Pricing of New Old Stock

We should never insult a fellow hobbiest purchase choice,  by referring to anyone as a "sucker".  Some folks are just starting out, uninformed.

That's why this forum exists, to share our knowledge and joy in this hobby.

If someone wants an item NIB, because that is how they want it (new in the box), then what they are willing to pay usually ends up being MSRP and sometimes more if the item was limited or very desirable...their choice.

Consider what prices an original 700E or an original 773 hudson in good condition bring.

Some stuff IS out dated, not popular and produced in volume, ("another one of those").

Some people want the simpler electronics with already encountered problems and fixes.

Newer bells and whistles will eventually have their own issues.

It all boils down to personal preferences: pre war. Post war, modern era. Types of control systems (TMCC, LEGACY, PS1,PS2,PS3).

I personally have a TMCC  4-4-2 E6 Pennsylvania Atlantic...really happy with it...no desire to own a Legacy version.

If or when it dies I'll probably look for a "used" replacement or an NIB (at a "reasonable" price). Someone else with similar sentiments might just prefer an NIB at full original MSRP.

In this hobby all that matters is that it's your railroad, and your choices.

Buy what you can afford, buy what YOU like.

If the prices are unreasonable walk away. 

Dont be bullied into "must have" , ........newest is not necessarily best.

Eventually the market place establishes value and price.   

( remember beanie babys?)

It's your railroad.

How does all of these stores have walls of NOS? They would have to eat the cost of all this stuff wouldn't they?

I agree ...i see stuff not selling on ebite.  You make an offer..Rejected.. Used is used.. NOS. things give up. After time.. Rust. Etc.  Then you need to take it apart and repair it. So it's not new.. Never run.. But not new.  New would be when the product was made and sold . bought at  that release.. First owner. After first owner.. It's used. My view..

maybe the price is why it still new old stock 15 years later

I won't buy NOS unless the price is really good. It may be new, but unless you are buying from an authorized dealer, chances are very good there won't be any warranty. I see transformers for sale on Ebay listed by individuals (not authorized dealers) as brand new at the same prices as or even higher prices than dealers charge. They may be "new" in the sense that they have never been used, but the warranty clock started ticking the moment the authorized dealer sold them, and the price should reflect that. 

John

raising4daughters posted:

My personal feeling is that the new old stock is worth about half.

It's pointless to try to quantify any specific valuation of what a certain thing is "worth" compared to something newer. There are way too many variables that go into the equation. A person can't specify a fixed comparative value for this any more than with cars or antiques or most other things. Trying to set a fixed benchmark comparison value is useless.

NOS rolling stock is worth a look - especially Lionel since it has the awesome no-thumbtack truck design.  Steam or diesel stuff is only (if at all) worth more than you would pay at a show used.  YMMV. 

justakid posted:

We should never insult a fellow hobbiest purchase choice,  by referring to anyone as a "sucker".  Some folks are just starting out, uninformed.

That's why this forum exists, to share our knowledge and joy in this hobby.

 

 

You are absolutely correct, we're suppose to encourage new comers in the hobby.

On the other side.....

Yesterday while at an established train shop I spied a very attractive Lionel box car high up on a shelf that I had never recalled seeing advertised before (why do trains always look better on display at the hobby shop then they do in my basement - that'll have to be saved for another discussion). I asked to buy it and they searched high and low and couldn't find one in the box, so they took down the shelf piece and dusted it off with what looked like a decade of dust on it. They found the box - no paperwork but no big deal as its only a boxcar. I kind of jokingly but I guess it came off as serious if there was any discount applied for the dust and received a lecture from the owner about how items are already discounted and the narrow margin he works with. I thought about it and assuming the narrow margin he quoted was correct I can sympathize - mostly from having worked in a small business myself and knowing how challenging it can be is just to meet payroll some weeks. When I got home I figured it out - his regular discount was 25% of MSRP, which is very good IMO - and I will be using the car on my layout, so a little vacuuming and its good to go. I believe it must take very deep pockets to have a brick and mortar hobby shop with extensive inventory.

Question for those scoffing at new old stock priced at MSRP:  Is the store owner waiting for you to make an offer and sees no point in replacing the price tags?  Did you make an offer?

What, me worry?

Paul Kallus posted:

Yesterday while at an established train shop I spied a very attractive Lionel box car high up on a shelf that I had never recalled seeing advertised before (why do trains always look better on display at the hobby shop then they do in my basement - that'll have to be saved for another discussion). I asked to buy it and they searched high and low and couldn't find one in the box, so they took down the shelf piece and dusted it off with what looked like a decade of dust on it. They found the box - no paperwork but no big deal as its only a boxcar. I kind of jokingly but I guess it came off as serious if there was any discount applied for the dust and received a lecture from the owner about how items are already discounted and the narrow margin he works with. I thought about it and assuming the narrow margin he quoted was correct I can sympathize - mostly from having worked in a small business myself and knowing how challenging it can be is just to meet payroll some weeks. When I got home I figured it out - his regular discount was 25% of MSRP, which is very good IMO - and I will be using the car on my layout, so a little vacuuming and its good to go. I believe it must take very deep pockets to have a brick and mortar hobby shop with extensive inventory.

