

Following the instructions I've not been able to add a TMCC engine to DCS.  Somehow it fails in one of the last two steps and doesn't add.

 

Gave up and use the CAB1 instead ...

 

Everything was hooked up correctly; following the instructions didn't work for me.

 

Never figured it out and just moved on down the DCS road.

What exactly fails?  I've added them, nothing special.  If you're adding one that already has an address, you can just add it and edit the address to what you have.  I've never had a problem adding one.

 

 

Look on the inactive list, that's where it ends up being added.  Select it there and it'll move up to the active list, then you can control it.

 

In which position is the Program/Run switch on the engine set?

If you already have the engine addressed, no need to change to PGM to add it to the remote, just select it's address as you add it, and you're good to go.

 

John,

 

Doesn't the switch need to be in Run to run?

Sure Bob, but I was referring to something that he already has running under TMCC using the CAB1, so I'm assuming that it's running now.   My point is you don't have to really program it, you just need to add it to the DCS remote.  That's all I ever do to add a TMCC locomotive to the DCS system.

 

Peter,

 

When you turn the system(s) on, you 1st then have to select the engine and then press "Start Up".  The engine should already be on the track.

 

Actually, the 3 TMCC engines I have, when I turn on the DCS system the headlights automatically come on (because there's 18 volts being applied to the track when I turn on power).

 

It sounds like you're turning the system on, then turning up the voltage.  I have a 180 brick hooked up to my TIU and when I turn on the main power strip both TIU and brick are energized, supplying 18 volts and DCS signal to the track.  You shouldn't have to "turn up any power" under this command environment.

 

When you want to turn off the TMCC engine, you press Shutdown, then press Menu so you can then press the button to turn off the handheld.  I think any button besides the Menu button will do, but I always try to keep things the same and simple.

Bob,

 

First - thanks for responding so quickly!

 

I don't have a powerhouse brick, I have a Z4K.  So I turn it on and then move handle up to 18 v.  When I do, you're right, the lights and sounds come on - or they don't (as I said in my earlier post, 50% of the time I power up and the loco just sits there like I have the power off). 

 

Starting up basically nothing new.  The sounds and light, as you pointed out, are already on.  No cab chatter or anything else new happens. 

 

From there, everything else is as described in my earlier note.  Front light is rapidly flashing, can't really control turning off bell (most of the time).  Scrolling up the speed sometimes results in the train just sitting there like I have it on zero speed.  And most of the time, when I decrease speed, it has zero effect on actually slowing loco down.

 

Help!

 

Peter 

Sounds like maybe an antenna issue.

How do other TMCC engines behave on your layout?

How does this engine behave on another TMCC layout?

 

Rod

So I turn it on and then move handle up to 18 v.

 

Peter, I don't have a Z4K.  Can you set the voltage to 18 volts and without moving the handles turn it off at that point?  That way when you turn it back on you should have 18 volts on the track immediately.

 

I'm pretty sure, as far as DCS engines go, that if you "throttle up" from 0 to 18 volts you miss the watchdog signal, not sure if this pertains to TMCC engines or not.  When I turn on my layout the 18 volts is (more or less) instantly applied.

 

Maybe someone with all these components can chime in.

I'd try it strictly on TMCC without the DCS in the picture to evaluate the locomotive.  Also, it might be instructive to try running it in conventional mode.  Like Rod says, testing on a totally different layout would be the best option first.

 

I use PH180 bricks, and I've never had any issue with the power coming up instantly with the power to the Legacy controller.

The problem is I don't know anyone in the area in the hobby, so not possible to test on a TMCC layout. The only other Legacy set I have is the R-16 subway set that's boxed up and put away. There is a train shop about 40 minutes away. I can call over there and see if they have TMCC or Legacy and whether they would even allow me to bring this thing there and have them test this thing on their layout. Really tough when you're relatively new to the hobby and don't know anyone within a reasonable distance that can help. Thanks. Peter

What does that mean "antenna problem?" Meaning in the TMCC base or the locomotive or ...?

Well, given that you have one TMCC locomotive and one TMCC system, it's pretty hard to isolate issues unless you can start eliminating pieces.  How "boxed up and put away" is your other locomotive, it would be useful to know that the environment is working properly and you're just looking at issues with the specific engine.

 

OK, got my subway set out - this one has never been run and so this was a similar "from scratch" set up.  Man what a COOL train set!  Anyway, went through set-up and then tried it.  Works perfectly.  So, thinking it's the Southern Crescent engine BUT before concluding this, two things: 

 

First - I hit the whistle button before moving it out and I get two short blasts.  I saw one Youtube review and from memory, I think two short blasts may mean the loco is alerting you it's in some time of auto sequence mode??  (If not, then I can rule this out.)

