Remote Control Audio for Rolling Stock

I guess price point matters.  These cars have been available.  RS and Crew Talk Cabooses and stock cars, Diners.  It was just a matter of how far and what types of sounds to install.

I really wonder how big the market is though.  You have  a whole group that don't want sounds and talk on engines.  So I doubt they would buy these items.

Seems like this would be easy peeze for the manufactures to do, with remote control via their systems.  Yet they chose not to.

I still go back to the MTH Coors train.  Remote control sounds, animated features and smoke, all controlled via the DCS system and the PS-2 board talking to the auxiliary cars.   Why no follow up with working railroad cars is beyond me.   G

GGG,

   Good point.

PCRR/Dave

George, I'm not really worried about the market, I started this project, as with others, for my use.  I'm not a major manufacturer, and I don't think like one. 

I would point out that the VL tank cars are scarce and expensive.  Also, the VL PFE Reefer sets are all sold out in advance, and now you pay a big premium over MSRP to buy the VL tank car sets, and I suspect after a spell, the VL PFE Reefers.  Obviously, someone must like the sounds.   Lionel is also bringing back the Station Sounds Diners as well.

I don't have any sound cars, but I really like the idea of having additional sounds. I also like the crew talk, and other sounds we have available now, but they are somewhat limited. Even with the current sound cars offered, you are still stuck with whatever they want to put in them and also how much they want to have in them. Having your own, whatever you want and as many as you want would really be a great addition.

As far as the folks posting here to estimate demand for sound, I wonder if we don't just hear from the ones that don't like the sounds a lot more than we hear from the ones that do? I would bet there are many more sound users than folks turning it off, especially if kids are involved or promotion of the hobby is the goal.

I'm not really worried about the naysayers, I know some folks don't like the sounds, and others do.  I don't routinely use the crewtalk on most locomotives because it's usually kinda' lame.  OTOH, more "natural" or entertaining sounds coming from a number of cars in the consist is pretty cool, so I'm all for that.

Clearly, as I stated before, the fact that most of the sound equipped rolling stock sells quickly and many times at a premium speaks for itself.

This feature is the key in my opinion.  Yes, there's at least one supplier that you can send in your sound and they will program it onto a sound module.  But now you just program whatever you want using your PC/laptop/tablet and your rolling-stock or accessory is playing that sound right now!

Plus, the major manufacturers will never be able to provide real music because they can't afford the licensing fees.  But for your personal use, the sky's the limits.  Let's see.  The train stops, the boxcar door slides open, there's a band, hey it's the Rolling Stones!, music starts playing Can't get no Satisfaction in MP3 quality sound, song finishes, door slides closed, train pulls away.  You're limited only by your imagination.

The length (hours not seconds) of sound with these MP3 players opens new opportunities.  So for station sounds you can literally go to Grand Central Station or wherever and record hours of actual station sounds and play them back on your layout.  Imagination becomes the limiting factor...

I'm going to take a train ride on a local RR company's freights and I have a couple of USB stick audio recorders.  I'll Velcro them to locations on a couple of cars for each direction of the run, then I'll edit the mess and see what I get.  Real freight car sounds!

Stan, I did see that I forgot one detail in my design.  The BY8001-16P only accepts a 3.3V input, for 5V inputs you need a 1K resistor in series with the outputs of the uP.  I don't know if I'll change the processor for 3.3 or insert the resistors.  Either way, it's a little 'OOPS".  The MiniCommander one has the same issue, but there's only one location where 5V logic goes to the MP3 player, easier to fix.

I think this whole project is a great idea myself. I really like your (stan2004) idea about the bands playing when the boxcar opens up, very good idea and would be pretty neat to have on one's layout. People that don't currently like the crew talk and announcements will probably also be interested, once they see this in action.

Along with GRJ's sound website he was talking about earlier for gathering sounds to play, an idea section for how to use the sound modules on that site would be great to have as well. I bet the grand kids will be able to come up with some interesting ideas too (probably a lot better than any of mine will be).

This is a very exciting project and I am also very glad it is being shared with all here on the forum. Although once GRJ gets things perfected, I will probably just try to get one (or more) of his. That is if he decides to offer them to others.

Once the dust settles, I'll produce some sort of kit.  Until it get it all working smoothly, it's hard to know what it will look like.  The kit may wait until I can build a general purpose one with TMCC & RF capability as well as a few optional outputs.  Lots of ground to cover yet, but it's a fun ride.

Now that's what I'm talking about!  What strikes me is how with "hardware" it can be difficult to explain how to change a 5 cent resistor or capacitor to change the behavior of some widgit.  Soldering can be a royal pain. And of course that 5 cent part requires a $5 shipping charge or waiting a month from China.  If you make something like this available, we can share/email MP3 files to completely change the behavior.  IMO this is a game-changer.

Below the radar!

