New Layout Build- Final tie coloring added (Pics added 4-15-17)

Very tired indeed! it also shows that the pieces of wood are solid!

It's a fantastic work! 

jpv in France

jpv69 posted:

Very tired indeed! it also shows that the pieces of wood are solid!

It's a fantastic work! 

jpv in France

 

Thank you, yeah he is just exhausted...  And yeah it's solid, and frankly over built but I got the 2X4's incredibly cheap so I put them to use.  

Chris,

Thanks for the photos!  It's looking very good!  With the storage shelves, what will your approach to wiring be?  I want to use the underneath of my layout for storage, and with an open Lgirder approach, I can do a lot of wiring from above, as I did in the past.  My concern is once covered with scenery, how will I easily trouble shoot problems with storage shelves.  I have thought of making roll out pallets for storage, but don't know yet.

Mark, my guess is the shelves are spaced so he can remove enough items to then lay on the shelves when he needs to work underneath, just like you would laying on a dolly under a car. I get dizzy doing that these days, so I also intend to use some kind of rolling shelf platform if I decide to add storage.

Layout is looking good Chris, I like the storage idea, and if you ever have to trouble shoot anything you have a 13 year old to help you move somethings around.

Mark, you can build the same thing, you would just have to move everything by yourself.

Mark Boyce posted:

Chris,

Thanks for the photos!  It's looking very good!  With the storage shelves, what will your approach to wiring be?  I want to use the underneath of my layout for storage, and with an open Lgirder approach, I can do a lot of wiring from above, as I did in the past.  My concern is once covered with scenery, how will I easily trouble shoot problems with storage shelves.  I have thought of making roll out pallets for storage, but don't know yet.

Hi Mark,

          As Dave stated the shelving is spaced out so that I can lay on it if need be but the track is going to be up on risers in this area so the wiring will be done right underneath the track on the side that faces the viewing isle.  Once the scenery begins I am going to make removable sections so that I can access a big portion of the wiring in that area as well as other areas while standing or even sitting on a stool.  I am going to use pink rigid foam insulation for these panels, and while there will be some shrinkage over time I am only using it in the front where I would need to " pull it out" and there are ways to compensate for the shrinkage that will occur.  My main goal here is to be sure that I can access as much as possible on the entire layout after the scenery is in.  The insulation can be painted and carved to form some amazing terrain variations and will lend itself perfectly to my needs, it's not cheap which is why it will only be used as access panels at areas of wiring junctions and turnouts ect.

mike g. posted:

Layout is looking good Chris, I like the storage idea, and if you ever have to trouble shoot anything you have a 13 year old to help you move somethings around.

Mark, you can build the same thing, you would just have to move everything by yourself.

Thank you Mike.  The storage shelves will also be built in other areas of the layout, but in those cases it will be for storing locomotives, passenger and freight cars that are not in use and those will be just deep enough for that stuff so they will not be as deep as these storage shelves are.  I am planning on making plexi-glass "doors" to protect the equipment not in use from damage or the small hands of my nephews.  I am also going to incorporate a built in work bench area for modeling projects, weathering ect.   

N&W Class J posted:

Mark Boyce posted:

Chris,

Thanks for the photos!  It's looking very good!  With the storage shelves, what will your approach to wiring be?  I want to use the underneath of my layout for storage, and with an open Lgirder approach, I can do a lot of wiring from above, as I did in the past.  My concern is once covered with scenery, how will I easily trouble shoot problems with storage shelves.  I have thought of making roll out pallets for storage, but don't know yet.

Hi Mark,

          As Dave stated the shelving is spaced out so that I can lay on it if need be but the track is going to be up on risers in this area so the wiring will be done right underneath the track on the side that faces the viewing isle.  Once the scenery begins I am going to make removable sections so that I can access a big portion of the wiring in that area as well as other areas while standing or even sitting on a stool.  I am going to use pink rigid foam insulation for these panels, and while there will be some shrinkage over time I am only using it in the front where I would need to " pull it out" and there are ways to compensate for the shrinkage that will occur.  My main goal here is to be sure that I can access as much as possible on the entire layout after the scenery is in.  The insulation can be painted and carved to form some amazing terrain variations and will lend itself perfectly to my needs, it's not cheap which is why it will only be used as access panels at areas of wiring junctions and turnouts ect.

