Years ago the only O Scale GG1 was produced by 'The House of Dudy' (or Duddy) until Weaver introduced a beautiful brass scale model in several PRR schemes. None came with TMCC however. 1st issue had no flywheels but the 2nd run did. Then MTH produced a die-cast model with PS2 and Williams  introduced theirs in heavy plastic and conventional control. The Weaver, MTH, and Williams all had a very similar chassis with die-cast parts. Lionel had a slightly longer (1/4"?) TMCC model with spoked wheels that is reported to be true scale in length in their JLC Series. Arguably the best detailed. Jonathan (GG1 authority) ran an excellent thread on all of these some years ago with many photos.

I am going from memory here and may not have them in proper order...

@HiramO  Try looking for Weaver Brass GG1's, Nice models, the some have TMCC but check the original boxes for details.  I really like the single stripe I recently picked up recently. There is a forum member who posted one for sale in November and also Trainz has several.  Often around $300 sometimes less.   (see my correction post below - no TMCC)

Weren’t the Lionel JLC versions of the GG1 scale??? I have two and they definitely had TMCC.

Oh yes Paul, definitely scale and possibly the most accurate

Lionel did the scale GG1 with TMCC in their JLC line back around 2005-2007 in a few different paint schemes.  They're really nice models with motorized pantographs, all die-cast construction and of course the RS5 sound system.  The truck frames on some of them are plagued by zinc rot though so you do need to be careful about that when buying as parts are unavailable to replace them.  Henning's Trains offered a small run of cast plastic replacements to get some of the door stop locomotives back up and running, but I don't believe they have any more available and I'm not sure if they plan on trying for another run.

Lionel did bring them back in the Vision Line range with Legacy as well more recently including a more accurate model of the first GG1 4800 which was the only one with riveted construction.  The Legacy models also had LED's in the pantograph pickups that simulated electrical arcing on the catenary wire.  Aside from that I believe they were pretty similar feature wise aside from the basic Legacy features that TMCC locomotives lacked.  I would also hope that they wouldn't have the same worries with zinc rot that the TMCC models come with.

Here's my silver JLC model in action.  I also have the green single strip version, but it's currently plagued by electrical gremlins that I've yet to sort out.

The only scale GG-1's made with TMCC were Lionel and Sunset/3rd Rail. Lionel made six JLC versions with TMCC and another six with Legacy. Sunset/3rd Rail made approximately six all in brass with TMCC. They are more rare than hen's teeth. The Lionel versions sometimes have zinc pest problems. Beware. I have versions of Lionel JLC and Legacy. All are fabulous runners. The Lionel Legacy versions are the most accurate I have seen in die cast. The Sunset/3rd Rail versions are gorgeous but are finicky runners. The Lionel JLC versions  when found at about $600 without zinc pest are worth every penny. Kohs, of course, has the most accurate model but I do not know if it has command control.

@SantaFe158 posted:

Henning's Trains offered a small run of cast plastic replacements to get some of the door stop locomotives back up and running, but I don't believe they have any more available and I'm not sure if they plan on trying for another run.

There is another run planned, but I don't know what the timing will be.

I have a JLC GG1 and one of the Williams scale GG1's that I upgraded to TMCC.  The good thing about the Williams is the GG1 is not a super detail-rich locomotive, so the Williams is not a bad looking example.

Well, I stand corrected. Do not bother to look for them coming with TMCC.

I guess I was thinking about converting the Weaver to ERR and confused that with it actually having TMCC.  Now I'll have to pull my recent Weaver steamer's and see which ones have TMCC. At least I was right about 1/4 scale. Regardless it is a nice looking model and I posted a short video of it running earlier in the year. 

Did someone mention scale GG1s?   For TMCC only the Lionel JLC version came factory equipped with it.  3 rail 3rd Rail GG1s were conventional.  That was one of the last locomotives released by 3rd rail without command control.

Weaver brass 4866

Weaver 4876

A collection of Weaver, Williams and the Lionel JLC 4925 in this photo. The road numbers are incorrect for the Tuscan Single Stripe Weaver - It should be 4907 or 4916 and the Williams 4980 is a completely fictional road number for the GG1.

This photo includes some MTH models.

Sunset/3rd Rail Bicentennial 4800.

2 rail Sunset brass version.

Lionel Vision Line 4877 with Legacy.

2 rail Sunset/3rd Rail 4800 in its second paint scheme.

A small collection of GG1s.

Weaver in Penn Central.

Out of this collection, only the Sunset/3rd Rail and Lionel versions are truly scale length.  Weaver, Williams, and MTH are all about 1/2" short of scale. 

Good luck in your search!

