It’s a good move and I too, am glad MTH will continue in some form.
There are a lot of great dealers - of all brands - who benefit from MTH staying in business. Nobody got duped - business plans are dynamic. This is good stuff.
Can they just make another run of the Amtrak Pacific Surfliners. That's all I want. Crazies on ebay want ridiculous prices for them.
This news is quite the joyous occasion, but does leave me with questions:
- Will they be just producing existing products? Or developing new engines/rolling stock as well?
- Will the smaller company fragments be able to keep the market in check against Lionel's 'Pedigree Pricing' ?
- Does "smaller" mean mostly freight rolling stock with the occasional engines in VERY SELECT paint schemes? As a Canadian in O-scale, this is most concerning (old MTH had a better track record than Lionel or Atlas in this).
- With Atlas purchasing a majority of 70' passenger tooling (MTH still having 60' and lower?), will passenger cars still be a priority?
- If there is no full cataloguing for this... smaller MTH child company (mostly only "special announcements"), do they plan to eventually regrow the company back to its original size, grandeur, and scale of offerings? Obviously there is no way to know, but it will be interesting to see.
- Will the new DCS arm prioritize the expansion of the DCS system into the hobby industry through licensing like in the case of Atlas (a la Lionel with TMCC I mean)? Like going after DCC's stranglehold on the HO market?
- Steam locomotives were not listed on the Atlas purchase (or if there was any other purchase) soooo... any chance of seeing another U1F locomotive in the future? This last one is mostly a 'personal-wish-for-my-collection' type thing haha
I look forward and remain hopeful for the good things in this new MTH's future (and many more Canadian road name purchases as well for years to come!).
This is indeed good news for consumers and dealers alike. Keep looking for new and exciting custom runs from us too. We have several on the drawing board. We are working with Atlas O too.
It is wait and see for me. If they come out with something I like, I will buy it. Already ordered the Morton switcher. There may be a Morton caboose coming in the future.
@Madockawando posted:We have all been played like a fiddle... and we all love every bit of it 😆
Not moi. I got tired of being played by MTH many years ago. I haven't ordered anything new, from the MTH catalog, in years.
Steve
If Midge at MTH stays on in the parts department, MTH-ers will be well served at her desk. Carry on ...
Mike Mottler
Owner of only ONE MTH loco and many of their iconic accessories, but I'm glad to hear the products it won't soon be orphanized.
Good news!! DCS lives on! 
Hoping the H10-44 switch engines stay around !
fantastic loco !
I have been wondering whether the new MTH will be remaking any of the big accessories such as Mel's Diner, the car wash, fire station, etc.? I haven't seen them listed in catalogues lately; but then again, I may have missed them.
Also, I've been wondering what will happen or has happened with MTH's Rugged Rails, HO, S, and European line ups? These four line ups seem to have disappeared during the past few years. Again, I may have missed announcements; however, the only announcements that I've seen have about sales of O gauge tooling.
@RockvilleBear posted:Also, I've been wondering what will happen or has happened with MTH's Rugged Rails, HO, S, and European line ups? These four line ups seem to have disappeared during the past few years.
HO and S were sold to ScaleTrains, a maker of highly detailed HO.
Rusty
Where does Tinplate fit in? Or did someone buy that tooling? There is still a market.
Sounds like great news for all fans of MTH Products.
This reminds me of what the owner of my local hobby store told me a long time ago. They were early MTH authorized dealers but stopped when MTH changed their policy and had some sort of minimum dollar amount you had to purchase each year to be a dealer ( they were "pre-selling" their production, putting much of the monetary risk on the dealer. ) Now they seem to be taking that further and producing only custom orders for dealers without a catalog. I guess if they can get enough dealers to agree on something new to be produced, it'll get produced, which is great for PRR, Santa Fe, UP, NYC modelers, for those of us who want a CNJ Babyface Baldwin, not so much.
@Mike H Mottler posted:If Midge at MTH stays on in the parts department, MTH-ers will be well served at her desk. Carry on ...
Mike Mottler
Owner of only ONE MTH loco and many of their iconic accessories, but I'm glad to hear the products it won't soon be orphanized.
Sorry, Midge is not part of the new MTH Parts.
@Mike W. posted:Where does Tinplate fit in within this? Or did someone buy that tooling? There is still a market.
