Duke, let me suggest holding off until Mike Reagan gets back to us. Maybe if he does not have a better alternative then I suspect many of us would be interested in something made of better material. That way you could reduce or eliminate your cost for these.
Pete
Not a problem waiting on Mike for a solution. I'm a patient man, been waiting on the reissue of the 180 watt power bricks, and the 096 curve fastrack. Hopefully I'll live long enough to see all these things come true.
I sent the Niagara to Mike R. last Monday, Lionel got it on Thursday. When we spoke he said he would get on it - no time frame. Go back to his post as he re built one last year. I think we let Mike and Lionel take a good look at the Engine. The one I sent was relatively new, little to no use. Alex has my other one. If we need to send that one for comparison, I sure Mike will ask. I do know, he is / was swamped on a few things so .........
I am going to wait a reasonable amount of time. I also must consider the length of time this engine has been out, and the fact that Lionel has FINALLY decided to help with THEIR problem child. Not holding my breath on this one.
I've heard nothing back from my earlier post, not even to say not interested. So it's up to Mike at this point to work his magic.
Doug
I was thinking of reach out to him on a progress but my bet is the team is all over doing shows and getting product our the door.
So the best suggestion for the gears so far is bronze. But no one has any idea as to which alloy. Trying to be patient, but I've worked for big corporations before and know the drill. This engine has been out for sixteen years. These problems are not new. We are close to a solution. Please give me the proper alloy, and I will have the gears made.
We just pulled the alloy out of a 1929 Machinery Handbook. Not sure where that handbook went. This stuff is well known by gear manufacturers.
Thinking that the bronze aka gunmetal would be the alloy that includes lead, zinc, and tin. Considering the addition of lead would give the metal more of a "break in" capability than the alloys of copper without lead, Going with that, tired of waiting on Lionel to come up with an answer nearly two decades after the release of their problem child.
Ifyou are going to the expense of having gears cut, go the additional expense of finding out what material is best.
New format won't let me edit or paste from an outside source. Just google "gear bronze" and you will have answers.
bob2 posted:New format won't let me edit or paste from an outside source. Just google "gear bronze" and you will have answers.
Of course you can. Let Me Google That For You.
Update: just opened an envelope from NWSL. Thought they were just returning the Lionel gears I sent them, since Dave stated that he couldnt make them. Much to my surprise, he did make a new set out of delrin. These were cut, and not formed like the Lionel gears. Going to install them and see how they hold up. This could be the solution I've been looking for.
| ||||||||||||||
Duke, keep us posted. Maybe you could do a similar stress test like Alex did with the North Lima gears. Life time warranty is pretty impressive.
I plan to give Mike a few more weeks. If no solution I have 6 pairs of delrin gears to get me by.
Good luck with yours.
Pete
I'm going to pull the eight vanderbilt heavy weight cars that broke the gears in the first place. This was done on 072 curve. I now have three sets of the North Lima replacements for spares. I'm thinking that the NWSL gears are the answer, time will tell. I will keep everyone posted on the results.
Also the NWSL part numbers are: 2937-6 13T WG, and 2936-6 19T RWG. And thank you very much Dave at NWSL for making this happen.
Thanks for huge effort folks as I would like to get my two back on the rails.
Update: Sending out the Niagara for gear replacement and u joint replacement next weekend. Have all the parts, but sending out the engine because these old hands dont work like they used to. Dont want to cross thread any of those small screws. I will do and post a video of the Niagara pulling all eight of the Lionel Vanderbilt cars that broke the drivetrain when I get it back.
Sending the Niagara out to Royz Trains in Michigan to have the gears and u joints replaced. He does great work and is reasonably priced. It's sad that I had to jump through all of these hoops to get what I originally paid Lionel for in the first place. On other hand, now I will have a reliable Niagara engine that will pull a string of cars like it should have done in the first place. Problem solved.
Duke,
Any chance you can provide contact information and potential costs? What is being done in terms of the gears and gear box?
My email is in my profile.
Kevin
Dave at NWSL in Montana made the gears. The 4mm u joints l purchased online from a common auction site. Probably have about $130.00 invested, not counting research time.
Duke, Just curious if you have any news for us?
Thanks,Doug
I am curious if Mike R ever came up with an alternate solution. Any feedback Kevin?
Pete
Pete and Team,
I have been keeping in touch with Mike since this began. We are making excellent progress. Let me quickly recap, I sent Mike one of the two engines I have. That one was on the track for a test run, no cars behind it. Alex M has the other one that spun the plastic gear as well as another NJ HiRailers member unit - the one with the pictures.
Fast forward January 2016 - Per Mike's request I sent the "new" one I had, mentioned above. Mike mentioned he would look at Lionel's spare part inventory to see if he could rebuild the one I sent as he did it to one this summer with success. Unfortunately, that did not go well because the parts needed where not available.
About a week ago I spoke with Mike. They are "working towards a solution" but he is swamped with getting new products in the USA and into dealer hands - not an issue from that perspective.
Mike assured me that as they get closer to a solution he will let me / us know. What ever the Lionel team is doing it will require design, development and testing, not an easy task given all the other activities going on - you saw the 2016 catalog.
I did not ask a for a time line but suggested we dialog once a month or when he feels appropriate / has something to report. I do feel confident a solution is pending.
