Santa Fe Passenger FT's and screened vents in FT body doors.

Howard;

Interesting...I did not know that they were on all the side doors.  Did know that vents were added to the side doors on the steam generator end of the B units.

Allan

I would think that photos of the area on the prototype units would be in order here.

Allan - I'm glad you posted that. Santa Fe actually did it both ways.  I don't have the road numbers that correspond to which method was applied to which road number. (I went back and checked the article.) 

The pictures in the article:

B unit 168B (after renumbering to 415A). All Doors

A-B-B-A 161 All Doors

There are more pictures but it would only be a guess due to the angle of the shots.

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Another interesting point made in the article is that the FT's drew assignments on the Super Chief, El Capitan, and Chief along with the Chicago to Texas trains.  Many assumed they were only used on secondary passenger trains.

They were returned to freight service three A-B-B-A sets in 1948, seven in 1950 and one in December 1951.

I would think that photos of the area on the prototype units would be in order here.

I agree, but I assume there are copyright issues with the photos in the article.  

I'm hoping that the SFRH&MS will post the article to their website.

Aren't there EMD builder photos out there, that would show what you are referring to? Or were modifications made by Santa Fe shops involved in this?

Boy, seems like good broadside shots of Santa Fe FT's, especially the passenger units, are scarcer than hen's teeth...

Been through all my Santa Fe references and can't find a good shot.  The only thing I could dig up was this screen capture from a Green Frog video, and it doesn't really answer the question on way or the other.

Rusty

I just went through my EMC FT reference book. The only FT Passenger units pictured none had any vents on the doors. One of the units back in freight colors appeared to have a vent on the side number boards though.

Pretty bad when we have to struggle to find places where our models are deficient, and still cannot prove it.

It's funny, I can find plenty of photos of the FTs in freight colors including former passenger units. But very few in warbonnet. On one of the photos I found someone had commented that the vents were added to increase cooling for crossing the desert areas of the southwest. Another detail that seems to get missed is the fifth port hole on the FTB units that were equip with cab controls.

Or were modifications made by Santa Fe shops involved in this?

They did not have the vents on freight units.  They were only on passenger units and I assume Santa Fe added the vents.  There was only one unit delivered as a passenger unit from EMD (#167 L-A-B-C), Santa Fe converted the rest.

Pretty bad when we have to struggle to find places where our models are deficient, and still cannot prove it.

Personally, I don't consider the Sunset and Key FT's deficient.  This info wasn't published until the current issue of the Warbonnet.  If one wanted to model the detail, it is the same thing that has been done by individuals for as long as there has been scale modelers, and this one seems fairly simple.

and still cannot prove it.

I don't quite understand that assertion.  The proof is published in "The Official Magazine of the Santa Fe Railway Historical & Modeling Society".  Just because I don't want to break copyright laws doesn't mean that what I've posted isn't correct.

I found this internet photo.  You can see the vents in the rear side door of the A unit and the 1st B unit.  It looks like a dark shadow but it is the vent.  There were two vents in each door.

That helps. I saw that on a couple. But it looked like the doors was open.  Could it be that only some units had this and others didn't. Could this have been a local mod for safety reason to prevent debris from entering the open doors.   Why don't you provide a link to the articles and pics. That would help a great deal.

Here is 168  repainted in freight colors 1962 No vent on door

#160 converted freight unit   No vents on doors  

Sunset/3rd Rail

Why don't you provide a link to the articles and pics. That would help a great deal.

I would love to but it is a quarterly publication sent in the mail, so there is no link.

Here's a link to order the issue:  http://www.atsfrr.com/store/war-Vol21-15.htm

Howard;

Thanks for providing motivation to spend some time in the library.  Found clear pictures of the door vents on A and B units in Worley's Iron Horses of the Santa Fe, Priest's Santa Fe Diesel and McCall's Early Diesel Daze.  Just scratched the surface but it is enjoyable to revisit books with a new purpose.

Allan

Thanks Alan.  I am in the process of moving and my books and the computer with a lot of photos is unavailable, so I'm very limited in what I can access.  I would like to see more pictures to possibly modify my Sunset passenger FT's.

I'm curious what happened to the door vents after the FT's were placed back in freight service.

There are other details pictured that might be worthy of modeling like the stay bolts holding the baffles on the B unit fuel tanks (which were converted to hold water).

So again, if anyone undertakes any of the additional modifications, I wish they would post something about their project.

Thanks for the link. I will purchase later today.