 

Second - will call the hobby shop 40 minutes away and see if he has TMCC or Legacy on his layout and, if he does, whether he'll be kind enough to put this thing through its paces.

 

Peter

   

Two short blasts are the signal for starting up going forward, perhaps it just does that.  I'm not familiar with it, so I can't say.  If nothing else had a problem, I think you have probably confirmed your TMCC setup works.

 

You have obviously gotten the TMCC ID programmed, or the locomotive wouldn't respond at all.

 

Does it respond better if you hold your hand closely over the locomotive (but don't touch anything).

 

Yep, I have it programmed in and selected.  It's just seems that the engine is sporadically blind to power or commands. 

 

Good news - the hobby shop 40 minutes from me has Legacy on its test layout and is happy to test this thing for me - so heading over tomorrow after work.  So psyched!  Amato's in Middletown CT.  Been there for like 60 years and has that special nostalgic feel of days gone by.  The gentleman who runs the train dept. is named Dale and he is a great guy all around.  

 

Will advise once I have an update.  

 

Peter   

Just got back from Amato's in Middletown.  Dale set up the locomotive on the test track and put it through its paces - seemed to work just fine!  Kudos to Dale and Amato's for the help.  Definitely have earned my business. 

 

In terms of the issues I was experiencing - their repair man took a break from his work to watch Dale put the locomotive through its paces (these Legacy engines, with the amazing sounds and various steam functions are really things of beauty) and said that, despite the MTH and TMCC systems compatibility (hooking TMCC base to DCS), it's been his experience that it doesn't always work perfectly smoothly.  Tru dat.

 

Peter 

Well, it's good that you don't have an expensive repair.

 

I'm not sure why the TMCC command base would act any different being controlled by the DCS remote or a CAB1, the base sends out the same commands.

 

Did you think to take the TMCC command base with you and test that as well?

 

John,

 

Frankly, I don't know.  It all seems a bit mysterious to me.  Luckily, I just bought the locomotive, so if there had been an issue I would have had recourse. 

 

Didn't think to bring the TMCC base with me. How would I go about testing it anyway? 

 

 

Peter,

...said that, despite the MTH and TMCC systems compatibility (hooking TMCC base to DCS), it's been his experience that it doesn't always work perfectly smoothly.

With all due respect to the repair person, that's baloney.

 

If you setup everything correctly and the DCS and Legacy/TMCC components are not damaged in some way, the DCS Remote absolutely can operate any TMCC or Legacy engine, in TMCC mode.

Barry,

 

You're obviously a whole lot more knowledgeable on this stuff than I will ever be.  But if we're looking at this analytically, the only "control" that changed was the store's Legacy over my DCS/TMCC base.  The two locomotives remained the same.  One works perfectly while one works sporadically in my house. The sporadic one works perfectly at the store.  Does this mean the repairman is right in his opinion?  No.  But it does seem to explain the situation better than any other specific response so far ...

 

 

Actually, what this is telling me is the TMCC command base may be slightly off frequency, which would explain what you're seeing.  Seems to me we just had another identical thread for this kind of issue in the Legacy/TMCC forum.  Turned out the base needed to be adjusted.  There is a tuning procedure on Dale Manquen's website, here's the page: http://www.trainfacts.com/trainfacts/?p=298

 

I'll post the excerpt from that page that pertains to tuning.  Refer to the whole page for additional details.

 

If the frequency tuning of the Base oscillator shifts away from the nominal value, the receivers in the locomotives may have a reduced sensitivity. Re-tuning L8 is a bit risky, but sometimes this is necessary. Using the least sensitive locomotive as a reference, press the horn/whistle button on the CAB-1. Use a plastic screwdriver to adjust L8 back and forth until you determine the extremes of the adjustment range that will activate the horn/whistle. Now adjust L8 to the middle of this adjustment range. Check all you other locomotives. (You could have just one bad locomotive and a good Base!)

Peter,

 

I repeat: something is defective or misconnected, somewhere in your train room.

 

Different TMCC/Legacy engines have different antennas. Until you can make it work, or not work, in your train room with a Cab-1, you have no way to identify the source of the problem.

 

TMCC and Legacy rely on radio (RF) signals. Each engine has an antenna and some antennas are more sensitive than others, The variables between your layout and the one in the store include: different command base, differeent track topology (layout vs. test track), different wiring, different AC ground, and different remote controller.

 

All of the above can influence TMCC performance, and issues may be more prevalent with one engine than with another, since each engine has a different antenna implementation.

 

Also, you neglected to mention if the store used a DCS Remote, a TMCC Cab-1 or a Legacy Cab-2.

