PS3 problems

My first guess would be that the cars have constant voltage regulators that kill DCS signal.  What is the make and vintage of the cars?   The cure would be to add a small choke in the power feed from the rollers to the constant voltage unit.

Interesting.   There was a similar problems with PS 3.0 F3 units (railking) where the internal wiring was compacted and wound in such a way that signal quality/reception was impacted significantly.  I had the problem, and it sounds an awful lot like what you are describing.   It was worse with passenger cars, but I could reproduce it with freight cars as well.   There was a relationship between the number of cars and engines on the track and signal quality, but even when the engine ran alone, it was wonkey.   I took mine to my LHS and he found an MTH service bulletin that detailed re-routing the wiring under the shell.   Since this simple modification, I have had zero issues.   I'd suggest a quick chat with MTH to see if they are already aware of the issue.   

My first PS3 engine was a complete dud (DOA).   My second was the F3 set above, and since the mod it has been 100% reliable.  My last two PS3 engines have been rock solid, and I would say they are better all around than my PS2 engines.   

I would try 15 foot 18 gauge speaker wire see if that helps with signal. I have B&O GP35 PS3. I sent in to mth for repair and got it back but still was having signal issues so mth told me to use 15 foot wire helps smooth signal out.    

If you are referring to wire betwen tiu and track, 18-gauge is woefully inadequate for O gauge.

Well it works just fine RJR. I have added 15 foot wire to mine i sure does work. 

Steve,

He would like to know if there is anything that he can do so he can operate his long, lighted UP passenger train without the signal degrading.

Since the only time the problem occurs the engine is pulling passenger cars and the more cars, the worse the problem, then the problem is almost certainly due to one of two things:

• Less likely is the power draw of the cars themselves, although it's still a possibility
• More likely is interference from CV (constant voltage) lighting boards in the passenger cars. If these cars are from Golden Gate Depot and were manufactured more than a year or so ago, then it's almost a certainty that they are the problem.

If the CV boards in the cars are the problem, inserting a 22uh RF choke inline with the car's pickup rollers should resolve the issue. This is discussed in detail on page 52 of The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition, included below:

Some, but not all, TMCC engines will degrade the DCS signal of any PS2 engine with which they are in close proximity. This effect varies both by individual TMCC engine and by the distance between the TMCC and PS2 engines. In many cases, an RF choke inserted in the Hot wire between the pickup rollers and the TMCC engine's circuit board will correct this problem.

Some lighted cabooses, most notably those manufactured by Atlas O, may degrade the DCS signal, as may some engines or passenger cars with constant voltage (CV) lighting boards. Again, an RF choke inserted in the Hot wire between the pickup rollers and the circuit board in these cars will generally correct this problem. Although a number of different RF chokes may be effective in reducing interference from CV boards, one that has an electrical value of 22uh (micro henries) is known to work well.

This and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

What brand UP cars does he have?  I have that same engine and pull 12 MTH UP cars with no loss.  If he is running early GGD, Lionel or Weaver that is the reason.  He needs RF chokes on the cars like Barry stated.  What you stated would not be an issue if running MTH or K Line cars.  What TIU is he using?  A Rev L will not have that issue.

Recent GGD cars will not give you any problems.  When this signal degrading was first an issue, Scott Mann was the first to make it a non issue by changing his boards to LED lighting.

Thanks to all for responding.

I will try and contact him today and forward this information to him.  And ask him for answers to your questions.  All I know at this time is the following:

He is very knowledgeable regarding MTH DCS control system.

He has had no problems with signal loss when using other PS2 engines pulling the lighted passenger cars.

The passenger cars are MTH's.

Steve

Steve, if he is running MTH cars, ask him if anything else is sharing the tracks.

I put the chokes into all my passenger car lighting conversions.  Might as well make sure that I'm not stepping on the DCS signal.   It's a cheap investment if you're already in there.

I just got off the phone with him.

All 5 units (2 A powered and 3 B unpowered units) have been back to MTH several times to be fixed to no avail.  

That includes the TUI.

He has tried all combinations of the 5 units with similar results.

The last time he received them back from MTH, he called them to tell them that they still did not operate properly, he asked what train set were they using to test it.  They responded "a freight train!"  He asked them why they didn't use a train set of lighted passenger cars to test it.  Their response was just a "DUH!"

He has no problems whatsoever when using PS2 motive power pulling the train of lighted cars.

He has no problems whatsoever using any of his PS2 engines pulling any train.  And he has many!

Marty;  He just has a loop of track that has no switches.  No other items are on the track.

Oh, MTH said for him to run a feed of 12' of wire.  He did that. So on one side of his loop is the TUI and the other side has the end of the 12' power feed.

Steve

Did he do a track signal test?  Assuming he has a perfect track signal(10) I would add a second feeder wire  to the other  outside rail .Why?.. I don't think the outside rail picks are that great on 2/3 rail engines.

  Maybe even divide the loop into blocks depending on how big the loop is...  however it sounds like it not that big if the engine is almost running into the tail end of the train.....

. if you have a spare tiu channel you could divide the loop in half   doubling the dcs track signal strength.....use the same power supply.

good luck

Could be power loss due to high amperage.

Gregg, I am with you on that.

As I posted yesterday...

• Less likely is the power draw of the cars themselves, although it's still a possibility

Hi Guys,

I talked to my friend today.  He really appreciated all the feedback.  And so do I.

Ok, that 12' power feed; when he tried that and it did not solve the problem he called MTH back.  They said to add another 12' feed to the track to another area of the loop.  When he did that the signal was less than with just the 1 feed.  His total loop of track is approximately 30'.