Haven’t heard anything about tinplate but I’d be willing to bet MTH still owns it. Who knows you might see a limited run of something in tinplate but I wouldn’t count on a whole catalog of tinplate being produced.
It is great news that MTH will continue on in some capacity.
The full news release on the MTH website answers several of the questions asked above, and offers some other interesting foreshadowing, including these nuggets:
“Because our new, smaller location offers no room for inventory of trains, all new items announced for 2021 and beyond are being built-to-order.” (There’s the going-forward business model)
“All M.T.H. items will continue to carry a limited warranty, though defective items delivered after June 1, 2021 may only be eligible for a refund from the M.T.H. Authorized Retailer from which it was purchased if that retailer doesn't offer in-house warranty service.” (sounds like a change to me)
“At this point, approximately 20% of the O Gauge tooling portfolio, including the Atlas purchases, have been sold to date. The as-of-now unnamed buyers of the other O Gauge tooling will be revealed later this Summer.” (My guess is another distributor has acquired the rights to market & distribute the steam products)
All-in-all sounds to me like the product line will narrow to the more popular items. Makes sense to me given the state of the market. Good luck to “new” MTH!
@DylTrains posted:This news is quite the joyous occasion, but does leave me with questions:
Like going after DCC's stranglehold on the HO market?
DCC is just a non-proprietary standard. How is that a stranglehold? It actually makes the locomotives compatible across the various proprietary implementations of that standard (Digitrax, NCE, Roco, ECOS, etc). If vendors want to add bells and whistles to their systems' interfaces, there is nothing stopping them. There are other non-DCC systems available but eventually, their decoders wind up supporting DCC ie Ring Engineering, Bluerail, and DCS. It's nice to not have to have two or more systems just to have loco buying options.
Brendan
@JET posted:This reminds me of what the owner of my local hobby store told me a long time ago. They were early MTH authorized dealers but stopped when MTH changed their policy and had some sort of minimum dollar amount you had to purchase each year to be a dealer ( they were "pre-selling" their production, putting much of the monetary risk on the dealer. ) Now they seem to be taking that further and producing only custom orders for dealers without a catalog. I guess if they can get enough dealers to agree on something new to be produced, it'll get produced, which is great for PRR, Santa Fe, UP, NYC modelers, for those of us who want a CNJ Babyface Baldwin, not so much.
The New “Mini H” company doesn’t sound big enough to have its own marketing and research department. In a sense, those functions have been outsourced to a small group of active dealers. This is totally a bottom up production schedule. Those dealers are deciding what will be produced. It is an interesting concept with both risks and opportunities.
It helps Mini H with reducing their costs with no marketing and no inventory at the warehouse. It helps dealers because they get to sell the products they want.
The risks:
- Very limited product
- road names may be regionally focused around the big dealers or only over done national road names like NYC, Santa Fe, Pennsylvania.
- Customers may tire of the constant barrage of emails with “New Very limited production, get your orders in by the end of the month”. How do you plan your purchases and train budget over the year?
- No catalogs will hide just how small the new Mini H company really is compared to it’s predecessor
@Chris Lonero posted:Haven’t heard anything about tinplate but I’d be willing to bet MTH still owns it. Who knows you might see a limited run of something in tinplate but I wouldn’t count on a whole catalog of tinplate being produced.
It will be produced only if a dealer or group of dealers want it to be produced. Mini H will no longer be making production decisions.
The good news for those that do want Tinplate is that there is a path. Go directly to one of the Mini H dealers that have been very active the past few months and ask them. It can be done if you can get enough people to commit!
@modeltrainsparts posted:I didn't read everything Mike or MTH Trains said, BUT if it was directly and specifically advertised as a "Going Out of Business Sale" he could end up facing either a very big fine from the NYS Attorney General and/or be prohibited from doing business (shipping to his resellers) in the State of NY. From the few things i read it appears that MTH didn't directly say he was going out of business per se, but he appears to be skating about 1/4" inside the law.
Don't worry. Letitia James will be all over it.
With respect to the news, happy to hear it. Good for MTH fans and the hobby.
I’m sure this news, “Breaking News”. MTH Lives, (although in a different alignment) will help many dealers staying in business, and keep model train folks Happy. I’m so happy to hear this news. Happy Railroading Everyone
I haven't seen anything to lead me to believe that we will see any truly "new" product - just more of the same stuff with different paint jobs. IMO, that's how MTH oversaturated the tinplate market, and it will eventually catch up with them.