Chris,

I like how you are thinking.  I actually stated something similar in the topic on my layout design which anyone can access in the link in my signature.  That is exactly what I was thinking of to make wiring access built into the scenery.  

Now all I need is a thirteen-year-old around to help with the work!    On second thought, maybe I am better by myself; we went through the thirteen-year-old stage more than once!  

Dave,

I am with you, laying on a dolly doing work is something that I'm not interested in doing anymore either.  sitting on a roll-around seat I have isn't so bad.  As you know, I want to have some shelves for extra rolling stock, so Chris' layout construction is interesting me.

Thank you both for addressing my questions.  Working together across the miles, I'm sure all of us will build better layouts than in the old days when we did all our thinking solo.

Mark Boyce posted:

Chris,

I like how you are thinking.  I actually stated something similar in the topic on my layout design which anyone can access in the link in my signature.  That is exactly what I was thinking of to make wiring access built into the scenery.  Now all I need is a thirteen-year-old around to help with the work!    On second thought, maybe I am better by myself; we went through the thirteen-year-old stage more than once!  

Dave,

I am with you, laying on a dolly doing work is something that I'm not interested in doing anymore either.  sitting on a roll-around seat I have isn't so bad.  As you know, I want to have some shelves for extra rolling stock, so Chris' layout construction is interesting me.

Thank you both for addressing my questions.  Working together across the miles, I'm sure all of us will build better layouts than in the old days when we did all our thinking solo.

Hey great minds think alike .  I just like the idea of being able to get at things later, a simple idea and it will work great for both of us.    I must say with regards to your last statement that truer words have never been spoken.  The sharing of ideas, problems, solutions and different approaches to this hobby is what makes it great, there are so many ways to build, model and problem solve.  I have no doubt that if we put our heads together we can all build some great layouts.

So great seeing you building a layout Chris! 

Industrial Models posted:

So great seeing you building a layout Chris! 

Thank you, I'm having fun with it.  I just ordered some track for the areas that I will not be hand laying and I'm working on the sub roadbed currently.

Don't forget to drill some large holes through your braces now for all the wiring we will be doing :-)

I have a plan for that, I think it will make things a bit easier...underline think.

Chris...finish off that space where you photo'ed your son laying...make it as nice as possible, and use it as a hiding place for yourself for when the little lady figures out how much this all costs. Remember the Seinfeld show, and how George built a hiding space inside his desk ...took naps in there etc...go for it buddy...

Bob

And don't forget to get a helmet if she has any rolling pins or skillets!! 

flanger posted:

Chris...finish off that space where you photo'ed your son laying...make it as nice as possible, and use it as a hiding place for yourself for when the little lady figures out how much this all costs. Remember the Seinfeld show, and how George built a hiding space inside his desk ...took naps in there etc...go for it buddy...

Bob

Ha ha....yeah tell me about it...thank god I got all the 2x4's cheap.......

rtr12 posted:

And don't forget to get a helmet if she has any rolling pins or skillets!! 

Maybe a lock on the basement door to....

Spent some time beginning to cut out the sub roadbed, much more to do and right now what I have cut out is just laying on the benchwork.  It will get put on top of the risers shortly as I wanted a nice long section for leveling/grade purposes. 

I began leveling the sub roadbed today, there is still a lot to do but I'm off to a good start...  More supports will be added since I have plenty of wood left...

"still a lot to do"     The Master of Understatement, Chris.  

But I still reckon that this part is one of the most enjoyable.

Great looking carpentry!

Peter

Looks great, Chris!  Are you putting cleats in at the top of the risers?  It looks like not.  I have read some folks do that so you aren't drilling down parallel into the grain of the riser.  I don't think it is necessary if you drill a pilot hole so the riser doesn't split.  Any thoughts on that from anyone?

