New Dreyfuss #5447 (2331412) Derails on O72 switches (turnout) and on O72 curves

Try running the locomotive through without the tender.  It will respond after you address it. You just won't have sound.

If the engine goes through alone O.K. then I would go after the drawbar on both the engine and tender.  See if it's binding, needs lube etc.

Also take note how much slack is in the IR. Wires on the drawbar.

Thanks, Rick, I'll try that.

Also check the gauge or wheel width on the pilot and trailing truck.   Make sure they are spaced correctly.    Just helped a friend with a similar problem on an older loco,  the spacing on the pilot wheels was too narrow.

Vhubbard, I'll include that also. Thanks.

Rick/Vhubbard, I ran the loco w/o the tender and I had no issues.  Then I attached the PT Tender and the engine derailed at the first turn to the right.  The draw bar would not traverse far enough to right to allow the engine to stay on the right curve. The engine's draw binds on something when it tries to move to the right hand side of the cab.  However, when I run in the opposite direction, turns to the left do not cause a derail; the engine's half of the draw bar moves to left-hand side of the cab, as far needed to allow the engine/tender to continue w/o issue.  I turned the tender over and the draw bar moves fine in both directions. However, the engine's drawbar binds when it tries to move to the right.   Here's a pic of the rear truck and a video illustrating the problem. I do not know whether there is a way to adjust the engine's rear truck and drawbar, or whether I should just ask for an RMA from Lionel.  Thanks.

@ToledoEd posted:

What about that ground wire? It looks like the drawbar might be hitting it preventing full travel in the slot.

I would try loosening the ground wire screw ,  rotate the connector to the right a bit, maintaining clearance from the wheel  , and retighten.

While your at it,  double check the routing of the wire where it runs over the axle and into the chassis. Make sure there's nothing rubbing or binding there.

I agree with Rick. The ground lug looks like it will hit the post the drawbar is mounted too.

Pete

Thanks, Gents. I’ll do that. 🤞

@Norton posted:

I agree with Rick. The ground lug looks like it will hit the post the drawbar is mounted too.

Pete

That's a bad place for that or is there no other spot to tuck it in or around Pete?

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

That's a bad place for that or is there no other spot to tuck it in or around Pete?

Most engines don’t even need it but it appears it can be rotated out of the way.

Pete

I rotated the ground wire.  Put it back on. The engine went around the layout twice, but then same problem on the O72  curves.  I looked to be sure the wires were not binding. They are not. There's something 'off' about how the draw bar/truck works. Running around to the right on the layout so the engine is turning left, and it runs fine, no derailments at any speed. Flip it  direction, and it will derail. Head scratcher.  There is probably a way to 'adjust' the truck/drawbar but I can't find anyway to to that by just turning the engine over.  The only thing I can think of is to remove the shell. I'm not going to do that and run the risk of voiding the warranty.  I don't see any alternative to sending it back to Lionel...agree???

Ed, can the truck move the same distance side to side? If the truck is hitting something it will also prevent the drawbar from moving the full distance too.

Pete

The answer is: it depends. Really. On the track, the rear truck does not derail when the engine does. however, when I have it shell down in the cradle on the workbench, it will stop does, but for the life of me I can't see where it hangs up.  It's frustrating. In the cradle I can lift truck a bit and it and the drawbar will swing left and right.  When I hooked up to the Big Boy tender, I had no problems running in either direction, so I suspect it may be the dynamic of the Kinematic coupler and my engine's cursed rear coupler that's the issue.  I just finished running it  (engine and PT Tender) on the layout around the loop making left turns, with the four 20th Century Limited  passenger cars attached and it ran fine (well, except one coupler on a passenger car would open randomly while in transit.... As Roseanne Roseanna Danna would say: "It's always something!".   I'm going to sleep on it and try again tomorrow to diagnose the issue.  Frankly, I'm not optimistic.  I do appreciate everyone's help. 

Loved Rosanne Rossanna Danna both the character and Gilda and she was right, its always something.

Pete

"Never mind"

@ToledoEd posted:

When I hooked up to the Big Boy tender, I had no problems running in either direction, so I suspect it may be the dynamic of the Kinematic coupler and my engine's cursed rear coupler that's the issue.

If the it runs fine with the bigboy tender. Then it's time to look at the kinematic mechanism on the Dreyfuss tender.

These kinematic drawbars are a nice feature , but their added complexity opens the door for potential problems a traditional drawbar would never have.

I have 2 of the newer PRR locos from Lionel . Both of them needed attention on the tender kinematic mechanism.

On one, the wires were poorly routed to the i.r. sensor on the drawbar. In one direction there was not enough slack for full travel of the drawbar.

On the other. The kinematic slot had no lubrication, and the drawbar would hang up in one direction.

Get some rest tonite. Then grab a full cup of coffee tommorow, and some patience if you have any left.😉 Hopefully, if you flip that tender over and examine its operation you may find the  issue.

Lionel techs don't have a magic wand. They will be doing the same process of elimination your doing here.

Hang in there Ed,  You will figure it out..... PATIENCE, PATIENCE,  have lunch, enjoy a scotch with the lovely red head,  back to the bench...  and wala'....😃

This is just one of those things where finding the thing that is the PITA is not easily seen. Just need those who have the greater knowledge of where things sit, asked questions, and try, try again before this bugger reveals itself. My late Uncle Eddie would do this exact thing by working out what it isn't, and finding out what it is. We'll get there.