I have many Santa Fe books and I just went and looked through them. All the SF passengers FTs have those vents, I just never paid attention to it before the recent Warbonnet issue came out.

Just from this book alone:

Very true. The vast majority of folks who talk to me about Sunset and Golden Gate products at shows are positive or offer constructive criticism and suggestions which are always welcomed.

However, there are a consistent few (the same few) who seem to take delight in pointing out flaws. For the most part these naysayers do not own any Sunset/GGD products possibly because they cannot tolerate the flaws, or, more probably, they just like to feel superior in their knowledge.

Pretty bad when we have to struggle to find places where our models are deficient, and still cannot prove it.

Very true. The vast majority of folks who talk to me about Sunset and Golden Gate products at shows are positive or offer constructive criticism and suggestions which are always welcomed.

 

However, there are a consistent few (the same few) who seem to take delight in pointing out flaws. For the most part these naysayers do not own any Sunset/GGD products possibly because they cannot tolerate the flaws, or, more probably, they just like to feel superior in their knowledge.

bob2 - By now you can see for yourself that the vents I posted about existed. For a guy that has your modeling skills to complain about a discussion on modifying a model to more closely reflect the prototype is absurd.

rheil - You are also off.  I helped Jonathan with both the Santa Fe FT's and the Santa Fe F7's, ask him.  BTW - Scott and I have a good relationship.  Perhaps because I have purchased nearly everything Santa Fe that Sunset has produced, and two in most cases, four 37 SC sets, 3 ATSF 2-10-2's, etc.  Now that I've moved to 2 rail, I also own a number of Key diesels including an A-B-B-A set of Santa Fe FT's.

So who's wrong?  The poster that flew off the handle or the posters that were interested in prototype modeling?

Lastly, you both missed the point.  This thread is about modeling, not complaining.  I would think that Gary Schrader will most likely add the vents to his Santa Fe FT's (assuming he owns them).  

I should also say that you two remind me of the Lionel an MTH guys when someone points out a mistake, which BTW many times results in an improved product. 

Howard,

I am quite confused by your comments about me. Can you explain what you mean about me reminding you of the Lionel and MTH guys?

In the past your posts have always seemed to be quite well thought out, but I do not understand your last paragraph about me. If you read my post I said I was very receptive to constructive criticism about Sunset/GGD products and yet you are implying that I am the opposite by your wording. Help me out here, and I am sorry I made any comments that obviously offended you.

And, yes, I also have a few Sunset and GGD products.

Bob, It seemed to me that you were agreeing with bob2's implication that I had a problem "struggling to find places where our models are deficient".  If I misunderstood your post, I apologize. Unfortunately, I am under quite a bit of stress right now, so perhaps I wasn't thinking clearly.  

BTW, I have always respected you.

The only FT models to have achieved perfection thus far are the PRR version.

Simon

I was joking.  I guess now beneath my opinions I shall have to add "in jest."

Let me see if I can explain: here we are with darn near perfect models, and we are struggling to find documentation of flaws?  

We have an interesting 2- rail guy on another forum who is about to cut up a PSC passenger car, but will not do so if he can just find a photo of a real passenger car that matches his model.  Is that the opposite,or the same?

i guess it isn't all that funny.  Keep looking for those photos.

I was joking.  I guess now beneath my opinions I shall have to add "in jest."

I wish I realized that originally, it was funny.  It probably would have caught me that way if I had a few beers.

Like I said in my reply to rheil, I've been under stress and guess I took it too seriously.

I also respect you and always enjoy seeing the work you've done.

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Laidoffsick - I don't think I have that book, but those pictures are show the way I would like to model the vents.  Your pictures show the vents with the covers on and it looks nicer than with the covers removed.  Thanks for posting.

Howard,

Hope you don't stress too much over your move. I have missed your posts while you were absent from the Forum. Always very "inforumative."

Bob

I believe the Key FTs represented the as built from GM, any variations were custom requested I doubt Gary and Co. would have missed that shop mod and it would have been included if requested I think labeling that omission as a mistake was an ill chosen choice of words, although it was rephrased after a few posts. JMO

Another good example of this were the New Haven EP-5 electrics. They originally had 2 small vents per side that were quickly changed to much larger screened vents.

I could easily be just plain dumb.  I've been accused of worse.  Speaking of half cocked, I am NOT bashing the importers.  The only point of this article was to point out a obvious detail that Santa Fe modelers might want to include on their recently purchased FT's.

I am delighted with both my Key and Sunset FT's and have posted that many time on the forum.  It may be you my be going off half cocked.

