Scale GG1 Comparison - GG1s live on!

Want to see some wild PRR GG-1s...

Berlinerwerke-GG1 Apocrypha Page 1

Totally awesome!




JohnnyJT
South Philly

quote:

Originally posted by NickyBigBoy:
So I continued to press my point, and after a page-worth of evidence, logic, and reasoning, I finally proved that I was right the whole time. And then someone posted this:

quote:

Our new senior in high school sure does think himself the expert over the old guys who have been collecting since before his parents were born.

I tried to help some people out, only to be insulted on a rather personal level. What a sad state of affairs

I don't know who said that to you but they showed less maturity than a "senior in high school."

My "EMD powered" Williams scale GG1 heading into an Atlas O-72 curve:



I say "EMD powered" because someone installed a QSI sound board in it; the QSI horn does sound rather close to a real GG1 horn, though. The pans are not installed as I was just test running this ebay acquisition and left them in the box.

EDIT: Change track radius to 0-54; the outer loop is O-72.

Second EDIT: I checked with the layout's owner and the G is running on O-72.

In this day and age - an EMD repower would probably be the cheapest way to get a G running again

Waiting for my J Williams G. Got baby one for $149!

Has anyone done a detailed comparison of the Lionel JLC GG1 to the Koh's brass model? I have heard that the Lionel model holds its own against the Koh's but I have never seen one.

That would be a tough comparison, since a "standard" Kohs model was $2800 where as the "collector" version was only $4000. I would be surprised if any modeler on the OGR forum actually had a Kohs GG1 model.

Mr. Sethian should be able to share a comparison. How about it, John?

The G had the quill drive. Is/was there an advantage to this vs a DC or AC traction motor?

Bought the Wlliams scale silver "Congo" GG-1 back in September, finally put it on the Xmas layout the other day (042 track). Runs like a charm and I can live with the diesel horn. This Topic helped me decide to buy the Williams - Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by DominicMazoch:
The G had the quill drive. Is/was there an advantage to this vs a DC or AC traction motor?

The term “Quill Drive”, describes the method of gearing traction motors, whether AC or DC, to the driving axels. The GG1s had two 385 horsepower AC traction motors geared via a quill drive on each of the six driving axels. The quill arrangement provided a means to isolate the traction motor armatures from the vibration and pounding of the driving axels when traversing rail joints, crossings, turnout frogs etc.

Here’s a link to a short description and photos of the GG1s quill drive.

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/quill.shtml

the Lionel JLC GG1 is probably the best production version offered to date. It has details no other manufacturer's verisons have offered. for starters the wheelesets are accurate, the only other good wheelset made besides the Kohs is the Alexander/Duddy version.
I have owned a Williams, Weaver and MTH copy of the scale GG1, none of them compare to the JLC Lionel for getting closest to prototype fidelity in a reasonbly priced model

now, when talking about the Kohs, the ones I saw were horrid runners. just what I want for my $3000 or $4000.

The new Sunset welded GG1 should set a new standard for a G, and one actually made in 2 rail, no conversions needed!

BTW, the other imported GG1 was a NJ Custom Brass.

quote:

Originally posted by PRR Man:
the Lionel JLC GG1 is probably the best production version offered to date. It has details no other manufacturer's verisons have offered. for starters the wheelesets are accurate, the only other good wheelset made besides the Kohs is the Alexander/Duddy version.
I have owned a Williams, Weaver and MTH copy of the scale GG1, none of them compare to the JLC Lionel for getting closest to prototype fidelity in a reasonbly priced model

now, when talking about the Kohs, the ones I saw were horrid runners. just what I want for my $3000 or $4000.

The new Sunset welded GG1 should set a new standard for a G, and one actually made in 2 rail, no conversions needed!

BTW, the other imported GG1 was a NJ Custom Brass.