Great reply.

breezinup posted:

raising4daughters posted:

My personal feeling is that the new old stock is worth about half.

It's pointless to try to quantify any specific valuation of what a certain thing is "worth" compared to something newer. There are way too many variables that go into the equation. A person can't specify a fixed comparative value for this any more than with cars or antiques or most other things. Trying to set a fixed benchmark comparison value is useless.

The thing you have to look at is why is the person buying it? Some people are collectors and never take stuff out and run it. To a collector something NOS in new condition (and there is a lot of mpc that was properly stored and looks like it rolled off the line yesterday) may have considerable value. 

That said, the stores that have price stuff to keep must have another income source. The internet and ebay have become the equalizer. People shop around, compare prices, and buy from lower priced sources if possible. We are still in the middle of the retail revolution, who knows how it will ultimately end up. 

Alfred E Neuman posted:

Question for those scoffing at new old stock priced at MSRP:  Is the store owner waiting for you to make an offer and sees no point in replacing the price tags?  Did you make an offer?

While I agree that there is no rhyme or reason with regard to price on NOS, in my experience there is a 100% ironclad guarantee that a lower offer will be scoffed at.  I still offer anyway but that's my experience.  Oh well.  There's too much of this stuff out there to give it much consideration.  Moving on. 

--- Amended to say, I'm talking about MSRP+ NOS stuff.  Obviously, I've haggled and achieved a lower price on some stuff.

breezinup posted:

raising4daughters posted:

My personal feeling is that the new old stock is worth about half.

It's pointless to try to quantify any specific valuation of what a certain thing is "worth" compared to something newer. There are way too many variables that go into the equation. A person can't specify a fixed comparative value for this any more than with cars or antiques or most other things. Trying to set a fixed benchmark comparison value is useless.

I said "about" half. "About" implies a range, doesn't it? 

I never suggested there's a "specific valuation" or formula nor did I ask for a "fixed comparative value" nor did I suggest setting a "fixed benchmark." 

Not quite sure how you got "specific valuation", "fixed comparative value", and "fixed benchmark" out of "about half."  

Good thoughts, interesting perspectives.

Overall, I agree with raising 4, we are talking about general rules that apply to most items and purchasers.  There are outlier items and outlier purchasers. These situations will be at the tail of the bell curve. 

I am probably typical of many on the forum, we like nice items and we like to run them, at least some of the time. In my purchases, I often think an item is worth X% and a frequent benchmark for me is 50%. Then other considerations kick in.

I'll give an example that just happened. I found a MTH Premier Santa Fe 2-10-4 on "the auction site" with a Buy it Now or Best Offer listing. This particular PS2 3V model: https://mthtrains.com/20-3161-1

It was MIB and never run. It listed at $1100 brand new in 2005. I made the seller a offer at less than 50% msrp. He accepted it. I still have yet to pay more than 50% of msrp for MIB locomotives with older (TMCC/PS2) control systems, especially if a Legacy/PS3 version has come out.

Yeah it doesn't have PS3 and the latest "bells and whistles" but that doesn't bother me at all.

For whatever it's worth I always think 50% off or more moves items here.  But a lot of variables so any particular item may break the rule.

Most items of NOS rolling stock have a fairly well-established market value, and defects are easy to spot.  Engines are trickier - made in lesser volume, more things to go wrong, harder to tell exactly what you're getting.  

Until relatively recently, I was unaware of the extent to which electronic components will deteriorate over time, even if they aren't used or abused.  With that in mind, my thought process when buying NOS non-conventional engines is "if I have to put $200+ of repairs into it, will I still be happy with the deal?".

I think there is a big difference between cars and engines.  If I look at some of my Southern steam TMCC engines, I have two, when the Legacy versions came out, I know the "value" plummeted.  

If I were a dealer with new stock, I would realize that when a new catalog comes out that if a older version doesn't move before the new engine shows up, it's likely going sit if I don't discount it heavily.

Regarding cars, I think it's a similar discussion.  I see dealers discounting more as they age.  If you are looking for a specific older car, you can likely find a bargain.  Going to a shop that is selling old items at MSRP doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, but it's their business.  

For me if i I like it I buy it, age is not the big driver.  Perceived value is what is important to me. 

John

Mallard4468 posted:

Until relatively recently, I was unaware of the extent to which electronic components will deteriorate over time, even if they aren't used or abused.  With that in mind, my thought process when buying NOS non-conventional engines is "if I have to put $200+ of repairs into it, will I still be happy with the deal?".

Really good perspective. Thanks!