Barry,

 

Given we only have DCS right now along with the TMCC as I indicated, all I can tell you is that Amato's has the latest Legacy system with whatever controller is included with it.  They have a small layout comprised of Lionel Fastrack.  And, like I said - you know more about this than I.  But without an electrical engineering degree, when I run both engines on my 15 feet of track that I now have hooked up and powered - one loco works and one doesn't - under the exact same conditions.  I'm all ears if you want to suggest ways to test between the two engines for antenna issues, or my system integrity, etc.  Obviously, the point of this thread isn't to debate the pros/cons of DCS or TMCC or end up in a heated debate over this academic point.  The point is that I'd like to get to the bottom of the issue.   

 

Peter

  Easy things to try....1- move the "U" connection from command base wire  to an outside rail.

2- move engine to a different location

3-Hold hand over problem engine to see if flickering head lights disappear. Also try couplers. whistle bell etc  . Don't forget trying different speed steps under one of the soft keys... 128 seems to work the best.

Peter,

But without an electrical engineering degree, when I run both engines on my 15 feet of track that I now have hooked up and powered - one loco works and one doesn't - under the exact same conditions. 

This one's easy, assuming that both engines are TMCC. The one that doesn't work properly has a problem.

 

The fact that it ran on a different test track at the store merely demonstrates that the engine, most likely one of the following:

• It's "allergic" to something in your environment
• It was loaded into DCS incorrectly
• It has a sensitivity issue with regards to your command base, possibly due to an antenna issue or something similar to what John suggested.

That's the only analyses I can see that fits the facts.

 

Gregg,

 

Thanks! 

 

At least I'm slightly on the right track, as I did the following over the weeked:  moved the wire off the U connection to the outer rail directly; started loco in a different location.  Had it set up for 128 speed steps, but then also changed it to 32 (or whatever the lower number is) after reading somewhere on this forum that 128 is only recommended under some particular set-up and not my DCS/TMCC situation.  In any event, none of those things made any diff.  I will try the other things you've suggested.  Thanks again.

 

Barry - OK, will start from scratch - again - and see what happens.  Thanks again.

 

Peter

I'd suggest taking the locomotive and the command base elsewhere and testing.  Failing that, just slap down a circle of track and test on that.  I don't think this has anything to do with DCS or using the DCS remote.  Your problems are from the TMCC command base out.  The fact that you use the DCS remote for control is just a footnote for this issue.

 

Debugging is just a process of eliminating variables until there is only one left.

John,

 

Willing to do whatever, but not sure I follow.  I have a TMCC base only.  I hook it up to my DCS and use the DCS remote.  The loco works in conventional.   

Unfortunately the engine's   speed steps (128 if used) must be set up each time the layout is powered up. There's no way to lock them in the engine with a dcs remote. .What's the TMCC address, That's the one you need to know if running with cab-1 or 2 and eventually with the dcs remote when adding the engine.

First off, I'd forget about setting the speed steps to 128, just get it running with TMCC first.  The symptoms are telling me that there's a communication issue between the locomotive and the TMCC command base.  Since the locomotive worked properly on a Legacy base, my finger tends to point to the TMCC base.  As I stated previously, we just had the exact same scenario in the Legacy/TMCC forum, and it was a TMCC command base frequency tuning issue.  These bases are pretty old, and the prospects of them drifting off frequency is pretty significant.

 

The totally separate section of track was to eliminate one variable, that being the existing layout.

I forgot to mention one thing, The Lionel command base power adapter must have 3 prongs and be  plugged into a properly grounded  wall outlet. That's easy to check.

Hey John, We have TMCC engine that won't move unless set to 128 but I agree with you, there's something else going on.

I've never seen that happen, I've run a bunch of TMCC locomotives with the DCS remote.  I agree that if they are so equipped, they run better with 128 steps, but they should run just assigning them to the remote.

 

To check the brick, you can check the continuity from the 3rd prong of the brick plug to the outside of the barrel of the power connection.  They should be connected.

 

Set the address so you know what it is. The procedure for using the DCS remote is pretty much the same as just entering an existing one into the remote, just change the position of the RUN/PGM switch so the new address can be written to the locomotive.

 

However, the headlight flickering indicates a signal strength issue.  Are you sure the antenna is plugged in properly inside the locomotive?

I wonder if changing the address to one you know first on the locomotive, make sure it's responding to that under TMCC Cab1/Legacy properly, then do the setup in DCS ... that way you know for sure about the locomotive under TMCC control.

Peter,

 

Start fresh and post a diagram of how you have DCS and the TMCC Command Base wired to your layout.

 

Then, give us a step-by-step procedure of what you are doing, step-by-step.  Don't leave anything out, from when you put the engine on the track to when you turn the layout on, in the exact order.  That's about the only way folks here are going to be able to help.