3/32" predrilled pilot hole with a #1 square drive trim screw for end grain attachment works for me. 

For inclined risers I chop  saw the mounting face of the cleats to match the grade angle so as not to pull a flat spot.  The flat spot can manifest it's self as a very slight vertical "S" curve.  When a loco under strain hits a flat spot it can stall on the subsequent "S" bump as the incline continues.

That is with average quality 1/2".  You will not flex 3/4" Birch.  Even at that, when not angle cutting riser cleats consider toeing in your screw into the high corner of the cleat.

Tom Tee,

That sounds good.  Avoiding the flat spot is something that many modelers would overlook!  I had forgotten about it until you brought it up.  I would probably have cut and secured a bunch of risers, then realized I went through the same problem on my last layout.  I certainly can learn from mistakes, then forget and have to relearn all over again.  Thank you!!

MaxSouthOz posted:

"still a lot to do"     The Master of Understatement, Chris.  

But I still reckon that this part is one of the most enjoyable.

Ha ha....yeah just a bit of an understatement... 

Mark Boyce posted:

Looks great, Chris!  Are you putting cleats in at the top of the risers?  It looks like not.  I have read some folks do that so you aren't drilling down parallel into the grain of the riser.  I don't think it is necessary if you drill a pilot hole so the riser doesn't split.  Any thoughts on that from anyone?

Thank you Mark, no I am not using cleats.  I first make sure that the top of the riser is perfectly flush with the bottom of the sub roadbed and then I pre-drill with a countersinking bit and when driving the screws I make sure to just snug up the screws, you don't want to over tighten them and create a depression.  With using the 3/4 sanded-ply and pre drilling I am not having any problems this way.  And also as Tom has stated above, cutting your risers to match the incline is a great idea, you always want to have the top of that riser matching up to the sub roadbed perfectly to avoid flat spots/valleys that can occur. 

Peter-  Thank you..I enjoy the carpentry part of the build a lot.

Chris,

Excellent!  Once I thought about it, I never saw the need for the cleats; but I am no carpenter either.  I always drilled with a countersink bit in the past.  I know some folks have used drywall screws, and didn't bother countersinking holes.  To get the screwtop flush, I wonder if that pulls the roadbed down a little too tight as you warned against.

Mark Boyce posted:

Chris,

 I know some folks have used drywall screws, and didn't bother countersinking holes.  To get the screwtop flush, I wonder if that pulls the roadbed down a little too tight as you warned against.

On my old layout in areas that I had used 1/2" ply that is exactly what happened, it basically "cupped" a small area around the screw head but that said I also didn't pay much attention to making sure the tops of the risers were level at that time .  This time around I chose 3/4" ply which is much stronger as you know, and that coupled with pre-drilling and countersinking and insuring a level top to my risers has given me a perfectly flat sub roadbed surface that is properly supported and will allow me to run my wiring in a very easy to reach location.  That 3/4 ply weighs just slightly less than a 59' Cadillac but it was worth it to me.     

I'm blown away by your progress.  Really enjoying this thread and learning a lot.

Thank you.

Yes Chris that confirms what I was thinking.  Buy the '59 Cadillac for good roadbed!  :-)

Thanks guys.  

Mark if I'm ever able to buy a 59 caddy it won't be for roadbed....

Chris, a thought if I may.  looking at your shelf frame work was a flash back for me.  i was requested to rewire an existing layout with shelves positioned such as yours will be.  My first thought was, 'nice".  but I soon  soured on them.  The shelves were somewhat OK for working in one static place, but them were a real restriction for following or pulling wire.  Plus they required my back to assume uncomfortable (READ PAINFUL) positions getting in and out and I could not use my rolling chair. 

For under layout storage I use stackable shelving with custom cut pillars to efficiently use the vertical space on each level sitting on furniture rollers so as to provide a  clear floor space for under layout access.  4  pieces of 1 1/2" dowel available in 1' increments at HD  act as a male plug to hold the plastic tubes on the dollies.