BTW, I have one of these ~$6 DTMF (touchtone) decoder modules on order 251600411636

This is to decode the spare MP3 stereo channel to embed up to 4 channels of animation motor/lighting control.  I'm going to use the $1 MP3 player to test this but I'm thinking if you make your module available I'd want to let the DIY ambitious join the party. To that end, on your next revision how about bringing the unused audio channel, +5V, and GND to a 3-pin header on a board edge to make it easier to connect? 

I wasn't being a naysayer, just pointing out observations when others said how much of a market there is for this.

I realize John and Stan are doing this as a hobby and much of it for themselves.

But I don't think Lionel and MTH would leave money on the table if there was a high demand, and both companies have the tech to do this.

No need to shoot me for a simple comment.

Sure odd off passenger cars are always in high demand, same with the Vision Line set.  but crewtalk cabooses and stock cars DID NOT sell well.  Folks complain about $70 stock cars, $120 just don't sell.  Which is why I mentioned price point.

A hobbyist can do this for less then what a manufacture can with direct access to these components.   G

Exactly.  It's about having fun!

I only speak for myself but, for example, we both have built a DIY O-gauge motorized Oscar Mayer Wienermobile car.  I for one am imagining mine rolling down the track playing "Oh I wish I were an Oscar Mayer wiener..." and "My best friend has a first name, it's O-S-C-A-R..."

I haven't seen one of their TV commercials in a long time, but I believe they still drive those things across the country and it's said to be a great summer job for a college kid!

I think we just slapped you around a bit George, we didn't shoot you.   I agree there's a big difference between doing this on a shoestring and doing it in a corporate environment. 

Stan, I need to save up all these ideas and see about adding stuff.  I think when I do the microprocessor version with serial data for TMCC and serial out for the MP3 control, that would be a good time to add some digital controls and bring out both of the analog stereo channels.  I'll want to use some smaller connectors so they don't take up a ton of space, I have a few of the 1.25mm ones that Lionel uses in a few places.

FWIW, I have what might represent sort of a document on the BY8001-16P command set.  I've pieced together a bunch of documents, did a few Google translations of Chinese stuff, and then cut-n-pasted together a composite that may be enough to use the serial protocol.  The translation wasn't perfect, and a few places got weird overlayed text, but pretty close.  I'm going to dust off my old serial protocol analyzer and see if any of these command sequences work.

Document attached.

Stan, mine does sing the theme song.

I just saw one the other day, they're still driving them around.  I believe it was last winter when this one crashed.

Then there's this one, but not much damage.

The first prototype is in the can.

Here's the ERR MiniCommander ACC first prototype.  Other than a missing resistor that I had to cobble in, and making a mistake on the size of the two IC chips, all is well.  I violated my self-imposed limit on chip size, and they were a giant PITA to solder on.  Before I build any more of these, I'll be changing those to the slightly larger packages.

That's all behind me, and I'm happy to report that it works as intended!  I'm going to install it into a boxcar for it's first road test.

Looking really good! Hope the boxcar try outs go well.

Well, it works on the bench, but the real test is how it deals with the power from the track, hopefully that won't be a major issue.

Hi John

Very nice, neat and tight design. Let us know how your track test in a box car worked out.

nice small package congratulations on your design, hope it works as planned and functionality satisfactiry!

alan Mancus

I'm always amazed at what you electronics capable guys can do!!!   Joe

Thanks guys.  I'm looking around for a suitable boxcar that I can get pickups on to do it's track test.

John,

Check this out:

http://www.digitrains.co.uk/ec...m-sound-capsule.aspx

The module is an all-in-one unit, circuit, battery, speaker, and motion sensor.  I just emailed them to see if they have one for O scale.

No wiring, cams, or contacts required!

This is for steam chuff but I imagine any sound could be done.

Judging from the size, it appears to be targeted at HO, they'll need a lot more power and speaker size for O-gauge.

Wouldn't an MTH boxcar be the easiest? Screw attachment. The E O T truck would work as a swap out for a power lead.

That's why I emailed them, I think the noise generated from an O scale engine by itself would require a more robust sound coming from the speaker.  The motion sensor looked like a good idea, no cams or reflective tape from what I saw and no track pickups.

I've thought about a motion detector, there are a number of options for those.  However, in a steady-state speed on a straight track, you won't have a sense of motion.  I'll believe it when I see it.  Here's the Train Tech Sound Page, it apparently uses a small coin battery.  The user's manual has more details, and I'm not overwhelmed with what they have so far.  I think you'll see the difference between that power source and several watts of power from track voltage.

Carl, I want a car with two pickups, as track power interruptions will be an issue.  I'll figure something out.

Hi Bob and John

I am not knocking the Train Tech design but the price is 40 Pound Sterling plus shipping and custom. Current exchange rate is 1 Pound Sterling equals US$1.56 or plain American Standard which is US$62.40 plus shipping and custom. Ouch!

Kris, the real problem is this particular product isn't really suitable for O-gauge, so it's unknown how much an O-gauge product might cost.