Chris,

You won't get any argument from me! I'm looking forward to a DGLE 4877

Best,

But you could run the 4877 with NJT cars.....in TUSCAN........

quote:

the Lionel JLC GG1 is probably the best production version offered to date. It has details no other manufacturer's verisons have offered. for starters the wheelesets are accurate, the only other good wheelset made besides the Kohs is the Alexander/Duddy version.
I have owned a Williams, Weaver and MTH copy of the scale GG1, none of them compare to the JLC Lionel for getting closest to prototype fidelity in a reasonbly priced model

I have to agree with that.. The underside of those others remind me of a stretched out PW Lionel unit and the others all suffer the same hideous wide gap between the frame and shell.
Underside detail accuracy & sound make it well worth the extra cost.
Joe

Jonathan,

I'm thinking of buying a scale Pennsy GG-1 to pull a set of scale Madisons buy I can't recall if a GG-1 ever was the motive power for madisons. Any thoughts?

GG1s pulled more heavyweight cars (like the P70 coaches) than lightweight cars throughout the late 1930s, 1940s and 1950s. Most of the head end cars were the heavyweight types. When passenger traffic began to decline in the 1960s and beyond, lightweight cars were more prevalent.

JLC Issue :

The following links will take you to photos of GG1s pulling heavyweight equipment.

http://photoswest.org/cgi-bin/imager?00014471

http://photoswest.org/cgi-bin/imager?00014477

http://www.davesrailpix.com/prr/htm/bvpr237.htm

Here's an image of one of my MTH G's pulling a GGD P70 just like it would have throughout the 40's, 50's and 60's. It's a repost from an earlier page, but a fun image anyway.

[/QUOTE]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for your fast responses. Merry Christmas!

John - A Merry Christmas to you too!

For the part of the PRR I model, GG1's pulled heavyweight coaches consistently more than they pulled streamlined cars even into PC. Some of those coaches were still in service as late as 1983 and were still pulled by GG1's from NYC to South Amboy, NJ.

For mainline operations, heavyweight cars remained in mixed consists of streamline and heavyweights in to the early 60's too. The D78 Diners and various Pullman sleeper configurations ran on the secondary name trains fairly consistently.

Enjoy!

Rumor has it there is a 4901 headed to ...MARYLAND...Thanks for the advice, Jonathan!!!

But that 4899 does not have ENOUGH rivets to count!

Question:

During the Pre-War "scale" era for Lionel, was there any consideration of a scale G?

quote:

Originally posted by DominicMazoch:
Question:

During the Pre-War "scale" era for Lionel, was there any consideration of a scale G?

That would be a great question to get answered. Didn't the "traditional" sized GG1 come out post war? If so, I wonder why so long given the engine was in service since the mid-late 30's.

GG1's seem to find their way into the funniest places. I was watching the other day (for the umpteenth time) "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow" and there's a quick clip of a GG1 during one of Sky Captain's flights through New York City. It seemed to be running on some sort of high line. I know, I know, not realistic, but nor is a P-40 Warhawk flying through the streets of NYC AND turning around street corners! Never mind the third rail!

Lionel's G came out in 1947. It was not the first GG1 model to be built. There are HO examples dating to the late 30's of which I have a few. There were also possibly some O 2R versions. I've seen a few on the bay in the past that look like they could qualify as being earlier, but that's just based on the photos - no facts to back that up!

quote:

The underside of those others remind me of a stretched out PW Lionel unit and the others all suffer the same hideous wide gap between the frame and shell.

I have the recently produced Williams Scale GG1 and there is no noticeable gap between the shell and the drive train. If fact if it were any closer it would rub going around curves. For $250 or less you can't beat it.

I am thinking about getting one of the JLC Tuscan 5 striped GG1's and am wondering about what type of passenger cars to get to run with it besides the congressionals. What would you GG1 experts suggest? Since the JLC requires 072 min curves, length is not an limitation. Would the GGD P70s be an option with a tuscan engine?

Thanks!

While Tuscan G's were originally assigned to the then new Congressional sets, they would have pulled anything in the system until they got repainted into Single Stripe DGLE starting in the mid 50's and likely all repainted by the end of the 50's.