You’re showing off again, Jonathan But you’ve gotta love your amazing collection of GG1’s (except for that Conrail Bicentennial thing)!!! I only have two JLC TMCC versions (Tuscan single stripe with the large keystone - love the large keystone, Brunswick Green five stripe), one of the VisionLine Legacy version (Tuscan five stripe), one post-war Tuscan 2360 (currently being restored by Len Carparelli), and an MPC 8753 (Tuscan five stripe). I think I need a couple more examples

@GG1 4877 posted:

Did someone mention scale GG1s?

WOW!

Nice collection!

At the risk of sounding repetative, the first year of JLC versions seem to have been spared the zinc pest problem.  The RS5 in them is quite nice but the VL versions from 2016 are superb sounding.

Bruce

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

WOW!

Nice collection!

Yeah……second that wow!…..I know who to call now if I get a GG1 to come across my plate for detail work,…….that’s a superb collection!!…..

Pat

@GG1 4877 posted:

Did someone mention scale GG1s? ...

That's ALMOST a clinically unhealthy obsession, Jonathan.   Friggn' cool!!

I bought the Vision Line riveted 4800. Some folks suggested that I save my money and instead find a good JLC GG1. But, the heart wants, what the heart wants.

@CNJ Jim posted:

That's ALMOST a clinically unhealthy obsession, Jonathan.   Friggn' cool!!

I bought the Vision Line riveted 4800. Some folks suggested that I save my money and instead find a good JLC GG1. But, the heart wants, what the heart wants.

Sorry, Jim… there is absolutely NOTHING unhealthy with a GG1obsession

@GG1 4877 posted:

Did someone mention scale GG1s?

Amazing collection Jonathan!

Here’s a question… Which is your favorite?

I love that bicentennial #4800!

@rplst8 posted:

Amazing collection Jonathan!

Here’s a question… Which is your favorite?

That's a tough one!  It is kind of asking "which is your favorite child?".

However, if I had to choose I would probably the Sunset ones as that is what got me started on my part-time work with that company almost 14 years ago now.  I have a personal connection to the 4800 riveted version and yes, I did count all the rivets at one time.   I still have prints of the PRR record drawings for that locomotive that dimension the rivets to the nearest 1/32".

A close second would be this one due to its rarity - an HO George Stock kit from 1946 in the original box.  Not many of these around in this condition.  Article is one I wrote to my TCA Division newsletter back around 2005.

For anyone interested, this is the thread I started in 2008 looking at the 3 rail scale GG1s on the market at the time.  A lot of the links are gone, but still enough there to keep it interesting.

Scouting Dad - what is the minimum operating radius for your Weaver GG1?

@HiramO posted:

I'm wondering who might have made a scale model, 3 rail with tmcc, of the GG1 locomotive. I know Williams made a conventional model, suspect 3rd Rail might have made one. Does anyone know?

I believe these are scale with full sound. Lmao

My friend came down to the yard and took these pictures before I pull these engines out onto the road. There is nothing like running a GG 1 to speed the only issue they had is they tend to buck on a fast takeoff. They also had a terrible Blindspot the long snout basically closed off the entire left side of the train. After they added security grading on the window it got worse. But when a G was that speed, there was nothing like it smooth as silk and it just wanted to run.

@Michael Hokkanen  Michael I do not know the minimum although it ran fine on my 072 Dia curves.  The traction tires were missing and I did not have time to order them before I had to tear down the layout. It pulled reasonably without the tires, can't imagine what it will pull with them on, must be a beast. The sound module was also not responding well, so that was disconnected. Haven't had it on a layout since. 

@c.sam posted:

Years ago the only O Scale GG1 was produced by 'The House of Dudy' (or Duddy) ...snip...

E. P. Alexander came out with a scale cast bronze G probably before the war. I have a 1946 Walthers catalog that lists it as being back in production. Like most of the early models, it had/has some warts but overall it is a very nice unit. I do prefer them over any of the "current" crop. Here is one of mine:

Alexander (later Baldwin Model Locomotive Works) also made this wonderful New Haven EP-3, one of several that I have:

EDIT: That black wire around the body was there just to hold the removeable roof on during shipping, I just have not gotten around to remove it; another attack of almost-terminal laziness.

Interesting note: of the five or six of these (G and EP) that I have, only two share the same drive!

One wart shared by a lot of the Gs is the wrong nose shape, most are a semi-circle, the prototype was an ellipse.

Not really pertinent to this discussion but I also have a Max Gray/US Hobbies boxcab PRR P5 and three Duddy E44s; one of them may surrender its drive to two-rail my Williams E33.

@ScoutingDad posted:

@Michael Hokkanen  Michael I do not know the minimum although it ran fine on my 072 Dia curves.  The traction tires were missing and I did not have time to order them before I had to tear down the layout. It pulled reasonably without the tires, can't imagine what it will pull with them on, must be a beast. The sound module was also not responding well, so that was disconnected. Haven't had it on a layout since.