On a personal note, I have to give the Mike, his engineering team and all of the folks at Lionel team kudos for hearing us.
I would ask that folk's don't drive him crazy asking for a solution and when. We have an advocate.
Hope this helps.
Kevin
All, this has been a great thread to follow as I have a CCII Niagara, of which I have changed out the u-joints with 4mm, already. I just checked out the NWSL site and they are listing, "for the Lionel CCII Niagara" 36dpx13TWGx10.45 mm x 3.3 mm face x 3.0mm bore, delrin gears. They list for $12.95 and I found them in the stores category. I would like to say it is due to, most likely, IMHO, to Duke and his efforts. A giant step in the right direction........ ? As I stated, a great thread to assist us all with rectifying problems with a pretty darn good engine... when the bugs are exterminated.
Jesse TCA
Thanks for the update Kevin and Jesse. This is good news for other owners. 26 bucks for a pair of gears with a lifetime guarantee or hang tight for maybe a better fix from Lionel. Things are looking up for this engine.
Pete
I would also like to thank everyone for keeping us updated on the Niagara gear issue. I will certainly be sending my Niagara to someone up north to repair for me. I really like this engine and have invested in upgrades in the sound, smoke, and puffs per revolution - by Alex of course!
Since the Lionel and MTH versions of the Niagara hit the market a few years apart, has this gear problem occurred in the MTH version of the Niagara?
Keep the updates coming!
Richard
Team,
Here is my plan based on my previous post. I am not going to do anything until I get a formal response from Mike. At that point I will make my decision. What I can say is if Mike and the Lionel come up with a solution then that's what will go into my CC II Niagara.
I suggested you all sit tight and give it more time.
Kevin
Kevin,thanks for your update. I was curious if Duke had his engine back and tested the NWSL gears to see if they hold up to long trains.
I'm all for Mike's fix when he has one! My engine has no problems at this time with the gears. If Mike has a fix and adding gunrunners chug-n-puff and sensor tach that he's working on and Fatboy speakers will make this a great engine for sure!!
Thanks,Doug
Doug,
Totally agree - I had Alex upgrade the smoke unit and 4 chuff on both prior to putting them on the track. Did not update the speakers yet. They are great looking engines so I cant wait to get them back on the rails. Plastic gears - not a fan but that's what they put in it. It is my hope they can re - engineer the gears and drive train. If that's the case then this will be great engine.
Kevin
OK...... placed order this morning with NWSL for the 13T WG and 19T RWG delrin gears they have for the Niagara. When they arrive I will open the Niagara back up and change out the drive gears, to help with the stainless steel 4mm u joints I have installed. Hope this will be all necessary. Did have problem with the cherry switch when I first started running and the chuff rate in forward direction, only. That nuance has straightened out, now to perform a "final" fix and keep it on the right-of-way pulling the 18 scale milk cars, or the NYC hvywt 12 car consist. Both look great behind this fine example of motive power.
Jesse
TCA
Jesse,
Post some pictures as you do the change out - Thanks,
Kevin
Yes, I will be taking pics of the change-out, and will post as well for all to reference. That is really one factor about this forum, the input and information we all have access to for furthering our hobby.
Jesse
Jesse, you might want to consider one more mod while you have your engine apart. Do a search on the forum for "torque brace" and "torque arm". The Lionel Niagara does not have this and the result is excess thrust force on the motor bearings and worm bearings. You will find pics in the threads and reasons for using them.
Pete
I haven't posted here for a while, here's an update on one of the Niagara's I was repairing. This is the same Niagara that i installed new gear's from Lima, that failed after pulling 10 cars. I installed another set of Lima gears and now the entire gear box locks up. So I'm going to wait and see what Mike R comes up with, in my opinion it will be the best solution. I've put tons of labor hours only to go back to square one.
Alex
Alex, have you tried the new NWSL gears?
gunrunnerjohn posted:Alex, have you tried the new NWSL gears?
There are couple of reasons to be circumspect about the NWSL gears. First off the new (and maybe original) Lionel gears are delrin not nylon like a lot of us assumed. Second is they are the wrong type of gear. The idler that contacts the worm is a spur gear and not a proper worm gear. That means pressure is applied to only part of the gear tooth instead of whole tooth. Lastly they appear to be very thin for the amount of torque they are expected to transmit.
NWSL gears are supposed to better because they are made of a delrin variant called Celcon. This plastic comes in different formulations with some preferred for gears. Second they are cut versus cast. This should make them better but they are still spur gears and the are still thin.
I have a few sets of delrin gears from SDP and could swap them out at any time but have chosen to wait and see what Mike R comes up with. The best scenerio in my mind is a completely redesigned gearbox that will just drop in.
Pete
I would suspect that Lionel coming up with a completely redesigned drop-in gearbox is pretty small!
Before I would waste my time replacing individual gears, I would replace the whole gearbox with something like NWSL 652-6 (or whichever is appropriate one for the driving axle diameter.) Yes you should fabricate and use a torque brace for best results. You should also replace the U-joints if you haven't already.
This is a difficult repair, but no more difficult than replacing the worm wheel or wheel bearings on a 736 Berkshire or 773 Hudson. I'm willing to bet that if you do what I'm saying here, the loco will run well and your problems will be over.
Access to this requires an OGR Forum Supporting Membership