I really like your removable foam panel idea in the foreground.

The benefit of using cleats is the ability of driving screws up into the bottom of the subroadbed.  That way you will always be able to adjust the grade with out disturbing the track.

Consider using deck construction screws instead of drywall screws.  Drywall screws can snap making adjustments a pain.

Tom Tee posted:

The benefit of using cleats is the ability of driving screws up into the bottom of the subroadbed.  That way you will always be able to adjust the grade with out disturbing the track.

Tom, I've had to move entire risers so cleats are at least something to consider. Chris's layout plan looks nice and simple and on one level so his risk of this would be way less than my situation. Like you mentioned, I also put every shelf stack on wheels and has saved me many times.

Chris, it looks like great progress. You'll be ballasting track in no time. Thanks for sharing all of this with us.

Tom and Christopher,

Great advice from you both that makes good sense to me.  Yes, I forgot about driving the screws from underneath!!  Thank you!!

Tom Tee posted:

Chris, a thought if I may.  looking at your shelf frame work was a flash back for me.  i was requested to rewire an existing layout with shelves positioned such as yours will be.  My first thought was, 'nice".  but I soon  soured on them.  The shelves were somewhat OK for working in one static place, but them were a real restriction for following or pulling wire.  Plus they required my back to assume uncomfortable (READ PAINFUL) positions getting in and out and I could not use my rolling chair. 

For under layout storage I use stackable shelving with custom cut pillars to efficiently use the vertical space on each level sitting on furniture rollers so as to provide a  clear floor space for under layout access.  4  pieces of 1 1/2" dowel available in 1' increments at HD  act as a male plug to hold the plastic tubes on the dollies.

I really like your removable foam panel idea in the foreground.

Hi Tom,

     The storage shelving that you saw in my earlier photos is only for that area, the rest of the layout that will incorporate additional storage will strictly be for my engines and rolling stock and will only be built deep enough to hold those and as such I will be building those very differently....you'll see when I get to that point...  As for the wiring....  Removable sections of scenery at junction points, turnouts and for access to the tortoise switch machines ect where needed ......and for the rest of the wiring....well lets just say that I have a plan....I could tell you but.....

Tom Tee posted:

The benefit of using cleats is the ability of driving screws up into the bottom of the subroadbed.  That way you will always be able to adjust the grade with out disturbing the track.

Consider using deck construction screws instead of drywall screws.  Drywall screws can snap making adjustments a pain.

When I attached my risers I made sure that the screws were outside the profile of the track and ties so if in the future the need comes to move a riser or replace one all that will be needed will be to remove a small amount of ballast say the size of a quarter...ish in order to unscrew it from above or to install one in a new area and so on, and in order to keep track of where those screws/risers are after the scenery goes in I've taken a photo of each and every one and I am printing all of these out to be kept in a binder down with the layout.   As for adjusting the grades once the track is in and I'm testing everything, it's no harder for me to unscrew the riser from the bench work and adjust up or down then to unscrew from the bench work and/or the cleat.  If an adjustment is needed down the road for some reason after the scenery is in, the same applies, unscrew the riser from the bench work and raise/lower as needed.  If I need to install/move a riser the same applies....not really a big problem.   

Oh I also don't use drywall screws, I use deck screws.

christopher N&W posted:

Tom, I've had to move entire risers so cleats are at least something to consider. Chris's layout plan looks nice and simple and on one level so his risk of this would be way less than my situation. Like you mentioned, I also put every shelf stack on wheels and has saved me many times.

Chris, it looks like great progress. You'll be ballasting track in no time. Thanks for sharing all of this with us.

Thanks Chris, yes the layout is a single level.

Chris, You have the assembly of your roadbed and wiring well thought out!  I think it will work quite well!!

Mark Boyce posted:

Chris, You have the assembly of your roadbed and wiring well thought out!  I think it will work quite well!!

Well time will tell...  But I hope so.