I too have only run mine on 072 curves.  I suspect they may negotiate an 063 curve, but I have not tried.  The Williams version will navigate fine through an 042 curve, but it does overhang quite a bit.

Eliot Scher reached out to me as he is also an avid collector of GG1s and noted that the 3rd Rail 3 rail versions do indeed have TMCC factory installed.  Goes to show what I know.  I have not run my Conrail one in some time which is the 3 rail one and has never been run under command.   My two 2 rail 3rd Rail G's do not have any command installed.

@ThatGuy posted:

I believe these are scale with full sound. Lmao

My friend came down to the yard and took these pictures before I pull these engines out onto the road. There is nothing like running a GG 1 to speed the only issue they had is they tend to buck on a fast takeoff. They also had a terrible Blindspot the long snout basically closed off the entire left side of the train. After they added security grading on the window it got worse. But when a G was that speed, there was nothing like it smooth as silk and it just wanted to run.

ThatGuy.  That's a rare view of Princeton Junction, in that it is taken from the north platform of the spur going into Princeton Township.  You may not be aware that I have scene of Princeton Junction on my (2 rail) layout, ca 1956.  Complete with four track main, the spur and the Dinky (as it was called back then).  Here is one photo.

The GG1 is an MTH I converted to 2 rail.

This is a Kohs I outfitted with PS3

@GG1 4877 posted:

Eliot Scher reached out to me as he is also an avid collector of GG1s and noted that the 3rd Rail 3 rail versions do indeed have TMCC factory installed.  Goes to show what I know.  I have not run my Conrail one in some time which is the 3 rail one and has never been run under command.   My two 2 rail 3rd Rail G's do not have any command installed.

I can also confirm that the 3Rd Rail GG1 in 3 rail were equipped with TMCC. My PRR ‘Old Rivets’ #4800 has TMCC and Railsounds 4.

Very well done model of the GG1!

@John Sethian posted:

ThatGuy.  That's a rare view of Princeton Junction, in that it is taken from the north platform of the spur going into Princeton Township.  You may not be aware that I have scene of Princeton Junction on my (2 rail) layout, ca 1956.  Complete with four track main, the spur and the Dinky (as it was called back then).  Here is one photo.

The GG1 is an MTH I converted to 2 rail.

This is a Kohs I outfitted with PS3

Your layout is as close as it gets, I ran many years through that station. Well done

All I need is a catenary— my GG1’s pull power from the air—

@ThatGuy posted:

Your layout is as close as it gets, I ran many years through that station. Well done

Thanks!  Good words from a Real Railroader are worth a lot!

@20centuryhudson posted:

All I need is a catenary— my GG1’s pull power from the air—

I had thought about putting one up over one of my tracks, but man-o-man, what a lot of work. Mine would be for looks only.

I’d be happy with non operational

@Michael Hokkanen posted:

I had thought about putting one up over one of my tracks, but man-o-man, what a lot of work. Mine would be for looks only.

I would buy a non operating catenary system for my GG1s if it was sturdy enough and looked better than MTH’s.  I have too many other things I want to do than spend time putting together a great system like John has.  I think someone with a good 3D printer could have a good side business selling to the millions of us with GG1s.

@Michael Hokkanen posted:

I had thought about putting one up over one of my tracks, but man-o-man, what a lot of work. Mine would be for looks only.

@CAPPilot posted:

I would buy a non operating catenary system for my GG1s if it was sturdy enough and looked better than MTH’s.  I have too many other things I want to do than spend time putting together a great system like John has.  I think someone with a good 3D printer could have a good side business selling to the millions of us with GG1s.

On my railroad, I just pretend the GG1s were equipped for third rail operation and in the division I modeled, catenaries weren't practical due to all the mining equipment that has to cross the tracks.

I futzed with a 3rd Rail GG1 for a pal and cannot recommend seeking them out. They did ship with factory TMCC/ERR and a really bad early ERR sound board.

The big problem with the 3rd Rail was the floppy brass frame. After doing everything short of blowtorching it, the shell never seemed to sit right on it and the power trucks teeter-tottered longitudinally, causing the traction-tired wheelsets to lift. It was pretty gutless as a puller because of the power truck not sitting right. Maybe the PO tried to do some work to it and bent it all up, who knows. I would be inclined to fabricated a new frame for it.

I agree the frame was flexible when it should not have been. I had a 3 rail fellow bring his to me at a show complaining that it wouldn't pull much.  I bent his frame by hand and pulled out the pilot truck springs which were much too strong. His pulled and ran better after that. Not great - just better, I model in 2 rail so I can't speak about the TMCC .