He is using Lionel's tubular track 072 diameter.

I will tell him to use a spare TIU channel.  

He is truly baffled.  These new PS3 engines are the ONLY MTH engines that have ever given him any problems.  He personally attributes the problem to the fact that PS3 also supports DCC.  In his mind that adds another factor that might contribute to this type of problem.

He will be going the the upcoming Amherst, Mass show and talking to the MTH people in person.  He really wants to clear this matter up. He absolutely loves MTH motive power.  He DOES NOT purchase any of the other manufacturers engines.

But until then he will not be purchasing any PS3 motive power.

Steve

What TIU Rev is he using?  When he runs the  PS-3 engines with out cars what is his DCS signal strength?  Can he add one car at a time and run it measuring signal strength?  Keep adding a car until he looses control?  If each car added results in a degradation of the signal I would see if I could borrow some other MTH passenger cars to see how the engine responds. Maybe a bad passenger lighting set up, dirty wheels or track causing issues.

Some PS-3 have had internal wire routing interfere with the DCS Signal inside the engine.  Maybe it is marginal and the extra light cars is causing it to cross a threshold and not perform.

I would test and collect some data based on the above.  It has to be something causing this.   G

Something crazy is going on.  Those cars are never a problem.  I have a few of them.

OK, just got off the phone with my friend.  He talked to MTH again and received the following info from them:

It is best to operate these new PS3 engines using the latest TUI.  My friend has an older one, however, it was upgraded to the latest version by MTH recently.  I myself am not familiar with the different versions of TUI's; could someone please let me know how to tell them apart and what is the most current one and which ones can be upgraded and such.  Are the brand new TUI's different internally from the older ones? 

He has run other lighted MTH passenger cars (the new New Haven green striped ones that are listed in the latest catalog) behind the UP E-8's with the same result.

He was told that inside of the engine there is a doughnut coil of copper wire and that there should be no other wires near that coil.  If other wires are near that coil they could interfere with the signal strength.

Oh, and he was told that a PS2 engine on the same track will interfere with a PS3 engine with regard to signal strength and all.

I have not heard anything of that nature with regard to this last topic.  Perhaps others who run both PS2 and PS3 engines would care to inform us of their experiences running those 2 versions of DCS together.

Steve

OUCH!!!

If the story Steam Guy relates hasn't changed from what MTH said, this is a critical indictment of PS3.  We'll see how this plays out.

Personally I'm hoping that someone from MTH has been following this topic thread and will please respond with some facts.  I, for one, would hate to know that there is some misinformation in these discussions so as to give some people the wrong impression of MTH's products.

Steve 

Steam Guy,

The following reflects my current understanding of the accuracy of your information.

It is best to operate these new PS3 engines using the latest TUI. 

The facts are that this should be expressed a bit differently.

The latest Rev. L TIUs provide improved signal strength for all DCS engines, both PS2 and PS3. However, they provide more benefit for PS3 engines simply because PS3 engines are better equipped to take advantage of the Rev. L TIU's improvements.

could someone please let me know how to tell them apart and what is the most current one and which ones can be upgraded and such.  Are the brand new TUI's different internally from the older ones?

The TIUs may be distinguished by a label or heat stamp on the bottom of the TIU. The original version, Rev. G, may be recognized because it has no such designation. Later TIUs, in historical sequence, have the following Rev. numbers: H, H1, H2, I, I3, I3a, I3b.

The Rev. G and all the Rev. H's use a 5 volt processor, and the Rev. I's and Rev. L use a 3 volt processor. All model TIUs have internal fuses except for the original Rev. G.

Only the Rev. L has an FPGA instead of an ASIC chip as its DSP (Digital Signal Processor). This is from where the Rev. L's improved signal strength comes.

Typically, the later the model, the better the TIU. Regardless, all TIUs can be loaded with the latest DCS software, DCS 4.20.

He has run other lighted MTH passenger cars (the new New Haven green He was told that inside of the engine there is a doughnut coil of copper wire and that there should be no other wires near that coil.  If other wires are near that coil they could interfere with the signal strength.

This is absolutely true.

Also, some early PS3 diesels and/or electrics were manufactured using a black screw that caused the DCS signal to degrades. Removing the blackening from the screw restores the full DCS signal strength.

Oh, and he was told that a PS2 engine on the same track will interfere with a PS3 engine with regard to signal strength and all.

This is complete nonsense. Your friend must have misunderstood what he was told.

A TMCC or Legacy engine can seriously interfere with both PS2 and PS3 engines, however, PS2 and PS3 engines interact with each other, even in lashups, with no ill effects whatsoever.

This and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

Did you read my post 4 up.  I talked about the interference from the wiring.  He needs to do some testing, or else call Service and talk to VP of service explain the issue and that this engine needs to be tested with lighted passenger cars.   Or take it to a local tech that is familiar with PS-3 and some of the issues seen.  G

"He was told that inside of the engine there is a doughnut coil of copper wire and that there should be no other wires near that coil.  If other wires are near that coil they could interfere with the signal strength."

This was this was the problem with the early PS3 F-3's.   There was a service bulletin once they figured it out.  I was ready to toss my F-3's out the window until they spent a day at the LHS - he did the fix and it's been perfect ever since.    

Stumper:  noting the last line of your post, are you really using a Commodore 64?

Marty, this coil is only on PS3????

It's apparently only been an issue on the PS/3 boards at times.  There are similar torrid coils on the PS/2 boards.

John

There are similar torrid coils on the PS/2 boards.

Really? How about toroid?

They have some of those on the boards as well Barry.