Also, Edelman and Foster aren't far from retirement age (similar age to MW, IIRC) - what happens in a few years when they are ready to spend more time on the golf course? I hope they're just buying time while looking for a buyer that will continue the company on a long-term basis.
@leapinlarry posted:I’m sure this news, “Breaking News”. MTH Lives, (although in a different alignment) will help many dealers staying in business, and keep model train folks Happy. I’m so happy to hear this news. Happy Railroading Everyone
Unfortunately it's too late for one of my favorites.
I am glad to see that some form of MTH will still exist. The MTH products were well-priced, and very well done.
If I understand the new business model correctly- there will be several smaller entities owned by past MTH employees. No doubt they are paying for their share of the "old" MTH over time, and Mike will therefore get his money over time as well. I understand this- Mike wanted to get out and enjoy retirement (like so many of US do!).
Most "employee-owned" companies, run by veterans of the original business, are very successful. That success might be because they know the "nuts and bolts" of their portion of the operation BETTER than can a single owner or CEO. They control their costs, and operate in a smaller, more controllable and focused business.
It DOES seem like the "traditional" way of doing business (catalogs, smaller brick and mortar retailers) are being moved to the back burner in favor of selling through mass distributors. Also, it seems like MTH is moving toward being a subcontractor for Atlas and other lines, selling them DCS products (like ERR has done for years, even when part of Lionel). Didn't Lionel do this as well, when they moved to NC, downsized their home office operation, and off-loaded much of the parts operation to North Lima Locomotive Works, and finally sold ERR?
Survival of competition is better for the consumer. I wish all the best.
Do we know yet that Rich F. and Andy E. are going to still be part of the new "MTH?" Just curious as they both always seemed very pragmatic, even tempered and collegial.
There is a change in the warranty policies. From the MTH website:
"Warranty Terms On Products Produced After June 1, 2021
Items shipped after May 31, 2021, will carry a one-year warranty from the date of manufacture for the MTH Authorized Retailer who sold the product. Any defective items should be returned to the dealer where purchased. If the dealer has trained service techs, they can offer to repair the locomotive (MTH will supply warranty parts as needed free of charge. If parts are not available a refund will be given to the dealer). MTH will no longer provide repair service on any products at its corporate headquarters. If an item is defective and cannot be repaired, it needs to be returned to the original purchasing dealer and the end-user can obtain a refund from the retailer. The original purchasing dealer will then return the item to MTH for credit. Customers may want to request that their items are tested by the retailer prior to taking the item home. All items are tested by M.T.H. Electric Trains prior to shipment from our production facilities.
M.T.H. products purchased within one year from the date of manufacture are warrantied against defects in material or workmanship, excluding wear items such as light bulbs, pick-up rollers, batteries, smoke unit wicks, and traction tires. M.T.H. Authorized Retailers will replace, refund, or credit the defective item if:
- The item was manufactured within the previous year
- It was purchased from M.T.H. or an M.T.H. Distributor by an M.T.H. Authorized Retailer
IMPORTANT NOTE: Transportation costs incurred by the customer are not covered under this warranty.
Purchases from eBay or other online auction or selling sites will NOT be covered under warranty unless the seller is an M.T.H. Authorized Retailer.
Per Mike Wolf's retirement announcement letter sent June 9 of last year outlining the service policy for the prior year's sales, that policy still stands. Items can be repaired by MTH's Service Center Network and the new parts business will provide needed parts to the service centers free of charge. The new warranty terms outlined above do not apply to products shipped prior to May 31, 2021.
Determining The Date Of Manufacture
All items will be considered an Out-of-Warranty repair if that item did not fail within one year from the month and year of manufacture. The Date of Manufacture can be determined by reviewing an item's detail page on the M.T.H. Website."
No repairs at Mini H HQs, no warehouse, no catalogs, no club, reduced tooling. But it lives!