When we were designing the GG1 Scott and I disagreed about having only 8 drivers powered. I wanted the locomotive to have all 12 drivers powered and to pull much better. Scott wanted the GG1 to list at $1000 rather than be more expensive. I have an 18 car Congressional Limited by GGD that needs LOTS of power to pull. I pull it with a Custom Brass GG1 with lots of weight added.

R. Heil -  Sunset Models / 3rd Rail /Golden Gate Depot

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

I futzed with a 3rd Rail GG1 for a pal and cannot recommend seeking them out. They did ship with factory TMCC/ERR and a really bad early ERR sound board.

The big problem with the 3rd Rail was the floppy brass frame. After doing everything short of blowtorching it, the shell never seemed to sit right on it and the power trucks teeter-tottered longitudinally, causing the traction-tired wheelsets to lift. It was pretty gutless as a puller because of the power truck not sitting right. Maybe the PO tried to do some work to it and bent it all up, who knows. I would be inclined to fabricated a new frame for it.

The Sunset GG1s are a mechanical and electrical disaster.   Flexing frames, poor weight distribution over the drivers,  weak electrical pickups,  flexing belt drives,  unstable motor mounts, weak motors, undue mechanical stress on the driver bearings, etc. etc. etc

This is most unfortunate, as they are beautiful models.

I have four of them (in 2rail). I have completely rebuit and engineered one, including adding  a chain drive to the inner axles:

I made many other changes.  Here is how I rebuilt the motor support

It is now a very smooth and strong pulling locomotive

I rebuilt the others in varying degrees.  Run in a pair they are also smooth and strong pulling locomotives

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

I futzed with a 3rd Rail GG1 for a pal and cannot recommend seeking them out. They did ship with factory TMCC/ERR and a really bad early ERR sound board.

The big problem with the 3rd Rail was the floppy brass frame. After doing everything short of blowtorching it, the shell never seemed to sit right on it and the power trucks teeter-tottered longitudinally, causing the traction-tired wheelsets to lift. It was pretty gutless as a puller because of the power truck not sitting right. Maybe the PO tried to do some work to it and bent it all up, who knows. I would be inclined to fabricated a new frame for it.

@John Sethian posted:

The Sunset GG1s are a mechanical and electrical disaster.   Flexing frames, poor weight distribution over the drivers,  weak electrical pickups,  flexing belt drives,  unstable motor mounts, weak motors, undue mechanical stress on the driver bearings, etc. etc. etc

This is most unfortunate, as they are beautiful models.

I have four of them (in 2rail). I have completely rebuit and engineered one, including adding  a chain drive to the inner axles:

I made many other changes.  Here is how I rebuilt the motor support

I don't know if they are done the same way, but I have a P5a modified from 3rd rail. It was a "weak-ish" puller when I first got it. After some inspection, I determined that the axle bearings that are spring loaded were getting stuck in the frame. I removed the bottom caps and removed all of the bearings and springs. Then I ground down the brass where they were sticking and lubed them up. After that, it would sit on the rails nicely and became a stump puller (for it's weight and size). I may add some lead sheeting to the inside of the shell later when I put command control in it.

My P5a is 3-rail and it also has all axles powered from the factory, and you all may have ruled out the above. However, it's something to check, especially if the axles are sprung the same way.

@rplst8 posted:

I don't know if they are done the same way, but I have a P5a modified from 3rd rail. It was a "weak-ish" puller when I first got it. After some inspection, I determined that the axle bearings that are spring loaded were getting stuck in the frame. I removed the bottom caps and removed all of the bearings and springs. Then I ground down the brass where they were sticking and lubed them up. After that, it would sit on the rails nicely and became a stump puller (for it's weight and size). I may add some lead sheeting to the inside of the shell later when I put command control in it.

My P5a is 3-rail and it also has all axles powered from the factory, and you all may have ruled out the above. However, it's something to check, especially if the axles are sprung the same way.

The Sunset GG1s had many, many issues.   The biggest problem from a pulling stand point was all the weight as supplied by the factory was in the center of the chassis, which caused the inner-most pair of wheels on each truck to push down on the rails, and the outer most pair of wheels to lift up.  Of course, the inner most wheels were the undriven ones.   I took the springs out from the undriven axles, and that helped a little.  A bigger help was to soften the springs under the four wheel trucks and redistributing the weight into the nose.  At that point it ran fine on straight track, even with a 1.7% grade. But I have 64" radius curve at the top of my grade, and the only thing that prevented wheel slip was driving those inner axles.  You may not need to do that last step if you have traction tires

I could write a 20 page article on what I had to do to the Sunset GG1s.  Even the Kohs GG1 with all its flaws (see my article in OST) was easier