However, the only as built Santa Fe passenger FT was 167LABC, and I would think that the need for the door vents hadn't been established.  That is conjecture on my part.  Delivered in February of 1945, it was tested and used for 14 months before Santa Fe converted the first freight FT for passenger service.  I would assume that in that 14 month period, the need for the vents had been determined.

All the other passenger FT's were delivered by EMD as freight units and converted to passenger units by Santa Fe.

That would mean that all other passenger units which would have been conversions by Santa Fe, would have come out of the shops with the door vents. This is documented by the just out of conversion photos of FT 158LABC.

A lot of passion here.  I understand some of it - I have a problem with our track gauge, and a semi-serious problem with open bellies on steam locomotive boilers - but I just fix those things and press on.  I do not let it affect my enjoyment of life.

But I am missing why this is such a serious issue, especially if, as indicated above, you are not totally sure this is an error.  

but I just fix those things and press on.  

That was the point of the thread.  I asked in the first post, "Has anyone attempted to model this?"

Then I get attacked for bringing this up.  It's especially ironic that Bill Blasden criticizes me for wanting to add parts missed on the original when this is his business.

But I am missing why this is such a serious issue, especially if, as indicated above, you are not totally sure this is an error.  

Bob is that another joke?

There are two issues here.  The real discussion is about adding the vents to Santa Fe passenger FT side doors.  There is no question that these vents existed on all Santa Fe passenger FT's.

The other issue is people attacking me for bring this up and calling me names.  Most of those comments are not very well thought out and totally off topic.  

BTW - I have received a number of emails supporting my effort.  Some people appreciate the information needed to make something more accurate.

Sunset/3rd Rail ATSF Passenger FTs were delivered with the 5th port hole in the B units because that was part of the production order from EMD. To say that Scott did not listen to people is a lot of bull. If the vents were mentioned and it was economically feasible, I am sure Scott would have done it.   Nobody mentioned the vents as far as I could tell and to me this would be a simple mod you can do. As for the other roads. They all performed mods to the FTs that have not been incorporated into model production units.  CBQ and others had removed the fuel tank skirts, added cooling systems, reconfigured the number boards and classification lights. MTH FTs are as delivered, 3rd Rail/Sunset are a mixture GN/DRG(F3 style number boards). Far as I can tell Keys did the same thing . The manufactures gave us the basics of what we wanted.  Its good that you brought up the vents, but at the same time don't trash the manufactures for not incorporating them into the production units. Make the mods yourself to represent the era your modeling and stop complaining.  Marker( Howard) I will note that you did not seam to have any issues at the time in the below thread..

Here is link to OGR Thread. https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/p...re-3rd-rail-atsf-fts

Doug

Marker: I am glad you brought up the vents issue as I did not know this. Very educational! It has been stated that the models were made in "as delivered" and not with the changes for the longer running period of the life of the locomotive. Yes, there are forum people who rag on others and never let it go, I should know. The discussion is now about the vents in the doors, so let’s keep it there, and stop the relentless ragging others to make yourself feel good. Now let’s see who has the first negative comments about me instead of talking about the vents in the door.

My question would be how long after delivery were the vent changes made? I'd be interested in knowing.

Stephen

 To say that Scott did not listen to people is a lot of bull. If the vents were mentioned and it was economically feasible, I am sure Scott would have done it.   Nobody mentioned the vents as far as I could tell and to me this would be a simple mod you can do.

Where do you see me saying that Scott did not listen to people?  Please pull out the quote from what I've posted.

Secondly, I helped 3rd Rail exchanging a number of emails with Jonathan Peiffer regarding Santa Fe details.  Perhaps my most important contribution was regarding the yellow or cream color of the cat whisker FT's.  At the time I was unaware of the vents, so could blame me for that.

I don't see why you come back and trying to infer that I am complaining about the models.  I am talking about adding modeling a detail.   Have you read my posts? 

My question would be how long after delivery were the vent changes made? I'd be interested in knowing.

The photos show #158LABC at Barstow, freshly converted for passenger service in June 1946, which is to say it never ran as a passenger unit without the vents.  So far that is the best I can find.

158 is the road number on my passenger FT and I will be adding the vents at some point.

Bill I know you do passenger cars.  The point is that you make parts to improve and upgrade existing product.  

Regarding the vents I think the covered vent could easily be replicated using Plastruct.

Perhaps this would be a good project for you to make a master and cast a mold

and offer these your self in a resin product. should cost you about 300.00 for the matrerials to do it.

I've always wanted to try something like that but I doubt I will ever get around to it.