It was PRR practice to simply assign whatever motor was available not much long after the initial PR had been done on the sets.

P70's would be appropriate as well as any of the Tuscan Streamlined cars. You could also look at the several off road trains that ran through the NYC such as the Silver Meteor.

Good luck with that G. It is a good one!

Thanks Jonathan for the insight--you guys sure know alot about these engines! Not to seem too uninformed, but what is the DGLE? Still learning about all of the acronyms.

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Joguager:
Thanks Jonathan for the insight--you guys sure know alot about these engines! Not to seem too uninformed, but what is the DGLE? Still learning about all of the acronyms.

Thanks

Deluxe Gold Locomotive Enamel I have also seen it spelled Dulux.

Actually DGLE is the acronym for:

Dark Green Locomotive Enamel - it is also called Brunswick Green and the exact color is one of much debate. Suffice it to say that VERY dark green or nearly black was the likely delivered color, but road wear made the locos appear a little lighter after time.

Dulux was the Dupont color for the yellow stripes that replaced the gold leaf striping beginning in 1952.

Dupont provided all the paint for the GG1's and had the colors in their catalogs until 2003. They still keep the actual formulas pretty well secret to this day.

Try asking someone what color Tuscan Red should be and there is a fine debate for you!

Sorry about strange acronyms. It took me the longest time to figure out SPF (Slobbering Pennsy Freak).

SPF could mean Southern Pacific Fan!

So, were any G's painted in the single stripe in tuscan?

DGLE I have heard was 99 parts black, 1 part green!

The 4907 and 4916 wore the Tuscan single stripe scheme. Both were later repainted in standard DGLE.

Bob

Now, why the silver with red stripe GG's.

And that looks like the SAL E-units. Any relationship?

The Williams may not be the nicest but it seems to be the working man's special. How does it run/pull?

Woody - You are correct that Weaver was the first modern O mostly scale offering and all other G's are based on that tooling to one extent or another outside of the JLC G, which was based on the Kohs tooling.

The first Weaver offerings, the 4816 in 5 stripe DGLE and the 4876 in 5 stripe Tuscan were offered around 1990 I believe. Neither had flywheels. The next offerings in DGLE, Tuscan and Silver single stripe came later along with the Amtrak model and have flywheel drives and plug in QSI Proto Sound options. That would place them into at least 1995 of so. There is an alleged PC Weaver, but I haven't seen one myself.

MTH offered the scale GG1 with the Tuscan 4876 in 1997. I'm not sure on the Williams, but it did come out in the late 90's.

I believe MTH and Williams are relative copies because parts do interchange more or less freely and they all are consistently nearly 2' short of scale.

Lionel, using the excellent Kohs model as their base has the only truly scale modern offering and it is noticeable when a JLC is placed next to other modern scale offerings. The first run of those was 2004 I think? I got mine in 2005, but I think that was the second run.

I've seen the Alexander kits and the Baldwin models come up from time to time on Ebay. One day my collection will include those too. They are a little crude by today's standards, but certainly worthy models to any complete collection of G's.

Ted - the Williams scale version is a fine puller. It does not have the traction of the cast competition, but a little weight would solve that. Internally it is nearly identical to the competition with simpler electronics. Mine work just fine in pulling a reasonable set of passenger cars, but I do double head them for longer freight consists.

Dominic - yes, you are correct in that the three Silver GG1's were painted to originally pull through corridor trains from the SAL and other roads that were using Budd stainless equipment. The silver paint wore quickly as did the Tuscan single stripe G's and likely did not last more than 3-4 years at most in that color. The two single stripe Tuscan G's were pretty faded prior to repaints.

An interesting side note is that two of those silver G's were among the last in service for NJT, the 4880 and the 4872. Sadly both have been scrapped along with the other silver 4866. The 4872 was in private ownership until 1993 before it got the torch.

Edited for correct information regarding date of Tuscan Single Stripe G's