I also note that when you read the description, they don't know how fast the train is running, so synchronized chuffs or prime mover sounds are not possible.  In addition, the fact that they use a simple metal ball in a contact sphere leads me to believe that in steady-state running it would think you were stopped as I mentioned previously.

This may be good enough for the HO guys, but I want better sound in my trains.

Trains are incredibly loud and noisy contraptions.  I'm imagining a scenario where sound modules can be put in EVERY car - not just in the expensive engine.  This only can happen if cost gets low enough...but that's exactly what has happened in the last couple years with these insanely-priced, miniature-sized Asia electronic modules.  MP3 players, RF remote modules, etc.

A byproduct of the Fitbit and smartphone activity trackers and navigation systems are these motion detection modules for less than $2 shipped (121658851348).  3-axis accelerometer and 3-axis gyroscope on a single IC chip.  It's absolutely incredible considering just a few years ago you'd pay a fortune to just get a single-axis solid-state accelerometer chip. 

Yes, it requires a microcontroller or processor and lots of software to take advantage, but there are countless O gauge applications if someone puts their mind to it.  Let's see.  Detecting going around a curve to trigger wheel squealing, detecting initial motion or stopping to trigger coupler slacking or compression, detecting rail joints to generate truly synchronized clickety-clacking, well you get the idea!

To date it's been impractically expensive to put sound in EVERY car (plus the engine) and maybe it's a fool's errand to do so.  But imagine the effect of a consist rolling by that actually sounds like the prototype...rather than sound coming only from the engine and 50 trailing cars silently tagging along...

Also, in my opinion, O gauge is the smallest scale where the sounds can have enough volume and fidelity to make it worth the effort.  Yes, speakers have gotten better over time and to each his own, but I think it takes about a 50mm/2" speaker which just fits into O and will never fit in HO or S.

Cool little module Stan, maybe we can have inertial navigation and know exactly where on the layout we are.

GRJ, as you are obviously handy with your hands. If you miniaturize this it might be a viable solution for sound triggering. I made the assumption that you already own a drill press...

That's a little large for our purposes, what is that out of?  Looks like the units in early nuclear submarines.   I'm betting the modern inertial nav units are a lot smaller, I've seen aircraft models that are a fraction of that size.

GJR, it was a tongue-in-cheek post. It is a Sperry Inertial Navigation unit, origin unknown. Like Maxwell Smart was known to say "Sorry about that Chief"

Dear Carl (Moonman)

"Wouldn't an MTH boxcar be the easiest? Screw attachment. The E O T truck would work as a swap out for a power lead." I like you idea, I think this would work best. I was think of using a Lionel flat car 6400 series and a box car that I have in my inventory. But with all the mod that have to be done to the Lionel cars it might be cheaper to purchase second hand MTH cars. I am looking for the box car and flat car to be in black color any suggest?

Dear Stan2005 and GRJ

If you two could give on line course in the wonderful world of electronic you gentleman would make a fortune. Both of you gentlemen never stop to amaze with me with what you can come up with next. This is one of the reason I am glad I joined this forum,

Dear John

My younger son models in HO (DC only no DCC) and has a small layout that I built him.  The price of the Train Tech out my price range and I think your design is better. I probably will in the not distant future use your and Stan's design in my younger son layout but not his year. Too many project to complete and the honey do list is growing again.

I would agree that John and Stan have a lot of knowledge between them.  As for a course, it's all out there already, for free.  tutorials on the use of every module imaginable, and how to connect them to micro-controllers, PIC's, and computers abound on youTube, as well as introductions to electronic components and theory.  Even if you don't want to get hands on with electronics, I'd recommend watching some of the better done introduction to electronics videos out there.  Having even a limited understanding will be an asset.  

"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it." - Pablo Picasso

Kris,

I don't know the rolling stock well enough. It's easy enough to search the website and scroll though photos of products.

I don't know of many rr's that had black box cars. I have seen black flats and hoppers.

I am loading out to work on the layout restoration project, so I will try a few things later.

I have my victim, it's a Lionel scale car.  I have some Lionel collector trucks, so I just swapped trucks.  It's sitting on the bench now, I'm starting the installation.  Should be on the rails soon.

Lots of sources as mentioned for some basic electronics training.  I started tinkering with electronics when I was around 10 years old, for the first years it was mostly disassembly, but by the time I got to my teens, I could actually build and fix stuff.  I say this to illustrate that the knowledge didn't come quickly, it took years and later more years of school to have a solid base to work with. Most of my working life I was also either doing software or hardware design, and many times a combination of both.

It's like any other skill, it takes time and dedication to learn it, as well as constant use.  I find after I haven't used something like the PCB layout package for a few months, I have to retrain myself on some of the things I learned and forgot.

Best advice I can give is to look at some of the basic electronics sites, and then try a few things.  Sure you'll get smoke occasionally, but you'll also find out that it's not that hard to do some of the simple electronic projects.