First - thanks ever so much for all the support - I really appreciate it. 

 

By the way, the new issue (although I was experiencing this before, but it's confusing and frustrating) - I put power to the track and half the time the loco acts like the power is off.   

 

Here are the exact steps I did:

 

• Put switch to "Program" on loco.
• Turn power on and put 18v to track.
• Program engine into remote. 
• Then I power down. 
• Then I put switch on loco to "Run." 
• Then I put 18 v to track. 

Loco acted like there was no power to track.  So I shut everything down and re-powered and restarted.  Same thing.  Third time, the loco came on, idling with front headlight flickering and smoke stack emitting smoke.  Completely non-responsive to all commands, although TMCC base red lights goes on for a split second every time I attempt a command.  

 

I have a 8' section of stranded 14 AWG running from the terminal block to the track on which the loco is sitting. 

 

I have MTH banana jacks connecting terminal block to TIU and TIU to Z4K. 

 

I have a stranded 16AWG connecting TIU "Fixed Out 1" to TMCC Track U screw.  (And the loco is obviously sitting on track 1, or nothing else would work - hee hee). 

 

Keep in-mind that I am having zero problems with my other Legacy engine under these exact conditions.  

 

I might have missed something, but I don't think so...     

 

Peter

 

I still think you need to find a way to test the TMCC command base independently.  That one is still my top suspect.

Peter,

 

Some comments regarding what you last posted:

• There is absolutely no need to put the switch in "PROG" when adding the engine. The engine doesn't even have to be on the tracks at all when it's being added. It fact, the engine can be in a box when you add it for all DCS cares.
• When you add the engine, you must enter the engine's actual TMCC address when requested to do so, i.e., "TMCC=".
• When requested to enter the TIU number, you must enter the one to which the TMCC command base is connected
• The command base's "one wire" must be connected to all of the TIU's Common (black terminal) channel outputs that are to be used for TMCC operation. These Common lines are not connected internally within the TIU (except in the case of the very first TIU, the Rev. G).

 

Barry, does connecting the black lead to the layout track common to which all the TIUs are connected accomplish the same thing as connecting it to the common on the one TIU?

does connecting the black lead to the layout track common to which all the TIUs are connected accomplish the same thing as connecting it to the common on the one TIU?

Yes, however, the point at which this is done should be on the output side of the TIU in order to prevent the TMCC/Legacy signal from passing throughout the DCS signal generators.

Barry, the only reason for putting the TMCC locomotive in PGM is because he has some doubts as to the actual TMCC ID.  You're right that if you know the ID, you don't have to put it in PGM, and I almost never do.

 

John,

Barry, the only reason for putting the TMCC locomotive in PGM is because he has some doubts as to the actual TMCC ID. 

Regardless, there's no reason at all to ever have the engine on the tracks when adding it. There's no facility in the add process to change the engine's DCS ID#. If one desires to do so, that is accomplished using the following:

Menu/System/Engine Setup/Edit Engine/Edit Engine Address

I think you may have the wrong TMCC address, read Barry's last post and try the edit, You have the engine  added to the remote(although it doesn't work) now edited the address. follow the on DCS remote's  screen directions, if all goes well you should get 2 whistle blasts indicating the new TMCC address took. TMCC engines add to the lowest available spot on he dcs remote , however they also end up in the inactive list. If the new tmcc address doesn't take you're back where you started.

As Barry pointed out, you should try changing the locomotives TMCC address after adding it to the remote.  This will insure you are actually talking to the locomotive with the proper TMCC ID.

 

 

Does it need to be on the TIU to which the cable from the TMCC unit is attached?

No, it does not.

As an update, I brought the loco to someone in the area who also has Legacy and they put the loco through its paces.  First try - everything worked fine.  Then I got the bright idea to ask him to power everything down and retry a couple more times (given my issues are sporadic). On second attempt, the engine acted as though it wasn't receiving power - just sat there dead.  On third try, everything worked fine.  On fourth and fifth tries, it fired up but would not accept commands.  Sixth try, it was dead.  Seventh try everything worked fine.  I also tested both my track and his with my multi-meter, but track was receiving 18v even when engine seemed dead.  Also, my R16 engine continues to work perfectly on my layout and the one on which I tested the Southern loco last night. 

 

 

 

And there you have it, the problem has been isolated.

 

Perhaps it's time to sent it to eBay .....

Is that where old engines go to die?

 

eBay was the presumed fate of a few of the locomotives which found their way from the hovels of east Bay to the Cabin Lake & Western ... and from there to a repair facility for a diagnosis and fix.

 

I got a kick out of one guy I talked to about repairing one locomotive with when his first question was asked ...

 

"Does it work?" ...