Well, this morning I tried again, and....engine and tender traveled around the layout at various speeds for 10 minutes, no problem.  I did 'wiggle' the tender's Kinematic coupler and it seemed to hang up once, but right after that I hooked it up and, it ran fine.  Frankly, it makes me even more anxious to run the pair because I have no idea if it's "fixed" or I'm going to get a fireworks display at some random moment.  I'm just going to run it periodically over the next few days and if it behaves, well, good!  I will bookmark this thread for the future though.  Just in case.   Thanks for your help.

Ted, I didn't have a scotch, but I did have  few Oreos and Nancy and I watched the latest episode of "Reacher!" 

@ToledoEd posted:

Well, this morning I tried again, and....engine and tender traveled around the layout at various speeds for 10 minutes, no problem.  I did 'wiggle' the tender's Kinematic coupler and it seemed to hang up once, but right after that I hooked it up and, it ran fine.  Frankly, it makes me even more anxious to run the pair because I have no idea if it's "fixed" or I'm going to get a fireworks display at some random moment.  I'm just going to run it periodically over the next few days and if it behaves, well, good!  I will bookmark this thread for the future though.  Just in case.   Thanks for your help.

Ted, I didn't have a scotch, but I did have  few Oreos and Nancy and I watched the latest episode of "Reacher!"

I love that show.... Good choice'.... and so glad your engine is running... maybe it just needed to break in ...

Ed - I'm running into the same issue with the new Dreyfuss.  Runs fine counter-clockwise but derailing on 072 going clockwise.  I'm just catching up on this thread and I'll look at the tender coupler a bit closer as well.  Thanks for starting this thread.  And Reacher is awesome...

Note the lube marks. Travels fully in one direction but not the other.

> Is the wire getting pinched between the drawbar and the copper pickup strip? If so, relocate it.

> Is the washer under the e-clip catching on the copper strip?

Dave

will do...thanks Dave!

Daryl, thanks for joining.  Although it runs fine now, I've lost confidence it will be reliable in the future.   I'm going to check again as Dave suggested. I did move the ground wire as RickO suggested.  I'm not sure if it's related, but it started to run fine after the 'wiggle' I mentioned above of the Kinematic coupler on the tender .  Maybe that did it?  Good luck and keep us posted please.

Ed - I spoke to Pat at Pat’s Trains this morning since I ordered the engine from him.  He said one other customer had a similar issue.  If I understood him correctly, he suggested removing the washer from underneath the c-clip under the rear truck on the engine.  I did that and it seems to have helped so far.  I had an issue one time but that may have been track-related.  I ran it for several loops in both directions without incident.  I’ll continue to evaluate and report back…

Daryl, that’s interesting. Since it seems to have worked I’ll do the same. Thanks.

@Quarter Gauger 48 posted:

I love that show.... Good choice'.... and so glad your engine is running... maybe it just needed to break in ...

Ted, I’ve read all the Lee Child books. Great series. As for the engine, I guess it was a test of nerves, which one of us would ‘break’ first!😂.

@DGuill posted:

Ed - I spoke to Pat at Pat’s Trains this morning since I ordered the engine from him.  He said one other customer had a similar issue.  If I understood him correctly, he suggested removing the washer from underneath the c-clip under the rear truck on the engine.  I did that and it seems to have helped so far.  I had an issue one time but that may have been track-related.  I ran it for several loops in both directions without incident.  I’ll continue to evaluate and report back…

Daryl, I've been running the engine and tender since my last input  on 7 Jan.  No problems, but then I hitched up the 4 21" 20th Century Limited passenger cars and it started derailing.  So, I pulled the washer and now it's running w/o incident.  Thanks for sharing the info you received from Pat's Trains.  Let's hope that's all it was.  Take care, and happy railroading...

Ed - I followed up with Pat and I misunderstood his suggestion.  Rather than the washer at the rear of the truck, he said to remove the c-clip from the top side of the truck half-way up the shaft.  I'm testing that now.  Pulling the washer was working, but I've put that back in and took the c-clip out.  Maybe either change helps...

Daryl, thanks for the update.  I'll wait to see if the problem returns.  If so, I'll put the washer back and pull the c-clip you identified. What fun!

I will say the washer was a bit easier to remove than the c-clip....at least for me...I'll give it a try this weekend.

This may sound too easy, and I’m sure you guys have already done this. I have some 21 inch passenger cars with kinematic couplers and I was having the same issues. I loaded them with lots grease and it solved the problems.

@DGuill posted:

I will say the washer was a bit easier to remove than the c-clip....at least for me...I'll give it a try this weekend.

Daryl, have you had a chance to test the fix replacing the washer and removing the c-clip?  I've not had a chance to do it yet. Guests.

Ed - I ran a few loops each direction without issue so far.  Then got side-tracked too....

Daryl, thanks. I've been running it with the original fix (removing the washer) without incident.  I've decided to leave well enough alone.  If the derailing shows up again, I'll take out the c-clip.  Thanks again for sticking with me and posting the fixes. 

No problem - hope it was a simple fix!