@Landsteiner posted:There is a change in the warranty policies. From the MTH website:
"Warranty Terms On Products Produced After June 1, 2021
Items shipped after May 31, 2021, will carry a one-year warranty from the date of manufacture for the MTH Authorized Retailer who sold the product. Any defective items should be returned to the dealer where purchased. If the dealer has trained service techs, they can offer to repair the locomotive (MTH will supply warranty parts as needed free of charge. If parts are not available a refund will be given to the dealer). MTH will no longer provide repair service on any products at its corporate headquarters. If an item is defective and cannot be repaired, it needs to be returned to the original purchasing dealer and the end-user can obtain a refund from the retailer. The original purchasing dealer will then return the item to MTH for credit. Customers may want to request that their items are tested by the retailer prior to taking the item home. All items are tested by M.T.H. Electric Trains prior to shipment from our production facilities.
M.T.H. products purchased within one year from the date of manufacture are warrantied against defects in material or workmanship, excluding wear items such as light bulbs, pick-up rollers, batteries, smoke unit wicks, and traction tires. M.T.H. Authorized Retailers will replace, refund, or credit the defective item if:
- The item was manufactured within the previous year
- It was purchased from M.T.H. or an M.T.H. Distributor by an M.T.H. Authorized Retailer
IMPORTANT NOTE: Transportation costs incurred by the customer are not covered under this warranty.
Purchases from eBay or other online auction or selling sites will NOT be covered under warranty unless the seller is an M.T.H. Authorized Retailer.
Per Mike Wolf's retirement announcement letter sent June 9 of last year outlining the service policy for the prior year's sales, that policy still stands. Items can be repaired by MTH's Service Center Network and the new parts business will provide needed parts to the service centers free of charge. The new warranty terms outlined above do not apply to products shipped prior to May 31, 2021.
Determining The Date Of Manufacture
All items will be considered an Out-of-Warranty repair if that item did not fail within one year from the month and year of manufacture. The Date of Manufacture can be determined by reviewing an item's detail page on the M.T.H. Website."
I guess this will make sure that dealers don't over order. You don't want anything with a 1 year from manufacturing date sitting on a shelf. As the warranty says... "Customers may want to request that their items are tested by the retailer prior to taking the item home."
Then again this has been my policy all along.
@MartyE posted:I guess this will make sure that dealers don't over order. You don't want anything with a 1 year from manufacturing date sitting on a shelf. As the warranty says... "Customers may want to request that their items are tested by the retailer prior to taking the item home."
Then again this has been my policy all along.
Right. For those of us Authorized MTH Retailers that are also MTH Authorized Service Centers and NASC's, will continue to support warranty as well as out-of-warranty repairs for the items we sell. Nothing has changed as far as we are concerned.
@Brendan posted:DCC is just a non-proprietary standard. How is that a stranglehold? It actually makes the locomotives compatible across the various proprietary implementations of that standard (Digitrax, NCE, Roco, ECOS, etc). If vendors want to add bells and whistles to their systems' interfaces, there is nothing stopping them. There are other non-DCC systems available but eventually, their decoders wind up supporting DCC ie Ring Engineering, Bluerail, and DCS. It's nice to not have to have two or more systems just to have loco buying options.
Brendan
As you point out, DCC is an industry standard that the NMRA came up with, it is basically what they call in the world of tech "open standard", it is much like the Linux operating system that runs most of the servers in the world these days. There are basic command sequences and operations defined in it, then extensions can be added to it by a manufacturer. The key thing is that a DCC controlled engine can be controlled by any number of DCC control systems manufacturers make, as compared to Legacy/TMCC and DCS that do have a stranglehold (I realize that DCC can control tmcc and legacy engines in a limited fashion, but it isn't the same thing). It was done deliberately, to stop the fragmentation we had in 3 rail, where you had to buy 2 different control systems to be able to run the engines.
@JR Junction Train & Hobby posted:Right. For those of us Authorized MTH Retailers that are also MTH Authorized Service Centers and NASC's, will continue to support warranty as well as out-of-warranty repairs for the items we sell. Nothing has changed as far as we are concerned.
What was the MTH warranty? I don't recall it being a year from manufacturing before.
I'm hoping for more "Special Runs". I never understood why more train shops weren't doing this. When you do a special run of anything, you are top dog. You are the only store with this item. Anybody that wants it, must come to you. My advice, go for it. You have to spend money to make money.
I was very happy to see that MTH is going to still continue to produce trains for the foreseeable future.I have bought a lot of MTH products over the years and I am glad that we will still be able to get parts if needed and hopefully everything works out well with the restructuring of MTH.
I think what happened was Mike decided to retire, probably made inquiries of other companies if they wanted to buy the whole business, and no one was. I suspect he talked to the employees about buying him out, they didn't want to do it, so he ended up crafting together what we are seeing, where DCS was spun off, where companies bought the rights to some of the product family (Atlas, others), and then employees decided to take the remaining pieces, parts being one spinoff and the new MTH being the other. I think it was an evolving process, Mike might have offered the employees creating the new MTH incentives to take over, like taking a note or something, and it took time. Why did it seemingly take until the 11th hour? For very honest business reasons, Mike was likely hoping that someone would come along and buy the whole business (outside te DCS spinoff), and people wanting to buy parts of MTH waited until they could negotiate a deal for what they wanted at an agreeable price.
There was no deception with this, it is very different than a 'going out of business sale', which is designed to increase sales by suckers thinking the store would be selling stuff at a discount (the electronics stores in Times Square in NYC were famous for this). If Mike had changed his mind and said he decided to keep running MTH, there would be no case for fraud, because if you think about it announcing he was closing MTH down didn't benefit him. And yes, some MTH retailers decided to shut down with the announcement,not knowing what the future would bring, but given that the new MTH's offerings will be a lot less than what it had until now, they likely would have decided to shut down.
As far as the future of MTH "New" goes, I would guess that it will likely be mostly a continuation of the current line, rather than an expansion. Among other things, MTH often took lines that had been premiere and rebrand them later as rail king when better quality offerings hit the upper end line, I suspect that isn't going to happen any more.
My take? Whatever the scope of the new MTH is, it is definitely better than nothing. We can only hope it will come in with new products and such, but if it continues the existing lines it means there is still product there.
@Landsteiner posted:There is a change in the warranty policies. From the MTH website:
"Warranty Terms On Products Produced After June 1, 2021
Items shipped after May 31, 2021, will carry a one-year warranty from the date of manufacture for the MTH Authorized Retailer who sold the product. Any defective items should be returned to the dealer where purchased. If the dealer has trained service techs, they can offer to repair the locomotive (MTH will supply warranty parts as needed free of charge. If parts are not available a refund will be given to the dealer). MTH will no longer provide repair service on any products at its corporate headquarters. If an item is defective and cannot be repaired, it needs to be returned to the original purchasing dealer and the end-user can obtain a refund from the retailer. The original purchasing dealer will then return the item to MTH for credit. Customers may want to request that their items are tested by the retailer prior to taking the item home. All items are tested by M.T.H. Electric Trains prior to shipment from our production facilities.
M.T.H. products purchased within one year from the date of manufacture are warrantied against defects in material or workmanship, excluding wear items such as light bulbs, pick-up rollers, batteries, smoke unit wicks, and traction tires. M.T.H. Authorized Retailers will replace, refund, or credit the defective item if:
- The item was manufactured within the previous year
- It was purchased from M.T.H. or an M.T.H. Distributor by an M.T.H. Authorized Retailer
IMPORTANT NOTE: Transportation costs incurred by the customer are not covered under this warranty.
Purchases from eBay or other online auction or selling sites will NOT be covered under warranty unless the seller is an M.T.H. Authorized Retailer.
Per Mike Wolf's retirement announcement letter sent June 9 of last year outlining the service policy for the prior year's sales, that policy still stands. Items can be repaired by MTH's Service Center Network and the new parts business will provide needed parts to the service centers free of charge. The new warranty terms outlined above do not apply to products shipped prior to May 31, 2021.
Determining The Date Of Manufacture
All items will be considered an Out-of-Warranty repair if that item did not fail within one year from the month and year of manufacture. The Date of Manufacture can be determined by reviewing an item's detail page on the M.T.H. Website."
Million dollar question ? What if you're dealer won't honor the warranty ?
@feet posted:Million dollar question ? What if you're dealer won't honor the warranty ?
Then the "new" MTH shouldn't let them sell their brand of trains.
@feet posted:Million dollar question ? What if you're dealer won't honor the warranty ?
File a complaint with the state department of consumer affairs. When you sell a product if the warranty specifically says you (the dealer) are responsible for warranty reairs, it is a binding contract. You should also let MTH know, refusing to do warranty repairs breaches their agreement with MTH, if they are an authorized dealer that has to be part of the terms of being a dealer.
